Psalms 51:8 (Psalms 51:6 in Christian texts) tells us that G-d desires truth from one’s inner-most self. Proverbs 25:18 says that lying about your neighbor is as bad as inflicting physical harm upon them.
I’m sitting here contemplating these very basic and powerful lines of scripture, all the while wondering why Exodus International doesn’t just go for broke and start its own PAC.
XGW posted an entry putting to light Randy Thomas’ continued contempt for legalized LGBTQ equality and Alan Chambers’ “conflicted” feelings regarding Proposition 8. Despite an official stance of being apolitical, Exodus has chosen to once again embody a very Orwellian definition of something they espouse. Mike Airhart notes that joining Randy and Alan, Mike Ensley (Exodus’ Youth specialist) has engaged in his own political actions. Airhart also reports that a post in Randy’s personal blog has been promoted by the Exodus Youth newsletter. The topic of the post? “Far-Left Hate Mongering.”
Mike Ensley’s new facebook-helmed Conservative Education Project touts an idealized portrait of Ronald Reagan – the man who voted against a proposition to ban openly gay teachers while governor of California. Among the rules listed in the group, promotion of pro-liberal arguments is prohibited, as this is apparently not a group intending to reach across the aisles. Rather, Mike Ensley is determined to keep tabs on President-Elect Barack Obama’s agenda:
Hey everyone, I’m gradually posting items from the Obama agenda (directly from his site) and would like your thoughts. Responses in any area where you have increased interest or experience would also be greatly appreciated!
There have been a number of movements gelling to fight against the “extreme liberal” agenda of the new administration. The Heritage Foundation, a group Ensley recommends to members of his group, is especially alarmed about the “resurgent left.” This kind of enthusiasm is coming from a man who advocates spreading gossip about school Gay-Straight Alliances, so really there isn’t that much surprise.
If Exodus is so adamant about freedom of choice – freedom to live the way one wants to live – then why are they so determined to make life more difficult for sexually honest gays?
Because the freedom of their choice is to have ours stumped. The very sight of LGBT lives living as normal as anybody straight offends them because they need LGBTs to stay “abnormal”, or an “abomination”, so that they can continue making careers out of our suffering. The painting of our inexistence, and the overturning of facts about homosexuality as a sexual orientation, is the only way for them to push the freedom to make our lives miserable. They have to look “happy”, while we need to look “struggling” for them. They have to look like an example of an alternative to the so-called “homosexual lifestyle”, while we need to look like we are a sad case of human beings who are stuck in a bad life choice.
Hence, Exodus needs to look like they have the tens of thousands who have “fleed” from homosexuality, even without any evidence. While the tens of thousands of homosexuals who finally achieve normality of marriage and certified for it, need to have theirs revoked to continue making the ex-gay path the only choice. Call it ex-gay or no marriage if you will.
Here’s my question. If a young man or woman ever got involved with Exodus, yet were staunchly Democratic, would they be asked to change their political orientation too? Surely one’s politics doesn’t have to have anything to do with one’s personal religious convictions or lifestyle choices (which is why one can have openly-gay and/or atheistic Republicans). I don’t think it’s wrong for Randy, Alan, etc. to post their political ideas on their personal blogs. It’s the knowledge that this kind of thing could affect their ministry that bugs me.
Jay,
Are you aware of anyone who has worked at the national level for Exodus in the last decade who wasn’t/isn’t closely identified with the most right wing parts of the Republican Party?
I don’t ask this question to put you on the spot or anything. It is just my impression that Exodus would never hire a Democrat. It operates more like a political action committee than any ministry I have ever seen.
At age 17 I elected to leave the Roman Catholic Church and began attending a Fundamentalist Bible Church. The spiritual conversion I had experienced in the privacy of my home quickly turned into a full-blown cultural conversion that affected the music I enjoyed, my daily activities AND my politics. In the early 1980’s I learned that to be a good Christian I needed to support Ronald Reagan, oppose abortion and adhere to the teachings of the politically active Moral Majority.
