Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays (PFOX) has emailed an “action alert” from Mission America to their subscriber list. Recipients are asked to “help keep the activists accountable” by reporting the web site “Prop 8 Maps” to the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) as a hate group.
Subject: Protect Heterosexuals
Help Keep the Activists Accountable: One simple thing you can do
Please do one simple thing to keep rabid homosexual activism accountable.
Go to this page of the Southern Poverty Law Center web site:
https://www.splcenter.org/center/contact.jsp
Send them a complaint about a hate group. In the selection box, click on “Report hate activity in your community.” This should work even if you are not in California. Then just compose a quick message about the following group:
The group is this web site,
This site identifies the physical addresses of the Prop 8 donors–those who contributed to the successful California measure affirming traditional marriage.
Here’s a suggested text for your message:
Please list among your hate groups the organization responsible for the web site, https://www.eightmaps.com/ . This site has made it easy for anyone who wants to physically target a person who contributed funds to support the Proposition 8 marriage initiative. This is a direct incitement to possible violence, and the site needs to be taken down. In addition, please list under your “hate incidents” all the pro-homosexual, anti-marriage violence that occurred following the passage of Prop 8. Right now, there seems to be nothing listed on your site. Please be objective and list ALL types of “hate” incidents.
Thank you.
———
Please pass this along message to as many people as possible.
If the SPLC really monitors hate and incitement to violence, they need to identify these folks as a hate group and also, list the virulent actions of the anti-marriage activists.Mission America
Mission America is one of the more extreme anti-gay “ministries” in the US, founded and led by an equally extreme and anti-gay Linda Harvey. Most recently they have backed the Walk Out on the Day of Silence, but XGW has a record of years worth of behavior that leaves little doubt about their stance on GLBT issues, or the rights of just about anyone who does not share their own particular sect of Christianity. Their home page is titled:
Mission:America – Learn the Truth about Homosexuality, Witchcraft, Changing Christian Church, Radical Feminism, and the Youth Culture
Prop 8 Maps (EightMaps.com) has taken publicly available campaign donation records, in this case concerning those who donated one-hundred dollars or more in support of Proposition 8 in California, and made the information easily searchable on a Google Maps mashup.
As we understand it, posting this information is legal and complies with transparency laws in that state. Mission America and some other pro-Proposition 8 groups believe instead that this is an attempt at intimidation. An attempt to persuade a judge of the latter was unsuccessful.
David — you worry us with such headlines. Without reading any further (like, say, a typical, Mission America reader) we rang our mothers in alarm.
They assured us that they felt safe. As heterosexuals, they felt safe. As Christians, they felt safe. They assured us that the only impact The Homosexual Agenda(c) had had on their lives was now knowing that they must not give gifts of bed linen under 300 count. Whew.
And it was only then that we realised this cry of alarm had come not from you… but from Linda Harveywallbanger. comment embarrassant… pardonnez-nous!
Linda has more than one roo loose in her top paddock, as we’d say.
What was her point again?
Oh yes… wanting to enable people to be anti-gay in private and otherwise pretend they are not anti-gay in public. AKA: The Exodus Inc approach under Alan Chambers et al.
But, we guess, the fact they want to HIDE their anti-gay activities is a sign of progress.
How is posting the names and physical addresses of Prop 8 people different than posting the names and addresses of gay people in Uganda? There is likely more potential for violence to gays in Uganda than Prop 8 supporters in America. But, is it ever right to post physical addresses in any case? This post seems a bit hypocritical in that regard. If you don’t like it happening to people in Uganda, don’t support it in America.
Karen, you will need to state your case for why you believe one thing is the equivalent of the other, rather than ask me to defend a position which I have not taken. The post contains facts, it was not an opinion piece. After that, someone may want to either agree or disagree and state their counter argument.
Karen K,
Prop 8 supporters are pouring money into the political process in California. Good governement reforms in California were put in place to keep people from secretly pouring money into campaigns without the public knowing who was behind the campaign. Names and addresses of those who contributed against Prop 8 are also publicly available.
Being able to put a name and face to those who want to deny their fellow citizens equal rights is a good thing. Also, I am not aware of mob violence or life sentences being meeted out to any Prop 8 supporters. Your analogy is bunk, and I find your attempt to paint the oppressors as victims distasteful at best.
The huge problem with our “Free Speech” arguments in America is we do not differentiate between “Public Speech” which is always available for public review, this technically includes the internet. vs “Private Speech” which is assumed to be between you and close friends. Public speech has always include the risk of public review and public chastisement.
Money was deemed free speech by our friendly SCOTUS, yet it was recognized that money was a unique form of speech since it could be both private and public speech. This was a problem because it then becomes “Super Speech”, speech that influences the public without fear of public reproach. So to prevent such a form of super speech, the donation of money has the string attached that you must declare your donations.
The “outing” of public donations is not a new or novel concept. Drawing maps and assembling the information is done across the political spectrum. Analyst companies make millions compiling the information for mailing lists, marketing and political organizations, our news channels build multipart articles based on the information, “Where are the republican dollars coming from”, “Who gave to Obama”. The “difference” here is that the people involved are not “public speakers” they have never played in this theater before, many where told it was a private donation that was just between them and the party in question. Now they are discovering the truth; Donating $100+ is the same thing as going out and declaring where you stood on the issue. They don’t like the fact that for the first time they are being called on their speech, “No one picked on me when I told my buddies at the social mixer that homos shouldn’t get married, why did that change when I gave $100+ to prop 8?” So now all the organizations that lead them have to rush out and protect them because honestly most people will do or say things privately that they would never endorse publicly and if it becomes common knowledge that donating over $100 to a cause is the same thing as calling in your local radio station with your name address and opinion they will lose a major revenue source.
How is it different then a registry of “gays” in Uganda? First the point of such a registry is so the STATE can target these people for punishment. Second this is a registry maintained by the state to enable punitive actions. Third and by far the most important in this comparison the “gay” registry is an attempt to create a registry of “Private” speech.
