Wayne Besen, Michael Glatze, And Charlene Cothran on CNN Tonight
Wayne Besen is reporting:
Truth Wins Out’s Executive Director Wayne Besen will appear live TONIGHT on CNN’s Paula Zahn Now. Besen will be debating the “ex-gay” former editor of YGA Magazine, Michael Glatze; and Charlene Cothran, “ex-gay” publisher of Venus Magazine. (8PM ET) Monday
Set your Tivos.
Hat Tip: Emily K
Update: TruthWinsOut.org reports that the segment has been canceled.
Truth Wins Out’s Executive Director Wayne Besen will no longer appear live tonight on CNN’s Paula Zahn Now -as the segment has been cancelled or postponed. Besen was to debate the “ex-gay” former editor of YGA Magazine, Michael Glatze; and Charlene Cothran, “ex-gay” publisher of Venus Magazine.
No word yet on the reason.
Hat Tip: Larry Seiferth Jr.
Michael Glatze sure isn’t wasting any time getting himself on camera, is he?
Soooo… the show will feature two ex-gay activists, one gay activist, and no former ex-gays or independent experts?
If that’s the complete guest list, then that does not sound even marginally balanced to me.
You know I thought the same thing. Because this is all happening within the week he revealed he was ex-gay to the public, I have been under the impression that he’s being paid by some anti-gay organizations to peddle his conversion and the belief gays can change.
The “I’m not gay anymore” limelight must pay very well.
Wow, these guys are popping up all over. Benjie Nycum, Michael Glatze’s ex-lover is also appearing today. He is going to be on GAYBC radio live today at 6pm pst. GAYBC is a free gay internet radio station. It should be interesting.
Michelangelo Signorile, the gay radio host, is saying on his blog that Glatze is also going to appear on his radio show tomorrow on Sirius OUTQ. Glatze, like all the other professional ex-gays is really making the rounds. I don’t blame him so much as the ‘family-vaules’ groups who love this type of thing for fundraising. The more homphobia they can whip up, they know donations will increase. They used Marine Cpl Matt Sanchez for the same thing (he’s the ex-gay porn star). Matt is now writing for National Review.
I agree. No offense to Wayne, but better representatives would have been Peterson Toscano and Christine Bakke, since they can speak from experience. And given Beyond Ex-Gay’s high profile lately, it would have been more appropriate.
I’m concerned that tonight’s presentation will devolve into an angry war of words, which will benefit no one.
I believe Wayne Besen did have ex-gay treatment with a pscyotherapist years ago. That is how he became involved in the topic.
I believe CNN should have in addition to Besen also have on John Paulk or Ted Haggard to show the consequences and also to ask about long-term effects.
Bessen didn’t have treatment – he explains in his book how his parents tried to get him to listen to a stupid subliminal message tape but when he told them that the tape blamed the parents for their kid’s homosexuality, they never spoke of it again.
Besen’s site, TruthWinsOut.org, states the segment has been cancelled or postponed, and will not air tonight.
I just heard the Benie Nycum interview with John McMullen. It was amazing. You could tell that Benjie still has a deep love for Michael and didn’t want to criticize him. It was very sad and I almost got the impression that Benjie is considering “leaving the lifestyle” also. It was a very surreal interview. There wasn’t really anything new except Benjie made a comment that Michael had been worrying about dieing “every 20 minutes” and they had constantly been to the Emergency Department. He didn’t really expand on what that meant but it seemed kind of a wierd comment.
Sam. It sounds like Glatze is prone to panic or anxiety attacks. His work with his own magazine, no doubt was stressful and ultimately losing it contributed as well.
Both Cothran and Glatze were both going through financial sea changes at their publications.
They saw where more butter was for their bread and went for it. Smearing gay people IS very profitable and those so willing are given a great deal of exposure.
ESPECIALLY someone that found God at the bottom of their ‘my gay is not ok’ pity pot.
You will note that many ex gays still expect sympathy and/or respect from the gay brethren they say they left behind.
It’s not easy being gay, that is so. It’s not easy being straight either.
But a cop out at the expense of the credibility of gay people, that’s another breed altogether.
That doesn’t deserve ANY respect at all.
The one thing I heard was Benie seeming quite sad for Michael, and that he wasn’t surprised by all this much. The fear of death would seem quite telling, as I think that might signal much deeper, older issues. Fearing death every 20 minutes would certainly be classifed as a serious mental issue I think. Glatze does seem to be one very troubled man, perhaps even more so than before.
