(Scroll down for 06/24/11 update) Canada’s official party of opposition has voted unanimously to oppose tax-exempt charity status for ex-gay groups such as Exodus Global Alliance.
The federal New Democratic Party, better known simply as the NDP, adopted the resolution at its convention in Vancouver, BC, last weekend. Delegate Michael McLaughlin introduced it thus:
Delegates, an investigation published in September 2010 by [the] LGBT news blog Slap Upside The Head revealed that Exodus Global Alliance, an ex-gay organisation, enjoys registered charity status with the Canada Revenue Agency. Ex-gay organisations claim that gay, lesbian, and bisexual people can be made straight. They take advantage of LGB people, often in vulnerable family situations or at grips with depression and self-hatred, and browbeat them—saying that LGB people never live happy lives, that we are unhealthy and unwhole, and that we never experience love and that the only hope lies in their therapies. […] We see that they are selling snake oil with benefits given to them by the Canada Revenue Agency at present.
Exodus Global Alliance is based in Toronto, ON, and proclaims that “change is possible for the homosexual through the transforming power of Jesus Christ.” It is partnered with but organizationally separate from the US-based Exodus International, whose president, Alan Chambers, sits on the board of both.
The current government of Canada is Conservative and enjoys widespread religious support. In May this year, the NDP all but wiped out the more centrist Liberal Party to become the official opposition for the first time in its 50-year history.
Update: Here is the full text of the NDP resolution to deny ex-gay organizations charity status:
6-12-11 Resolution on Ex-Gay Associations
Submitted by the NDP Federal LGBT Committee, Quebec SectionBe it resolved that the New Democratic Party call on the Government to immediately remove any charitable status currently enjoyed by “ex-gay” organizations and to see to it that according to this status to such organizations in future be prohibited.
Yeah!!
While I’m not optimistic the official opposition can do much, it is a step in a healthy direction.
Exodus Global does not deserve charitable status and hopefully political attention and public complaints will move Rev Can to revoke status.
The Revenue Canada T3010 states Exodus Global programs purposes are as follows:
EDUCATING AND TRAINING IN DEALING WITH ABUSE AND FAMILY ISSUES. DEVELOPING MINISTRIES TO HELP FAMILIES AND INDIVIDUALS IN PAIN. TEACHING CHURCH GROUPS, SCHOOLS AND YOUTH. HELPING AND TEACHING AT CONFERENCES.
The 2009 return states that 70% of the revenue goes to missionary organizations and evangelism.
The 2009 filing says revenue/assets is about 89 thousand, and they forked out 55 thousand for their ‘charitable programs..
Revenue is way down from 2007/2008. In 2008 they had 100 thousand more than 2009.
Go Canada. It’s great to see the spirit of tough love beat down the false religious god of guilt and condemnation hard at work through werewolves in sheep’s clothing. Nothing is more telling than a strong reduction of cash flow each year. The stake to the heart of this vampiristic suck-off of our emotional energy is dead center. We can all thank each other for tapping far beyond this local god, into the always available one true spiritual God of love truth and honesty. It’s why we are and will prevail over snakes and their lies. God-eh love that.
hmmmm freedom of speech has been thwarted by a bunch of hedonistic, homosexual, immoral, and discusting fools
Hardly a free speech issue, @Darren , unless you believe freedom of speech means anyone who wants to say anything should be exempt from paying taxes.
I wonder if Michael McLaughlin or for that matter those who just “read” what other people say about supposed ex-gay ministries actually know the truth to what they do?
It’s clear that Michael has no idea what Exodus Global Alliance does as to his quotes in this article, and he is literally playing into the minds of those who aren’t doing their own research, rather those who believe what they read!
Dave, this is a free speech issue. If the NDP is looking to force the CRA to remove charitable status’ to those who are supplying ministry to a certain percentage of the population, then I would assume more people can petition for other ministries to not have charitable status’ either. How about LGBT organizations that do not promote true diversity within the context of those who do may struggle with same sex attraction, who also believe that they don’t have to be, or want to be? It is their choice…not the government, not activists, not culture, but rather theirs. They have every right to their decision and that is what true diversity is.
What the LGBT community has fought about in regards to diversity, is now being turned, and they are doing the same thing to others, that they themselves fought for. Ironic!
Kenny…..it only takes a small amount of research to discover how damaging the ministries such as Exodus are. Listen to those who have been through their programmes…their track record for ‘cure’ is abissmal.
Charitable status is a thorny issue for many….there are good reasons to review the whole issue of charitable status for all who currently qualify.
