FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 10, 2006
TRUTH WINS OUT TO COUNTER ANTI-GAY COALITION’S ‘SUBVERSION OF SCIENCE’ AT AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION’S CONVENTION
Religion-Based Bigots Cloak Scripture in the Guise of Science, Says TWO
WHAT: Truth Wins Out will hold a press conference to counter a right wing attempt to bully the American Psychological Association into re-labeling homosexuality a mental illness. The anti-gay coalition is staging a politically-motivated “protest” at the New Orleans convention center on Friday. These groups believe that homosexuality is sinful, and therefore they are attempting to pressure the APA into twisting science so it will correspond to the coalition’s fundamentalist beliefs. The main tactic the coalition is using to manipulate the APA is the exploitation of so-called “ex-gays,” which are recloseted homosexuals who say they have prayed away the gay.
“This is the subversion of science and a religious racket designed to con Americans into believing that homosexuality is a mental illness,” said Truth Wins Out Executive Director Wayne Besen. “This coalition is trying to kill the APA messenger because they don’t like their science-based message. These ex-gay groups keep no statistics, they produce no peer reviewed studies, most of their top leaders have reverted back to homosexuality and they conveniently disregard scientific evidence that does not conform to their political agenda.”
Read more at Truth Wins Out.
In the interest of fairness, I’d like to see Wayne Besen or TWO back up the claim that, “most of [the ex-gay] top leaders have reverted back to homosexuality.”
Also, is the point of this protest really to have the APA reclassify homosexuality as a mental disorder? If so, this press release is on-track. But, if their stated reason is to tell the APA to be less politically active, then maybe the TWO release should be clear that they believe the protest’s reasoning is to make being gay a mental disorder or even that the potential intent is that. But saying it is THE purpose of the protest if the protesting group isn’t saying that is a bit misleading for me.
The stories of the defections, drop-outs and scandals of so-called “ex-gay” leaders are all OVER the internet. Do some research. Read Wayne Besen’s book. Do some googling of EXODUS history. It’s all there.
Not to mention, Truth Wins Out has a section on their website detailing the defections of ex-gay leaders.
“most of [the ex-gay] top leaders have reverted back to homosexuality.”
I’m with Brady. While there are a number of examples of those who have, I don’t believe that most of the ex-gay top leaders have reverted back to homosexuality.
We can hardly criticize Exodus for its outlandish claims if we make them ourselves.
Also, the press release by Exodus makes no mention of homosexuality as a mental disorder. We may claim that this is their eventual goal, but I don’t think the statement “a right wing attempt to bully the American Psychological Association into re-labeling homosexuality a mental illness” is truthful.
I don’t wish to be associated with dishonesty, be it Exodus’ or Wayne’s.
What the top leaders have done is involve themselves in religious based organizations. The ex gay movement has two exclusive missions: to have full and unchallenged access to homosexuals (whether they’ve decided their ssa are unwanted or not).
As evidenced by having access to high schools or influence on education professionals and their conferences.
The other part of their mission is to participate against pro gay laws and support.
Which is to deliberately put barriers or discrimination in place to create as unpleasant an environment as possible to be gay in.
Effectively FORCING a gay person to make a decision against being gay to find a more supportive environment for themselves.
Of all the disorders STILL listed in the DSM, have any one of you ever heard of Exodus or anyone else advocating that those who have them should never have the choice to marry, have children, the job or education or develop the skill they want?
Unless that person submit to religious teaching to cure it?
Would they advocate that the marriage and child AVERSE be listed, and forced to marry and have children anyway?
What’s really happening is Exodus doesn’t want gay people to have ANY choices or have complete control over who they want to be with or how.
They don’t do it to other people with even clinical disorders.
And the APA doesn’t want to interfere or make the government interfere with quality of life issues and improving on them.
Exodus and FOTF want the public to be fearful, and uninformed.
Always the first tools of an improper and ill advised agenda.
Timothy- thanks for the clarification of my thoughts.
Michael and Robis- I am well versed in the defections of ex-gay leaders and I have read and often cited Wayne’s book. But the claims in this release go further than I am comfortable with.
It doesn’t really matter if it’s “many” or “most” of the ex-gay leaders that have “dropped out”. The more, the better in my opinion! Many already have and many more will. “Dropping out” is a positive step towards accepting who they really are.
I just think it’s terribly sad that gays and lesbians have been taught by their church and their culture that they should even TRY to “change”. Remember, their churches and EXODUS have told them they will go to hell if they don’t.