Lastly consider that several “Right Minded” organizations compile, maintain and mail out lists of people/companies/political agents who have donated to or spoken out for gay causes.
Karen K
It’s the law in California. These are public records. It was bought in to prevent special interest groups stacking the electoral process. It is a long standing practice that names on the record will be examined and possibly published.
And, as it has turned out, it appears to be a reasonable law in this case. Without it we would not have known that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has lied about its direct and significant involvement, as example.
To even ask the question about how the non-violence directed at those who supported Prop-8 compares to those who are violently attacked in Uganda if they are known as gay or lesbian begs a serious question about yourself and your own morality
Apart from the lack of violence, the publishing of the names of all those who donate to Californian elections occurs under a well-known and long-established law. If you do not want your name published, the solution is an easy one: don’t donate, or don’t donate under your own name. I don’t doubt that some people who donated to defeat Prop 8 have also faced the music on Monday morning, but you are unlikely to hear about them in your Chronologues of the Latter-Day Christian Martyrs published by all the usual suspects.
The publishing of the names of gay men and women in Uganda is vastly different and for a very different purpose. The names were published for one reason, and one reason alone — to incite and enable persecution and violence.
Those named in Uganda had no choice. And the consequences are awful. People don’t just decide to boycott your business, instead a mob arrives and attempts to murder you.
Nobody here is “supporting in America what we don’t want in Uganda”.
Frankly, I think we’d all be happy if Uganda was like California.
At which point will supporters of Exodus — like you — display any understanding of ethics, rather than exhibiting that all you know about are religious rules?
I repeat: we’d all be happy if Uganda was like California. That’s not hypocrisy.
After skimming this post and viewing the site in question, I immediately agreed with the need to expose it for promoting intimidation. It took reading the comments and reading the post more carefully to realize that someone would think otherwise. In my opinion, having public records is one thing; setting up an inverted “witch-hunt” is another.
I agree with Karen. She acknowledges the differences in the situations, yet the analogy is solid and clear.
“I find your attempt to paint the oppressors as victims distasteful at best.” John, while I have sympathy and complete empathy for any real oppression you may have faced, as well as the negative effects Prop 8 had for many people, the fact that Bill Smith donated $100 because he believes that the term “marriage” or institution of “marriage” is meant for a man and a woman does not make Bill Smith “our oppressor.” We all know there are legitimate instances and situations in which gay people are real victims of oppression. We demean those cases and dishonor those people by claiming to be a “victim” or “oppressed” by Sally Jones when she contributes $150 because her belief system does not hold with gay “marriage.”
Unfortunately, some people in our community get the idea that “all’s fair” for us. California was/is well on its way to civil equality for LGBTs. Great strides have been made in our nation to help people understand and agree that we have certain inalienable rights, regardless of their personal beliefs. We make progress, but experience setbacks, sometimes for pushing too far, too fast, or slipping into our own hypocritical behaviors of intimidation and trying to squelch others.
What do we have to stand on if we try to disallow people their own beliefs, or strive to intimidate people for having and fighting for their own beliefs about “marriage”? Although others do not have the right to ignore or eliminate our rights because of their beliefs, for us to turn around and demonize and intimidate and try to deny others the right to their own beliefs and standards would be the height of hypocrisy.
Sure, there are people who are plain out to get us. However, we only set ourselves back by resorting to unprincipled tactics or crying “victim” unnecessarily.
To Grantdale:
“To even ask the question about how the non-violence directed at those who supported Prop-8 compares to those who are violently attacked in Uganda if they are known as gay or lesbian begs a serious question about yourself and your own morality”
Grantdale, for you to talk like this to Karen only gives evidence of your own state of morality. One person says it’s not right to target people for intimidation, and here you come along trying to be intimidating–questioning her morality for God’s sake. Another unwise person pulling down our collective cause by beating on our own people rather than engaging in rational dialogue.
Chris,
I strongly disagree with you. Prop 8 was not about people’s beliefs. Prop 8 was about denying equal protection under the law in California for same sex couples. And I would also say that yes, Bill Smith and Sally Jones are bigots who are trying to deny equal rights to their gay and lesbian fellow citizen. Those citizens who favor equal rights might not want to patronize Bill’s hardware store or Sally’s bakery. After all, why contribute the very money that is being used in statewide campaigns to deny us our rights.
Personal beliefs may be handled however you want in your temple, but when you go to the ballot box to impose your belief on me and take away my rights as a California citizen, then it is no longer about beliefs. It is only about denying me equal rights.
Has any credible organization documented a case of systemized intimidation by the gay community as a result of the Prop 8 map website? I personally don’t have the time, not even if i had enough raw avarice. Sorry, I’m busy trying to live as an example that I can be gay, angry about Prop 8, non-violent and rational all at the same time.
Prop 8 was indeed about discrimination and people’s irrational “yuck” factor. They have the idea that kindergartners will be learning how to have gay sex and get into bathhouses.
Well, my “yuck” factor includes heterosexual sex acts – but I would not be caught dead voting for legislation that criminalized opposite sex coupling. My freedom ends where yours begins.
Chris,
When the people use a ballot initiative to voice their opinion about your “religion” will you continue to support Tyranny of the Majority? Will you still sit back just accept the “will of the people” when your “religion” is outlawed by popular vote? Will you not care who put money into the effort to eradicate your rights?
I can’t imagine it.
The lady wrote: “In addition, please list under your “hate incidents” all the pro-homosexual, anti-marriage violence that occurred following the passage of Prop 8. Right now, there seems to be nothing listed on your site. Please be objective and list ALL types of “hate” incidents.”
