In what is described as a small gathering that was apparently not meant for public ears, an Oklahoma State Representative rails on about the “homosexual agenda,” using any number of discredited, Paul Cameron inspired quotes. According to JMBzine.com, the speaker is Rep. Sally Kern, R-Oklahoma City, sponsor of HB 1569 mentioned in the clip.
Claiming that “gays are infiltrating city councils,” she boldly announces that various parts of the nation – Kensington MD, Pittsburgh PA, West Palm Beach FL, and more – are all under the “control” of gays. It takes no imagination to understand the war-like hyperbole she uses. But as if to make certain the point comes across, she continues with this:
I honestly think it’s the biggest threat our nation has, even more so than terrorism or Islam.
If you’ve ever had doubts as to what is said by some lawmakers about gays behind closed doors, this should help. While many have learned to clean up their act in public, bigotry is a powerful thing. The really sad part is that Rep. Kern must have realized that saying these things would be well received, at least by those constituent present.
In 2004, Rep. Kern was elected with 67.65% of the vote in District 84. Citizens of Oklahoma, for goodness sakes please do not re-elect this woman.
Update: Pams House Blend has a copy of an email Kern sent to a person named Richard who asked her to explain her recorded comments. She apparently agrees with the democratic process as long as the voters agree with her (a gay man is running for a statewide seat).
How about a disgustingly vile anti-trans diatribe from the Denver Gayzette?
https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/News/US/Benjamin%20Paige/ben-paige-hi-res.jpg
They issued an apology that did not include any mention of the author of the article, Benjamin Paige, but then quickly took it down off their website.
And people in the south wonder why they are so often portrayed as ignorant morons.
Most of them aren’t, but you wouldn’t know that with people like Miss Kern as their representative.
I think what was more shocking than her words was the silence from the crowd. I heard NO ONE gasp, no mutterings, nothing resembling a countrarian viewpoint.
Was it an article or a letter to the editor/comment?
One hateful, false generalization deserves another? I’m surprised you didn’t say “some of my best friends are from the South.” Bigotry knows no regional boundaries.
Was it an article or a letter to the editor/comment?
It was an article from a regular columnist.
https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/News/US/Gayzette%20defames%20trans%20child.html
If I understood Jason correctly, he was acknowledging that the “ignorant moron” stereotype was a false perception, stemming from a minority of southerners (like Rep Kern) who give the rest a bad name. He did say quite clearly that the majority aren’t ignorant.
David, chill out and READ what I wrote.
Or, I can just point out what I said to you:
I said people in the south wonder why they are so often PORTRAYED (as in represented) as ignorant morons.
Now, notice that I used the word “portrayed” meaning that what is true may not be what we see, that’s part of the point I was making, David.
next I said:
Most of them aren’t.
Huh, if I’m making hateful generalizations, why’d I say that most of the south isn’t ignorant morons? Hmm? Think about that for just a moment.
Now if I was making a hateful and false generalization, believe me, I’d make it, I’d say something along the lines of “Just like a southerner.”
But I didn’t, I chose carefully words that displayed an opinion that is quite well backed by the YouTube video in other words, I think Miss Kern is an ignorant moron.
Just so you know what I mean, buy ignorant, I mean not knowing. I’m ignorant to French, because I never learned to speak it. Ignorant is not necessarily a hateful word.
As to “moron”, wikipedia, for example, has this to say”describe a person with a mental age located between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale. ”
Now, someone who calls me a terrorist just because they don’t approve of my relationship(as if it’s any of their business) is behaving chidishly in my mind, so yeah, I think moron applies.
David, now even if I was just tossing out insults instead of carefully picked words, so what? Miss Kern has no respect for me, if she did she wouldn’t be slandering me in front of a crowd. Now, given that, why on earth should I give her any in return, especially in a forum she will probably never read?
And no, some of my best friends aren’t from my south, but my family is. I spent many summers in a trailer on the outskirts of Tulsa. Not that it’s ANY of your business.
Replace Southerners with gays or blacks, and see if that holds up. I’m not saying Jason is a bad person, I’m saying that it’s all too easy for us to fall into bigotry. And I did find a statement like that in response to a subject like this rather ironic.
That’s just my opinion, I think it was an inappropriate comment. Oddly enough, Oklahoma would be considered Midwest anyway, so why are we talking about stereotypes about people from the South in the first place?
Wow, so quick to defend our detractors when they behave as such.
I didn’t call her a B*tch.
I called her ignorant, please explain how she is not ignorant when it comes to gay people?
I called her a moron, please explain how that is not appropriate given my earlier notation that I think she’s behaving childishly and that moron can be attributed to people who are mentally between the ages of 8 and twelve?
Please explain how it’s not appropriate to call someone ignorant and a moron when they clearly display these characteristics enthusiastically?
Not that I should have to explain myself to you, but apparently you guys will give bigots the benefit of the doubt, but not me. Interesting.
And no, David R,
The South goes as far west as texas and as far north as Oklahoma.
here’s a map from StateMaster.com
https://www.statemaster.com/region/south
had a duplicate for some reason.
It’s not “us guys” it’s me. I don’t really care what you think of Rep. Kern, I think her talk was disgusting. I’ve already explained what I think about your comments with regard to people from the South. I’m not defending her or them, only calling out what I think was a negative thing to say. Try this:
I’m sorry, I see the “most of them aren’t” as patronizing and the comment as perpetuating a stereotype. You obviously feel otherwise, so let’s agree to disagree.
Sure, I’ll agree to disagree, but first I just have to say this.
How dare you put tones in my sentences that I did not put there.
Sure, “most of them aren’t” COULD be patronizing, but this is the internet, there is no inflection, no body language to go by.