How does one access the Gaycom interview? It keeps going to the second hour, and I wanted to listen to the first. Anyone know? Thanks!
It will be in their archives in a week or so, they are always a bit behind. It was live. Check here every few days.
Mike, welcome to how I do every interview. It’s about time they had two on our side and one on the other.
Whining appears to be an important part of the ‘ex-gay’ lifestyle.
Alan, I’m not sure why two gay and one ex-gay would be so terribly unfair. At any rate, a lot depends on who the people are 😉
Like, for example, if one were to say “I don’t think I’ve ever even met a truly ex-gay person” and the other were to say “My change took 3 weeks” – yeah, that would make things way more interesting than if it were simply two ex-gays vs. one gay.
But then, since ex-gay therapy and conversion is such a honed science, we would never have that issue, would we? 8)
“It was very sad and I almost got the impression that Benjie is considering “leaving the lifestyle” also.”
Really? I thought he was in some of the gay groups in Canada like Egale (or that’s what Google says). Why do you think he is also leaving the lifestyle? This worries me, that more and more key activists are considering becoming ex-gay. I think it shows the high burnout factor when these people have so much pressure put on them. This shows why it’s so important for more GLBT people to become involved in activism.
In one of his interviews, Glatze said he was having bad stomach pain all the time before his big change. It sounds very psychological to me. Between this and the confusion over just what religion he belongs to, I think he really needs some serious help.
Glatze wrote another article at WND:
It basically boils down to – he convinced himself being gay was fine, he had a nervous breakdown, he found the Lord, and now he has gone from gay to straight. People are supposed to think being gay is gross, because it’s gross if you have relations which don’t involve making babies. Only gays or the media convince people that homosexuality is not gross, and since he was a part of that campaign, he now wants people to know how weird and gross homosexuality is and now that he knows the “truth”, he’s going to “everything he can to fight it [homosexuality].”
This sounds like a lot of hurt and hyperbole to me, and hoping and wishing. Even many ex-gay organizations do not say they have people who so easily go from gay to straight, even if they decide that being gay is wrong.
Besides, there are so many gay people who feel that being gay IS normal. They don’t have to convince themselves of that. They know inside what they feel is right. It is only society that teaches them what they feel is “gross” and “weird”.
Alan: “It’s about time they had two on our side and one on the other.”
But that would be very misleading. As you’ve said before, 70% will fail at Exodus.
It should always be (roughly) 1 exgay to 2 ex-ex-gays. Plus 17 never-been-exgay gays. That would be the more accurate representation of Exodus’ attraction and success rate.
(knowing full well that a great slab of Alan Chamber’s appearances are at events where no gay person, let alone an ex-ex-gay, will ever invited — preaching to the choir, as he does.)
From all that I have read in the last week on Glatze he’s still wrestling with unresolved feelings in his life which he contributes it all to being gay. If he claims to be straight and doesn’t wrestle with SSA or desires then I’m glad for him. But if he still has SSA’s and wrestles with those desires then it maybe only time that will bring him back around to accepting himself as Christian and gay.
I’m sure Affirmation would be glad to have him.
I think this figure, if it is mentioned at all, needs to be properly qualified. As far as I can tell it comes from an off-hand remark and reflects speculation which Randy Thomas posted on his own blog at least a year ago, and I think Alan mentioned recently somewhere. In other words, the 70/30 split is no more substantiated than the “thousands, or hundred of thousands” etc.
Unfortunately, the sudden common use of these figures are giving them weight which they do not deserve, and I’m sure none of us wants to be responsible for perpetuating an untruth. Let’s not forget that this is basically how Paul Cameron’s garbage has wormed its way into the debate.
James, wow! The tone of that article is tamer, but still, it raises more questions than it answers. He talks about relationship issues that are common to gay relationships, but then he does not discuss what these bad things are (having been in a long time relationship, I don’t know what he is talking about). He has a cure, but he gives no details about the cure, which is largely private.
Most of the article is about how important he was, but frankly being on panels and other things do not make a person a huge leader (hell, I have done some of the things he mentioned). But then he goes on about grossness–how homosexuality is gross and everyone knows it. I don’t know it, and I suspect most gay people don’t know it. Many gay people are grossed out by the thought of opposite sex sex. His arguments seemed shallow, abstract, and strange. His story just gets curiouser and curiouser.
Leaving aside our /sarc in the post David, and the fact we personally think 70% is too low, the “70%” actually has a long history at Exodus.
eg google “Exodus 71.6%” and you’ll get this straight up. (and it’s a misrepresentation of the Masters & Johnson “study” in any case)
Nicolisi says 33% past muster — his one-third/one-third/one-third.