One principle seemed to override much of the covert political actions we did through our jobs, at school, and wherever our feet touched ground, a principle that gave us license as Christians to operate with duplicity. We took the words of Jesus, “Be wise as serpents and gentle as doves” to mean that in advancing the Kingdom of God, we could employ any means necessary. We didn’t have to be honest with “people in the world” (ie non-Christians or the wrong kind of Christians) as we had a higher calling allowing the end results to justify the means we took to realize our goals.
We also operated under fear. If we didn’t overturn abortion laws, if LGBT people received more rights and opportunities, if we did not wholeheartedly support the Israeli government’s expansion into Palestinian territories and other parts of the region, God would judge our nation, and we would suffer. We functioned as warriors for Jesus and the church, reclaiming lost ground, taking advantage of every opportunity we had to advance the agenda laid out for us by Jerry Falwell, James Dobson and others.
From my personal experience, I did not operate out of love or truth or justice, rather fear motivated my actions. Fear is toxic to the brain, causing neural pathways to shut down, keeping us from thinking rationally.
I also felt motivated by hate–mostly self-hatred. I hated homosexuality IN me. Therefore, I felt a strong revulsion and opposition to it anywhere I saw it or sensed it. As an ex-gay, I went to war against myself and my sexuality. With a war raging inside of me, I projected that war outwardly as a personal jihad against anything gay. Laws protecting LGBT people and granting them rights threatened my own personal battle to eradicate gayness in me. If I could not be gay, if it was bad for me, I assumed and asserted it was bad for everyone else.
As I opposed gayness (in me and all around me) I received affirmation and even respect from the straight men that I desperately wanted to please. The more I hated myself for being gay and strove to destroy my gay orientation, the more praise and attention I received from straight church leaders. When as a “former homosexual” I spoke out against gay rights, I gave these straight folks permission to maintain their heterosexual superiority over non-straights.
I had no peace within in regards to my sexuality. As a result, I stirred up trouble for others who frustrated and threatened me with the peace and comfort that they exuded.
I do not pretend to know what motivates the political anti-gay actions of Alan Chambers, Randy Thomas and other men with gay attractions who seek to change and suppress these in themselves. I know that for me I could not assent to “Peace on Earth and Good will toward All” until I found peace within and extended good will towards myself.
I guess I just want to say that the LGBTQ communities should have the same rights as others. I would add however, that those in Exodus and other related organizations should have the right to live as they choose as well. The balance is all should be able to live according to their beliefs, even if they deny themselves or their sexuality or if they should get married. That is why our country is free. Why all the fussing! I’m sure God is big enough for all of use and will handle all the conflict for us…let us let Him do His job.
I am not a staunch democrat, however I am democrat and I am associated with an Exodus ministry. I don’t know that I’ve even talked with higher leaders about my political stance, being that I believe that in ministry politics should have no place (in which I know many of my counterparts would disagree).
Understand that not all Exodus people believe the same way as all Exodus staff. We have things in common, but I hold many different opinions. I do believe that if people don’t want to be gay and wish to deny that life…they have the free choice….just like the gay person who chooses to live as such. I minister to both…according to what they need and refuse to shove my political views on them. Political views shouldn’t even be a part of ministry…but it is…I find it ridiculous…God help them.
@chloe: I’m not aware of any laws which prevent ex-gays from avoiding same-sex relationships or from marriage with the opposite sex if they chose that. The “imbalance” is that the GLBT community lacks many of these rights. Even something as basic as employment (remember ENDA?); where I live I could be fired from a job for no other reason than that I am gay. On the other hand, this would be exceptionally rare for an ex-gay (which, if they are being honest, is essentially “straight”).
And if an ex-gay was fired, it would most likely be the connection to their having “once been gay” — a bit of irony. Oddly enough, they could still claim discrimination on religious grounds because that is covered by law. From our experience here, and I suspect no one would challenge this, most ex-gays who claim that title are religiously motivated.