In other words, YOU layered that into my words, I didn’t put it there, you read between lines I didn’t write and found a hidden meaning.
That speaks volumes about how you communicate, how many other assumptions do you make about people you don’t know? How many other times do you layer in your own bias to what other people are trying to tell you?
David, you’re a smart guy and a great writer (and no, that was sincere, in case you were wondering) but you have got to learn to stop shooting first and asking questions later.
This forum, and others like it is supposed to be a bridge of sorts between gays and our opponents, don’t be so busy trying to connect to the opponents that you burn up the gay side of the bridge.
Now who is reading intent that is not there?
Jason, I don’t consider your statement to have anything to do with “the gay side of the bridge.” And I would have, and have, responded the same way to someone 10 years ago – to anyone. I just think the statement had bigoted overtones, regardless of how you might have meant it. Perhaps you could just think before making similar statements in the future, instead of showing moral outrage at my comments over it.
Boo,
“We’ve learned that Benjamin Paige is a rather prominent up-and-coming member of Denver’s gay community”
I’m very confused. This guy wrote that awful piece and the local gay community didn’t hold him or the paper accountable?
You know she has a point. The City Council of Eureka Springs was taken over by homosexual activists. It used to be a resort known for Christian entertainment. When the new council convened, they announced that it would no longer be known as a Christian resort but a city selling peace, relaxation, history and sex.
Jason, I stand by my comments that followed, however looking over my original reaction, it was rather strong and I apologize for that. And on one point you are correct, I need to take more time before I react.
Full disclosure: half my family is from the Deep South.
I’m very confused. This guy wrote that awful piece and the local gay community didn’t hold him or the paper accountable?
All’s I know: the article appeared a couple days ago. The paper issued a press release, appearing on their website, where the publisher apologized, but made no mention of the author. Then today the apology press release disappeared from their website. If there was local reaction, I haven’t seen it, but I didn’t really have a chance to look. The only demands for accountability that I’ve seen have come from trans people, but like I said, haven’t really looked too widely.
And as far as Lynn Conway’s editorial comments, I have no opinion cause I don’t really know if he’s considered “up and coming” or not.
And as of right now, Benjamin Paige is still listed on the site as the guy who does the “Homo-razzi” feature where this appeared.
If you have the URLs of before it was cleansed, send them to me at david@exgaywatch.com.
Charles do you have, like, a source for that? That the city council of Eureka Springs wants the city to sell sex?
Been there, it’s a beautiful place, long before the “homo activists” took over, and I have trouble believing that’s what they said.
Charles said:
Well thank you Charles, for helping to provide another piece of the puzzle. It would appear Rep. Kern got at least some of her information from an anti-gay AFA (is that redundant?) video named “They’re Coming To Your Town.” The line attributed to the council is so absurd it is being debated over at the urban legend busting site Snopes. The video suggests that that many areas of the country are being “taken over” by gays and lesbians, very similar to what Rep. Kern said in the second half her speech above.
While Eureka Springs does look like a nice place to visit for just about anyone (even UFO enthusiasts apparently), there certainly is no dearth of Christian references on their website (31) as opposed to (3) gay. And that aside, I would reject the false dichotomy implied, mainly that one can either be gay or Christian, but not both.
So do you have a reference to prove this alleged statement by the council, Charles? Even assuming they did, I prefer it to the one made above.
oh….my goodness. i will see if i can get some “inside” scoopage on this person from my cuz, one of the DEMOCRAT reps. here…
it’s sad that he has to sit in the room with this woman every day….
Here in OK, by the way, our elementary school textbooks call us a Southwestern state. 😉
OH….and it’s also worth mentioning that we do have one openly gay (Democrat) representative in the OK house…also from an OKC district…I’d love to get his reaction to this…
Her whole argument pivots on her religion. If she is so concerned about gays taking over the country, as an Orthodox Catholic I am concerned about Fundamental Evangelicals taking over politics. They want to revert back to a time when the Church and State were one, and if anyone picks up a history book they will find that that kind of combination is lethal. The RCC proved it, John Calvin proved it, Luther proved it, and the list goes on. What an insult to the founding fathers of this country who purposely divided Church and State so that we could be free to worship as we please and not have the Church dictate the function of the State.
According to those Fundamentalist, isn’t the Anti-Christ supposed to be a religious and political leader combined anyway? I mean, that’s what the flack is about the popes, they are suppose to be the anti-Christs according to the Fundamentalists. So why on God’s green earth would they want to have Church and State mixed? Wouldn’t that create their own anti-Christ
The sad thing is that, as a politician, she should be educated and unbiased, and she obviously is neither. I don’t care if she is from Oklahoma or New York City, ignorance knows no boundaries.
If a Democracy is going to work we have to have educated people who elect educated people. Ignorant people live in fear of the unknown, and it only breeds ignorance. But what is sad is when politicians are uneducated and ignorant as well. Add bigotry to the mix and you’ve got disaster.
First of all, Islam is NOT a threat to our country, and I am shocked that such a statement would be said by an elected official.
Second, if this woman really thinks homosexuality is more of a threat than terrorism, than she needs to go visit the ruins of 9/11 in New York.
Sally Kerns’ thoughts are ANTI-AMERICAN and ANTI-CHRISTIAN.
Y’all,
I know we want to be careful not to insult folks when we try to defend ourselves, but let’s not get bogged down by infighting.
The fact is that this Representative is using bad studies to malign the gay community and then hiding behind her religious beliefs.
The sad thing is that she does not even know that the data she cites (that she claims is indisputably true) is untrue propaganda.
And on that note, thank you ex-gay watch for being one of the only few places to catch on to the fact that she cited Paul Cameronesque type lies in her speech and to say so.