And then there’s Alan himself…
By Chambers’ estimate, only 30 percent of those who seek to switch orientations succeed. Fifty percent abandon the program. The other 20 percent, he says, go back and forth. “I would say it’s like [Alcoholics Anonymous],” Chambers says. “It’s in the 30-percent range [that] find a great degree of healing and move into heterosexuality, single or married.”
(Orlando Weekly interview with Alan Chambers, published 24 July 2003)
And note: success for that “estimated” 30% isn’t straightness. There’s constant celibacy in there.
Does that answer where we pulled that figure from? 🙂
(but no disagreement from us either about Alan having no basis for those figures).
See what happens when Editors put that cursed automatic bible-ing on! Exodus 71 — must be one of the sections they edited out…
I thought the 70/30 bit was the proverbial Spitzer study.
In any event, thanks for the article link:
(Orlando Weekly interview with Alan Chambers, published 24 July 2003)
Some archival gems in there.
“James, wow! The tone of that article is tamer, but still, it raises more questions than it answers.”
It seems like he is trying to convince himself more than anyone else, and he is hoping if he can go around spreading the anti-gay gospel, he will be able to prove how straight he is. I know those who oppose homosexuality will try their best to use him as their poster child, but his thoughts just seem so jumbled. When one of your main arguments is to tell everyone homosexuality should be opposed because it’s “gross” and the gays and the media try to tell everyone it isn’t gross, then you may want to go back to the drawing board. He makes it seem so easy. For him to claim he’s gone from gay to straight just by realizing homosexuality is gross (I know I am paraphrasing his actual comments) is not any kind of experience I have ever seen, and nothing that those I know who are ex-gay have ever experienced. It’s very misleading and very concerning and he seems to be acting entirely out of his own pain, not out of what will benefit others.
I’m also so concerned for Benjie Nycum and what he must be going through. I hope that he is not considering going the ex-gay route, as someone above suggested.
What about God? Don’t you have God on your side? “If God be for you, who can be against you?”
There is no sarcasm in my tone, really. You and I both disbelieve, we’re just at different levels in that disbelief. I’ve stopped believing in a God who will torture me for eternity if I indulge in sex with men (even though, ironically, I am celibate re men and married to a woman). You don’t seem to believe God is with you but that you are alone during “every interview.”
I’m ex ex-gay because I stopped trying to change when I realized I was alone with just beliefs and there was no God to back them up.
Michael has come out with another article in WND this morning which raises even more questions:
“I was in a relationship that was challenging, because it had aspects to it that I didn’t enjoy. I didn’t know until later that those aspects were not unique to my situation at all.”
When his ex-lover Benjie Nycum was on GAYBC yesterday, the host John McMullen tried to get him to reflect on what might have been damaging behavior in their relationship (drug abuse, multiple partners, disease, etc), but Benjie didn’t say anything specific. I wonder what Michael is referring to.
“And so, my story becomes a story of healing from homosexuality, which I write in order to “set the record straight” about the notion that people can’t heal from homosexuality. That is not true. People can heal. I did it.
How did it happened? Well, a lot of that is private.”
Very wierd. He doesn’t even want to reveal the ‘secrets’ to help others.
Where it came from wasn’t my concern, only that it has been repeated recently and is becoming the de facto standard because of it. If there is no support for it, we should make sure that is clear in the context.
The 71.6% figure has nothing to do with it.
You’ll live 😉
Ya know, I could probably post my “gay activist” resume and it would look really impressive as well. But I’m willing to bet that outside of the internet none of you had ever heard of me either.
Hmmmm…. if I wrote for WND, would I suddenly become the center of attention? Nah, I don’t think I could dumb it down enough.
I see Glatze as a very immature individual. Obviously, what he has written to WND suggests to me he has some mental problems that need working out. And to state that it was all caused by his sexuality is playing the blame game.
When someone hears “voices” in their mind and suddenly thinks gay sex is “gross” it shows to me without a doubt that there is much more going on in his life then he admits. From all the testimonies from ex-gays I have read Glatze’s is the first I have read that has been written on a elementary school level mentality. I’m not trying to be mean towards Glatze but I’m surprised at the level of writing considering he was once an editor of a magazine.
Re: the 70/30, when I mention it, I also am quick to say that this number comes from Exodus and we have no idea where they are getting these numbers, since they do not do any kind of follow-up once people leave their ministries. I think it’s important that we should say this if we ever reference this mystery number. And really, that’s the only context in which I’d even talk about this number. If, by their own estimation, they have a 70% failure rate, what happens to all those people?