I wrote a letter of complaint to Ottawa some time ago, complaining, as an ordinary gay citizen; about the tax exempt status of Exodus Global, & assumed that many others had done so also. I know that government can move very slowly much of the time, but as for discontinuing tax exempt status, it can be accomplished very quickly. Also, diversity can never include encouraging someone to be ashamed of who they are & attempt not to be so through some absurd therapy & prayer. Looking to the Bible for answers to anything scientific is the intellectual equivalent of studying ancient textbooks of Alchemy to find out how to turn fish fertilizer into gold.
Jacquie…I didn’t make reference to the “cure” rate…or even the supposed track record for a “cure”. That isn’t what the ministry is about. It only takes a small amount of research to discover how that! How do we get to a place of respect for those who decide to live differently and not just embrace what culture would have them embrace.
It is good to review charitable status for all organizations but to write letters to complain or go on a witch hunt to shut down organizations that you have little or no understanding to what they do is not diverse. We don’t become a diverse community when you do not give people the right to decide on how they want to live their lives.
Bart…Have you spoken to anyone from Exodus Global Alliance? Have you spoken to anyone that has been helped by their ministry or others? We can read stories that feed our own prejudice which can quickly turn into something far from loving and kind.
Having come to a place where I recognized that being gay was not my identity, and I wasn’t ashamed when I decided to seek out answers to why I would feel this way in the first place. Exodus is a referral ministry and I sought out support through a ministry that was congruent to my faith. That was my decision. I find it very strange that for those who call themselves and seek to have the world around become a diverse community, that you would find it in yourself to rob people such as myself who want to find support. You may not understand or agree with people’s understanding of faith and theology, but that is part of being in a diverse world, where we have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. I preface this to say that just as we have that freedom, that freedom doesn’t give us the right to bad mouth anyone, speak hate, or treat people unfairly.
What I am highly concerned with is the issue that we are now turning the tables…we are taking away people’s freedom and people’s right to receive counsel and ministry…by their own free will.
Maybe that in an of itself is hard to understand and I guess for those who maybe cannot see both sides, or choose to just stay on one side of the fence..
I’d also like to remind people that the religious right have never restricted themselves to opposition based on biblical verses (religious beliefs). They have consistently used lies, slander, defamation & innuendo in pursuit of their agenda. In my opinion, we should accept no compromises, as the history of the last couple of decades demonstrates their use of the old adage, ‘give them an inch & they’ll take miles & miles’. There is a difference, of course, in that Canada doesn’t interpret free speech as broadly as America. You cannot use rhetoric that is false, and/or likely to expose an individual or group to hatred, discrimination or violence. The same holds true for the UK. One of the reasons, also, that the religious right in Canada dropped the issue of SSM, was because the legislation for equality received royal assent immediately, which is the final step in passing legislation here. We are a constitutional monarchy. Our head of state, Queen Elizabeth II, has no real power, but laws passed require her final approval through the Governor General (federal), or Lieutenant Governors (provincial). Once that happens, there’s a tendency to respect the notion that she said OK, even though Buckingham Palace would not necessarily have a clue what was passed…. God Save all our queens!
In saying you accept no compromise, means you refuse to love, refuse to show grace and refuse to believe in a diverse community.
In walking in dialogue with others that may disagree with you, yet able to live together with one another in harmony…that is diversity.
Does the so called religious right have an agenda? Can we then say everyone has an agenda…such as TWO, EGW? If they didn’t, they wouldn’t need to be so hateful and disrespectful to others belief systems. I am a Christian, I am someone who decided not to be gay (not because I was unhappy), rather I had an encounter with God that changed me, and I began to seek out why I struggle, not just with same gender issues, but with many other issues. I came to see that we are all imperfect people, trying to do life. For myself, I uncovered factors that played a part in my gender confusion.
In my decision, I remain friends with those in the gay and lesbian community that will talk to me. It hasn’t been me that has stopped the relationship…rather those in the LGBT community that choose to believe…because I wanted to seek support, that I am somehow all of a sudden homophobic!! It really doesn’t make sense.
I long for the day when we can allow people to make decisions on their own…rather than try to force them to be someone they are not, or decide not to be. Part of that will be to allow ministries such as Global Alliance the opportunity to continue to minister to those who seek out their ministry for support.
Kenny,
I hear your sincere angst about this situation, however, Exodus makes blanket statements about all gay people, that they are broken really str8, and need to pray the gay away. That is inciteful and you will always get put in your place so to speak when lies are offending others.