Obviously, David, my statement was verbatim from City Council member Joyce Zeller included in the link you posted.
…thanks
Yes. And an elected politician should be educated enough to know that. Before she starts shootin’ off her mouth she should know where here sources are and if they are accurate or not.
And as a Christian she should do the same.
I think that she would have said the same thing in a bigger venue. She seemed pretty comfortable with the subject and her opinions. Also, the way she kept rattling things off makes me think this is one of her canned spiels. I would bet she has made this same speech many times.
I wouldn’t advise anyone to hold their breath waiting for an apology from this politician either.
I totally agree, john.
I would like to see someone ask her where she received her information.
The Apostle Paul wrote in
1 Timothy 1:8-11 & 2 Timothy 4:2-4
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
One of the messages the Apostle Paul is saying in these verses: Laws that forbid among other things, lying, murder, kidnapping, and homosexuality are not only “good” and “sound doctrine” they are also according “to the glorious gospel of the blessed God”. One reason that makes these verses vitally important to our time is the definitions of a couple words. The Greek word “whoremonger”, is pornos. It means a male prostitute, (Zodiates, 4205). The other phrase, “them that defile themselves with mankind”, is one Greek compound word. It is arsenokoites , and it means, “a man that lies in bed with another man”, (Zodiates, 733); these definitions are important to our present time in light of the warning the Apostle Paul writes in his second epistle to Timothy. In 2 Timothy 4:2-4 he writes:
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The Apostle Paul warns that the time was coming when people would no longer believe sound doctrine, i.e. laws that forbid homosexuality, but they would gather around and listen to teachers who would accommodate their lusts. There are denominations out there that proclaim homosexuality to be simply one of the varied orientations that make up human sexuality. There are people who flock to these teachers to have their ears tickled. They turn away from the truth of the word of God concerning homosexuality and turn to listen to myths rather than God’s Word.
Jesus is LORD!
Don
Don, you’re welcome to comment constructively here, but your lengthy, off-topic sermonizing is not welcome.
Boo, it is almost out of topic, but many thanks for highlighting the article here. What Benjamin Paige said is really out. I wished I had the opportunity to affirm my identity and had the support of my parents at age 7.
It is mind boggling why he went into transphobic mode in a LGBT mag. IMHO, it could be because of the recent spat within the T community in regards to transsexuals and transgenders. It may also be an attempt to gain points for an alliance with the religious right groups.
*sigh* Sadly, I’m an Oklahoman. I can’t believe we let a woman like this have any sort of political power. She’s a troll of the worst kind.
Correct me if I’m wrong Dave, but Don’s comment didn’t seem out of line or any longer than some other comments on this thread. Unless “sermonizing”, i.e. using scripture to help make a point (in this case to defend Rep. Kern), is not allowed on this site?
Just to be clear, opining that his post was on-topic does not necessarily subscribe me to the point(s) made in it.
If there was a defence of Rep Kern in there, I missed it. It didn’t make reference to even a single point from the post or the rest of the discussion. It had all the hallmarks of a hit-and-run cut-and-paste job, something sadly familiar from people who have no desire to engage in the content of the thread, but simply wish to preach.
If I overlooked some evidence in Don’s post that he was sincerely engaging in the discussion, I’m open to correction.
Charles said:
It may not have been terribly long, but then it wasn’t a comment either – it was simply large blocks of scripture formed into a speech. While this is an open forum, we do require that comments actually be written by the commenter to address an issue. Unless the Apostle Paul is typing on the other end of Don’s keyboard, this one doesn’t qualify.
In addition, nothing in scripture could justify Rep. Kern’s comments because she was quoting bogus research with false conclusions – scripture is rather harsh about lies as well. And unless one sees references in Revelation about Pittsburgh being taken over by “the homosexuals” then I really don’t see how any of this defends Kern at all.
I have to admit, I’m rather puzzled that Don appears to be writing what can only be called rather simplistic “mini-position papers” filled with his own take on scripture and then selling them. He has every right to do so, but from my early days in the Church to now, I’ve just never seen someone do that. They include titles like “The Lying Vanity of Homosexual Orientation” and “Armageddon and the Palestinian State.” Nice hobby, Don.
Charles said:
So you have no verified source for the comment then (other than fund raising efforts by a vile organization)? And if it was said, do you know the context? Was it a joke? Satire? Lament?
More importantly, do you really want to know or is it more convenient to just repeat it on websites like XGW until everyone thinks it is true?
I used to hear that kind of junk all the time in various churches I went to. I would invite Rep. Kerns to consider that God is love and perfect love casts out all fear. Her statements are full of fear. That’s what bigotry of all types really comes down to.
But of course, politicians will say anything to get re-elected.
I went through an ex-gay ministry years back, and I am still dealing with some of the issues I had afterwards. It’s so hard to find comfort in faith of any sort when people say things like this. Do these people honestly believe that their sort of faith is attractive to those who don’t already believe it?
From the AFA video “They’re Coming To Your Town.”
@13:15
I included that last part just to show that their main complaint about this portion seems to be about some possible promotion of “sex,” but not any specific “gay sex” promotion. That part of their complaint may be valid, I haven’t had time to research this, but the propaganda part seems to be that they’re lumping this in with their disdain for the fact that they passed a DP registry to being with.