Alan has used this figure recently, and of course he doesn’t let us know where this comes from (although perhaps he can answer that question in this thread).
Until I can find a reliable source for these numbers, I am going to have to continue saying that it seems incredibly high, unreliable, and based upon nothing more than a personal estimation (based on….? what? what people say or look like the last time someone from the ministry has seen them?). Which means that their “failure” rate is most likely so much higher, and Exodus has (to my knowledge) done nothing to try to follow up with folks or find out if people have experienced harm or damage from their ex-gay experiences.
Again, this is a pastoral care issue – it’s not about politics. It’s not a numbers game to play back and forth. It’s about the fact that even these numbers, which perhaps sound good to them (30% success!) are really staggering not because of the 30%, but because of the number of people who are potentially carrying about quite a lot of psychological or emotional baggage from their ex-gay pasts (and who have stories that Exodus and others have never heard).
I also often remind people that I had to write a letter to my local ministry telling them that I couldn’t be counted as a success story, because I knew there was no way they’d know otherwise.
Yes, the writing is very jumbled and awkward. I also was surprised by the language because it is very unedited and rantlike. His audience is conflicted. If a student wrote something like that in my class, the writing would get a D+/C-, not effective for an editor.
Benjie Nycum’s interview on GAYBC left me with a tremendous sense of sadness. Whether it be Borat, Jerry Springer or Jackass II, CWA or Benny Hinn, Paris Hilton or Anna Nicole Smith, we have a troubling fascination with people who do inexplicable things which often are the result of the inner struggles of people in crisis.
The closer I examine the fine details of what is coming to light about Michael Glatze’s life struggles, the more he appears to be not yet ready for the public attention he’s receiving, and the more it appears that WND and CWA are more anxious to exhibit a trophy than to help someone in crisis.
PBCliberal, what all did Nycum say? I read that he started crying (which I can certainly understand). I feel so sorry for him to have to deal with all this on a public level. When did he and Glatze break up?
When someone hears “voices” in their mind and suddenly thinks gay sex is “gross” it shows to me without a doubt that there is much more going on in his life then he admits. From all the testimonies from ex-gays I have read Glatze’s is the first I have read that has been written on a elementary school level mentality. I’m not trying to be mean towards Glatze but I’m surprised at the level of writing considering he was once an editor of a magazine.”
That’s what really seems strange to me. He seems very raw and unfinished. I’m used to those who decide to speak about their experiences on this issue being very rehearsed-sounding and having all the language down pat. I think this was much too soon for him and I’m almost surprised WND didn’t tell him to wait a little longer when he would be more coherent.
They reportedly broke up a couple of years ago. The interview is available in its entirety on the web at the GayBC radio Network website. Its in the archives section for the John McMullen show. Depending on your computer’s configuration and software, it may play as an mp3 directly from this link.
The show’s TRT is 54:59, the program segment on Glatze begins at 10:40, the actual Nycum interview begins at 12:14.
Nycum’s homage to Glatze at 34:42 gracious and insightful, the burden of knowing Glatze’s pain is obvious around 32:41. He compliments Glatze on being a wonderful human being. Its clear from this interview that Benjie Nycum is as well.
Thanks, PBCliberal, for letting me know all that.
He’s more gracious towards Glatze than may would be in this situation. I guess he really does love him.
I found the interview quite sad, but I did not catch the “leaving the lifestyle” aspect. Did Benjie say that? I actually thought he focused on the good to the gay community.
Weird, weird, weird! When I first heard of Michael Glatze, it was regarding the WND article. I had never heard of him, and I googled, and there was almost nothing. Tonight, I just happened to be looking for something else, and I found http://www.musecube.com/mglatze/about.htm
The images and impact are strange and do not seem remotely exgay. Then, it says he is interested in erotic work in the bio. The site seems new, and Michael seems to be setting himself up as a celebrity.
Interesting, the profile lists his age as 32 which sounds like it’s recent. He has some photos there and does list one of his modeling interests as “erortic” as you say, so I don’t know what to think of him. More and more inconsistencies.
How. Very. Perculiar.
Speaking of further info….
And that would be this, and this, of further interest on the (previous) Bhuddism angle.
(nice find Aaron)
and bad spelling grantdale.