Robi (above) says that the EXODUS press release says nothing of wanting the APA to reclassify homosexuality as an “illness”. There is no need to. EXODUS has made it VERY clear over the past 30 years that they DO think it IS an illness that CAN and SHOULD be “treated”.
It’s no secret that EXODUS would love for the APA to reverse itself. EXODUS believes that it was “only pressure from gay groups” that made the APA remove it as a mental illness in the first place.
The most blatant hypocrisy is that EXODUS (with its political agenda) would have the nerve to scold the APA for being “political”. Double standard, anyone?
“It doesn’t really matter if it’s “many” or “most” of the ex-gay leaders that have “dropped out”.”
It does to me. Unlike Exodus AND some of its critics, I don’t want a debate focused on hyperbole and exageration. I don’t want to work from a basis of dishonesty and “spin”. I think when the truth is proclaimed accurately and honestly we win.
“EXODUS has made it VERY clear over the past 30 years that they DO think it IS an illness that CAN and SHOULD be “treated”.
It’s no secret that EXODUS would love for the APA to reverse itself.”
Please support this statement with a link to an actual quote, policy, or position that shows that Exodus wishes to reclassify homosexuality as an “illness”. Criticism of the methods of its declassification is not an adequate indication of a desire or agendum for reclassification.
Michael, I very much appreciate your willingness to stand up and renounce your past in being a founder of Exodus. Your testimony and insight are precious. But we have to hold you to the same standards as everyone else. You have to substantiate your claims (and Wayne’s if you try to defend them).
We are not an anti-ex-gay site. We aren’t an anti-Exodus site. We are a site opposed to the lies, untruthful claims, dishonesty, abuse, and anti-gay political activism of the ex-gay movement. Our goal is not to shout down opposing views but to shine a light of truth on the debate.
The only effectiveness XGW has is based on our requirements for accuracy. Otherwise we would simply become another rant site screaming itself into obscurity. And there are plenty of those already.
Timothy: I will certainly find the quotes and references that have led me to conclude that EXODUS would be pleased if homosexuality were reclassified as an illness. I don’t believe I have ever read a “policy statement” as such, but their opinions on the matter have been made clear to me. It may take a couple of days of research, but it will not be hard to do. I will even call Alan Chambers to get a quote on the topic, if he will provide one.
Too bad that some of my phone conversations with EXODUS leaders over the past 25 to 30 years are not on tape. Bob Davies certainly considered it an illness and did not approve of it being removed.
A casual viewing of One Nation Under God will reveal to anyone that EXODUS considers it to be an illness or disorder. Certainly, Frank Worthen, Ed Hurst, Joe Dallas, Andrew Comiskey, Elizabeth Moberly and Joseph Nicolosi of NARTH have made their feelings clear.
If not, why would they be so unhappy that homosexuality was removed from the DSM? Is their only complaint abou the “methods” of the gays who pushed for the declassification ? HARDLY.
Ask yourelf: Would they have approved of it being removed if the gays had been more polite?
Finally, it may matter to you how MANY “Ex-gay” leaders have dropped out. Sorry. I repeat that it does not matter one BIT to me. How “many” neither “proves” or “disproves” anything. People drop out of things all the time.
That others (besides me and Gary) have dropped out is ENCOURAGING — but I am not concerned about the numbers. Would a certain number convince anyone? Would 6 be enough? 20? I have NEVER been concerned about the numbers. As I said above, the more the better!
while Exodus does not say that it wants homosexuality reclassified as an illness per se, if the APA capitulates to them, even in a minor way, the organization will use it to harm those of us who are satisfied with our gay orientation.
“I will even call Alan Chambers to get a quote on the topic, if he will provide one.”
Michael, It would be great if you could get Alan to clarify what the position of Exodus is on such an issue. I’m sure those who stuggle with their orientation and their faith would love to know whether or not their parent organization considers them to be mentally ill.
But as I’m sure you know, we get in dangerous territory when we suppose or imagine or guess what someone else believes or thinks and then argue against that position. It can be embarrasing and also hurt our position. If we are wrong about their motives or goals, then we just look foolish and are easy to dismiss.
As for “many” vs. “most”, I think you are missing my point.
What I’m saying is (and read closely) we need to tell the truth. If it is “some” or “many”, then we are not telling the truth when we say “most”. They are not the same thing.
My point isn’t whether the number is 8 or 476, but rather that what we say is a reflection of truth.
Surely you agree that whatever we say (especially when issuing a press release) must be truthful, don’t you?