I couldn’t find the article they cited above, even on the newspaper’s website, but the first article link that came up from that newspaper was the main thrust of this video’s complaint:
Proposed Eureka Springs Ordinance Causes Uproar
April 26, 2007
It’s a short article, but I loved this quote:
So that’s as much as I’ve got, but this quote from Jeff Johnson above still needs to be verified or refuted:
Hey speaking of Don’s comments here, maybe you should create a topic discussing the ramifications of fundamentalists using the Bible to abuse and denigrate others all in the name of Christ like Don has done. Isn’t it this extremist fundamentalist interpretation of scripture one of the major roots of hate, division and the real danger to our diverse and pluralistic society? Do we have any Greek scholars here to refute Don’s attempts at fear-mongering using the words of Paul? The thing that I detest about Fundamentalists is that they are so brainwashed with their fear based indoctrination (as taught and enforced by their ministers) that they don’t see any other possibilities than what they believe is absolute. Even if there were countless other studies that showed that Paul never did mean “homosexuality” in and of itself (the orientation) or the committed relationship between two people of the same gender; they will not be swayed to see the difference. A person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Their belief system is toxic and creates dis-ease and immense stupidity/ignorance in our society. These kinds of interpretations of Pauline doctrine are not only damaging to our society but they are divisive and downright wrong. It is hurtful at best and deeply damaging to millions of people at worst through injustice, inequality, shame and even through suicide.
I can bet you that the Oklahoma Representative in this excellent YouTube article has been indoctrinated into this kind of belief system, otherwise she would never use these shameful and toxic words like “gay lifestyle”, etc. Shame on her. If I had been there I would have walked out and would have encouraged all of those who would go with me to do the same.
Why do those wierd symbols appear on top of my “gay sex?”
“Do we have any Greek scholars here to refute Don’s attempts at fear-mongering using the words of Paul?”
We don’t really need them. don’s claims have been made many times, in all of their tiresome length. No one really knows that these words mean. Pornos certainly does not mean ‘male prostitute’, and if it does, then we are not talking about homosexuality at all, but prostitution. Likewise, “arsenokoi(tes)” literally means ‘male bed’ and not “a man who lies in bed with another man.’ “Malakoi”, also in Paul, means, apparently, ‘soft’. Not effeminate, not homosexual, but SOFT
And on and on and on and on. Paul’s words are condemnations of homosex ONLY if you believe out the outset that they are. Quoting myself from and earlier post:
“The bible may or may not condemn some aspects of gay sex. It is amazing to me how unclear G manages to be on the subject, when he is so clear on so many other subjects. So coy: “sleep the sleep of a woman” (literally from Leviticus– do you know what it means? I don’t.) to “abusers of themselves with mankind” (KJV on words which we really don’t know the meaning of)– though apparently, Biblical scholar Don does.
Don, If it were as important to G as it is to you, he would have said: “two men or two women together shall not have sex in and way, shape, or form. They will not be naked together and touching each others’ skin. They certainly will not be bumping nasties. Penis into vagina, that’s it. And you shouldn’t enjoy it too much.”
Now, that is clarity befitting the creator of the universe. “Sleep the sleep of a woman”? Your guess is as good as mine. He was pretty clear about adultery. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” That’s clear, but the opposition to adultery is usually limited to “Tsk Tsk” and not “let’s pass constitutional amendments to make sure your family isn’t recognized as one and your kids don’t get health insurance.”
Sorry, Don. If you are oging to pass yourself off as a scholar, at leats have the courtesy to BE one.
Oh, Emproph, those symbols are also on top of MY gay sex. I think it means, y’know, we’re one of THEM, y’know, Gay. Oooooooooooooh, Daddy!
It’s part of a plugin I am trying that is supposed to change the vowels in certain keywords to prevent the site from getting categorized incorrectly. Our discussions involve certain terms that could categorize us as an XXX site, which is not good for work filters, etc. It looks like the dictionary file might be a little too extensive and I’m not sure I like it anyway. I’ll try to tweak it or just remove it.
Oh thank goodness, and here I thought I was having symbolic gay sex alone.
“Our discussions involve certain terms that could categorize us as an XXX site, which is not good for work filters, etc.”
Understood. However, does this filter also categorize the term “straight sex” as an XXX site?
Because that almost brings it back to topic. Kern is attemping to sexualize all things gay, to the exclusion of all things straight that may also be sexual.
And her “education” bill, is trying to suppress one message of this over another. And at this point, clearly based on supremacist religious bias.
This is a pragmatic response – we have no control over the systems used to filter sites at various organizations. And actually, I don’t think “gay” should be in the list – it came with the plugin. But if you think about it, you will recall other terms that are much less vague concerning categorization 😉
We are just trying to help make sure that anyone who wants to read and comment on XGW can do so without needless barriers. I’m not certain this is going to help, but we are giving it a try.
I don’t need to know what people say behind closed doors. I already know. I read comments they leave on blogs, newspaper articles, etc.
The overwhelming majority is anti-gay. Of those, most leave bible passages which they have just interpreted to support their viewpoint.
Of course those people don’t exactly exude the compassion of their supposed religion – just hate. Funny how something that has NO effect on them (unless their kids end up being gay) seems to get them so riled up.
When heterosexuals are model citizens with divorce rate of less than 10% (rather than the 53% they currently have), don’t abuse, neglect or kill their children, commit adultery, I might consider the
‘sanctity of marriage’ argument they shove down our throats.
But since that is not the case, I don’t quite see why they really care what 5% of the population is doing other than paying taxes so the heterosexual’s children can be educated, provided with police and fire protection and have their roads paved and maintained.
I think there are other more important issues that heterosexuals should focus on rather than fighting people who love someone of the same sex.