If they were to say they were confused and trying to figure things out w/o misrepresenting an entire section of the population that ISN’T confused whatsoever about their sexuality, I would surely be more sympathetic to your outcry. However, Exodus has severe boundary issues.
Until that happens, which it won’t, I’m afraid you will have to take the dark arrows of retribution from the gay community, a war you and yours created.
Trust me, none of us want to be here, we have better things to do with our lives. But as long as there is i.e. Exodus grafitti smeared across the face of sexual authenticity , we will sreadfastly steward sexual sovereigty back on course to the best of our ability.
Hey David
Thanks for hearing my angst. Just as I feel that angst, I hear yours. I recognize the fact that for year…YEARS, those who have struggled with same gender or those who identified themselves as LGBT have had it ROUGH! Seriously, having walked that out in my own life, I know what it is like.
I also recognize truth and just as you say Exodus makes blanket statements about all gay people (which in all honesty has not been my case when interacting with Exodus or a member ministry).
Having recognized brokenness in myself…I honestly believe that we are all to some degree broken. None of us has our shit together, and if we are honest, we are to some degree dealing with some issue in our life (call that a refining or restorative process that all humans go through)…I haven’t met a perfect person yet!
Now to turn the table…just as you have shared your angst with regard to Exodus…just as you talk about Exodus and ex gay ministries…there are blanket statements about all people who are confused and are trying to figure things out w/o misrepresenting an entire section of the population yet they are misrepresented. They are often deemed homophobic, or that they are lying to themselves, aren’t being true to themselves. Just as you say Exodus has severe boundary issues, such do organizations such as EGW and TWO, who make broad sweeping statements about those seeking ministry from organizations such as Exodus and other ministries.
Are the dark arrows a good thing? To bring retribution to anyone…is that good, productive, merciful, kind? Or and eye for an eye…is that better? Who begins to make amends? Who begins to extend grace?
What happens to those such as myself…who desire to seek out support within their faith community? The issue here is one of freedom of religion…and freedom of speech…and a freedom to be able to seek out support for something in your life…that you are confused about.
Have you been to an Exodus Freedom Conference? Have you ever talked to someone who is from a member ministry? Have you talked to someone from Exodus yourself?
Hey Kenny,
Thanks for your reply. I haven’t been physically to an Exodus conference but with Alan Chamber’s profiled on TV shows, Youtube vids, and citing the Exodus home page along with a myriad of ex-ex-gays on the internet proclaiming their damaging experiences with Exodus, I can say my comments are accurate regarding blanket statements made by Exodus inciting the LGBT community at large.
I think there may be a misinterpretation of religious freedom here. I have no issues with religious freedom or your desire to interact with religion and sexual laws of your own accord. But religious freedom gets intermixed with the right to declare religious war on those that are not buying it’s goods and services. That is the problem. It seems you may have “diversity” to include the religious right waging war and slinging arrows on other diverse groups as they see fit. They don’t have that right, though they can assume what they please. Diversity is held in the context that all respect each others differences. Exodus does not do this. They see their differences and impose them on others. That is not diversity, that is religious control and domination, not needed by most of society.
EGW and TWO simply point out the irrationality i.e. Exodus promotes. The truth is many that have been involved in Exodus, have come away realizing they were truly homophobic of their own nature, and turned to resolve THAT instead of trying to change their wiring which has proven impossible. Even the president of Exodus Alan Chambers is afraid of his homosexual thoughts and prays to God to keep them at bay “every day”. See Kenny, from my point of view, that IS homophobia at it’s finest. And to try and get rid of it is as irrational as it is impossibie. And the reason people say he is “lying to himself” about being gay, is that at the very least, it’s obvious he MAY be bisexual. That coupled with the fact he took 9 months to consummate his marriage, well, does it really surprise you to see the masses eyes roll? So these blanket statements you attribute to EGW and TWO, though we can all get quite heated, I see as actually nothing more than rational observation, not superstitious blanket statement accusations based on irrational deduction. I see them as more a correction device demanding the truth be told instead of lies, a truly noble mature action aimed at protecting SOME confused individuals headed down a rosy path to potential destruction. It may feel like an arrow to you, but it really is a realignment of rational thought that most prefer to adhere to. Does this make sense?
Please understand I have no idea what your sexual pathology is in detail, so much of this may not apply. But from what you are saying, it sounds as though you are like most “ex-gays” with perpetuating “gay wiring” thoughts etc, regardless of your dissimilar pursuits. I have yet to hear of an “ex-gay” that doesn’t have homosexual attraction. Have you erased all homosexual thinking beyond what Alan deals with?
