-The Vatican voices opposition to a UN resolution that would protect individuals facing imprisonment or the death penalty for being gay.
-Box Turtle Bulletin reports on the latest example of the heterosexual menace.
-Shirley Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church: Prop. 8 will fail. Politics makes for strange bedfellows indeed.
-The Episcopal Church splits over gays.
-The Christian Anti-Defamation Commission demands an apology for Prop 8: The Musical.
-Jennifer Vanasco warns that boycotts can backfire.
Oops. You missed one.
The Becket Fund released a full page New York Times ad putting out a call to end the religious violence and intimidation concerning Prop 8 protests. While the ad had a few issues, HRC’s response was just plain strange.
Moderated: Self-serving link removed. This is the last warning on this.
Mr. French,
The Becket Fund ad in the NYT is directed at the gay community. It clearly is in response to the peaceful demonstrations across the United States.
I’m constantly amazed at how Mormons (and these people in the no mob veto group) are claiming victimization. To broadly paint the whole of the gay community as responsible for vandalizations or two letters with white powder is irresponsible. This example of blaming the gays can only be seen as more hate-filled rhetoric. Even though no mention of “gay” was in the ad. Please. That was a bit disingenuous in the comments in the link you provided. Everyone knows the ad was directed at gays.
It has been stated several times Mormons have the right to say and act on any issue they feel worthy of their attention. I see no problem with Mormons spending all their money and efforts in any manner they see fit. It’s their time and money.
But the rally and the peaceful demonstration by gays and gay-friendly advocates in Utah is protected by the same rules/laws/regulations that apply to Mormons. It was peaceful. It was the only response possible when gays cannot reach the Mormons any other way. The Mormons are not welcoming any sort of dialogue with even gay Mormons.
It was amazing to see how so many rallied to march around Temple Square in downtown Salt Lake City. It was truly a reaction or response borne of necessity at a grass-roots level. What was thought to be only a trickle of people at first, turned exponentially into a crowd of thousands. It was an example of democracy on par with what civil rights demonstrations in the 1960s were.
I feel the ad in the NYT was an overreaction. It’s as if the Becket Fund wants to muzzle the whole of the gay community because some irresponsible fools sent two letters with white stuff in it. Our mailroom in my office had to deal with the same thing just last month. Those kinds of letters are a constant ordeal in many facets of the business and government agencies. But, because the Mormons got two of them, that makes them victims of some hordes of anti-religious people (read: gays). Or even the bb-gun vandals who shot out 8 or 9 glass doors at Mormon Ward Houses… That could be easily explained as being a prank by some rouge juvenile delinquent but some Mormons like to link it to “the gays”…those degenerates! I know, because that’s what my co-workers say who did it.
And speaking of overreaction: The Mormons are expressing worries about demonstrations at their brand-new, highly visible Temple with its public Open House in Salt Lake Valley next month. The more they fret about what the gays will do, the more they look guilty about something.
Cowboy,
I think there’s more to it than 2 letters. This article includes more examples of intimidation and violence: https://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Dec08/Art_Dec08_09.html
Actually, we need to increase the protests, turn up the temperature, and increase the negative publicity that the Mormon church and it’s prop 8 supporters recieve. Weekly protests at the temples and better boycott targeting would be really helpful over the Holiday season while the temples are fully decorated to attract outsiders. The fact they spent money on this shows that they are feeling the heat.
Mr. French,
So the actions of a few radical factions are linked generally to the whole of the gay community? That’s the implication I get from reading this article and it’s the clear implication of the ad in the NY Times. The tone is not directed at the few who vandalize and threaten…but to the whole of the gay community.
The actions of some unruly and idiotic people are to be defining the whole group? That’s like saying the Phelps family is indicative of the whole Evangelical (Christian) community. I could just as easily blame the whole of the Mormon faith for their contribution to Matt Shepard’s murder because one of the perps was a Mormon.
But we don’t like to make generalizations.
Plus, where is it stated in this Christian news article any mention of Equality for Gays/Lesbians that have condemned these vandals and hooligans? I guess that’s to be expected from a biased news organization.
Let us all stand back from the scene a bit. Take a look at all the incidents that were mentioned in the Christian News article. Then, let’s ask ourselves if the protests were not, at the very least, expected after that bitter campaigning.