I would have to agree with Emily here. I’d love to see a complete list of these alleged incidents– but only with a definitive statement that the perpetrator was gay or for prop. 8 and the alleged incident was directly tied to that. I have read of a few such verifiable incidents, but all of the rest of them were along the line of “someone unknown sent white powder to a Mormon church” or “a pastor in Canada (!!!!!!!) was jailed for speaking against homosexual marriage” or “Margie lost her job because of her $100 donation.”
and of course, there are recorded in stances (one I witnessed near my own home in Oakland) of pro-h8ters threatening other people.
but here’s the meat. I absolutely agree that there were probably a few such incidents– A FEW, out of 10s of thousands of people scattered across hundreds of demonstrations. Nobody demanded Margie’s job. Canada isn’t the US. A few out of 10’s of thousands. And it is completely understandable. We haven’t attacked anyone, just asked for equal treatment under the law. I certainly don’t recall starting a political campaign to make sure my fellow citizens had to conform to my idea of reality. I don’t condone any violence, but I certainly understand it. whe someone declares you their enemy and some sort of sub-species of human being, that might be a reaction.
Let’s just compare that to the threats made against gay people every day. Let’s compare that to the pro-H8 rhetoric– gay people are a threat to marriage, family, faith, children, country, god. Let’s compare that to the spike in hate crimes against gay people recently reported.
John wrote “We demean those cases and dishonor those people by claiming to be a “victim” or “oppressed” by Sally Jones when she contributes $150 because her belief system does not hold with gay “marriage.”
If she is going to claim that this is about her religious belief, then I will have to reply that she is entitled to her religious belief, but why should her religious beliefs determine how the government treats me, especially when that treatment can have no conceivable effect on her or her life or her ability to practice her faith. We have laws at EVERY level of government which say that all people are to be treated equally, than no one can be treated differently in the public sphere because of religious beliefs, yours or mine.
Why is this different? Because it is about the sacred institution of civil marriage? Or is it because it is about gay people and ending this prejudice, whether disguised as religious belief or admitted for what it is.
as a Jew, I can totally reject the Christian story, and this bothers no one but the most rabid fundamentalist. Certainly, no one but said fundie would claim that the government should treat me differently because of this.
But let me say I am gay and reject this tiny, insignificant part of Christian theology, and suddenly, the sky is ready to fall. And you can pass any law you like to “protect” yourself– or marriage– from me.
I wanna hear more from Mission America about the witches.
Californians have a legitimate right to know that Prop 8 was funded to a significant extent by out-of-state, antifamily, religious-rightists. Such truthful knowledge protects democracy from covert corruption; it does not (and has not) led to vigilantism or violence; and any individual acts of vigilantism are readily punished. The same open-records laws expose phony propositions that might be sponsored by enemy governments or domestic terrorists.
Nobody — least of all, Ugandan vigilantes — has a legitimate right to know the home addresses of innocent private civilians whom Exodus’ Don Schmierer, Scott Lively, and Stephen Langa falsely and baselessly accuse of rampant mass sex-molestation. Such false declarations are intended not to inform the public of political facts about legislation or elected officials, but to encourage mob violence and death against entire classes of private civilians. Such vigilantism is not punished in Uganda; it is officially sponsored by a despotic government that is desperate to preserve its authoritarian rule through distraction, scapegoating, and genocide.
There are a few phrases that describe those who cannot tell the difference between the two situations: anti-Christian, and amoral.
Many years ago, when the bigots tried to get the DC gay paper banned from the local public libraries, they obtained the name, address, and phone numbers of all the speakers who spoke at the public hearings against the ban. They then harrassed us frequently by phone. Our names, addresses, and phone numbers were part of the public record, and we knew that going in. The harrassment was illegal, however.
I’d like to know the details of “all the terrible things” happening to those on the public donor lists. And I wonder how many are self-inflicted in an attempt to hurt our side?
What is good for the goose…
If we are going to request substantiation of pro-prop8 claims of harassment (and I think we should before those things are introduced into the discussion), we also have to ask if you have any evidence of anyone “self-inflicting” any “terrible things” before we introduce that idea through a statement posed as a question. If we let that one fly, we are twice removed from anything factual, and that’s not good enough for a reasonable debate.
I thought the post was more useful to illustrate the cooperation between PFOX and Mission America, and how they must be feeling some heat from somewhere to reach out in that kind of desperation. The Prop 8 Maps site is certainly part of the topic, but we need to make clear that those who argue against it (or for it, for that matter) are really discussing California’s campaign finance law and its citizen’s desire to make the process as transparent as possible. It works both ways and has been upheld by the courts.
EightMaps.com is simply making full use of modern media to make those records easier to view. That they are public is the law.
I suspect the heat is coming from Yes on 8/ProtectMarriage.com and its prime sponsors — especially FRC, which founded and appears to control PFOX.
Compare Yes on 8’s main supporters:
Active Christian Media
Alliance Defense Fund, serving as Legal Counsel
American Family Association
Capitol Research Institute
Center for Reclaiming America
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
National Organization for Marriage
Concerned Women for America
Coral Ridge Ministries
Family Leader Network
Family Research Council
Focus on the Family
Foursquare International
Liberty Counsel
Traditional Family Coalition
Traditional Values Coalition
with Mission America’s link list:
https://www.missionamerica.com/links.php
Buffy,
You said to me, “When the people use a ballot initiative to voice their opinion about your “religion” will you continue to support Tyranny of the Majority? Will you still sit back just accept the “will of the people” when your “religion” is outlawed by popular vote?”
Are you sure you meant to address your response to me, because nothing you said applies to me or anything that I’ve said here. Perhaps you didn’t read my comment thoroughly or know which other comments I was responding to.
What is the “religion” you are calling “mine”? Buddhist, Pagan, Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Jewish, Taoist, Mormon, Wiccan? I never once mentioned religion, nor claimed to adhere to any. Not once. (Although you aren’t the only person to attack me along this line.) I said that we don’t have the right to harass or abuse a person (under the guise of victimhood) because of his or her belief that we don’t fit in their image of “marriage” (Trust me, plenty of avowed atheists, agnostics, etc. hold that belief).
