Alan Chambers will be appearing on CNN tonight. The Exodus President will be interviewed by Wolf Blitzer on The Situation Room, following an article in today’s LA Times, in which Chambers disavows the “ex-gay” label:
It’s too neat, implying a clean break with the past, when he still struggles at times with homosexual temptation. “By no means would we ever say change can be sudden or complete,” Chambers said.
The article claims “new ground” in the debate over ex-gay therapy, hailing “new agreement” between ex-gays and their critics. The show airs between 4.00 and 6.00pm EST.
So, who is the critic of ex-gay programs that can give their side of the “new ground?”
This is not the first time I have had some qualms with the LA Times’ reporting on GLBT issues. In my opinion, they sometimes try to soften the rhetoric of those who oppose gay rights. In this case:
”
A leading conservative theologian outside the ex-gay movement recently echoed the view that homosexuality may not be a choice, but a matter of DNA. To the shock and anger of many of his constituents, the Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote that “we should not be surprised” to find a genetic basis for sexual orientation.”
Yes, many of his constituents were shocked and angered, and yes, this was a new position for him. But if someone reads this article without knowing the backstory, they would think he was being more tolerant towards homosexuals and their pursuit of happiness. The full story is that he actually wants to see a hormone patch developed which mothers can use to make sure possibly gay babies will turn out straight.
Sorry, here’s the link to the blog.
https://albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=891
That news item was only about 5 minutes. Chambers needs to tell all of the Exodus International supporters what he said on the CNN report.
It was amusingly interesting that the “rebuttal” for what Chambers said was by the spokesperson for Concerned Women for America was a man. That’s like the men who are the PR persons for anti-abortion groups.
Thanks for the L.A. Times article link. It’s about time the nationally read newspapers like the Times write about the real founder of Exodus:
From what I’ve seen of Chambers’ statements, he’s an expert doublespeaker. However, I don’t feel he does it out of a sinister motive. I really feel he’s lost in his own ex-gay prison. He can’t come out because he has a career, wife, and kids in the balance – but he clearly still struggles with same-sex attraction, no matter how “minimal” he says it is. A struggle’s a struggle. I think we can trust the article’s impression of Chambers because he’s released similar “kind-of-the-truth-but-not-really” statements in the past. I hope someone records the CNN show and posts it on youtube, because i don’t have cable.
Well, you can be pretty sure that if someone says their homosexual attraction is “minimal,” it is probably actually very strong.
Emily, I posted the entire transcript of the segment on the “Born Gay? Ex-Gay Leader Offers CNN An Elliptical Response” Topic section.
There was not that much to show.
thx Joe, i’m about to check it out. no matter how little there is to show, I still like to know what’s up.
Important point of clarification: I am not and have never claimed to be “the real founder of Exodus” I am only one of the co-founders. Our ministry, EXIT, hosted the first “Summit Conference” at Melodyland Hotline Center in Anaheim, CA in September of 1976.
A core group of people I consider “founders” (minisrty leaders like Frank Worthen, Robbi Kenney, Ron Dennis, Greg Reid, Jim Kaspar, Gary Cooper and I) along some 60 “delegates” voted to form EXODUS at that first conference. The rest, sadly, is history.
Apostle Paul writing to Christians in Ephesus:
“You must no longer walk as the [unbelievers] do, in the futility of their minds…
They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.
But that is not the way you learned Christ!– assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus,
to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and
to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and
to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.”
Sounds to me like Paul demanded a complete change.
Sonja Dalton says:
Sounds like a complete change is not within God’s plan with all the former ex-gays out there still gay Sonja. Some even worked closely with ex-gay organizations at one time. But you probably know that already at AFT.
Btw, Paul cannot demand anything. He was not the one crucified and risen. Only Jesus can renew people through the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul is but a man.
So ask yourself this: Am I a follower of Jesus or Paul?