You may mean well, but it’s rather flippant to say “why all the fussing” when so much money and energy is being used against our lives. It’s hard to live and let live when under those circumstances.
@Pastor Underdog: I couldn’t agree with you more. But surely you do know that the Exodus leadership would surely question the faith of a typical democrat. I doubt you will see that in print, but it is most definitely the assumption in casual conversation. Like so many evangelicals, they have latched onto the GOP and chocked the life out of it, leaving those of us with conservative/libertarian views with few options.
Dobson’s irresponsible attempts to influence voters earlier this year should be enough by itself to move him to resign. There may be a technical wall between that and the ministry, but that’s all it is.
Pastor Underdog: Thanks for answering. My question wasn’t about the “higher-ups” but about people who come to Exodus for help. I understand fully that, like anything, Exodus isn’t a totally unified block and there are many respectful individuals who keep politics out of it. Which is good.
David, sadly I know that Dr. Dobson has been very ‘unkind’ and it saddens me greatly…Focus on the Family has done great things and has other great resources out there…but politically he kills the life out of some things. I believe that if Exodus knew who I was, that I would be questioned and maybe asked to leave or step down, thus the pseudo name. I personally believe that LGBTQ should have all the civil rights and privileges as all other people and struggle with my connections with Exodus, as I know they do not feel the same. In this ministry you can become disillusioned in many regards…either two far left in believe that the Christian Bible speaks nothing in regards to homosexuality (I do believe that Scripture is clear on homosexual activity and as much as I’d like to change it, I can’t) or to far right condemning the very people (the Bible says nothing on the person that is homosexual). I know that this isn’t popular, but it is what I believe, however as an American I enjoy living in this FREE country and believe it should be free, no matter one’s moral stance (or political for that matter). Also, as Pastor, I’m clear that God gave each human a free will…to chose to live as a Christ-follower or not. He doesn’t force anyone! Nor does each Christ-follower fit the same mold as the other. Why should we as Christians take away such free will, when God himself doesn’t? I find that very pretentious and wrong on our part. I’m working hard to find that balance, though very unpopular, even in my own circles.
Thank you David for the reminder that some places are still very discriminatory. I believe that to be very wrong. There are no law preventing ex-gays to live or claim change, but yet the LGBT communities harass those who claim such ways just as much as radical rights harass them. This is what is disheartening. LGBT people need to let ex-gays claim it and live it…as ex-gays need to let LGBT do the same. Why is neither side is doing such?
Sorry to have misunderstood you Jay. I know for a fact I have minister to those democratic and I, or others that work with me, haven’t asked them to change their political views…that’s crazy to me. I speak for me and our ministry when I say we don’t ask people to change their orientation either….we let God change people to what he wants, not what we want. We are there to be used as tools for whatever the person is looking for…a closer relationship with God…a safe place to figure out life….or if they feel God asking them to lay down their sexual preference, we’ll help there too. We don’t judge or care about other issues that really have nothing to do with why they come to us….unless they make it an issue. My guess is this isn’t how all ministries are….especially solid Exodus followers.
Of course there are laws. Anybody who is straight is protected. That is what ex-gays are, essentially, at least in label. Not gay or queer in any way – so, “straight.” If they become associated with anything else, it’s with being gay.
This attempt to say “both sides are wrong” is just wrong itself and displays a complete lack of awareness. The LGBTQ community is not saying ex-gays should not have the freedom to live their lives. If they did not place such an importance on their (fighting) sexuality, nobody would need to know they are or were once (struggling to not be) gay. Any of the few cases were ex-gay discrimination or attack has occurred by gay people pales in comparison to the right-wing political machinery that has been launched against the gay community. It doesn’t compare, not one bit. The largest gay-supportive organization, the Human Rights Campaign, does nothing to impose on the rights of ex-gays to be “ex-gay.”
There are no laws being put on state ballots to outlaw ex-gay ministries or keep ex-gays from being protected by laws. ex-gays can get married (to the opposite sex, which is what they want), ex-gays will never be fired for NOT being attracted to the same sex, and ex-gays will NEVER have their religious freedoms taken away. AND, they have the backing of very powerful political organizations – not to mention, the richest religious organizations in the country.
