Exgay activist and parent Anthony Falzarano says he sensed trouble at a Florida Christian school with a 29-year-old teacher now accused of unlawful sexual activity with a 16-year-old.
According to the Sun-Sentinel in South Florida, in March 2005 Falzarano removed his 17-year-old son Carter from the school “because of a disagreement with administrators and concerns about [teacher Chad] Stoffel.”
Falzarano founded Parents and Friends of Exgays (PFOX) in the 1990s but was ousted when he accused the religious right of exploiting the exgay movement while providing little financial assistance. He subsequently co-founded Parents and Friends Christian Ministries.
The Sun-Sentinel reports:
At a meeting of parents Tuesday morning in the gym of the school, west of West Palm Beach, security and school officials forced Falzarano to leave after he confronted Headmaster Sam Skelton about Stoffel and the circumstances surrounding the teacher’s sudden resignation in December after 5 1/2 years.
After the hourlong session, the administration told reporters, “We have and will continue to take all reasonable steps to protect our students and families in a safe and nurturing environment.”
The Sun-Sentinel provides some background on Falzarano’s involvement in the case:
“I just knew he was spending too much time with the boys,” said Falzarano, a self-described “former homosexual” from Palm Beach. “I felt very uncomfortable with him.”
He says he knows the warning signs due to his experience as executive director of the group Parents and Friends Christian Ministries, part of the so-called national “ex-gay” movement that says it can help turn gay people straight.
Shortly after the resignation, Stoffel apparently made his way to Love In Action, the nation’s leading exgay live-in therapy program, located in Memphis, Tenn. Utilizing a largely unaccredited staff, LIA claims to treat “sexual addiction” and “sexual abuse” in adults through a pricey live-in program — while also offering pricey, weeks-long, all-day live-in counseling to youths.
Once at LIA, Stoffel allegedly confessed to a counselor.
Sheriff’s investigators initially met with Stoffel on Feb. 9, when he was undergoing counseling at Love In Action International Inc., a Memphis-based ministry dedicated to rooting out homosexual behavior. It was at the ministry that Stoffel confessed to a counselor, who contacted the Sheriff’s Office, according to reports.
He was arrested Saturday.
Free on bail, Stoffel is charged with unlawful sexual activity with minors and battery of a child, according to the Sun-Sentinel.
The article says that Stoffel was a teacher at a Christian school. As such, it is highly unlikely that he was “living a homosexual lifestyle”. I’m sure more info is yet to come.
What I found interesting is that many exgay and antigay groups do not want openly homosexual teachers in the schools, which would mean going into the closet. I suspect this guy, who may or may not be homosexual, is not open about his sexuality. It makes sexuality quite subversive.
A very interesting “Today’s Thought” from the front of the Love In Action site…
What’s the bet that’s gone very soon…
Speaking of the Love in Action site, I just downloaded and read the application form. Wow. Some of it was just plain icky (‘have you ever had crabs?’) and some was downright scary (references required of parents detailing developmental issues that may have resulted in the offspring becoming same-sex attracted.) A lot of info requested of the applicant shows that they take their role as mental health professionals seriously. Too bad they don’t have the credentials to pull it off – talk about screwing with peoples lives.
I just hope the number of people trashing LIA for informing authorities in this matter is few. If this guy had gone to a certified psychotherapist they would have been required to report him to authorities as well.
Since the mess with Mary Kay LeTourneau, WOMEN sexual predators on their young male students is making news more regularly.
There tended to be a nudge, nudge, wink, wink attitude when such affairs were revealed.
However, little follow up would be done regarding how these young boys lives were disrupted after the fact.
The worst case scenarios would be pregnancy, or suicidal tendencies.
But these consequences would rarely be mentioned.
In some states, heterosexuals can marry their victims.
And usually do because of a pregnancy anchoring the couple to each other.
I’m glad that heterosexual female predators are getting more light shone on them.
And hetero male predators.
But the fact remains…..serious background checks, mental and emotional maturity tests need to be done on ALL adults who are put in charge of young people.
Draconian rules that only ban or restrict homosexual males doesn’t do anything valuable or sensible.
For credibility’s sake, please be accurate. You’ve substantively misrepresented Love in Action’s programs.