Reverting to homosexuality is not within God’s plan. I suggest praying for their repentance before they arrive at the stage where God completely gives them over:
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
“If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? …It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Sonja,
If I remember correctly you are reading from Hebrews 6:4 – and you are misinterpreting it too:
The passages you quoted “refer to those who have apostatized – that is, those who after being baptized, have rejected Christ… Historically these verses have been used extensively in discussions of repentance. For example, Tertullian, the Montanists and other ancient schismatics used these verses to argue there is no repentance from apostasy. The Church holds that those who apostatize may repent and be brought back into the Church after a period of repentance.”
Leaving Ex-Gay programs, especially ones that were harming you and your family emotionally, have NOTHING to do with apostasy. Don’t confuse Ex-Gay groups with God!
Jay
Oh it’s Sonja
(for those unfamiliar with Sonja, she’s the one who indignantly commented on Dr. Throckmorton’s site that the Cheneys should have drove Mary from their family until she repented: “Mary needs to know that her WICKED behavior requires them to be divided from her. “)
Now Sonja has come here to rant and rave and basically be the worst posable example of a judgmental, hostile, and hateful Christian she can be. Oh goodie.
I challenge those here who are not Christian to hold off on thinking that this one woman with her message of condemnation is an ambassador of Christ or that the Good News message was all about severe punishment.
I challenge those here who are Christian to recall that we have been subjected to many Sonja’s in the past who show up with their selected scriptures and their heart hardened. We can only pray that the Holy Spirit opens her eyes to her own sinful self-righteousness and arrogance and convicts her of her evil ways.
We pray that she will come to see that she has been sent by Satan to seek discord among believers, to heap self-righteousness and condemnation on non-believers, and to portray the body of Christ as a hostile hateful force on Earth.
Timothy you are so right! The more we hear from people like Sonja and the subsequent actions they take from their beliefs , I find it literally rips the Body of Christ apart. They seek to divide rather than unite. Hate rather than love. I cannot see anything further from Christ’s true message of love and hope.
The way I see it I rather be a Christian gay man that asks the Lord to help me to love others, including those that seek to harm me physically, than to be a self-righteous, judgemental, I do no sin now, Christian. I cannot see any truth being as such. It bears no good fruit whatsoever.
Sonja is now ranting and raving over on Throckmorton’s blog. Man, does she have a chip on her shoulder or what?
And in her selective quoting, in the “…” is one of the great mysteries of Christianity – a scripture that suggests that the Law of Moses has been replaced by a new covenant. It talks about those who seek to return to sin through judging others, forgetting that Good News that it is God who forgives and judges.
It says that those who insult the Spirit of grace will fall into the hands of living God, not those who don’t live up to the Law of Moses. Note the contrast:
OK, that’s probably enough from me about theology
🙂
Thanks Timothy for the contrast. It makes more sense now. God is the judge of man. Not man the judge of man.
Why do some Christians feel the need to pull quotes from the Bible that are completely out of their original context? *sigh*
If you want to know what the epistle to the Hebrews is all about, I would urge you to simply read it rather than taking Timothy Kincaid’s word (or mine) about it. It’s not that mysterious…
[Mindless “preaching” and other blather removed.]
Moderator Note: That’s an excellent idea, too bad you spent 8 paragraphs doing just what you advised against. You are welcome to share your own beliefs here when they are germane to the discussion. It was your first comment which brought us off topic and here you are making it worse.
There are people of many faiths here; respect that, participate in civil debate not speeches and document what you say. Since I’ve seen your work on other sites I’m going to make this your one and only warning.
Without judging anyone or commenting anything, let us examine His Word:
Galations 5: 22-23
Matthew 7
I am not going to say anything… hope you guys know what God is intending to say….
Are your readers not capable of reading and deciding for themselves? Or are you afraid that if they read truth they might be convicted in their consciences and recognize that you are lying to them?
Hebrews affirms what the other scriptures teach:
12:4 — See that no one is sexually immoral…
13:4 — Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
Sex outside marriage, whether hetero- and homo-, is unacceptable to God.
So… let them all marry.
problem solved.
Thanks, Ms. Dalton!
I alway marvel that those who quote Matthew 7:1 (Do not judge, or you too will be judged.) don’t include the next verse – it’s even stronger:
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
What this verse says is that if I come to you quoting Leviticus, then God will judge me based on Leviticus. If I want to rant about abominations, that means I had better not be eating shellfish.