A.M. | August 10, 2006 08:28 PM
yep, can’t disagree with that.
You’ll look long and hard through both exodus.to and narth.com etc and be hard pressed to find homosexuality point-blank described as a “mental illness”.
There’s a reason for that: they have slowly removed such wording over the years. A professional therapist, in particular, who used such words would be placing themself in a sticky situation given the clear APA and APsA positions: to the point of possible expulsion, or being pursued by former clients.
Instead, you’ll find weasel words.look for “disorder”look for “healing”look for conflation of the still listed GID with homosexualityuse of “normal” and “natural” in theological terms but in an article masquarading as scientific commentary.Without stating that homosexuality is a mental illness, there should be little doubt that Exodus et al intend that others should come to the view that it is. Apart from the weasel words, calling it a mental illness by another name, the Exodus site is chock full of the false claim that homosexuality was only removed from the list of mental illnesses because of gay activist politics. But for that, well, nudge nudge wink wink, we all know it would still be listed, right?
Take this false presentation as but one good example. Or a current Exodus declaration. You will find a squillion such intentionaly misleading references.
As for what the boss man really thinks?
I think if anyone asks Alan Chambers for an official Exodus quote on the topic they will have little difficulty getting a weasel out of him. Something along the line of “Exodus does not describe homosexuality as a mental illness.” will fall out of his mouth without a moments hesitation.
But… let’s set someone a real challange: ask for an official declarion that Exoduswill not use terminology or promote viewpoints that suggests or could lead people to think that homosexuality is a mental illness or that gay men and lesbians are a priori mentally illrecognizes that the decision to delete homosexuality from the DSM was the correct decision.commits itself to stopping a reinstatment of homosexuality into the DSM, in any formwill not conflate use of “gender identity disorder” and “homosexuality”will commit to a public correction of anyone who fails to follow the above four
I joined the APA as a grad student at the U of Alabama in the 1970’s. The first APA convention I attended was, yes indeed, in New Orleans. If there were any gay activists around, I didn’t see or even hear of any.
The Stonewall uprising occurred in 1969. In the four years till the APsA dropped homosexuality from the DSM, a few nescient gay activist groups had formed in some larger cities like New York City and Los Angeles, surely nothing like the national organizations we find today. So the whole idea that the APsA decision was influenced by some “powerful gay lobby” is nonsense in the extreme.
In discussing the decision with our professors, there wasn’t one who suggested that dropping the listing was a bad idea. In fact, some who had decades of experience working with gays were pleased that the APA finally realized that being gay was not something that therapy could cure.
Any suggestion that their consensus opinion was swayed by the “radical gay activists” running around Tuscaloosa, AL in the mid 1970’s (there weren’t any) is simple lunacy, we would all have to agree.
One last time — I have NEVER said that ALL of the “ex-gay” leaders or “most” of them have dropped out. Someone else may have said it — but I feel no need to defend someone else’s statement.
In the film, One Nation Under God, I say that “a lot of people drop out of the program within the first two weeks — and it’s probably good that they do” — or words very close to that. Check the film. It really says everything I feel about the “ex-gay” movement. I have been involved with this issue since 1974. I came to my postions through years of study, prayer, debate, reflection and tears — and I stand by evrything I have said in print on or camera.
I am done, I think. No need to beat this horse any longer. I am not well physically and need to focus on my work with AIDS patients and just ENJOY the many blessings God has given me. I think I may also (finally) write the book about my EXODUS experience — as many have suggested that I do. Thanks for letting me express myself.
I am “signing off”.
I remain, as Paul was, “convinced” that nothing will ever be able to separate me from the love of God which is ours in Christ Jesus.
Michael,
I look forward to reading your book.
First, I’m thrilled that Timmy Kincaid has read Exodus’press release with all the analytical skills of a trained monkey. But, I urge him to actually think.
Anyone who has read NARTH documents and has read the Nicolosi’s and the late Socarides books knows damn well that the goal of NARTH is to reclassify gay people as menntally ill. They think we are sick. As this was clearly a NARTH event in New Orleans – can we say 2+2=4?
I’m afraid that Timmy may be the kind of guy that would read an Operation Rescue press release on partial birth abortion and not understand that it is a ruse for outlawing all abortions. I can hear him say, “Well, they never mentioned outlawing all abortions in the press release.”
You know, there is something called the big picture – and it is the only picture that really matters. What is the end game of Exodus, NARTH and Focus? That is what counts.