I haven’t voiced any support of bigotry or tyranny. I did/do not support Prop 8 nor do I support the people who do. I do not agree with deciding civil liberties by popular vote. I do not support Mission America or oppose public access.
I did have a negative first impression of the 8-map site, and I do have a concern for people’s safety due to some of the over-the-top and/or out-of-control behavior of some in our community. (Yes, I can find evidence of that and so can anyone else. I’ll provide some links in a later post if anyone isn’t able to find it themselves.)
I believe that equality, respect, rational communication, tolerance, and fair treatment go both ways, on both sides, and amongst ourselves. The false accusations in here, along with name calling by some, when another person has a different view, is unproductive.
I live here in CA and our friend Timothy Kincaid and I attended a meeting within El Coyote restaurant to address Marj Christofferson’s contribution to Yes on 8.
That story got a LOT of traction in local media as well as a few articles in conservative journal TownHall by Bret Prelusky.
In the initial heat after Prop. 8’s passages there were loud, although orderly and legal rallies and El Coyote was along the route, and business was compromised temporarily in the immediate aftermath, the business is thriving or at least isn’t suffering so much due to any boycotts, however legal.
But a great deal can swing both ways. Those who were against Prop. 8 ALSO had their contribution information out in the public.
They are not immune, nor disqualified from the same rules of political donation rules as any other group.
And the opposition surely used it to full effect for their side too.
But just like any other claims they usually make, they deceive by omission or exaggeration.
They turn isolated or anecdotal situations or incidents into a widespread, non existent trend.
They can’t say that these political donation disclosures weren’t utilized by their side, and if they have no proof of suffering any actual problems or incidents attributable to it, that’s just too bad.
Gay people can claim a complete breakdown and immeasurable damage done to whatever legal options they tried for THEIR marriages and families. There is tangible evidence of involuntary divorce and legal proceedings enacted against their licenses to marry.
And in all this, the Yes on 8 are backing off their actions doing exactly what they wanted. Complicating gay lives, but having virtually NO IMPACT on the safety, integrity or efficacy of marriage for straight people.
Considering the sad statistics coming out about never married out of wedlock births, divorces without second marriages and divorces or domestic violence due to the economic downturn, it looks like they are less persuasive about marriage for straight people.
Which makes the bitching coming from P-Fox patently laughable for all the good it’s not doing.
We need to protect heterosexuals… from harming themselves with the above plus abortions, adultery, hate-mongering behaviour etc. Look at the age of young girls losing their virginity. They are recruiting children…. O_O
Chris,
Never, ever, never will we equate a widespread, violent government-protected campaign against a defenceless and hated minority with being called a mean poopy face by a lone individual in California.
Let us get this perfectly clear:
Karen K, even while mildly noting the “potential” for violence in Uganda… dared to compare Uganda to California. From that, therefore, she is questioning our legitimacy when raising the environment in Uganda. She was doing that — we guess – to protect the thoroughly disreputable involvement of Exodus with a dangerous anti-gay campaign in Uganda.
We realise American Chirstianists carry a huge chip on their shoulder, but the ‘analogy’ is beyond disgusting. Proposition 8 supporters ARE NOT BEING HUNTED DOWN AND MURDERED in California — even given the fact they can be identified.
It may well frighten Karen K to be called poopy-head in public because she is anti-gay — but for her to even dare compare that to the situation faced by gay men and women in Uganda does indeed rise serious questions about her ‘morality’.
And yours, therefore, I might add.
That’s not name-calling: that’s question raising.
ps: you will indeed need to detail those “links in a later post”. I expect them to show clear examples that are equivalent to the deadly environment in Uganda, or you should apologise. Chris: give us those links. (And please link to authoritative sources.)
Kith,
You said, “Lastly consider that several “Right Minded” organizations compile, maintain and mail out lists of people/companies/political agents who have donated to or spoken out for gay causes.”
Do you think they ever use this information for purposes of intimidation?
John,
You said, “Personal beliefs may be handled however you want in your temple, but when you go to the ballot box to impose your belief on me and take away my rights as a California citizen, then it is no longer about beliefs. It is only about denying me equal rights.”
It’s interesting that you bring “temple” into a dialogue with me. I didn’t say anything about a temple or religion.
We all make decisions and vote based on our personal beliefs. Some people do believe and some people don’t believe that “marriage” is a “right” gay people are entitled to like anyone else. I personally believe that pushing for gay “marriage” is a mistake (no “temple” belief here). You seem to believe that it was wrong for religious people to support or vote for Prop 8 based on their belief that “marriage” is an institution designed for men and women only.
I know of a whole church-load of people outside of California who rallied and donated financial support against Prop 8, based on their Christian beliefs, specifically in what they see as examples set by Jesus. Are you going to demand that those people leave their belief at church and not support us, since it’s based on their religion?
Although I never initiated any discussion about religion, people have responded to me with animosity and a lashing out toward “religion,” in general. I think that is understandable due to the strong stand against gay marriage, domestic partnerships, or all gay people by some religious people or organizations.
It think it’s important, though, that in our frustration we don’t lump every mention of belief or a personal belief system, or even religion, per se, into one big category of evil. Remember, that’s what a great number of straight people (religious or not) do to us.
Chris,
We are all still waiting for those examples. Please produce them.
Until then, stop making claims without evidence.
Who are you?
Chris, when you claim something like this here you must provide the authoritative evidence so others in the discussion can judge the validity for themselves. You have commented twice since making the claim and promising to back it up. Please do so before commenting again. Debating claims as facts without any evidence leads to a bunch of babble. If you want that, look elsewhere.
Emily K,
You said, “I’m busy trying to live as an example that I can be gay, angry about Prop 8, non-violent and rational all at the same time.”