What destroys societies is ignorance. The Roman empire accepted homosexuality from the previous culture of the Greeks, the Etruscans, the Minoans, and the empires previous to them. These empires lasted thousands of years not decades.Ignorance of pollution (lead tainted water plumbing). Greed that extended territory beyond the bounds of ability to control. And the alienation and persecution of minorities led to the downfall of empires. All forms of ignorance. It is appalling that a person like this has achieved a position of leadership in this country at any level. I Have never in 60 years been threatened in any way by a person who is gay. The only people who I would consider consistent with native born terrorists have been primarily white, prejudiced, and ignorant of the fact that the freedoms of our government are meant for everyone!
Just because Rep Sally Kern speaks out against homosexuality does not mean she is speaking hate. All people live lives that are imperfect. This includes heterosexuals and homosexuals. God speaks clearly against avoiding a life of sin in the bible and life choices that should avoided, including homosexuality. People, wake up and realize that just because someone who believes the bible and speaks against a lifestyle does not make them hateful. They are simply suggesting that people make a conscious choice to obey God in their living. I am thankful that people are finally speaking a voice and taking a stand against the homosexual community’s agenda of indoctrinating our society that the lifestyle is good, and suggesting that anyone who does not agree is filled with hate. The reality is that a life lived filled in sin is destructive and against Gods commands regardless of whether the foolish agree or not. Even if you don’t agree with the bible, secular health statistics shows that homosexuality is not a healthy choice. Even Matt Foreman, executive director for the national gay and lesbian task force labeled HIV as a gay disease in a speech on Feb 14, 2008. This as an acknowledgment that the lifestyle is bringing death to it’s people.
First of all, thank you for bringing this video to our attention. I called Represenative Kern’s office this morning, and left a rather lengthy voicemail. I then followed up with the following email:
Representative Kern,
People like you are the reason that there is a higher rate of suicide among gay and lesbian people. People like you are the reason children need gay straight alliances at school in the first place. People like you are giving the Christian faith a very bad reputation.
Do you honestly believe that people “choose” to be gay, Sally? Are you truly that ignorant? Why would anybody choose to be a second class citizen, and to be the victims of bigots such as yourself? Gay people are WORSE than AlQueada???? Most gay people I have met are actually very nice people. I have yet to read a story about a gay person strapping on a suicide belt, so that he can blow up a bunch of straight people. To my knowledge, no gay person has ever beat up a straight person, tied him to a fence post, and left him to die in the cold. I haven’t heard of a gay person trying to blow up a straight bar…
If you really believe people “choose” to be gay, you most also admit that you “chose” to be straight. Are we all born bisexual, then one day choose to turn off the physical and sexual attractions towards one sex and focus on the other sex? Is that how it worked for you, Sally? Do you remember the day you chose to be straight? I’m sure that would make for interesting conversation on the House floor.
I can’t speak for you, but I was not born bisexual. I was not born heterosexual. I am what God made me, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I hope you will consider issuing an apology for the ridiculous comments you made. I will say a prayer for you, and hope that one day you can try to treat all Americans with respect and dignity. The last word in our Pledge of Allegiance is “All”, not “Heterosexuals”.
Sincerely,
Billy Slocumb
I don’t know why people are shocked at her comments. She believes in Bible and she is not being hypocrite about it.
My concern is when will we grow out of these religions?
“Jason, I don’t consider your statement to have anything to do with “the gay side of the bridge.”
David, I’m alluding to the fact that I’ve noticed you **appear** to have more patience and understanding for the opposition than you do for people who are, essentially, on *your side*. That’s what I was getting at, and that’s my impression of this situation. Bridges are good, but you have to maintain both sides.
I also figured that since I’ve been posting here for close to a year, I’d get just a tensy bit more slack than that. And the gay community is too small to spend so much time infighting, we loose momentum very easily that way. We can’t control the other gay people around us, so we might as well accept them.
“And I would have, and have, responded the same way to someone 10 years ago – to anyone. I just think the statement had bigoted overtones, regardless of how you might have meant it. Perhaps you could just think before making similar statements in the future, instead of showing moral outrage at my comments over it.”
My outrage was over the fact that you didn’t seem to notice that you were layering in your own thoughts into what I said — rather than reacting to what I actually posted. It’s all about perspective. I’ve been just as guilty of letting my mood color what I read, rather than taking something at face value.
I do think. In fact, I’m often accused in daily life of OVERthinking most things. I edit posts several times before I post them. I avoid using words unnecessarily, and make an effort to be careful of everything I put out there.
I encourage you to have me banned from this site if you ever think my posts are offensive. I’m here to discuss the issues at hand, not defend my word choices for days on end. I’d rather be banned.
Of course Ms. Kern could “speak out against homosexuality” without being speaking hate. But she didn’t.
Once you claim that homosexuality is worse than terrorism, it’s pretty clear you’ve left intellectual debate and jumped head first into the hate pool.
And when you foolishly claim that “the lifestyle is bringing death to it’s people”, there’s a very high likelihood that your motivation is the same.
in quick response to TL, I would argue that ancient cultural acceptance of sexualities has nothing to do with cultural acceptance of diverse sexuality today. The romans, greeks et al also revered pederasty as a sacred institution, as much so as we consider marriage today. But today pederast acts will get you thrown in jail, and at the bottom of the prison food chain at that. One of the reasons the Greeks held (male) “homosexuality” (which I put in quotes because it consisted mostly of pederasty) in such high esteem is that men were higher beings than women, so it made sense to seek out an elite male to love than another woman. In addition, it was considered a rite of passage for a boy to take an older male lover. That is called “abuse” today. This “acceptance” of different sexual unions occurred because those of my own gender were so looked down upon. Not as much is known about female homosexuality back then.