I don’t like it when people are pressured from their careers because of some perceived intolerance…but you know what…I have been working and living in Utah for all my life under the constant, chronic pressure to live in the closet. Perhaps you can’t understand that feeling. I know I have been the target of vandals. I personally have been treated with disgust and blatant hostility from some local Mormons. I really would love to cite multiple personal examples but I think you get the gist of what I am saying.
And then about worrying about your career: I have co-workers who have tried to goad me into political debates only to whet their self-gratifying delight by shaming me…or by demonizing me in front of my other co-workers. I suppose that is expected with the vast majority of the people I work/live with are rabid, narrow-minded Mormons. You can’t reason with them. They don’t see their actions and attitude as bigoted but I know my job is on the line if I don’t conform to the “norm”.
But, what I would like to ask: Is the NY Times ad fomenting further hate? Was it really necessary?
@Marcus French
This is your last warning on posting links to your own blog discussion instead of discussing the topic here. We didn’t let the former editor of XGW do that, and neither are you. If you want to draw attention to your own writing, do it elsewhere. If you wish to comment on a topic of discussion here, then do so. Two lines and a link to your own blog are not appropriate. If you do that again, you will no longer be welcome to comment here.
Marcus French said:
The Mount Hope Church incident is a colossal Red Herring in the discussion of marriage equality, or gay rights in general. The Black Power movement (much larger than the minor elements we are discussing here) was often violent — very violent — and the mainstream civil rights movement under MLK shunned them. Yet when those who did not want racial equality spoke out against the idea, which do you think they emphasized, the peaceful protests which were the norm? Think again.
Marcus, you and others who wish to capitalize on these incidents which stand out because they are the exception, you are following in the footsteps of some pretty disgusting figures in history. You may want to wipe your feet.
cowboy,
Could you provide some information and/or links with regard to which leaders in the GLBT community have “condemned these vandals and hooligans”? That is certainly encouraging, and what (I think) the Becket Fund ad was asking for.
David,
Got it! I’ll abstain from linking to VOR from here on out. With my interaction on other blogs, it has been a helpful way for people to know where I’m coming from without having to say it all over again, but I’ll certainly respect your rules here.
David,
Exactly! The problem seems to be that GLBT leaders haven’t made a point of condemning these acts, as much as either turn a blind eye to it, or make excuses for it. I believe that is what the ad was asking for.
Capitalize? I just want these incidents to stop.
Your comments to date do not encourage me to believe that.
I would bet money that people like Marcus have a great interest in seeing the violent GLBT acts continue. The more the fools among us act like fools, the more foolish all of us look, and the easier it is to demonize us and call us unstable deviants undeserving of legal equality. David’s example of the Black Power movement vs. MLK’s peaceful movement is extremely cogent. And I was under the impression that the HRC and GLAAD did indeed NOT approve of the violent and line-crossing stunts pulled by the stupider among us.
Mr. French:
From the Salt Lake Tribune:
From the Equality Utah webpage:
There has been frequent like-minded comments from other prominent gay and lesbians and they have been reported in the papers that have noted the vandalism.
But, really, would you think most gays and lesbians would support vandalism and destruction of property? Any decent gay or lesbian would know that is not the way to win the crusade. I’m surprised you even had me look for such examples for you.
My experience in Salt Lake City was totally peaceful and actually it brought out the best in my fellow gays and lesbians in the brother/sisterhood and with our straight friends who also joined in the march.
I’m afraid some people would like to still blow at the embers of this fire and make it worse than what it is. I know I will not tolerate my friends from doing destructive action towards the Mormons and their property. I’ll be one to stop any such actions… even if I have to stand at the East door of the LDS Temple.
The march around Temple Square was not any worse than when the past Pride Parades strode past the Temple before the LDS Church purchased that section of Main Street and closed it off to traffic. Yes…”they” purchased the whole road! But, all the Pride Parades had no affect on the good Mormons. I’m still wondering why there are so many Mormons bent out of shape about this peaceful demonstration last month?
I know I was inconvenienced by the letter that was sent to the LDS Headquarters. It resulted in closing off all the streets downtown and it made a mess for many commuters… but that was it. I was a little put out, too, so I was forced to stay another hour downtown and do a little Christmas shopping.
