Hopefully I’ll have video up by this weekend at the latest. Here’s a link to the transcript. Alan Chambers appeared opposite Mark Shields of HRC. (Since when does HRC care or know anything about ex-gays? Shields admits he never even went through an ex-gay program.)
Of note, Alan even seemed a bit surprised by Haggard’s 3-week transformation to full heterosexuality:
COOPER: Alan, you believe it is possible to stop being gay. Ted Haggard, though, says that he — this is something he wrestled with his entire life. Does it make sense to you that he was able to stop this allegedly in three weeks of counseling?
ALAN CHAMBERS, PRESIDENT, EXODUS INTERNATIONAL: Well, the truth is that’s not my story, and it’s not the story of anyone I’ve ever met. I don’t know Ted Haggard’s journey over the last three weeks, but like Mark, I would say that it’s something that — it doesn’t seem like something that is really the case.
And of course Alan dances around semantics when asked if he’s still attracted to men:
COOPER: So you entered the counseling. Do you still have attraction to men? You’re just choosing not to act on it?
CHAMBERS: My attraction greatly diminished over the course of many years. Sixteen years into it, my life isn’t even remotely the same as it once was, but I often say that I will never be as though I never was.
And the truth is that I’m a human being. And for me to say that I could never be attracted to men again, or that I couldn’t be tempted would mean that I’m not human, and that’s just not the case.
Then Mark Shields from says something truly brilliant and obvious we need to hear more of in the mainstream press:
You know, I wonder if Ted Haggard had been told as a child that it was OK to be gay and that he could have a rich, full life, if his life story wouldn’t have been less painful and contorted.
Alan Chambers then acknowledged some gay people reconcile their faith and sexuality. This is a pretty radical departure from Focus’ position, which it had begun to appear was calling the shots at Exodus.
COOPER: And is that based on a belief that you cannot be Christian and gay? I mean, is the wonderful life you’re talking about a religious life which you feel was not accessible to you as an openly, proud, happy gay man?
CHAMBERS: Not at all. I think that there are plenty of gay people out there who are Christians, as well, but for me, homosexuality wasn’t compatible with my faith, and my faith was much more important than that.
ALAN CHAMBERS, PRESIDENT, EXODUS INTERNATIONAL: Well, … I would say that it’s something that — it doesn’t seem like something that is really the case.
I actually think those words is a bigger revelation than anything else:
Alan Chambers does not believe the testimony of an ex-gay. Excuse me?
Aren’t we always expected meant to take them at face value, and without criticism or examining them too closely? Doesn’t such (oftentimes as equally unbelievable, or even factually incorrect) testimony form the very basis of Exodus’ claims???
Interesting glimpse at the reality that Chambers reveals at times, compared to the fantasy that his Christian benefactors might prefer to hear from him.
I found something else in the transcript that Chambers said to be rather interesting:
A few weeks ago in the article A Valued Life, Warren Throckmorton, PhD, concluded with:
At the time I thought to myself, ‘isn’t the valued life one should lead not also a perfect life?’ Evidently, Throckmorton believes not. Throckmorton is apparently saying that the perfect life is that which your feelings are not in conflict with one’s ‘lifestyle.’ Chambers’ concept of one choosing “to live beyond their feelings” appears to be in line with Throckmorton’s new hypthosis in his article [A Valued Life].
Together they appear to be drawing closer to a truth concerning homosexuality. The question is, however, how much of the politicalization of their respective efforts will draw them from it.
. . .
No, Mr. Chambers. It would just mean that you’re straight. And your equivocating here strongly implies that you’re not.
(Bold effects mine)
From Exodus:
If sin is evil and “homosexual involvement” includes that of a love relationship, then this statement is nothing short of equating love itself with evil. Blasphemy to the core.
______
There are tons of examples that I could cite from the book God’s Grace and the Homosexual Next Door, but this seemed to be the most salient point from the parts Chambers wrote (Chapter 4, p88):
Homosexuality would therefore be unholy, and since the word holy relates to the word whole, at best homosexuals would be spiritually “broken” and at worst, Evil.