What exactly is the problem?
Peterson: Thank you so much for sharing that bit of information, that is very informative to me.
I totally agree with this. And my comments are not based on me being unaware…I’m aware of the conversations out there….and this is one of them. I stress again that I know law protect ‘straight’ people and not gays. I find that wrong and disheartening. I have seen LGBT communities attach the freedoms of ex-gay choices. A problem I see is that the ‘louder’ crowds on both sides are the ones that are seen in the media and elsewhere, but that these ‘loud crowds do no adequately or accurately represent either communities as a whole.
Chloe, what is your connection to this issue? I ask because you seem unaware. I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t know anyone personally who wants to harass someone because they decide to be celibate (essentially what ex-gay really means). The problems begin when groups like Exodus, NARTH, etc, make claims that are not true, and lobby against the rights of those who don’t follow their mandate.
I’m short on time today but perhaps someone else can explain why the whole “can’t we all just get along” thing doesn’t work with this.
Pastor Underdog,
I suspect you are not alone in your feelings about Exodus from the inside. They have lost some of their better ministries, and yet maintain people at the top like Randy Thomas who simply don’t belong anywhere near a ministry. They might actually do some good if they would abandon their obsession with heterosexuality and change.
I have no issues with someone who believes that their faith prevents them from participating in same-sex relationships. I think it is a bit sad, but I also understand that for many, their faith is more important than anything else. I believe I am such a person, but I do not understand scripture the way you do.
The point is, the Church has made accommodations for such issues before — divorce and remarriage is a quick example. It is not necessary that people be demonized because they do not agree. And yet we have people claiming that gays will be the end of civilization, worse than terrorism, vile and disgusting, after the children, and on and on.
There are some lights in the darkness. Wendy Gritter from New Directions (an Exodus ministry in Canada) is a great example of how such an organization might be done right. Search on her name at the top right if you want to see how she was received here when I invited her to write a post for us. It’s almost scary how well Exodus might do with someone like her at the helm 😉
Another point I’d like to make is that Exodus, a ministry that was not started as a right-wing political arm but a religious group, is behaving just like all the other right-wing groups are now. This is a trend they have continued. They’re ecstatic when a “conservative” judge is assigned to the bench but ridicule those who “legislate” from it. They rejoice at republican power, worship Ronald Reagan (though I have my doubts they really follow much of what he advocated), encourage anti-gay legislation, oppose anything that “legitimizes” gay people as human beings who blend perfectly with society, prophesize the end of freedom if certain government officials are elected, and scream about the sky falling while running for their bomb shelters at the supposed threat of a “liberal, leftist” government in power. Exodus behaves just like the Heritage Foundation would. What’s that saying? “if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, acts like a duck…”
I’ve often wondered why so many Christians have a great deal of respect for people who have been repeatedly proved to be lying frauds. I’m thinking of groups like Answers in Genesis as much as of people like that old charlatan James Dobson. Creationists and anti-gay groups actually use very similar methods: they quote-mine respected researchers to make them say the opposite of what they actually say.
Why would anyone with the slightest pretense to a desire for truth and justice have any respect at all to these fools? And yet Dobson and his kind are widely revered. It’s obscene.
TRiG.
I have just found what seems to be ex-ex gays attaching those who wish to not be gay. Do a random youtube search or read various articles. I see in this discussion that many, if not all of you, seem to NOT be attaching them, but I have come across them.
And since many feel as though I’m not aware, then tell me more about, and I quote:
This very statement is what has been knawling at me for years. While we may disagree on the Biblical point-of view on all this (and I’m honest when I say, I really wish I didn’t believe what I do, but I’ll battle that in a different forum), I agree that the church needs to really get it’s act together and be consist. They need to either run the risk of not making exceptions for enough people (like divorce and remarriage) or start making more exceptions (LGBTQ and even others….gossipers, liars, thieves, etc. that the Bible speaks out against).