Marcus French said:
The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty is asking for what has already been done. Placing an ad to make such a request now can only benefit the Becket Fund by way of exposure, donations, etc. This is all a distraction from the real issues.
I also just now realized that not only was this thread started by Marcus’ self-serving promo for his blog, but the subject wasn’t even in the digest. If you want to change the topic, Marcus, wait for an open thread. This entire discussion is nothing but a distraction which borders on trolling.
It’s not only the vatican that opposes the UN resolution for the universal decriminalization of homosexuality…
Our very own United States, as well as Australia, have decided to stand with the likes of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and North Korea by not signing the proposed UN declaration that advocates universal decriminalization of homosexuality.
From Pink News
Cowboy,
Thanks for the info!
David,
Got it! I thought it was a newsworthy addition to the day’s happenings, similar to the other things you posted, but will wait for open threads in the future.
I have been attending meetings and townhall gatherings that are trying to address and redirect outreach.
We don’t know how the Supreme Court in CA will rule the appeal. We might be able to get enough signatures for a repeal.
In the meantime, I suggested that we take the same approach as Mormons.
Have regularly scheduled gatherings, print materials that are eduational (similar to what PFLAG has) and go two by two into neighborhoods on education missions.
Every advocate group could lend their input into the best educational materials and information groups. We could serve the communities we walk among, impromptu conversations wherever we can.
I so over the retreating into corners, but it’s true…as Golda Meir said “One cannot shake hands with a fist”.
Many who voted for the amendment or who are in opposition to any equality or standards of protective laws, are hiding.
They are difficult to talk to and they don’t make their churches, or campuses or homes available.
Well, we are less intimidating two by two…
But it’s not hard to offend anyone. Simply being alive is of great offense to many.
We have to be the ones to emphasize that EDUCATION is peace, that ignorance poisons everything.
It’s not about sermons or expositions on religion, but the fair exchange of information that’s important to know.
In any case, it’s an idea. We DO have a mission.
Anyone who tries to rationalize why anyone deserves discimination, knows they never have to deal with it, and never have.
It’s all to easy to judge from that point. They can take a walk in our shoes, instead of complaining about what kind of shoes they are.
That is at the very foundation of every religious teaching and civil society known to man.
Ms. DuCasse,
I like your style. What you say is true: It’s better to put our best foot forward.
I maintain some of us should take a little field trip on Sunday and go to a Mormon Ward…(info: Temples are NOT for the public. They are strictly for Mormons to enter…R E A L L Y good Mormons at that.) But, we can learn/benefit from a visit to a Mormon Ward and politely take an hour to get to know Mormons. They won’t bite, point fingers at you and laugh. I promise. Plus, rest assured, nobody will instantly be vaporized when they step over the threshold into their chapel.
And along that line of thinking: I would love to organize a group to attend one of the Sunday Morning broadcasts from Salt Lake City Temple Square in either the vintage Tabernacle or the newer Conference Center (affectionately referred to as: the Mega-nacle since it seats 21,000.) We all can appreciate good music and there aren’t much better places in this world where you can hear a huge pipe organ and a professional 300-member choir in the same concert.
I know…I know…you’re rolling your eyes. But…it would make a statement to the LDS Church…especially if we had a huge turnout.
The only negative: you have to be in your seats by 9:00 a.m. on Sundays. Would that be too early for some of us?
And I would love to be your personal tour-guide.
well the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is the best in the world, they say. My mom is a singer and she says back in high school when her school’s choir was singing really well her director would say they sound better than the MTC lol. Unfortunately I’m in PA and have no plans to be anywhere near UT.
I have to say that the Shirley Phelps article you linked to was absolutely hillarious.
TRiG.
Well, Emily K, you are certainly one I would love to give a tour…and maybe explain that baptism-after-yer-dead thang…if you ever do make it to the City by the Great Salt Lake.
The scuttlebutt I have been hearing is a plan for a lot of GLTQs to make a March on Salt Lake City…some time in March (how apropos!). It would be perfect timing. It will be after the State Legislature session is finished and we will see just how genuine the remarks about the LDS Church being in favor of equal rights for gays. And it will be right before the LDS General Conference in April.