If I come quoting Romans, God will judge me on my greed, deceipt, arrogance and malice. Yep, if I leave out parts of scripture with a “…” to deceive others, and I go around maliciously condemning the world, then I had better be extra careful never to quote Romans 1.
In the same way, if I’m not making every effort to live in peace with all men, well then I’d best keep my trap shut about Hebrews 12.
And look at Hebrews 13:
Keep on loving each other as brothers. Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.
Can you imagine how God will judge me if I were not loving others as brothers and then went and tried to use the very next following verse as one of condemnation.
Whew. I bet He’s call me a whitewashed sepulchur full of death and decay but all nice and religious on the outside. He’d call me a hypocrit and condemn my judgmental and contrary spirit.
Or at least that’s what Scripture says. So it’s a good thing we aren’t here proof-texting. Cuz scripture sure says things that some of us don’t want to hear – especially those using to condemn others.
Hey Sonja, I’m a religious gay JEW. Guess I’m TWO steps behind, no? lol 😉
….still waiting for someone from JONAH to come rant and rave on this site…
Sonja –
Understanding Hebrews 6:4 involves looking at what the early Christians thought – not what some sect of Christianity, or you, thinks it means now.
You continue to interpret the Bible so that it fits within your own worldview. And to be honest, you haven’t displayed any of the characteristics I’d expect a true follower of Christ to possess. I suggest you focus on your own sins, and stop judging everyone else.
J
Sonja, do you know everytime you condemn an adulterer you condemn a divorced and remarried person? Jesus clearly condemned divorce and remarriage (except for cases of infidelity) Matthew 5:32. All those that have done so have commited adultery in the eyes of God. Most churches promote this sin, tossing aside Christ’s command against divorce and remarriage. In fact most of those that condemn homosexuality in their churches have approved divorce and remarriage. Where is the condemnation on that? Does Paul’s Romans 1, which you so proudly hold up as God’s hatred towards gays, have more validity than Christ’s own command against divorce and remarriage? Why do preachers condemn what you and those that believe as you do one sin (homosexuality) all the while promoting another sin (remarriage)? Do you not see the hypocrisy? How can any of you or organizations like FOTF, AFT, CWFA, and alike be “speaking truth” if you ignore Jesus’s words on one hand and confirm and practice Paul’s writings on the another? Was not Paul a follower of Jesus? I’m not saying that Paul doesn’t have anything important to declare in his writings but you seem to hold his words closer to your heart than some of Jesus’s teachings (Do not judge, love one another, do not divorce and remarry). None of you have any moral highground to stand on. You do the exact opposite of what Jesus commands.
If you want truth Sonja then you need to find it yourself. Don’t be led into believing in something simply because its being preached to you. I found the truth by rejecting all organized religion and man-made doctrine and embraced Christ alone. When all the voices of preachers and priests are filtered out, and all the hatred is brushed aside, the only two people left are you and God. Then the Holy Spirit guides you to the truth.
Actually there is more to Matthew 7 than meets the eye. It talks a lot about the environment of the world, what is happening with the fruits from our trees these days…
But I have this thought, does that mean those who are employed as judges and lawyers in courts stand a very huge chance of missing the eternal life boat, than us?
But I have this thought, does that mean those who are employed as judges and lawyers in courts stand a very huge chance of missing the eternal life boat, than us?
As I said above, you have to read the second verse. The measure you use to judge is measured against you. The civil judges measure using civil laws and they too are subject to them. The traffic judge is also subject to speeding and parking laws.
Those who use scripture to judge and condemn are then held up to scripture by God.
There’s a pretty clear distinction.
As I said above, you have to read the second verse. The measure you use to judge is measured against you. The civil judges measure using civil laws and they too are subject to them. The traffic judge is also subject to speeding and parking laws.
Hmm…
Ok, everybody DO WHATEVER THE HECK YOU WANT!!! IT’S ALL GOOD!!!!!
…
Sweet…
Hahaha… : ) Great point Tim, great point. True to the good…. Amen!