I am also aware of Wendy Gritter, though I don’t know her personally. I do wish many more Exodus leaders felt the same way as she, and I would also include myself in that list. I know that I am currently walking a fine line with those I work with as I can see their ‘fear’ of me becoming to ‘soft’ and compassionate to the LGBTQ community, but I will not demonized people who choose not to believe as I do. I may personally feel that they may face consequences, but my personal opinions need not turn into legislation (or else we all could be in major trouble for various reasons).
This has been a great discussion and thank you all for your comments. I’m going to have to bow out as life is getting busy. You all are gracious and I really just hope that someday we could have the concept of ‘can’t we all just get along’. It may not work right now, but I don’t think it is impossible.
While I think I understand your meaning, I would hasten to include that two people who love and support each other and want to spend their lives together would not best be compared to gossipers, liars, thieves, etc.
I hope you will participate in the future.
Oh, I didn’t mean it that way at all…my point was the radical right concludes that sin is sin and believe it or not many would say there is no hierarchy of sin (even thought they do not act as such)….thus the consistency needs to be as such….if they say that rights need to be taken away from LGBT because it is sin, then rights should be taken away from all the other people who sin in other ways…thus my other examples of sin referenced in the Bible. Mis-communication often happens when in a hurry. Thought I’d clarify.
I did know Wendy Gritter personally, and I can say she is doing a very good job up here in Canada. Although I have since left the ex-gay ministry and have lost contact with her (and many others), I can appreciate that she has a genuine heart for God and the Ministry, and is doing a good job.
I also think there is a difference between two loving partners, and vipers. I think the difference is the condition of the heart. Many of us do not wish harm on anyone… we just want the diginity we deserve.
I think the problem often lies in the fact that parts of the “gay scene” (drugs, bathouses,etc.) are not safe or respectable.. much like those things present in the “straightworld” aren’t. But for gay folks, the church often throws us all in one and calls us ALL perverted, and sick. Where many of us are very healthy, God loving, wholesome people. Who are being as faithful as we can with what we have (and are).
Chloe claims to find many examples of “ex-ex-gays attaching (sic) those who do not wish to be gay.”
I guess it all depends on your definition of “attacking,” Chloe. Are ex-gays getting mugged in the streets by hostile gays and ex-ex-gays? Are their homes being vandalized? Can you cite a single example of an ex-gay getting fired from his/her job due to the influence of hostile ex-ex-gays? Are gay people promoting legal barriers against ex-ex-gays getting married to opposite sex partners or adopting children?
Or do you simply mean that ex-ex-gays are speaking out with strong disagreements with the ex-gay movement? Since when is criticism and debate the same thing as an attack on your rights?
I am not against people speaking out in disagreement. Isn’t that we are doing right now?
Why do ex-gays want love and approval from the gay community? Isn’t the whole point of going to an ex-gay institution to rid oneself of their “gayness,” and to disassociate themselves from the LGBT community (that doesn’t even exist according to those same institutions)?
quote: ” guess it all depends on your definition of “attacking,” Chloe. Are ex-gays getting mugged in the streets by hostile gays and ex-ex-gays? Are their homes being vandalized? Can you cite a single example of an ex-gay getting fired from his/her job due to the influence of hostile ex-ex-gays?”
YES on all counts! But when my friend tried to report it to the media they refused to write up or air the story because they were scared of gay group backlash against their media outlets. This happens in toronto canada all the time. Im a straight woman who is a friend with a gay guy who sees himself as ex-gay and the hatred his former ‘friends’ show to him has resulted in ALL the situations you mention including breaking into his condo and destroying everything and spray painting “once gay always gay” all over his walls.
So please spare me the nonesense that exgays dont go through hate attacks. This is why most aren’t open to saying they are exgays and simply keep it to themselves.
He was also attacked on Queens St by exgays who he did not know personally but who know some of his exgay friends (they saw pics of him?) They attacked him and almost killed him until some passing cyclists stopped it. When he reported it to the police and explained everything the cops said “well we wont put it down that the attack was for being ‘exgay'”
There is overt violence on both sides.