1) LIA does not “treat,” nor does it claim to “treat” the conditions you mention. It is not a mental health facility and as such does not require “accreditation.” There is a current politically-motivated lawsuit in which anti-LIA activists worked with the state in an attempt to impose license requirements on LIA in order for it to exist as a treatment facility for mentally ill patients, which it is not. The judge recently recognized that LIA was not compelled to comply with license requirement BECAUSE they were not “treating” participants.
2) The youth program IS NOT a live-in program. An easily-found, easily-understood description of Refuge is found on its website https://www.asafeplace.org/.
Groups like Love in Action exist because there is a demand for their services. They minister to those that approach them and ask for help. Like it or not, there ARE people that have same-sex attraction that DO NOT want to live as homosexuals and are willing to struggle against it for their own reasons. The attacks on these organizations are unwarranted. Why not just co-exist and accept the fact that some people want to break the grip of a way of life they are choosing not to live. People seeking another way are not the brain-washed puppets you regularly portray them to be, they are human beings making a choice different from yours.
I don’t understand the need to be so loose with the facts, unless misdirection is vital to making your argument, which certainly diminishes your authority.
“For credibility’s sake, please be accurate.”
We take this charge seriously. Since we constantly criticize anti/ex-gay groups for their blatant disregard for truth, we seek to be as accurate as possible. As you can see, Mike made corrections above to be more technically accurate.
But let me address the falsehood you stated.
LIA was restricted from distributing psychiatric medications and from ministering to people who are undergoing mental health care. LIA has sued the state to recover that ability claiming that this restriction has caused a significant reduction in LIA’s business.
Thus, when you say it is “not a mental health facility”, you are being deceptive. It is currently forbidden to be such a facility but is desperately trying to become one again.
You say, “Groups like Love in Action exist because there is a demand for their services. They minister to those that approach them and ask for help. Like it or not, there ARE people that have same-sex attraction that DO NOT want to live as homosexuals and are willing to struggle against it for their own reasons. The attacks on these organizations are unwarranted. ”
If review XGW closely, you will see that we do not attack LIA for providing a service. We recognize that some people wish to change their sexual orientation and we do not seek to stop them from doing so. Some of us think it futile and others of us unnecessary, yet none of us oppose those who wish to pursue this route. Nor would we oppose a non-political organization that held themselves to standards of honesty.
What we object to, in the instance of LIA, is the following:
1. Youth are at times required to attend LIA programs against their wishes. Although LIA claims this is not the case, there are documented cases – the most recent being a young man taken to LIA in handcuffs and told that if he left that LIA would have him thrown into juvenile detention.
We oppose coercion.
2. John Smid, the director, is not honest in his portrayal of “the homosexual lifestyle” and uses “facts” that he knows not to be true. LIA distorts and implies and downright lies to present an image of gay people that is not reflective of the vast majority of gay people.
We oppose liars.
3. LIA, through Smid’s involvement in Exodus, actively participates in a political agenda aimed at denying gay persons an equal footing before the law. Exodus seeks to broadcast the falsehood that NO gay people are intrinsically gay and that therefore discrimination based on sexual orientation is not against gay people but against sex acts. Even assuming that some people can become ex-gay (I think this is as yet undetermined) there is certainly no basis to claim that no gay persons are intrinsically gay. Indeed recent studies suggest just the opposite. Denying those gay people who cannot become heterosexual equality before law is immoral.
We oppose inequality.
4. LIA is not careful to ensure that their participants come to no harm. They do not make certain that the programs provide more benefit than detriment to the participants. In fact, it has been document that some participants leave LIA in serious depression, much worse than when they arrived. This latest situation shows that LIA further endangers their participants by mixing molesters with youth.
We oppose endangerment.
5. LIA does not hold itself accountable for its claims of success. LIA does no follow up and defines success in ways that the layperson would define as failure.
We oppose unaccountability.
Should we ever find an ex-gay group that also opposes coercion, liars, inequality, endangerment, and unaccountability we will not attack it. We promise. We might even go so far as to recommend it to anyone wishing to seek reorientation.
But don’t hold your breath.
The only reason anybody would NOT WANT to live as homosexual when they are homosexual is because they have listened to the lies of bigots.