I could at least respect someone who flat out said that it’s NOT possible to be Christian and gay, or at least clarified that “gay people out there who are Christians” are still spiritually broken. So I find his response to Cooper’s question to be disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst. Not that so called Christians like Chambers who lie and approve of lying in the name of truth comes as any surprise though.
I’m sorry Alan but your approval of lies and hypocrisy invalidates any claim of yours to Christianity, concern for Biblical truth, or even truth itself. You’ve betrayed our trust and you know it.
I DON”T believe Haggard can change in 3 weeks or 3 years. When are these people going to learn that you can’t change sexual orientation? I myself went through Desert
Streams in Los Angeles and I didn’t change and I know others from the group that didn’t change either. Haggard will continue to “white knuckle” being gay…thats the bottom line HE”S GAY. Also to have someone on the show that never went throuth a ex-gay group….doesn’t hold no water. I can only shake my head.
I watched the segment and thought that Mark Shields did fine. It was a relatively short segment, mostly about Haggard. In some ways, it brought out some more moderate sounding rhetoric from Alan Chambers that probably would’t have been there if he were confronted by Wayne Besen or someone from Ex-Gay Watch. Also, Mark’s voice wasn’t dripping with the contempt that others who have watched Alan Chambers over the years would have a difficult time hiding.
I am curious about this “living beyond my feelings” line that Alan is now trotting out. I wonder how long before other ex-gays are parroting the same line. When it comes to language with this crowd, it’s always something.
Alan states, “My attraction greatly dimminished over the course of many years. Sixteen years into it my life isn’t even remotely the same as it once was.”
Of course this often happens with age. As we get older, sexual desire often diminishes. So is it Jesus making these changes or simply the natural dwindling of male libido?
In many of these ex-gay testimonies the complexity of human sexuality and biology rarely come into the discussion.
I would love to see the discussion between Haggard’s Id and Superego (well, he is going into psychology):
Id: “I so want to go visit a male prostitute and use lots of speed.”
Superego: “Stop, you are so awesomely heterosexual though.”
I really doubt that someone who had feelings so deep that they had to search out and pay for a prostitute would be completely straight in a short period of time. I would not trust him as far as I could throw him. The public does not trust him either. This is a poll on AOL (not necessarily scientific):
Are you convinced Ted Haggard is “completely heterosexual”?
No 72%
Who knows? 22%
Yes 6%
Total Votes: 155,508
Alan has said here before – more than once – that gay identity is sinful.
This seems inconsistent with his statements about gay Christians.
Alan, is it:
A – there’s been a shift in your thinking,
B – one can be both a Christian and living in a sinful lifestyle, or
C – you have a different answer depending on who you are talking to?
C!
Re: Alan, is it:
A – there’s been a shift in your thinking,
B – one can be both a Christian and living in a sinful lifestyle, or
C – you have a different answer depending on who you are talking to?
Based on what he said in his recent book “God’s Grace and the Homosexual Next Door”, I’m pretty much convinced it’s option “C”.
Christians believe that mary was a virgin, literally impregnated by God. Our understanding of the human body makes this impossible. Leaps of logic or the complete absence of logic is the cornerstone of many Christians’ belief systems. For non-believers, this is nearly impossible to grasp. For them, this is common sense.
Parsing their logic on minutiae of “can a gay person be a christian” is pointless. Most of these people believe in rivers of blood, mansions in the sky, the earth is a few thousand years old and virgin births literally.
Trying to make sense of a belief system riddled with this many holes is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or trying to argue with the mentally retarded. Both are a waste of breath.
Don, due to time constraints I’ll let others be more eloquent, but please do not generalize entire groups of people in such a narrow and disparaging way. We are not here to attack or belittle anyone’s belief or lack thereof, and many of the writers and commenters here are indeed Christian.
Whether Alan Chambers believes one can be both gay and Christian, and how consistent he is in that belief, is indeed a very important issue. Your implied assumption that those who are gay must be “non-believers” only underscores this.