Me, too. Way to go! Now, that makes sense. That’s the kind of example that will help to further our cause.
You also said, “Has any credible organization documented a case of systemized intimidation by the gay community as a result of the Prop 8 map website? I personally don’t have the time, not even if i had enough raw avarice.”
I know what you mean about the time thing. Wow, it’s hard to fit everything in these days.
I’m curious, though. What does “raw avarice” have to do with being informed about whether or not people are setting a negative example for us (and our cause) through violence or irrational behavior? I thought “avarice” had to do with being greedy? Maybe there is a different meaning I’m not familiar with.
It’s just as likely that whoever put that Eightmaps.com had no malicious intentions. However, it’s understandable that someone seeing it might be concerned. Unfortunately, though it may not be systematic, people in our community have acted unwisely towards people on that list. Here’s one example of a business being irrationally targeted that was both gay-friendly and employed numerous gay people.
https://www.latimes.com/news/la-me-lopez14-2008dec14,0,5418682,full.column
Here’s a thorough report in the New York Times about the negative use of information gained through public disclosure that is not condoned or supported by many of those who advocate for open democracy or by civil liberties groups.
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/business/08stream.html?scp=1&sq=anti%20Prop%208%20&st=cse
Avarice aside, this is an issue that the gay community is concerned with.
Chris,
When I used the word “you,” I was referring to a more general you. Perhaps it would be better to use the word “one.”
My use of the word “temple” was very deliberate. Prop 8 was concieved of , sponsored, promoted, financed and directed almost entirely by the mormon church. Their places of worship are known as temples. This is part of their ongoing war against gay people, which they assiduously try to hide at every turn.
With regard to religious beliefs, I just don’t care. When someone tries to deny another equal rights in our society based on race, religion, skin color, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender, handicap, etc, I do not give them the least quarter when they try to justify their hate by citing their religion. It wasn’t legitimate in the justification of slavery, Jim Crow laws, housing and job discriminations against Irish, Italians and Jews, or the denial of women to have the right to own property, vote or divorce their husbands. If they are demanding one set of rights and priviledges for themselves while denying those rights and priviledges to others, they are bigots. If they can’t embrace that concept, maybe they should re-examine their positions.
As for your citing Margie of El Coyote fame, she got exactly what she deserved. She makes her living off all her gay customers, then turns around and stabs them in the back. Why would anyone want to give her another penny. It’s almost as if she feels gay people owe her their money no matter what she does to stab them in the back. It is a fine example of the appropirate use of this sort of information. She thought her bigotry and discrimination wasn’t going to cost her. Others may have leaned a different message from her experience.
Minor clarification: Mormon Temples are not for worship. The LDS Church has Wards and Stakehouses for Sunday Sacrament Meetings and Priesthood meetings…which is more akin to worship.
LDS Temples are few, scattered strategically geographically, and in prominent locations. They are primarily used for sacred rituals.
There are far more Wards/Stakehouses than Temples.
I’m just wondering why you are pulling Chris into revealing his religious affiliation and why does that matter?
Until Chris and Karen condemn Exodus’ promotion of vigilantism, parent-bashing, and Holocaust revisionism in Africa, all they are doing here is making flimsy excuses for their inhumanity and amorality.
The ex-gay promotion of violence in Africa is wrong. The ex-gay and antigay efforts to disenfranchise California families and overturn religious freedom are wrong. In both cases, a sustainable moral society requires that people accept responsibility for the legal and nonviolent consequences of exercising their rights. People may not maliciously harm others while denying their targets any recourse.
Like too many self-described social conservatives these days, Chris and Karen appear to believe that conservative Christians should face no social, financial,or legal consequences for their immoral and unconstitutional actions against others. They consider themselves exempt from the costs that everyone else must face for exercising their rights.
Regan DuCasse,
Thank you the information you shared in your post on March 24th. I completely agree with what you said.
I would particularly like to thank you for expressing your own views in a way that is enlightening and beneficial, without attacking anyone else in this forum who might have other views.
Mike says, “Until Chris and Karen condemn Exodus’ promotion of vigilantism, parent-bashing, and Holocaust revisionism in Africa, all they are doing here is making flimsy excuses for their inhumanity and amorality.”
Okay, Mike, that’s an easy one. You and I haven’t even had an opportunity to discuss this since I entered this forum, but here goes: “I, Chris, do hereby, by Mike’s order, roundly condemn Exodus’ promotion of vigilantism, parent-bashing, and Holocaust revisionism in Africa.” Am I now released from your accusation of being inhumane and amoral?
I just don’t like your Karen/Chris bashing. You don’t know me one bit. Do you know Karen more?
You said this about me, “Chris and Karen appear to believe that conservative Christians should face no social, financial,or legal consequences for their immoral and unconstitutional actions against others. They consider themselves exempt from the costs that everyone else must face for exercising their rights.”
What in the world are you talking about? Um, I don’t recall saying that. I didn’t hear Karen say it either. I read through all the comment sections that I could find on this site, and I didn’t find her saying anything, much less what you just accused her of. Is there another place I can go to see all these terrible things she supposedly said?
@Chris:
Chris, you can read all about “the Margie incident” at BoxTurtleBulletin.com. In that case, it was discovered she made a donation because she is LDS. This was not discovered through eightmaps.com.
Boycotting her business, which she built, as you demonstrated, on the backs of gay people, is an action I fully support. Why should my dollars be spent somewhere that will use them to undermine my rights? Boycott is an extremely effective and appropriate method of protest. It is non-violent, non-disruptive, civil, and effective. It isn’t the amount, it’s the principal. If even 1 penny of my savings went toward stabbing me in the back, I would want that penny back.
And, unless someone’s principals are severely warped, we can all agree that there is a world of difference between boycotting a business and murdering a person. For one thing, one is a legal act and the other is not.
By avarice i meant malice, excuse my sucky grasp of english.