I’m truly dismayed that Timmy so easily gets fooled by obvious Exodus propaganda. To read literally without respect to context and history can easily lead one astray. The New Orleans event was part of a broad overall NARTH/Exodus/Focus on the Family strategy that is difficult to miss – if one has the ability to see and put basic patterns together.
Finally, most of the ex-gay leaders have indeed failed. It is hard to prove this. It is not my fault that Exodus does not keep stats, as I have urged them too for many years.
However, in interviewing ex-ex-gays for several years for my book, it was plain as day that the vast majority of people in these groups dropped out over time. Most of the people I interviewed across Amrerica described their ministries as revolving doors. The pattern and description was consistent in most states and various ministries.
Timmy, it is not dishonesty to point out my conclusions. It is, however, called hard work. I strognly suggest you get off you behind sometime and go into the field and actually talk to people. Dare I say if you left your PC long enough, you would come to the same conclusions I have.
Mr. Besen, we have guidelines for comments. Keep it civil.
Mike A, or whoever is on duty…
Would you mind doing a check on the ISP etc behind the “Wayen Besen” post.
Something’s not sitting right… least of all, the really bad spelling.
I don’t consider a press release to be an appropriate venue for elaborate citations and footnotes for each claim or generalization. That’s the role of websites like XGW or Box Turtle Bulletin, and books such as “Anything But Straight.” The documentation that is being requested of Wayne Besen is scattered across both XGW and across Besen’s book.
XGW has considered starting a wiki that would gather this info in one place, and perhaps T.W.O. has considered something like that as well. But such an effort requires time and money, which XGW unfortunately does not have much of, at the moment.
“Mr. Besen, we have guidelines for comments. Keep it civil.”
My comments were more than “civil” considering Mr. Kincaid’s ugly and ill-informed charachter assassination. Please be consistent in your guidelines, Skemono.
So I guess the moral of the story for Timothy (not “Timmy”, by the way, but I assume Wayne actually is aware of that) is don’t question anything Wayne says.
Do the guidelines for commenters not apply to those on “our side” as well?
If that comment was left by Alan, would it still be relatively unchallenged? I’m a bit disheartened that no one has stood up against this childish behavior on display.
I’m not discussing the merits of what was said (although I question some of that as well). I’m not questioning whether Wayne should release footnoted press releases. I’m questioning the tone of his attack here (and frankly, it was an attack, not an attempt at furthing dialog), and comments such as “Timmy Kincaid has read Exodus’press release with all the analytical skills of a trained monkey” and so on. That’s just not right. We can do better than that.
I think comment guidelines need to be enforced equally — by persons authorized to enforce them. 😉
I’m out of pocket this week because I’m moving to Connecticut. So I don’t have time to become too extensively involved in this dispute. I’ve asked the other authors of XGW to enforce comment guidelines as they see fit.
Maybe we weren’t very clear in the last post…
Has anyone confirmed that was Wayne Besen who posted here?
mailto:wbesen@truthwinsout.org
We’d do it ourselves, but we are not official XGW anythings; so not really our place 🙂
(And good luck with the move Mike — take this opportunity to “accidently” break that hideous vase someone once gave you as a gift!)
FYI,
I don’t know who wrote the first comment attributed to Wayne Beson. For all I know, it might have been Wayne.
But the second comment appears to have been written by the commenter who calls themself Audrey and who believes that “all people should be treated with dignity and respect” except when it comes to treating gay people equally (If I understand how to read IP addresses correctly).
I’m not sure why Audrey has decided to masquarade as Wayne but it’s really classless to do so.
I did email Wayne. I’ll let y’all know what he says.
Thanks Timothy “I am official XGW” Kincaid!
If the second is a hoax, that makes the first well worth asking after. Apart from the text itself, the spelling was so bad etc I was a little surprised to see the name at the bottom.
Also aware that there’s quite a few sites being hit with posts signed as “Wayne Besen” at the moment, but which seem plainly to be not from the guy.
Hence our holding off on commenting about that (stupid) post until we know whther it was or was not Wayne.
Note to all:
Don’t assume anything is accurate at the moment, including some of our own assumptions. Just put this on hold until we can get some facts including Timothy’s response from Wayne.
Thanks,
David Roberts
OK, I’m a loser when it comes to tech stuff. The IP address thing threw me and it appears that it may not have been Audrey after all. My appologies to Audrey: you weren’t classless at all, dear.
As for whether Wayne Besen actually wrote the comments attributed to him, I have no idea. He hasn’t responded to my inquiry. But it really doesn’t matter.