We welcome civil and reasoned debate, and you are welcome to participate, but remarks like those above won’t be tolerated.
Christianity is irrelevant. I stopped caring long ago about whether they accepted me, rejected me, or dictated conditions under which I might be worthy of love.
I reject the archaic, irrelevant religion instead. People no longer worship Zeus or Aphrodite, and would consider it silly if you asked them why they didn’t. The time has come for people to realize that the three abrahamic religions have all outlived their usefulness.
Don and Jim:
Christianity is far from irrelevant. Its unfortunate that the Bible thumping fundamentalists have shaped your perception of Christianity in such a negative way. There are several factions of Christianity that have a more enlightened view of things but its the fundies that steal the spotlight. (Much in the same way that fundies like to wrap up all homosexuals in the same category…sex crazed, child raping, drug taking, STD ridden sodomites. But we know that isn’t true). Comments like yours give you about the same credibility as Fred Phelps.
The allegorical language of the Bible is what confuses a lot of people. The problem is people fail to look at the audience these stories were written too and to extract the true essence of the teaching without getting excited over the fantastic details…like rivers of blood and mansions in the sky. If you do any theological research on these types of allegories you’ll find that they’re typically rooted in specific “real” activities that served a very specific purpose.
You may not care that Christians accept you and that’s fine…but I care and I find its people with inflated rigid egos, bent on extreme positions and being “right”, that fan the flames of hatred and conflict in this world. If you don’t want to be placed in that category, try reaching out to those people you have differences with and look beyond any judgemental positions.
On a lighter note.. people worship those that they connect with. Who said Zeus worship is dead…
https://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/21/ancient.gods.ap/index.html
Jim, your post against Christianity is off-topic. Off-topic comments are not allowed. Please confine your remarks to the topic. Violations of XGW guidelines are subject to disciplinary action.
there’s little point to getting into it with believers in a magic realm who use that belief to demand that others respect their political positions. the admonition against homosexuality is such a small, small part of their magic book that this current obsession with the subject as the very definition of their faith is political and pathological. you don’t see any of these same folks adhering to the admonitions against haircuts and beard trims, wearing cotton with wool, having a shrimp salad, or calling for the death penalty for kids who sass their mother. i don’t give a hoot how they feel about their own or anyone else’s sexual orientation.
Ah, we are being visited by the athiests.
As you know, I’m sure, all religious viewpoints are welcome, including conservative evangelical fundamentalists, deists, wiccans, and – yes – athiests.
But what we don’t allow is religious debate that is off the topic of the thread.
We will not be debating whether the Pope is God’s representative on earth, whether baptism must be by emersion, whether Wiccans open portals of evil, whether Joseph Smith was a prophet, or whether Christianity is just a myth.
If you want to discuss that, by all means do so on your own blogsite. But this thread is not the place. Here we are discussing Alan Chambers’ comments on CNN.
The issue with Alan Chambers is not about his religion. It is about his honesty or lack thereof. He is very dishonest and inconsistent about his level of attraction to men. He tells Terry Gross that he is “completely heterosexual;” he tells a newspaper reporter writing a story about Haggard that Alan’s wife and friends “keep him accountable” and away from gay temptation; and now he is telling Anderson Cooper that he is living “beyond his feelings” and that he is only human when questions of gay temptation come up.
These three statements tell us that he is not completely heterosexual. In fact, the comment that he is “living beyond his feelings” sounds like he isn’t the least bit heterosexual. His wife must have taken great comfort in his public pronouncement that he has renounced his feelings in order to have a life with her.
He pedals this lie of sexual orietnation conversion to vulnerable people that he and his organization are exploiting for monetary and political reasons. He further pedals his lie in an attempt to deny civil rights to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered individuals who are living their lives honestly and openly. If his lies only affected himself and his family, it would be sad enough. The fact that he uses his lie to exploit and oppress others is beyond the pale.
John: These three statements tell us that he is not completely heterosexual.