By no means do I have any judgements on how you live your life and the sexual path you take. I can’t even imagine the angst that sexual orientation confusion creates in you, as I have none. And in all my years I have never met anyone who has this affliction. But I surely have compassion for your situation.
So I hope you understand from this model i.e. Exodus provides via Alan Chambers, it is a bit difficult to take any “ex-gay” seriously, as there is no documented evidence of complete shift in orientation. And if being gay and marrying a woman is your plight, heave ho. But to most, that is irrational thought ala mode, and can have serious destructive outcomes as statistically documented. The best I can say about this whole situation is that God loves you no matter what your sexual orientation, or he would not have made us gay, and Alan would not be having homosexual attractions if God made him straight. This is how I honor God, by not questioning what he made and living and loving myself, and that includes my God given sexual orientation.
If you have any “cures” to this volatile situation of irrational religious domination pirouetting over rational thought, I would be more than happy to entertain any hypothesis you care to provide. Albeit from my point of view, correcting lies is the first step to resolution. Would you you not agree?
Hey David
Thanks for the lengthy response. I will try to be to the point, but I think I may go on a few tangents and so this could be long.
I think for anyone making statements and voicing an opinion on a certain person or organization to actually be at an event or talk with them in person is beneficial. I understand the inability to do that in terms of location or funds, but it is beneficial, as journalism is known to be on the verge of sensationalism. There are great editors who can make anyone sound worse than they are. In regards to Exodus or Alan Chambers, I have never heard inaccurate comments made by Exodus…maybe this was before my involvement with the ministry at large (I have been to several conferences and have spoken directly with Alan and countless others from member ministries). What I have heard is honest communication and grace, mercy and love. Never forcing people to change (um…that isn’t anyone’s job!), rather pointing people to Jesus…who does love us all.
I do interact with my theology and my faith and in congruency with sexual standards (boundaries) that I believe have been set for us by God. This is fundamentally my individual understanding for my life. If asked the question, do I believe that homosexuality it a sin, in congruence with my faith, I would have to say yes. But does that make me hateful? Hardly. It makes me have an opinion, which is never to be used against another person, to look at them as lesser than or worse off than I. As Paul writes, “I am the worst sinner!”
Maybe Exodus proclaimed things differently prior to my involvement, and if they did I am sure they recognized it and changed their ways, as I have not heard things spoken from any Exodus staff or Alan that would get me to believe that they are liars, that they hate people and are forcing them to change. I have heard countless times from Alan, that Exodus isn’t around to make people change who don’t want to. They are around to help those who are desiring to walk away from a gay identity, and are seeking support in that. (Exodus is a referral ministry, connecting people to local ministries)
Diversity is in fact allowing people that chance to work that out for them. If they come to a place of recognizing that that isn’t for them and they decide to embrace a LGBT identity, that is great for them. No one is forcing anyone. I have heard nothing but respect from Exodus in regards to this. But let’s again turn the table. When we force ministries to stop ministering because people assume they are trying to change people when in reality, they are pointing people to Jesus (who by the way is all about change, Jesus doesn’t keep us bound, rather frees us to walk in the fullness of who we are), then we are taking away a freedom for thousands of people. I bring us back to the original comments that are based on the NDP’s decision to put forth a resolution that is far from fair. That is the problem. No one has the right, to take away someone’s right to ministry or help with issues that they are facing. That is the problem. EGW and TWO does this. They see their differences and impose them on others. That is not diversity, that is cultural control and domination, not needed by most of society.
You can view trying to resolve homosexual thoughts, or for someone to pray to God to keep homosexual thoughts at bay as homophobic, but that would be contrary to that persons faith and their belief in God, which doesn’t make them homophobic. If someone views something as sin…do they keep doing it…even if it is pleasurable? On the contrary, they begin to say no to the sin and they do that honestly talking about their struggle. I applaud Alan’s honesty in his walk with his struggle. For him that is his journey. Not yours, nor mine. If his walk means to pray, good for him. Who are we to judge him for that?
For me, what I hear from those who “tried to change” and it didn’t work, is that they did it because they tried to change. (do you get that?) It wasn’t other people trying to change them, rather they had this view that they needed to change and they believed change looked a certain way (free of struggle…or attraction to the same gender) and when that never happened to their liking or expectation, they got angry and instead of looking at their motives, needed to blame someone. So why not blame the ministry. Each of us as an adult has the free will to do as we please. It’s way easier to find a scapegoat than to recognize the truth to our behaviour.