Uh, that’s why we put the 5 minute edit feature in! You still had 4 minutes during which to edit that and avoid an “oops” post. Man, people just don’t appreciate this stuff 😉
Yeah, I’m an old timer. Forgive me, forgot — I’m still in the “press-post-instead-of-preview-and-die-of-shame” days of yore.
But of course we all appreciate you David. No, really.
Thanks Grantdale. This whole Glatze thing is one of the weirdest exgay moments ever. It is like he is throwing out all this stuff and seeing what sticks. What blows is the cruel aspect of trying to hurt others in the process.
Another weird aspect is that I keep reading that he has a live-in girlfriend (can anyone confirm that?), but that makes little sense. The LDS Church will not allow baptism of couples who are sleeping or living together–the couple has to marry or else no baptism. The LDS issue still seems like an afterthought.
This is the year of mystery–anyone remember Donnie Davies? Now, the mystery behind Glatze.
Agree Aaron — we keep hearing voices repeating a phrase that ends “…than a fruitcake”. (The other word is sort of banned here at XGW). I can only imagine what those around him are also going through.
But we also had a thought — just the one — does anyone know what drugs he got into?
In the wrong individual, even just a bit of some can cause deep and long-lasting problems.
There’s a recent interview with Glatze in Gay City News which sheds a little more information.
As to the 30/70 figure, this is similar to the 33% quoted by supporters of ex-gay therapy and sourced from a book by Jones and Yarhouse (2000).
Their figures are based on a range of older papers sourced back to the 50s. It is worth noting that this 33% wasn’t for those claiming a complete switch of orientation, but for those experiencing at least some heterosexual shift. However, their book’s science has come in for quite a bit of criticism over the years.
Uh, that’s why we put the 5 minute edit feature in! You still had 4 minutes during which to edit that and avoid an “oops” post. Man, people just don’t appreciate this stuff
FYI, I am unable to edit after submitting. But that may just be the way I am set-up. No idea. But that may also be the case with others and may occasionally end up with an “oops” post
Timothy, I believe the problem is with your residual settings in the system from your previous role. I made one change, see if the edit feature is available the next time you post. If you want to do it here, I can delete it afterward.
I don’t see what all the fuss is about, we all know grantdale can write. I thought he was just being his usual witty self and using cockney.
This is Benjie. Just wanted to clarify that I am gay and pretty darn happy about it. Sincere warm wishes to all of you.
Glad you are doing well Benjie despite the situation.
Benjie, it’s wonderful to see you are strong in your conviction about who you are. It’s so important to know yourself and know who you are when you are going through a hard time. You gave a great interview on John McMullen’s show. That must’ve been a bit difficult.
I hope you will continue to put forth a positive presence in the GLBT community, as you did in the past with Michael. Giving an interview with John McMullen was definitely a positive contribution.
Blessings and Warm Wishes.
Emilly and Aaron: Thank-you (and others) for your warm and supportive words. A few days ago in the middle of this, a young person we interviewed in the Young Gay America traveling days sent me this. With that person’s blessing, I thought I would share it here since it gives me so much hope and helps put things in perspective:
We have love
and it is all we need
it is something that cannot be destroyed or manipulated by greed or hatred
and can only grow stronger as it illuminates dark corners and unifies all forms of life
it embraces differences
breaks the constructs which obstruct our freedom
conquers sickness and disease
brings hope to those in despair
does not demand conformity
love has no interest in the trivial, aimless cycles of evil
it is pure and it is all we have in this world
love transcends all
it is precious; truly omnipotent
it is you
it is me
it is everything
Once religion begins to impede on the very ideals from which it was built it becomes self-destructive and aimless just like hate. The real problems aren’t homosexuality or sexual expression. Let’s focus on abuse, poverty, disease and famine, destruction of our resources and environment. If the energy used to write articles of condemnation and thoughtless rage was instead used to invoke positive change so we can stop hunger and cure the sick the world would be so much greater. I believe in love, something which unlike religion, cannot be used as a tool of misdirected anger or a scapegoat for when problems become seemingly “too difficult” to solve. Who are we to force constrictions and definitions to love or God? Let’s make change where it really counts.
I am glad Michael made the decision not to appear on CNN and other major news outlets.
While the culture has changed in many ways for the better in terms of an improved climate for GLBT youth – that progress has been hard won and there is still much work to do across the country in terms of combating homophobia and making schools and communities safe places for all.
Unfortunately, you wouldn’t have to go very far to find a 7th grader whose views are very much in sync with Michael Glatze’s new world view. “Homosexuality, ew, gross.”
I really didn’t need to hear that on CNN as well.