Peterson Toscano said:
Aside from LOVE, the word “PEACE” is said or implied throughout the four written Gospels. Not that it was a Christian-made concept, but certainly it was something Christ wanted for his followers and for all humanity. Mystics of almost all faiths have drawn upon the fact that we need inner peace in our lives in order to be channels of that same peace.
I think Toscano hits on a very strong point in that we need to find peace within ourselves. I have watched Peterson on TV against the likes of Chambers and it amazes me how calm Toscano is in answering questions and talking about his life experiences. In contrast, Chambers always looks like a deer caught in the headlights. Just on body language alone, Chambers seems very unhappy to me and he reminds me of someone who has just had a tragedy occur in his life and is trying to put on a face about it. And I don’t want to just target Chambers. I see it with a lot of ex-gays I have met and talked with. They always talk like used car salespersons – like there’s something they’re not telling me; they’re not being straightforward, and they get upset when they find out I am knowledgeable and start asking questions that they don’t have answer for.
Linda Collins-
I’m sorry to hear of your friend’s situation. But as I’ve stated here many times, I lived as ex-gay for 30 years and never had to worry even once about any type of discrimination, to say nothing of violence. And I was part of several ex-gay groups in three different cities, and never heard anyone complain of any such problem as you describe.
As someone who is now out and partnered in a big city that’s considered very gay-friendly, I find a striking contrast. A gay man was recently beaten to death just a few blocks from my office, while on his way to a popular night club that I have taken my own kids to. I definitely think twice about even holding my partner’s hand in public.
The real life situation of all ex-gays I’ve even known–and I’ve known a lot–is vastly different from gay people who are subject to legally allowed discrimination and a constant threat of violence.
Linda said:
While no one can rule out the bad acts of some out there somewhere, this statement is just a little too convenient. I’ve never heard of law enforcement caring about the backlash from anyone, unless perhaps it is against their own behavior. This is particularly so in the case of assault. And even if they were to care, they would not tell the victim their reasoning. Something this far outside the norm would need some solid proof before it will be accepted as part of the equation here.
The FBI (in our case) does not track crimes against ex-gays because any such crimes are not part of a real trend. On the other hand, we have definitely seen ex-gay organizations manufacture assault situations to bolster their own arguments. This is ironic when you consider that on the one hand they claim that gays do not deserve what they call “special rights” but on the other they claim that ex-gays do.
I don’t think there are many here who do not see these claims for what they are.
@chloe:
If you have something specific for us to consider, please link to it. We can’t reasonably discuss a “random Youtube search.”
I’m not certain how any of this is relevant to the original post, but there is no way for us to judge the veracity of an anecdotal claim about a friend, or something one saw in a random, unspecified Youtube search. Let’s stick to relevant facts.
I would also add that a conflict between an individual and his former friends, no matter how unfair or even violent, is vastly different from the legal and social discrimination that Exodus leaders like Randy Thomas advocate against gay people in general. Don’t forget, Randy opposes not only marriage rights, but also employment rights, hate crime laws, and efforts to fight anti-gay bullying in schools. And while I’m not certain on this last, I expect he also opposed the Supreme Court decision striking down laws against sodomy, which made it possible to jail gay people for having sex.
Since I decided to come out again, I’ve been pretty much cut off by my siblings and relatives other than my children. That hurts, especially since we had a very strong family bond. However, I don’t consider that as a form of legal discrimination or an attack on my rights.
It’s very different when you have to worry about violence and discrimination from people who don’t even know you, but who target you simply for being who you are. Or when people seek to impose or maintain legal barriers to prevent you from living your own personal choices.
Yes, Alan S, you have a very good point when you say:
Body language and facial expression can divulge a great deal more than words.
A few years ago there was broadcast on ITV in England a documentary film, entitled Going Straight, about an Exodus-affiliated ministry in Kansas. (I still have it on video.) The film focuses mainly on two men.