But I still whole-heartedly agree with you that Rep. Kern is wrong in that civilizations actually thrived while accepting different sexualities. But that is a moot point anyway. Greek culture thrived on pederasty and slavery, things I do not condone. Likewise, our own culture thrives on destroying the Earth, another thing I do not condone. One civilization can’t be judged by a singular acceptance or persecution of one thing. It’s just another scare tactic used by evangelical fundamentalists. How can she not see how she is like the fundamentalist Islamic terrorists in her manner of speaking?
John: you are the second person to inform the rest of us that we are less than perfect sinners. I have three challenges for you:
1) Please show me in your book where you, John, have been exempted from Jesus’ commandments about other people’s sins. Hint: don’t look in the gospels. Jesus had a different opinion about it. look in Paul.
2) Read the posting i made on 3/9 at 4:49 pm. This was in response to Don, who also felt that he could drop his biblical pants for us, but who never bothered to respond to my basic question. Can you respond to it?
3) Consider these statements:
Christianity is a cancer on society that must be removed. Christianity is worse than islamic terrorism. Christians want to indoctrinate your 2 year olds with their particular brand of fairy tale. Chrisitianity caused the fall of the roman empire. Big fat Chrisitnas in southern states whop are overweight and eat lots of fried food have heart disease and die young.
Does that sound like hate speech to you? Does it sound familiar to you? Would it sound more familiar to you if you substituted the word Jew for Christian? Would it sound more like Hitler than Jesus? Was hitler a moral guy just expressing his “moral disapproval” of Judaism?
This swollen hemorrhoid of a “real” Christian is absolutely entitled to state her moral disapproval of gay people, as silly, wrong-headed, counter-productive, hypocritical, uncritical, immoral, and unloving as it is. What she is not entitled to do is tell lies, advocate pain and punishment and death, and deny me the basic humanity that she assumes she herself has.
Personally, given her attitudes towards people she doesn’t know and who have done her no harm, and about whom she clearly knows absolutely nothing– she just “disapproves” of them– well, i would be no better than she is if I questioned her basic humanity. So, i won’t.
This is what i think, john. Your inability to distinguish between “moral disapproval” and sentiments that are just dripping with venom and hate is a good indication that your moral sense is no more developed than hers is. I think Jesus probably had you in mind when he said “Judge not lest ye be judged.”
So, john, I would love to hear from you. Please explain how “Moral disapproval” in the Bible translates to Cancer on society.
Jason,
Let me acknowledge first for other readers that we seem to be beating a dead horse here, and if not for the open forum status I would probably not participate.
I’ve already said that I agree my initial response was too abrupt, but I continue to say that bringing up the stereotype about people from the south at all in relation to the comments from Kern was unnecessary, and simply helps perpetuate such generalizations. You could be Alan Chambers saying that or Mel White, I would have reacted the same way.
Perhaps your response is really coming from attitudes you hold about me for other reasons that this particular exchange?
Do you have an example of this so we can discuss it?
PS: Totally OT, if you can, please settle on one username. It reduces confusion. Thanks.
I’m not very satisfied with Rep. Kern’s response to the reaction to her comments…I’d be hesitant to call it anything like an apology. She doesn’t defend her actual words, but instead she defends a generalized statement of her beliefs about homosexuality, which, in light of the very specific things she said, I find wholly inadequate.
I want to see her explain her exact words; I want to see her try to defend the terrorism bit, the cancer bit, etc; seeing her fall back on the classic “look, these are my beliefs and I’m entitled to think that homosexuality is sinful” fluff.
Riz Said:
Sure she is Riz, she a flaming hypocrite.
If she truly believed in the Bible, she’d be speaking out against the sinful and damnable adultery of remarriage FIRST.
She’d also be openly advocating the Biblical mandate of the genocide of gay men, as per Leviticus 20:13.
But she’s not. Ergo, flaming hypocrite.
Great points Emily – yes, how can Kern not see that her views are very similar to Islamic terrorists – as well as the Nazis, who feared the Jews were “taking over.”
The Christian Right’s construction of gays and lesbians as economically privileged (and thus invulnerable to discrimination) and “taking over” is ominously familiar.
john, on March 10th, 2008 at 9:18 am Said:
“Just because Rep Sally Kern speaks out against homosexuality does not mean she is speaking hate.”
—Oh goodie, let’s see what else you have to say.
“All people live lives that are imperfect.”
—Such a sage. How very-thank you for sharing this profound wisdom with us.
“This includes heterosexuals and homosexuals.”
—OMG, WOW! being homosexually oriented myself, I had no idea that imperfection was NOT based on sexual orientation itself!
“God speaks clearly against avoiding a life of sin in the bible and life choices that should avoided, including homosexuality.”
—So now you speak, without qualification, for God, and therefore infinity, and therefore the very nature of infinite renewal — miracles themselves.
Ok, groovemeister, let’s see what else you have to say…
“People, wake up and realize that just because someone who believes the bible and speaks against a lifestyle does not make them hateful.”
—Lifestyle = sexually promiscuous…
“They are simply suggesting that people make a conscious choice to obey God in their living.”
—Ok, and?
“I am thankful that people are finally speaking a voice and taking a stand against the homosexual community’s agenda of indoctrinating our society that the lifestyle is good, and suggesting that anyone who does not agree is filled with hate.”
—Now we see what you mean. You’re contending that EVERY SINGLE same-gender attracted individual on this planet has an agenda of indoctrinating our society that the sexually promiscuous lifestyle is good.
My my John, that does sound ominous. What else was it you said in regard to that?
“and suggesting that anyone who does not agree is filled with hate”
—Dear me, yes John, you poor persecuted “Christian” you. How hateful of anyone to call you, and the likes of Representative Kern, on your intentionally sought out slander?
Oh wait, there’s more?