I have heard the bisexual slant. Why is it so hard to recognize someone else’s journey and not put your own take on it. We have to figure out a solution…if he is lying…then he must be bisexual. Who cares if it took him 9 months to consummate his marriage. REALLY? First, we really don’t even need to know that, and who cares? That is his journey with him and his wife. Yet, even to say that is a judgement statement…and a blanket statement, that can extend to all who may have been once gay identified and who are now married. I know countless couples, who were once gay identified who are now married and have “normal” marriages…dealing with normal relational and sexual stuff.
So you see to state that someone makes blanket statements you also need to recognize that EGW and TWO also makes then makes them as well. It may be to you rational observation but for someone who has walked the journey and has a different experience, I reads as blanket statements because their opinion is very different.
David, to be honest, when I read a lot of what some people (and I will say some, because not everyone write with bias or untruth) say about Exodus or other ministries, I hear their own disappointments and their own hurt, because something didn’t happen like they wished. It may feel like an arrow to you or to others to believe that someone can actually be transformed by the power of Jesus, yet it happens. To be transformed doesn’t mean absence of struggle but it does mean thought patterns can change, our actions change, but the feelings may still be there…or they may not be. I totally believe in honesty with anyone seeking ministry. Never did I get the impression that I would walk a rosy path, where life would be grand and all my same sex attraction feelings would go away. On the contrary, I began to see a God who was big enough to meet me at every turn in the path. A good Father who lovingly walked with me on my journey.
My sexual pathology is complex…as I believe everyone’s is. To each their own. I was once gay identified. I struggled with my same sex attraction for 20 years prior to coming out at age 30. I lived 8 years gay identified (experience much happiness and love from my ex partner), until we broke up. In my quest to start again, to move ahead, I met God, who audibly spoke to me giving me the choice to leave the gay identity. I did. I began journeying out and began looking at environmental and behaviour factors that played a part in my same sex attraction and began to come to understand how much God loved me, that I had not lived one moment without His love. I am married to a woman, who in her journey left a 14 year lesbian relationship. Not out of shame or guilt, rather she knew for herself that this is what God was asking of her. We don’t characterize ourselves as ex gay, nor does our walking this out erase our memories of experiences and thoughts and lovers and life prior to this. That is a part of our human bodies. We walk that out with respect to one another. With much love and tenderness. To have a feeling or thought doesn’t define me. It is just that…a feeling or thought, nor does it mean I am afraid of it or scared of it. On the contrary, I holistically call it what it is, and recognize that I am the same as everyone else on the planet, imperfect, dealing with my own stuff and bringing that stuff to the cross of Christ, who bore it all.
I am not in angst with my sexual orientation. But who defines that? The world, EGW, TWO, Exodus? I am a new creation in Christ. I live life to please him. People aren’t expected to get it or understand it all…because they aren’t God. I don’t view homosexuality as an idol, nor do I view heterosexuality as an idol. I am a child of God, who is created in His image, to bear his image, in the fullness of my relationship with my wife (the complimentarity of the masculine and feminine coming together).
Thank you for your compassion. I love my life. Is it free of issues and things to deal with? Hardly, but my same sex attraction is hardly a liability, rather it is something that brings me to the cross of Christ. I am glad we met…even via these postings…I think to gain perspective of people who are walking this out, it is good to listen to their stories. Hear their journeys.
(so I hope you can take me seriously…even though to many I am labelled ex gay…and I am married to a woman…with no heave ho’s). My life isn’t destructing, and I know countless couples who are not destructing, rather, they are working hard on their marriages, because they love their spouse, and love themselves…and most importantly they love God. Yes, God loves everyone and has the best for each of his creation. For me I honor God by not questioning what he made and living and loving myself and that includes his boundary lines for my God given sexuality.
It has been great to dialogue with you David. Thank you.
Kenney, they’ve said plenty that is inaccurate.
here’s a couple: https://exgaywatch.com/2011/05/randy-thomas-again-fails-to-accurately-address-transgender-issues/
https://exgaywatch.com/2008/06/exodus-alan-chambers-says-gay-orientation-100-developmental/
Emily
thanks for your comment, I have read both articles and it is again interesting to pick and choose what people comment on regarding the articles. I found Randy’s article quite grace filled when it came to his opinion and to his thought on Chaz. (but you’d have to read the whole article to find that out…and to some it would still be an issue, I assume!)