My comment is not about disputing whether or not gay people are targeted for violence more than prop 8 folks. I am not making that comparison. Of course, gay people have experienced more harassment, particularly in places like Uganda. And, I spoke up publicly on my blog regarding concerns of what happened in Uganda.
Nor is my comment per se about donations being made public by organization, or necessarily individuals.
My comment is about the practice of identifying people in such a way that they could be targeted–for example providing physical addresses. Why do you need a physical address? Or phone number?
With all the unstable folk out there in the world who go out and shoot up high schools or kill their boss etc, why would we not want to be more cautious about protecting people’s safety particularly when the issue in question elicits a tremendous amount of emotion on both sides.
I don’t believe that giving information that could jeopardize safety is a good practice whether or not a particular group of people is currently being targeted for violence or not. It only takes one season for the tide to change and a new group to be targeted. To protect one is to protect all. Live long enough and you might find yourself in the next despised group–whatever it happens to be.
Mike, I’d like to understand where you’re coming from and learn about the things you’re talking about. I think there is a lot to be angry about, but I’m not sure I’m the right target for your anger.
You said, “The ex-gay promotion of violence in Africa is wrong.” I agree that it would be wrong to promote violence anywhere. Where can I get the most thorough summary/facts about the ex-gay promotion of violence in Africa? Is it the ex-gay ministry that put out lists of gay people?
You said, “The ex-gay and antigay efforts to disenfranchise California families and overturn religious freedom are wrong.”
I agree that it is inhumane and must be horrible for the people who were legally married to be not legally married due to a situation beyond their control. Is anything being done to mitigate that? Can they be “grandfathered” or something? Are they still able to retain the legal rights within the domestic partnership laws of California?
What are the ex-gay and antigay efforts to overturn religious freedom that you’re talking about?
“A sustainable moral society requires that people accept responsibility for the legal and nonviolent consequences of exercising their rights.”
To a point. I don’t think any of us have to accept the “responsibility” for another person’s actions, and I think there is a limit for having to accept the consequences of exercising our rights. For instance, I think it’s good that our election ballots are cast privately, to protect people from possible harassment from others who might try to intimidate them into voting differently or punish them for their vote.
I agree with the conclusions in the following New York Times article, by people on both sides of our gay issue, that open-democracy is not intended to abet anyone in harassing and/or intimidating people from participating in the democratic process. I think it’s good that discussion is happening in regards to ways to alleviate this tension that has come up.
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/business/08stream.html?scp=1&sq=anti%20Prop%208%20&st=cse
“People may not maliciously harm others while denying their targets any recourse.”
That makes sense. Fortunately, we do have non-violent, non-extorting, non-threatening, non harassing means of recourse.
Personally, I do not think that every person supporting Prop 8 had malicious intentions any more than the creators of the Prop 8 map did. Some people don’t think “marriage” is for people of the same gender, but would not deny gay people the civil rights that come under the heading of “marriage.” Personally, I think the Mormon religion and groups like Focus on the Family are flawed in their anti-gay beliefs and that their money could have been better spent, but I’m trying to learn to be tolerant and let go of the idea that my views are “right” and their views are “wrong.”
Emily K,
You said, “Chris, you can read all about “the Margie incident” at BoxTurtleBulletin.com.”
Wow, just reading the comments under that article, gives an impression that these demonstrations were not “civil.” This sounds like mob mentality. Boycotting is one thing, malicious bullying is another. They are basically saying she better get on her knees and apologize and promise never to do anything they say she can’t do ever again. They even tried to extort money from her for efforts to repeal Prop 8 and wouldn’t “forgive” her otherwise, and other employees did raise and donate a contribution to try to temper things.
https://www.gaywired.com/Article.cfm?Section=66&ID=21111
Let’s fight hate with hate, right? Let’s show those Mormons how bad they are by intimidating those people with our own tactics, right?
What a mess.
How about this one. It doesn’t have anything to do with Eightmaps or lists. It’s just another example of negative things being done by anti-8 people that make no sense and are detrimental to our cause.
https://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=3624
It’s this hateful attitude that concerns me.
Chris, you are developing an unfortunate pattern, the result of which is a thread which is dominated by your comments, resolves no issues and is essentially meaningless. To my knowledge this is your first time commenting at XGW, yet you started out with a dramatic, challenging attitude that causes others to respond in kind.
I will give you that Mike sometimes come across strong, but I am always inclined to give him (and others) some slack because I know how much bigoted filth they have to dredge through each day (Mike writes/edits Truth Wins Out). If you had just responded with a brief protest, I’m quite certain he would have thought twice about how he phrased his comment and possibly explained further. There is absolutely no reason to dilute the thread with this point-by-point diatribe.
You are welcome to participate, but this thread is not a good example of a way to start.
That’s the second or third time you have used a phrase like that, Chris. It is an odd and unusual statement that I rarely hear among GLBTs — here particularly. If you are going to claim a cause, and even claim others here share it, perhaps you can elaborate on yourself a bit. What exactly is your “cause?”
In thinking about this thread, I am beginning to think that Chris is portraying himself as more neutral than he really is. It would seem that his primary goal is to attack any and every action that gay people take to fight for their rights. It isn’t okay to boycott businesses. It isn’t okay to call people on their bigotry. It isn’t okay to point out who our enemies are. We must excuse anyone who bases their bigotry on their religion. It isn’t okay to protest in front of the mormon temples in Oakland and down south. And on on on. I guess we should just shut up, stay in the closet and wait for straight America to decide what crumbs they want to toss our way.
I am hardly a radical, but thank God that gay people aren’t taking that course. Thank God that gay people got angry enough after Prop 8 to stand up and call the Mormons on the bigotry and protest in front of their temples. By getting angry, getting in the street and making some noise, many Californians have a much better sense of how important equal protection under the law is for the gay minority.