“The reality is that a life lived filled in sin is destructive and against Gods commands regardless of whether the foolish agree or not. Even if you don’t agree with the bible, secular health statistics shows that homosexuality is not a healthy choice. Even Matt Foreman, executive director for the national gay and lesbian task force labeled HIV as a gay disease in a speech on Feb 14, 2008. This as an acknowledgment that the lifestyle is bringing death to it’s people.“
—So, according to that “homosexuality is not a healthy choice” little tidbit, I take it that you not only believe that the very fact that someone is same-gender attracted, automatically makes them HIV+, but that in addition to that “fact,” you also believe that all lesbians must also have HIV, and are somehow spreading it sans penises?
~~~
“and suggesting that anyone who does not agree is filled with hate”
—John, when you and Rep. Kern insinuate that every single homosexual human being on the planet is HIV+ and is spreading it, it’s about disagreement of reality.
You’re not only in factual error John, but you’re in factual error intentionally John — as obviously you have access to Google — but you also claim this error in the name of the epitome of love, Jesus. — and this John, is what makes it hateful on your and Rep. Kern’s part.
This was, of course, in Old Testament times before Jesus died for our sins which allowed grace from God.
That the opportunity of grace through salvation was established however does not negate the principal of the law… Just a thought.
So killing gays was morally okay (commanded by God, no less) back then, but not now? And to think I’ve heard people say it’s the gays who have no moral anchor!
No it’s not, it’s an acknowledgment that, because of social factors, HIV infection is a problem that faces the Gay community, and is something that we need to deal with. It’s an important thing to say because so many of us have developed a knee-jerk reaction to attacks from social conservatives regarding the AIDS problem in out community that distracts us from dealing with the real issue.
The reason those attacks are distracting is because they’re irrational and offensive, and the reason for that is because social conservatives have a long standing history of just not getting it. They assert that AIDS is some guaranteed consequence of any type of homosexual lifestyle, that HIV infection is somehow inherently tied to homosexuality. They completely ignore the social factors.
It’s not inherently tied to lesbianism – not even in the most bigoted, stilted, Cameronesque logic.
Charles said:
Ah, yes. The ‘unchanging God only partially changed Its mind’ argument.
Care to expound?
Yeah but you guys are women, not real homosexuals… 😉
John:
If the Bible spoke clearly there would not be thousands upon thousands of divisions within Christianity alone.
Again, when you base your faith on a book and not on the living God you create problems.
John, I doubt anything she said concerning homosexuality could be put into a love song, or used for a Valentine greeting card. If she is not speaking hate, please advise us of the new definition for hate because I missed that memo.
Amazing Rep. Kern embroils everyone in debate. But when a GLBT mag in CO slanders a young child just trying to go to school it geta a fwe lines and then dies. Could be that the mag acted quickly to retract and apologize even though the apology disappeared so quickly? Could be that the idea of a gay reporter writing what anyone would call hate speech about a child’s experience of gender is not much of a reason for outrage and pursuit of the roots of such hate WITHIN our own community?
If only it was the only mag to take a hostile view of children identifying their gender and parents responding in a loving, supportive way. If only… But it is not. It seems indicative of the disconnect between the T and the rest of the alphabetic equation that we identify our comunity with.
Biased, hateful ignorance within our own family, a dirty little secret that Mr. Paige of the Gayzette in Denver let slip into the light of day.
Now what do we do?
Lisa,
Please find for me where the author released a public statement defending his statement. Find for me where his fellow writers gave him a standing ovation. Find for me where he’s claiming to have received death threats. Find for me where multi-million dollar ministries chimed in. For that matter, find for me where the author was elected as a representative or even where there was a living soul who defends the author’s article.
And while you are looking, you may find your answer as to why Kern is a story and the other is not.
I find it amazing, a state like Oklahoma, which has produced such note-worthy people like Will Rogers, Patty Paige, Maria Tallchief, Jim Thorpe, Vera Miles, Garth Brooks, Vince Gill, and Reba McIntire, Clint Howard as well as others, can also produce a hateful, vile, un-Christian woman (obviously not a lady) as Sally Kern. I feel compassion for all the wonderful Oklahomans who are having to face this.
I just want to say that if gay people weren’t doing anything wrong they would not take such offense to people’s statements like that from Sally Kern.
Gays need to understand that we are not attacking the person but the lifestyle is what is being targeted. I’m sure that there are many nice, even wonderful people who are living this lifestyle, no one is saying they are not nice. The lifestyle, however is wrong.
She is to be commended for standing up for Christians everywhere to feel this way. She is to be commended for standing up for God and the Bible and not letting “political correctness” (whatever you think that should be) get in the way of her opinions and beliefs.
For people who say they are “gay christians”, I’d be interested in knowing exactly how that works, same for gay ministers. I don’t see why God would call on them to preach His word if you are living a lifestyle that completely contradicts It.
I pray that God have mercy on this country and the world for that matter.
Yes she should be commended by any1 that believes it.
What i take issue with is where those beliefs are her ‘jugdement’ on the issue.
What does this imply? That she will base off her anti-gayism not through logic/reason or anything in between. Rather, through religion, and to base ‘legislature’ on beliefs is equivalent to ‘shoving ones beliefs down other ppls throats’. WOuldn’t you agree?
Her ‘science’ reminds me of the evolution vs creationism ‘debate’. Where her conclusion is beforehand, that gays are evil… and then seeks for information to back it up. Rather than seek the information/stats and then come to a conclusion(might be gays are wrongdoers, might not).
Well, personally, I’m celibate because of my beliefs and intend to stay that way. I’m still gay, though, simply because calling myself anything else would be dishonest about where my attractions are. As for other gay Christians who aren’t celibate, I still think they’re Christians. I mean, if female pastors and divorcees can still be Christians (even though there are more verses that speak out against them than there are for homosexuals), then I see no reason why gays can’t still be followers of Christ. Personally, I think they could stand to be more faithful to Scripture in terms of their sexual behavior. But that’s an issue of faithfulness, not of salvation, and I’m not to judge either way.