To get back to the original post…I quote something from my last post…
“That is the problem. No one has the right, to take away someone’s right to ministry or help with issues that they are facing. That is the problem. EGW and TWO does this. They see their differences and impose them on others. That is not diversity, that is cultural control and domination, not needed by most of society.”
There is a fundimental flaw in those who oppose ministries that don’t embrace everything they want for themselves, when they themselves don’t even need the ministry. It isn’t taking away their rights, nor opposing them, rather the ministries are serving a purpose to those who seek it out. To address the issue at large, when we begin to lump all ministries under the same umbrella as one we don’t agree with, we begin to inaccurately portray all ministries.
Hey Kenny,
I am appreciative that you feel ok with sharing personal details about your experience. I am still wondering however, why you have never resolved your sexual orientation issues and have ended up putting them in a box of “unnecessary evils”, throwing sin/guilt arrows on yourself and another diverse group that don’t have your homosexual struggle. I don’t get you are a hater, but I do get you are judging naturally occurring gay people, including yourself via judging your homosexuality as a sin. In this sense it would seem you are not accepting your “diversity”, an idea you seem to vehemently uphold, in that you have sought to conform. If gay was wrong in God’s eyes, that would surely be evident to all as is murder rape stealing lying etc. From a distilled perception, “knowing Jesus” does not mean changing our nature or our sexual “identity”. Our “identity” in Christ is love only, not gay or straight body “identity” scenarios. It’s knowing that whatever happens in this world, if you look at it through the eyes of love, you are “saved” from the evil of judgment, which tears one down.
When I was saved in my early 20’s, it was magnificent, as it still is today. And in asking Jesus whether being saved meant changing my sexual orientation, the reply was “why tamper with perfection?” Yes he does have a sense of humor. Not only has that been awesome, He has also “saved” me from some potentially wrong relationships, with men as well as women. So could it be that Jesus accepts nature as intended and God doesn’t since Jesus doesn’t mention homosexuality in the Bible? Biblically it would seem so. So I have to question the writers, the psychics who thought they heard “God’s voice” because if we don’t question, the Bible ends up being a collage of unresolved controversy. We don’t adhere to many of the Leviticus sexual death sins today, not because we are not obedient, but because they were obviously flat out wrong unjust and painful, as is the current homosexual cultural war which time will prove out. So why as a gay male, would you dwell on this one Levitical sexual death sin and discard all the rest? Have you ever been naturally attracted to women while growing up? Were you so devastated by your breakup with your lover of nine years that it was the straw that broke the struggler’s camel’s back? My take is you may have been surrounded by so much homophobia that eventually conformity seemed the only and best option. But I am surely open to hear your replies to the above.
Regarding the tax exempt status: The church was given that status by the government for one reason; to ease the burden on government through helping the needy, the sick poor and hungry of the world. It was never to deploy religious dogma. It was to help the downtrodden meet their basic needs, not by Bentleys and mansions.
The church has strayed terribly from the original focus. The church is now paying off pedohpile cases against preditory priests with the congregation’s money. Eddie Long, a high dollar high profile evangelical minister, just paid out a reported out of court $25 million settlement to boys who accused him of molesting them, to include a gag order, with the congregation’s dollars. Evangelicals are building cathedrals with funds going for internal use only. Ministers in the past have gone to jail for money ethics issues done with “the people’s” dollars. These are things that are totally opposite of a tax exempt status. Ex-gay orgs are not tending to the poor, they are tossing guilt out on society by not accepting gays as natural and trying to “change” them through “the blood of Christ”. We who don’t have “the struggle” just shake our heads no. That is not only the opposite of tax exempt status, it actively hurts society in general, a double faux pas. Because the church has strayed so far, I would have to say I would vote down a tax exempt status for all churches if it ever came to a vote. Do you have another way of seeing this? If so I’d be interested to hear.
Good to hear you are happy and not struggling. That is great. But agreeing with a proposed psychic who may have had a bad day and felt like attacking the natural order of the human sexual template via religious writings, hence hurting others, seems rather untenable. BTW, with this tax exempt issue being in Canada, are you Canadian or American?
You said “REALLY?” about Alan Chambers taking 9 months to consummate his marriage. Here is a Montel Williams interview with Alan from 2007. The perception of Alan and Exodus via this vid is the same today as it was then. In other words any whitewashing Exodus has done since has not changed the interpretation which came off with much “eye-rolling” doubt and dismissal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsYsusY1ALQ
I just opened my Daily Inspiration email on my phone. It says “The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved, it is a reality to be experienced”.