John, but there’s no need for the redundancy! (Sorry, I’ve spend 8 days editing a vile report.) A person who is “not completely heterosexual” is simply … a person who is not heterosexual. He may as well also declare he is “not completely pregnant”.
QED: “Alan Chambers said he is not heterosexual.” etc.
But, then again, Alan Chambers says a lot of things. Much of it contradictory, and therefore impossible to all be true.
I don’t think he does it just to exploit others: I’m sure such behaviour provided to him a comfortable Alan-World with its own internal set of logic long before he was selected to be the talking head for the “gays can (and therefore should) change” movement. It reminds me, at times, of circus clowns desperately peddling; attempting to stay upright on a unicycle.
And you all know what I think about clowns…
——————————–
Off thread topic, but on XGW posting topic…
Timothy, but we’re often visted by atheists! (non-deists, more accurately, for many).
“Ah, we are being visited by the Christians.” … well, you get what I pointing out. No need to break the rules when reminding others not to break the rules — only mothers are permitted to do that 🙂
(And I’ve got to take a break from editing!)
grantdale,
I don’t think that Alan is living in some sort of Alan-World with its own internal sense of logic. That would mean that he is operating from some elaborate set of delusions. When he is caught saying something that is not true, his own actions and words indicate that he recognizes that he just got caught. He is living in the same world that the rest of are.
Instead, he is operating from an elaborate set of lies that all begin with this myth that he is no longer gay. All the subsequent lies seem to flow from there.
The Onion has a fake “man on the street” feature about recent news stories; Haggard’s recovery is featured this week.
https://www.theonion.com/content/node/58365
Jim said: “Christianity is irrelevant. I stopped caring long ago about whether they accepted me, rejected me, or dictated conditions under which I might be worthy of love.”
Sad. What do you want to bet that Christians inspired him to stop caring? Christ’s church is supposed to be the place where people feel welcomed, accepted and reassured of God’s abundant love for all of us. There are no “conditions” under which we are worthy of God’s love. He loves because he IS love.
“Lord, protect us from your disciples…”
I would appreciate Alan Chambers more, if he wasn’t trying to sound as if he’s oh, so special and enlightened and qualified to speak so negatively on gay life.
Not just in the clinical sense, but his org is politically active against gay equality as well.
We see that James Dobson will not only lie and misrepresent research. But he’ll be unapologetic, dismiss and disrespect the researchers!
I would respect a person of faith, if they respected evidence and other people relevant to their activity.
I would respect this talk Chambers is talking if open honesty and the ability to use an opportunity for gay young people to be themselves and adjust without their intervention to LET the evidence speak for itself.
Faith can…and MUST reconcile with curiosity, mystery and evidence.
I don’t think it’s too much to ask to let certain things reveal themselves and not just take Chambers or anyone else like him at face value without him doing the like for others in opposition.
But that’s not how he rolls.
Our lives as gay and straight together is far from a closed book and done deal by his standards.
He’s not even consistent with his own criteria, something also proven by society in general.
We will move away from faith communities for that reason.
Being unreasonable, dishonest and avoiding forums where a challenge will occur isn’t the stuff of committed and courageous people of faith.
But Chambers and Dobson like to think they are important warriors and courageous players on the culture war stage.
Far from it.
I see arrogant cowards instead playing with other people’s lives and the commitment of our civil laws and opportunity to learn more and what’s crucial about how gay and straight life is wedded together.
There is faith enough to believe in the worth of all human beings not like you.
And there is religious principle enough to know it as a foundation on which to keep building, rather than tearing down.
I’ll never put down a person’s need for faith, belief in God and love of their religious foundation.
But I will put down and never respect a person who hides behind it to compromise others and our ability to move forward together as a race.
Alan Chambers comments show that he is on a very slippery slope that will benefit those who consider that homosexuality is a valid orientation and not immoral activity. Homosexuality = valid sexual orientation is winning.
You could hear it in Anderson Cooper’s voice, that he believes that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation. The “Homosexuality is a Sin” crowd is being minimized and marginalized in this society. I think that a lot of people now know of level headed gays and know that gays are just fine and not a threat to society.