So being offended is proof of guilt? Way to bully the accused, Amy, did you go to the same charm school as Ms. Kern?
We take offense because it’s offensive to call someone a terrorist, to call someone a cancer. There is a huge difference between my life and someone who flys an airplane into a building.
We were also offensive because a public servant was insulting part of the public.
First of all, Amy, there is no “gay lifestyle”, that’s a buzzword created to lump us all together, as if all gay relationships were the same, all gay couples enjoyed the same activites, it’s false and misleading.
Amy, YOU need to understand that we do consider our sexuality to be a hat we’re wearing. It’s more like a baldspot we refuse to cover. (And there’s nothing wrong with being bald). Since you know NOTHING of our lives, you cannot honestly try to tell us you’re attacking our “lifestyle”. Take the log out of your own eye, sister, before you go telling me about my life. Let he (or she) who is without sin cast the first stone. That’s God’s way of telling you to mind your own business. The faults you see in others are just a way for you to avoid dealing with your own problems.
Seems to me that Sally Kern wouldn’t know Jesus if he fell out of the sky and landed on her.
Ok, Amy, you’ve had your say.
You came to a site and said things designed to be arrogant, offensive, and dismissive. You can congratulate yourself that you “went and told them homosexuals”. You can smugly sit with your certainty of anonymity and bark words at people you will never have to meet or look in the eyes.
You are not one tiny bit interested in why there are gay Christians. If you were really even in the slightest “interested in knowing how that works”, you’d contact your local gay-supportive church. But, though you claim such an interest, you weren’t speaking truthfully. You just sought to be dismissive.
So now you can go back to your barcalounger and put on TBN and tell yourself that you are warrior for God.
Or, perhaps instead you could actually turn on your brain and use your ears and eyes. Instead of coming here to lecture and condemn, you could listen and learn.
Oh, what am I saying? You’ve already popped your head back into the comfort and familiarity of your rear and can’t hear me now anyway.
Amy:
Well Amy, be specific, what are we doing wrong? I guess when people insult you, you just smile and are as happy as a clam. When people say things against your race, your religion, your beliefs, your family, your country, you just smile and stay calm as a feather.
How would you like it if a law was passed so that non-Orthodox Christian worship would be against the law?All Baptists, Born Again Christians, etc. would be outlawed because, at least for many Christians, those branches of Christianity are considered heretical. And Amy, how would you like Catholics and Angelicans and Eastern Orthodox Christians tell you that we Orthodox don’t hate you we just hate your lifestyle and your theology.
Which lifestyle? Be specific. Not all of us go cruising at bars trying to pick up a cheap thrill like some kind of TeleEvangelist.
.
As an Orthodox, I do not commend her for her views as for me they are heretical. As a Gay Christian I do not commend her views because they are against the message of Christ.
Why do Fundamentalists always believe they need to stand up for their god. Is he weak? Does he need help? What kind of god do you worship?
How can living the Gospel be a contradiction in being a Gay Christian? The question is back to you – how can someone truely claim to be a Christian and yet shun someone from worshiping God as they are and not how the congregration expects them to be?
I do too. I also pray he give us wisdom since it is lacking so much in this country and in the Christian community.
I read all this and don’t know whether to laugh or cry inside. All the bashing back and forth going on seems silly, yet also indicative of everyone’s basic nature….to justify our own opinions, rationalize our own values, and attack anyone who is different from ourselves.
The fundamental issue that is being debated here is what the biblical view of the proper use of our sex glands is all about. Those who are attracted to others of the opposite sex assume that anyone who feels differently is wrong, and they use their bibles to prove it. Those who are attracted to others of the same sex feel that this is normal and are tired of having to defend themselves.
I don’t believe that clear-thinking persons are intending to be attacking others, rather they are attempting to disagree with the sexual behavior choices being in same-sex relationships. Their commentary is often suggested to be filled with hate, even though most of the time it is not.
It’s time to stop bashing everyone who has a different opinion.
The important thing for ALL people to realize is that if you are going to use the bible for developing your viewpoint, then ALL have fallen, and ALL are in need of forgiveness. I think that the whole point is not to debate who’s right and who’s wrong…because where all wrong.
For me, as a man, while I am completely disinterested in other men, I am far from living according to Gods intended plan because I have had sex with several women who are not my wife.
The bible was never intended to be used for others to observe the behavior of another and pass judgement, but rather to show each person what Gods best plan is for them so they may know the plans that he has for each of us.
I believe the bible is very clear that God did not make men to be with men, and he did not make women to be with women, but having said that, he also made one man to be with one woman.
Anything other than this choice is different than what we were designed to do, and we miss out on potential blessings.
As many have said, our sin does not separate us from our salvation for those who trust in Christ, it simply reminds of our humanity, and fallen condition.
Let’s stop worrying about each other’s lifestyles so much and focus on whether each person is pursuing the knowledge of God, and building up faith in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit will convict each person as he chooses.
No, Jim. The fundamental issue is not the biblical view of the use of our sex glands. The fundamental issue is that an elected official is using her position to promote her religious beliefs and to slander her constituents.
Really? That would assume that there is a God. And that ones religion is THE religion from which morality and truth is based off, which, keeping in mind the amount of religions there are… how can one oppose the existance of ‘moral relativity’. Of course.. this will not be fixed through religion, but rather.. a lack of.
I wonder… As long as theres such indoctrination by christian parents, it will take… a long time, imho.