I agree, John. I’m not going to sit down and “know my place” until I have to hear straight Americans validate my existence for me. I know I’m a human being worth something. I know I deserve equality. I’m not going to wait until straight America says “it’s ok, gays really do deserve to be seen as human as we straights,” so that people will finally say “ooooOOOOooooh. Ok. Well, the straights aren’t screwed up like the gays so if the straights say it then it MUST be true.”
During the Civil Rights movement of the 60’s, there were some who did things peaceful others with retaliation. During the time when Native Americans were being driven from their lands, some tribes fought others tried peaceful tactics. The Women’s Sufferage Movement also had a variety of actions and reactions by women. When a group of people are attacked, not everyone in that group is going to react in the same manner. The LGBT group is no different.
I would protest outside an LDS church not soley on the grounds of Prop 8 but the way they treat their gay members. The same for the RC church. I boycott Wal Mart, not for anything related to the LGBT community but because thanks to Wal Mart, many small companies have gone under.
We live in a country where we have the right to do these things. If we don’t, then we need to stop singing “Let freedom ring” and give France back the Statue of Liberty.
In my reflextions, one thing I see as an illness most Americans caught during the Bush years was FEAR. Fear to speak out. And even with the new administration, there are many who still have that fear in them. And churches like LDS and RCC and Fundamental Christian churches have played on that fear, and continue to do so. Their tactic is basically: “Shut up, obey, or you’re outta here!”
What these churches (and members of these churches) are experiencing is a taste of their own medicine. “Hecha tu cucharra en tu propio chocolate” as we say in Spanish (Put your spoon in your own chocolate). It’s unfortunate that some people are being singled out and harrassed, but by the same token they shouldn’t be crying victim for it. Democracy isn’t about checking a box on a ballot sheet and then walking away with no consequences. And American Democracy is not ONLY about checking a box on a ballot sheet; it’s about MONEY. Money talks in American Democracy. He who has the most money wins. And when people’s rights have been SOLD to the highest bidder, they aren’t going to take it lightly.
Emily:
Exactly!!!!!!!!!!! or as Bette Midler sang, “I’m beautiful DAMN IT!”
— Alan S.
How true.
The next General Conference for the LDS Church is coming next weekend (April 3-5). Should I go and demonstrate at Temple Square?
I am curious as to what the LDS Elders will say at the Conference. I’m certain the topic of same-sex marriage will be discussed. At least, it certainly will be discussed at the Saturday Priesthood Meeting…which is not open to the general public and is broadcast via their impressive satellite network to Ward/Stakehouses throughout the world. I could sneak into the huge Mega-nacle (20,000 seat Conference Center) by wearing a white shirt, tie and nice slacks and I’ll try to polish my boots. (I’ll leave the cowboy hat home.) I’ll take notes and give a report.
I doubt anything has changed, though. I doubt anything will change.
To quote one of my favorite authors–myself:
We don’t have to call people bigots, but we do have to start talking about bigotry, whether disguised and justified as sincere religious belief, or admitted for what it is.
Chris, if you’re still reading this thread, I ‘d like to say something about the ‘Marjie thing’.
All I had to do was mention that I attended the rallies and the meeting at the restaurant. In less than three thread posts at Independent Gay Forum and Townhall, suddenly I was a bullying and intimidating presence that got a waitress fired and a business shuttered.
I kid you not, it was the gossip effect that completely distorted and rearranged the story into something that didn’t happen at ALL.
No doubt you’re thinking that the boycotts and rallies turned into a violent and threatening mob that scared all those who were worried their contributions would be revealed.
And for a time, and still, it’s VERY difficult to get the opposition into a forum, however peaceful and orderly.
Indeed, Marj Christofferson behaved as if she were going before a firing squad, rather than ‘her gay friends’ who she claimed to love.
The point is Chris, gay folks have been treated to the most condescending and all manner of polite homophobia while a serious quality of life issue was decided by basically anonymous MOB in the voting booth.
This isn’t a difference of political ideology and gay folks are not a social or cultural INVENTION, but their ability to function fully as individuals AND citizens was compromised and everyone is going around like the anger, hurt and fear and reaction to such a violation to their civil ability was wrong and threatening.
I find this exaggerated perception of threat from the opposition beyond insulting.
As the ads that supported Prop. 8 told of threat FROM gay people, marriage itself is under siege more from the very people who have the right to it.
As the opposition insists that gay people have EVERY right already that straight people do, they took it all away by simple majority.
There never seems to be any sense of obnoxious irony in their actions against gay people, while entitling themselves to being MORE wronged by gay people or at least at risk of being so.
Grantdale,
You said, “ps: you will indeed need to detail those ‘links in a later post”. I expect them to show clear examples that are equivalent to the deadly environment in Uganda, or you should apologise. Chris: give us those links. (And please link to authoritative sources.)”
Grantdale, Why would you expect me to provide links that show clear examples that are equivalent to the deadly environment in Uganda?
I said: “I did have a negative first impression of the 8-map site, and I do have a concern for people’s safety due to some of the over-the-top and/or out-of-control behavior of some in our community. (Yes, I can find evidence of that and so can anyone else. I’ll provide some links in a later post if anyone isn’t able to find it themselves.)”
Notice that there is no promise “to show clear examples that are equivalent to the deadly environment in Uganda,” but rather an offer to provide links of over-the-top and/or out-of-control behavior of some in our community that I find disturbing, for anyone who can’t find it themselves.
There’s a world of difference. I’ve already provided an overview in the New York Times about the general issue. Here are some other more specific links (and one in-person observation.)
Is this a final conclusion of the overall issue? No. It’s just my opinion that trying to fight injustice with harassment and intimidation is not a civil or productive course of action.