I respect Wayne’s efforts at publically challenging the claims of the ex-gay movement and think his work is valuable. But I don’t always agree with everthing Wayne says. We come from very different backgrounds so naturally our perspectives will be different.
I hope it is clear that my criticism of Wayne’s press release is not a criticism of him and I consider Wayne to be an ally in the fight to protect the freedoms that we all hold dear. He does hands-on work that many of us don’t have the opportunity to do and he’s willing to put in the hours and travel and organize and phone calls and etc. etc. and for that he deserves respect.
I disagreed (and still do disagree) with him on two points of his press release. But I did use a word choice that was a bit too strong. I should not have used “dishonesty”. I think Wayne probably believes that the NARTH protest was a “right wing” effort (though no politicians seemed to be present) and that it was about reclassification of homosexuality as a disorder (though the placards all seemed to be about reorientation).
And as Wayne discusses in his book (which I recommend) there are several ex-gay leaders that have either had “falls” or are now rejecting the ex-gay movement. Though I don’t see it, Wayne may well think that means that most ex-gay leaders are living as gay.
Perhaps using “hyperbole” or “exageration” would have better expressed my intent.
I don’t think that Wayne is a dishonest person, per se, unlike many on the anti-gay side (LaBarbera, Cameron, etc.) who clearly have no use for objective truth. But I will continue to comment from time to time when I think he may be incorrect on some statement.
If that make me a trained monkey, so be it.
Timmy
I’m afraid South Park has ruined “Timmy” as a name, for a generation 🙂
Even without waiting to know who did what, we can comment on the substance.Timothy, think you’re correct to step back from “dishonest”. But it could also equally be qualified, and be used appropriately. “Hyperbole” is dishonesty. As is presenting only one set of facts with the intention of misleading. We’ve given Exodus a well deserved paddling on many occassions for doing those very things. (actually, think it’s standard operating procedures for them, but need not get into all that)From the WB press release: also wouldn’t have worded anything in this way: “have reverted back to homosexuality”.Does this mean they had gone from hom to het, and back to hom again? In other words they’d actually managed not just one change in sexual orientaton, but two?!! That wording contradicts what is otherwise being said: that change in sexual orientation, per se, does not occur (even if other things do).If the WB point was that many/most/all of Exodus’ leaders had failed to show any real measurable change in sexual orienatation — for the simple reason that they all continue to be homosexually attracted, with many “proving” this in so many many ways — then it simply should have been said that way.They haven’t “reverted”, because they’d never actually “changed” in the first place. They are as homosexual as they ever were (or even, as homosexual as they thought they were).I don’t think there should be little doubt that there is a rump of the profession — and a much larger share of “that side” — who are indeed attempting to reclassify homosexuality as a mental illness.All semantic nonsense aside, we all know what they — Exodus and NARTH — mean by the entirely deliberate use of words like “healed”, “cured”, “developmental”, “nurtured” and “confused”. We realise what they are attempting when they seize on GID, still in the DSM, and attempt to shove all gay men and women under that as a category. They do think homosexuality is pathological, beyond any of the frankly medically meaningless religious viewpoints on what is “normal” or “natural”.Hence, our “Four Points” in an earlier post.
Bugger. Missed a sentence. After the one paragraph in the first point, add:
Now, we all expect those who have little information about exgay groups to be prone to inaccurate statements and hyperbole. They do it because they are ignorant and/or prejudiced; not because they are being dishonest.
But we expect those at the centre of the debate to do far better than that: if they wish to plead ignorance, then they should shut-up and instead listen for awhile. If they claim to be knowledgeable, then there is no excuse and they must be regarded as dishonest.
(This BTW is a general comment, and not about the WB post or the Exodus demo)
I hope nobody thinks the Wayne Besen charade was perpetrated by me (AKA Audrey). I happen to believe that LGBT people deserve the same rights and respect given to every one else.
Posted by: Audrey at August 14, 2006 09:21 PM
No Audrey, as Timothy said that was an honest mistake and we aplogize. We have no reason to believe you had anything to do with either post.
I’m a reader here and one of Wayne’s. I’ve had two posts deleted on Wayne’s blog questioning comments he made. I’m still waiting for clarification if he made these comments here or not. Something isn’t sitting right. Tim, please let us know. Wayne must have answered you by now.
Sorry, I haven’t heard back from Wayne.
I just read the correction, I’m sorry to have jumped the gun.
Thanks for all your reasoned and fair contributions here at XGW, Timothy. Any response from Wayne on the mystery posts?