Hi David
I cannot respond in length…it is the long weekend…and am enjoying the great weather we are having here in Canada (yes, I live in Canada).
What I will respond to as per my time factor is the fact that I have come to a resolution regarding my sexual orientation. I have come to view it as holy, a gift to my wife, as I submit my life…every part of it to Jesus.
“I am not in angst with my sexual orientation. But who defines that? The world, EGW, TWO, Exodus? I am a new creation in Christ. I live life to please him. People aren’t expected to get it or understand it all…because they aren’t God. I don’t view homosexuality as an idol, nor do I view heterosexuality as an idol. I am a child of God, who is created in His image, to bear his image, in the fullness of my relationship with my wife (the complimentarity of the masculine and feminine coming together).”
In mentioning that my theological stand is that I view homosexuality as sin, I recognize that each person is sinful, and is in need of a savior, who is Jesus Christ who has come to free us from condemnation, who has in his loving and sacrificial death made us alive with him. My hope is that everyone comes to that place. Regardless of the wounds done to them, the churches mistakes, peoples mistakes, we live in a sinful world where bad things happen. We also have a loving God who saw that and gave meaning by sending his son to die for all of us sinners.
My view on homosexuality is not levitical law, or certain scripture references that we all know. It comes from a conviction within me that has come from my relationship with Jesus. I see gender identity very important as it pertains to the image of God. Who in his likeness created male and female…to be brought into union with one another to manifest His presence here on earth.
That doesn’t give me the right to force my conviction on you…nor your conviction on me, but it gives me the ability to walk my life out with authenticity and a love for others, as Jesus loved me first.
My walking out of a gay identity was not of conformity. If it was I wouldn’t have walked out, nor would I have believed the words God soke to me, and the fundimental truth that I understood at the core of my being, when I heard Him speak.
When I said “REALLY”, I wish we could verbally record my tone. It wasn’t one of unbelief but rather…”come on now…who really cares? Why do people care? Who’s business is it anyway?”
I don’t think those who have been enlightened to the truth of God’s character can get that or even understand it. That is his walk…and his journey with his wife…not ours, not yours, or the world around them.
In regards to the tax laws…as I see it from what you write, you have lumped all churches under the same broad view that you have of ones that have not done a good job at being “the church”. There are many churches which you will never hear about, who feed the hungry, heal the sick, cloth the naked, look after widows and orphans (not just physically but emotionally and spiritually). But to lump them all in one catagory is again, the issue here, but I find fundimentally wrong. Again, the loudest voice makes up for the multitude of those doing great work.
@kennyp
Kenny, while I have not read your mega-comment above (you might want to divide your thoughts into more concise bits for comments, lol), as the editor and long time contributor to XGW (we use those initials traditionally to describe Ex-Gay Watch, so you might want to do that as well to avoid confusion), I would like to respond to a couple of the points in your last comment.
You make an assertion that many ministries are lumped together which you say leads to an inaccurate portrayal of all ministries. There may be some truth to this in some cases, but you do the same in your comments by constantly referring to XGW in tandem with TWO. While I happen to think TWO does a lot of good work getting important concerns into the media, we are not the same entity nor do we follow the same tack. Our audience is far more narrowly defined and, in many cases, still deeply involved in ex-gay issues. That necessitates that we are far more open to questions of faith as it is so intertwined with the ex-gay equation.
Again, let’s drop TWO because I can’t speak for them. How does XGW “take away someone’s right to” anything? We have no money, no infrastructure, no lobbyists, nothing. This is in contrast to Exodus which has actively tried to defeat laws which would do nothing other than to equalize rights for LGBT citizens. They have lobbied to Congress and lent their name to anti-gay efforts all over this country and beyond.
Exodus President Alan Chambers even wrote an article for a local Orlando newspaper to oppose fair housing rights for gays and lesbians which did no more than prevent someone from being denied housing because of their sexual orientation. This is something I have experience myself, and I do not consider Alan’s efforts benign. And they do not simply sit back and “help” those who seek them out. They are an evangelical enterprise, they seek out those whom they may persuade.
What we do is simply keep track of what they are doing, and write about it. We try to point out the problems, the untruths, and the damage others report from their experiences. In short, we keep an eye on them and we allow free civil debate on the accuracy and meaning of what we say. This may irritate them, but a ministry should welcome the spotlight. They have been given a standing invitation to respond at any time, but their response is to claim that to do so would “elevate” our importance or some such nonsense.