The first was married and had two children. I felt extremely sorry for him and his wife, since it was obvious that they both felt desperate at being trapped in an unworkable marriage.
The other one had at least not complicated his situation by marrying a woman, but seemed to have been imbued with the absurd idea that a man who isn’t heterosexual isn’t living as a real man. He kept praying to God to make him “the man that you meant me to be.”
It was with some relief that I learnt that both had dropped out of the programme since the film was completed and that one of them was now living in a gay releationship.
At one point the film shows the married one having a conversation over lunch about the difficulties in his marriage with a counsellor of the ministry, himself a married ex-gay. The counsellor says:
The repeated assertion itself raises the suspicion that he’s trying to convince himself at least as much as the counselee, and this suspicion is heightened by the intonation of his voice and by his facial expression and general body language.
And then he adds:
True, no doubt, but I fail to see the significance of that observation in this particular context. Is he trying, by changing the subject, to jam the airwaves against the message that it isn’t really working for him at all?
A third client of the ministry, on whom the film focuses briefly, is shown thanking God that he hasn’t done lately what he used to do. My heart really goes out to him, because whenever the camera shows him in close-up he’s clearly doing his best not to cry. I’m no doctor, but I would judge him to be on the verge of a serious nervous breakdown. I don’t know what became of him, but I hope that he too escaped.
https://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65112
chloe,
I am not even bothering to look at your worldnetdaily link. They have never been a reliable source. Do you have any independant sources (CNN, ABC, Washington Post, NY Times, or even a decent regional city newspaper)?
Linda Collins,
Your post was not believable to me. What evidence do you have that any of this occurred? It sounds like the sort of thing that PFOX puts out…lots of drama, but no real substance to back up all the lurid allegations. You’ll have to do better than this to even convince me that you have an ex-gay friend.
Linda Collins sounds like a troll. Chloe, I thought you said you had a youtube link. WND? Seriously? Really? A “news organization” that by computer changes every occurance of the word “gay” to “homosexual” so they can make us seem like our lives are based on sex alone? THAT’S who you’re getting your information from? Try again.
Okay Chloe I did read your link. What do you think it proves?
If I accept every word of the story at face value–a stretch, considering the totally unreliable source–it is the story of a young man murdered by his abusive, obsessive gay lover. Truly horrible–but aren’t there
many, many identical incidents involving heterosexual couples?
Chloe, WND is not a genuine news source, it is a propaganda site. Even so, if you had read the link in my last comment, you would have known that the manufactured “assault” about which we reported is the same one in the post you offered up. The organization involved, PFOX, tried a similar stunt weeks later but we had a camera and a reporter there (thanks to Wayne Besen) to show what really happened. This has nothing to do with a point of view, these sources have proved that they simply can’t be trusted.
Unless there is some genuine, factual information here, let’s move back toward the topic (which has nothing to do with the notion that ex-gays are being pummeled en masse).
My last post so as to get back on topic.
https://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2008/11/12/gay-rights-activists-harass-old-lady/
@ Emily and Dave
LOL…The funniest thing about WND is that if you look at their page they are genuinely shocked that the White House press office doesn’t regard them as actual reporters and refuses to answer any questions they pose. :0D
Chloe: you are suggesting a false equivalency.
One or two incidents of ex-gay persecution (which you have FAR from substantiated) as excoriable as it would be, does not begin to compare to the centuries of systemic persecution of gays by heterosexualists.
You gotta do better than a tu quoque argument.
I see ex-gays for pay as kapos.
I think there is a full spectrum of opinions. and of course both sides go through some abuses..
We need to be realistic and say, it happens.
But I don’t think that case is stated any more clearly by these two clips from un realiable sources.
Yes, there are. Instances of heterosexual men murdering women who leave them, or who try to leave them, are innumerable.
While this behaviour can never be condoned, whether the context be heterosexual or homosexual, what I find interesting is this:
When a heterosexual man murders his wife or girlfriend in such circumstances, it’s always assumed – and quite rightly, I’m sure – that he did it because she was leaving him . Even if she was leaving him for a lesbian lover, it’s still assumed that he murdered her because she was leaving him, rather than because she was attempting to leave the heterosexual lifestyle – even if he regarded her desertion of him for another woman as adding insult to injury.