How does it do any good for our cause to accost an older woman and destroy her property? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD1AITHS2Wc
We tell them not to come into “our” areas, and then we go into theirs? The following article tells about Bash Back’s self-acknowledged attack on a church, and the article has a list of other, mostly illegal, actions that have transpired.
https://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Dec08/Art_Dec08_09.html
The following is an incident of mob-type activity by gay people. Within the article is a link to a local news report. One gay person claims that the religious group was respected and allowed their say and the gay people got to have their say, too. That sounds fine. However, one of the gay men took a Bible, hit a young girl in the head with it, knocked her down, and kicked her. People in the crowd also threw hot coffee and put their hands on one of the young men in indecent ways. That’s not okay. The fact that there is far more abusive behavior directed at gay people isn’t an excuse for anyone to do it. Personally, I think it will be picked up and made a focus that takes away from our cause.
https://www.hyscience.com/archives/2008/11/mob_anti-christ.php
I personally witnessed similar behavior this past year at a local Pride celebration. There was one lone group of anti-gay people present with their signs stating that God hates homosexuality. They stationed themselves near the entrance to the Pride Festival activities. They didn’t yell anything or approach anyone. They just stood there with their signs, and they were willing to listen to people who came up to them.
The day was peaceful. I did feel pride as hundreds of people walked by this little group, laughing, smiling, enjoying the festival: gay, straight, couples holding hands, families with their kids, groups of young people, old people, and everything in between. Some people stopped to talk with the sign-holders. As evening came on, I went to talk with one of them myself , asking if she thought about how hurtful their signs were to people. I heard a couple of them making plans to head home.
I thought to myself, “I’ll bet at least some of them will leave here thinking twice about what their signs were saying/implying after what they saw today.”
Suddenly, a large, raucous group of gay people (many of them drunk) came up, yelling and screaming vulgarities and threats. One guy pulled out a water cannon and started spraying water at them. Yes, it’s only water, not hot coffee or urine or worse, but it was an act of hatred and physical violation.
Throughout the day, this little group’s signs had elicited laughter and scoffing at the hypocrisy. On the other hand the abusive behavior from some of our people was sickening. One guy stepped between the people with the signs and the gathering mob, trying to block the stream of water, letting them know he was gay and asking why they were doing this. The water guy then ran off, but others mobbed around the small group and followed them out of the park and down the streets of town, taunting them, screaming expletives and threats.
During the day, we had made a public statement with our public Pride parade. Our opponents made a statement of condemnation. For most of the day, they ended up looking foolish, and ignorant, but peaceful. Then, some of us joined the foolish, ignorant, and condemning route, adding abusive behavior to the mix.
As I said in the beginning, this type of behavior causes me concern for the safety of those on other sides than ours.
Regan,
You said, “Chris, if you’re still reading this thread, I ‘d like to say something about the ‘Marjie thing’. All I had to do was mention that I attended the rallies and the meeting at the restaurant. In less than three thread posts at Independent Gay Forum and Townhall, suddenly I was a bullying and intimidating presence that got a waitress fired and a business shuttered.”
On the contrary. I find your posts enlightening and find myself wanting to ask more about your thoughts and observations. My response was to the story in the link that Emily gave me, specifically the comments. I can see how you might have the impression of being included in the “bullying” presence. Sorry about that. I trust that your statements about your experience in the situtation are true.
I completely agree with you that the people and organizations that are anti-gay will exaggerate and try to create the illusion that this is a widespread epidemic. Some articles with that kind of spin did get to me. However, it was largely the comments of gay supporters under that Turtle article that did the trick.
After finding a YouTube video of some of the people who where there for the meeting and remembering what you had said, I was able to let loose that one experience having such an impact.
Please keep commenting. Though I’ve been gay and have had my fair share of fear and oppression from childhood and through my career (teaching in south Texas), I haven’t had a lot of experience politically. I appreciate your explanations of your experience.
Robert,
You said, “That’s the second or third time you have used a phrase like that, Chris. It is an odd and unusual statement that I rarely hear among GLBTs — here particularly. If you are going to claim a cause, and even claim others here share it, perhaps you can elaborate on yourself a bit. What exactly is your “cause?”
John, you are talking about any time I mention “our cause,” right? You don’t hear that very often? Oh.
I hope (not promise) to expand on that but for the sake of not monopolizing the thread, a brief definition of what I consider to be the “cause” of LGBT people and supporters would be many of the comments of this thread, especially everything Regan said and the last posts of Ben, Alan, and Emily.
Oh, and you might notice, reading back through, most of my posts are posts are in reference to people talking to me or about me. I do like to answer and respond to those.
I don’t know if it was the fact that you totally ignored my comments about making this thread meaningless and all about you, or the fact that you didn’t have the decency to get at least one of my names right, but I’m going to ask that you take a week long break from commenting and, if you chose to, come back and start over.
If anyone wants to take the effort to illustrate, yet again, that half the “incidents” posted above were reported inaccurately, be my guest. It’s been a long day.
“Our cause.” Does that creep anyone else out?
It won’t be us David — it has been a long, long day. Too tired to be creeped out 😐
Needless to say, anyone who thinks that posting an aged list of innuendo, half-truths, misreports and outright lies is “proof” of anything… is clearly a fan of yellow journalism.
Offering up Michelle Malkin and Matt Barber as “authoritative sources” made us laugh.
I have no need to “introduce [an] idea through a statement posed as a question.” I wrote a question as a question. Must everyone be assumed to have some sort of hidden motive?
Doreen, earlier you said:
You said this when the discussion still lacked any facts concerning “terrible things” supposedly being done to those on the public donor lists. IOW, there were no facts to support anything being done to them at all, and yet you were implying through your question that they might have done some of those things (which we hadn’t even shown to exist) to themselves. You even assigned the motive — “to hurt our side.”
We were already in a specious argument and this brought us even farther from the facts. If you knew of an instance where someone claimed to have been harmed due to being listed in public donor records and further, you had some evidence that they had faked the incident, then you could have provided that as the basis and suggested your conclusion.
No one said you had a hidden motive.