I think you should spend more time and at least read over the archives on this site, because what you are saying does not reflect reality. And a discussion of how much damage the Exodus “help” causes would be beyond the scope of this response. Again, read the archives if you are interested.
Kenny, this article is especially telling of Chambers and his “grace-filled” attitude towards us.
@Kenny: You stated:
I hate to say it, but I can’t see much that’s grace-filled about an argument and commentary that is fundamentally based on repeating the standard lies about transpeople that are so often spouted by those who would marginalize us.
Much of what he says is couched in the standard rubric of “but your chromosomes say ” – basically biology is destiny. What he conveniently is overlooking is evidence which strongly suggests that it’s not so clear such as the fact that brain differentiation occurs at a different time in gestation than does genital differentiation.
He makes a lot of the usual (and arguably condescending) comments about loving Chaz etc. etc., but when his foundational statements are rooted in ignorance and misunderstandings about transpeople in the first place, that “grace” comes off as insincere and ill-informed at best.
Randy suffers from a world view which severely restricts his options when considering the world around us. His belief system, which directs that view, is so severe that logical thought and reasoning are held captive, like a fly in amber. If he allowed himself to seriously consider certain options, he would have to question those beliefs. That’s not going to happen, so of course the rest of the world is wrong.
Again, we have gone from talking specifically about one article to now bashing people. (sorry to sound harsh!)
So I too digress…
As you talk about Randy…and as I read your statement I see it being stated right back at those who disagree with Randy or others, who refuse to compromise their faith.
I can read this as follows (I will use XGW instead of Randy)
XGW suffers from a world view with severely restricts his options when considering the world around us. XGW’s belief system, which directs that view, is so severe that logical thought and reasoning are held captive, like a fly in amber. If XGW allowed themselves to seriously consider certain options, they would have to question those beliefs. That’s not going to happen, so of course the rest of the world is wrong.
This states that we all have a right to opinion. You have a right to opinion, Randy has a right to opinion. When we never come to a place of dialogue or respect of that opinion then no one wins. We keep looking for the other to screw up, fail, or fall short and then we jump on them and rip them to shreds. Now, is that what we will just continue to do? Or do we mature and grow up and become respectful and honoring of others differences and life experience.
Just saying…and I’m thinking we probably should let this discussion rest, because really, it isn’t going anywhere, we will just keep saying the same old things, over, and over again, and that my friends, gets tiring and very old!
@Kenny: Randy starts off from a fallacy in his opening arguments. How can I possibly take him seriously regarding his position (such as it is) towards Trans folk? We aren’t just talking about political opinion here, but also whether that opinion is grounded in evidence and fact.
I would claim that he’s starting from a bogus talking point that I’ve heard too many times which disregards entirely not only the narratives of transpeople, but ignores objective evidence which calls the very supposition into question.
It’s not bashing a person, it’s pointing out that what he says starts from a false premise in the first place. In doing so, I call into question the logical coherency of the rest of his argument.
Kennyp said:
You aren’t being harsh, just inaccurate. I’m quite sure Randy does not see his world view or beliefs as a bad thing, but they do severely limit his ability to adapt to new information. That’s simply a fact, which is important to consider when discussing, for instance, why one person can see homosexuality (or anything else which does not track with their idea of what God intended) as a normal variance in sexuality and another sees it as an part of the “Fall” and therefore intricately wrong. No amount of new data will change Randy’s view on that.
By contrast, you refer to XGW as an entity with similar precepts, which is really absurd. First, it isn’t, and second, there is no central authority from antiquity which we take literally as a creed or source of infallible doctrine. There simply is no comparison there; one is opinion based on multiple sources of current understanding (science, social, etc) — all of which adapt to new findings. The other is unyielding and uncompromising.
You seem to see yourself as “the adult in the room” and you wish to portray alternate views on matters of fact as just “differing opinions” of equal merit. This is not so. Not all points of view are equally valid, and particularly in matters of science, must be checked against available facts. Randy’s point of view is based in faith, which by definition is held in spite of facts. I’m not sure one should even want it otherwise, but the end result of his literalistic, fundamentalist view is the inability to adapt to a new understanding of the data. He can pontificate in various new ways on the same views, but that’s essentially it.
Hey Kenny,
Looong holiday weekend here so slow response. It’s also been a “com’in to Jesus” weekend too. Ugh. So I’m wondering since you’re the first person I’ve met that has done this transformation, whether you’d be willing to talk to me and share some info. Here is my email address if your cool w it: davidarclight@gmail.com