So why is precisely the opposite assumption made in the WND report of the case of the young man murdered by his rejected gay lover (assuming that it’s accurately reported), viz. that he was murdered because he was trying to leave “the” homosexual lifestyle, rather than because he was trying to leave his gay lover? There is no justification for that assumption.
Actually, neither of the clips–even if accepted at face value–come close to establishing Chloe’s claim that “ex-ex-gays are attacking those who wish to not be gay.”
One is a story of domestic violence, where an abusive gay lover kills the young man who wants to leave him. While the young man’s motivation for leaving might have been a religious decision against being gay, the case is otherwise non-distinguishable from many crimes of violence in heterosexual relationships, when one partner wants to leave. Certainly, there is no suggestion that the killer was an ex-ex-gay.
The second shows an incident at a Palm Springs CA rally protesting Propostion 8. Some of the protestors do push an older woman, who appears to be there as a counter protestor, snatch a cross from her hands, and stomp on it. This clip has been widely shown on gay sites today, with admonitions that Proposition 8 protestors should be more respectful of others. But however you view it, the clip has absolutely nothing to do with attacks on ex-gays by ex-ex-gays.
Do I doubt there are incidents where someone joining an ex-gay ministry is treated badly by former gay friends? Of course not. But personal conflicts simply are not on the same plane as legal discrimination, which (to get back to the point of this whole thread) Exodus leaders are fighting so hard to maintain.
Emily K, I am a gay conservative who is concerned about an Obama Presidency…………….but, not because of gay issues.
That’s fine, Swampfox, but Exodus is behaving like a far-right political group crying “the sky is falling! the end is nigh!” because Obama is pro-choice and treats gay people like human beings – NOT because his stance on taxing, de-regulation, government welfare, and health care is anti-Christian.
William said (bold mine):
That’s exactly the impression I get when I hear Alan Chambers overly qualify his statements with the phrase “the truth is.”
It seems that their identities hinge on it.
Their “ex-gay,” and thus their Christian identities-(safe from an eternal hell), hinge on the denial of their own same-sex attractions.
The reality of that denial is recognized in their awareness of we sexually honest gays. As long as we exist in their minds, they are incapable of the full-fledged denial that they so long for.
In short, at least as far as it appears to me, it’s projection to the point of perversion.
As long as we are visible, we will exist in their minds. So, as long as we visible, we will not only be a constant reminder of their own internal fraud, but also a reminder of their insurmountable mission to save we ‘gay identified’ souls from our hellbound selves (Lest God deem them worthy of our fate).
The rest of us were going to hell anyway and bringing others with, so no loss there when it comes to any lying for Jesus-crisis of conscience – but big gains in the ‘not going to hell / favor with God’ department.
So I see their external efforts to get the world to “deny” homosexuality as being reflective of their internal efforts to deny their own homosexuality.
I think you have it, Emproph. And quite a few people have made this observation. I think this is the one…
Oh, and looks like Mr. Exodus VP himself is joining in the games of blowing minor events at gay protests out of proportion.
https://randythomas.org/2008/11/10/stop-it-therapy-for-the-masses-a-day-dream/
Note the Joe Dallas endorsement.
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In addition (in regard to the title of that thread): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLMTvxOaeE
LOL i thought of the exact same thing Emproph!!!
If the endorsement was in the comments section, forget it; I could barely get through the post to remember any names. Writing about Randy takes the most out of me. There’s so much slime to wade through; keeping myself from going insane with anger and hopelessness at the political machine that “loves”/opposes us, at the willful ignorance and manipulation of these people, really drains me. I have a feeling having a conversation with him might be something akin to screaming into a pillow. Or at a Stepford wife.
https://genocideforjesus.blogspot.com/2008/11/joe-dallas-does-vp-of-exodus.html