And I love hearing an “ex-“gay supporter plead for tolerance and co-existence. Quit using the government to try to enforce your irrational and unsupportable religious beliefs on me, and I’ll be more than happy to never have anything to do with ignorant bigot filth again.
Raidernation says “Like it or not, there ARE people that have same-sex attraction that DO NOT want to live as homosexuals and are willing to struggle against it for their own reasons.”
Raidernation, the trouble is they are not struggling against it for their own reasons, they are stuggling against it for someone else’s reasons, usually the reason’s belonging to whoever writes and promotes the bible. The “choice” to be “exgay” is certainly not equivalent to the “choice” to be gay. The “exgay” “choice” is made under duress and does not come from within. The gay “choice” comes from desires arising spontaneously within, it is what comes naturally and most easily to the individual, this choice should never be denied as long as no one is being hurt. And its not for you to decide for anyone else what is helpful or hurtful for that individual – you only have the right to decide that for yourself.
Being “exgay” is the lesser choice because it involves sacrificing oneself to others when it does not benefit the others at all. It is extremely selfish of society to ask anyone to be exgay. There must be a balance between what is good for society and the individual – asking anyone to be exgay is a whopping injustice.
RaiderNation, you left out some important facts:Until it came to wider attention, LIA was claiming expertise in mental health and drug and alcohol addiction. This is despite the fact they had no such expertise.If you wish, you may send and email to Warren Throckmorton and ask him about the changes that suddenly appeared all over LIA website. Suddenly, they publically became the religious cult they’ve always actually been.LIA was compelled to send people away who had previously been living on-site. Why? (short answer: they were operataing an unlicensed facility). This is the only reason they are no longer operating illegally. Would they have done this if the spotlight had not fallen on them? (short answer: fat chance.)Did you notice the sudden addition of new staff in Jan 2006? After 30 years, love of BeJebus is no longer sufficient “qualification” — they went and hired counselors. What changed? Would they have done that if not forced to?Check the changes to the intake forms from mid-2005 to the ones used now. Coincidence?If you care to, you will note that the opinion at ExGayWatch is that people both have the right and deserve to live however they wish. That includes people who want to exgay themself.But those people — and those who want nothing to do with exgay groups, or those who want to pressure a family member into exgaydom — also deserve some basic consumer protection.Regardless of what motivates them, or their claimed insights into the powers of God, LIA are a fraud because the public promise does not match the real outcomes. You tell me what LIA’s “success rate” is. Potential clients deserve to know what’s going on.At least, we think they do. It’s called informed choice.
This will be a long post as I hope to address all the responses to my initial comments in one shot. Thank you to the site administrator for issuing the correction and demonstrating that honest debate is valued here.
“LIA was restricted from distributing psychiatric medications and from ministering to people who are undergoing mental health care. LIA has sued the state to recover that ability claiming that this restriction has caused a significant reduction in LIA’s business.
Thus, when you say it is “not a mental health facility”, you are being deceptive. It is currently forbidden to be such a facility but is desperately trying to become one again.”
This is flat-out wrong. LIA filed suit in order to be properly designated as a ministry, not as a mental health facility. LIA does not administer or prescribe medication, nor do they provide therapy, nor do they desire to “become one again.” They offer discipleship programs for those who choose to participate. The late-coming license requirement by the state was a result of relentless lobbying and several avenues of attack (such as baseless child abuse allegations that were investigated and determined to be false) in TN by groups opposed to the ministry. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you simply have the facts wrong. In that spirit, please read the complaint in its entirety. It is clear and concise and should clear up any confusion about the suit: https://www.telladf.org/UserDocs/LIAvTNcomplaint.pdf
“…there are documented cases – the most recent being a young man taken to LIA in handcuffs”
This reference is surprising in light of the fact that this site criticized a report released recently that relied heavily on the story of DJ Butler. Notice that the group that brought Butler to Memphis has pulled all references to him from their site. Butler has exactly ZERO credibility (QAC sees this) and I can’t believe a fairly responsible website like yours would hang your hat on his shaky tales. The story about being forced to LIA in handcuffs is pure fabrication not worthy of retelling here.
Youths that come to LIA with their parents are afforded a trial period and are not forced to remain against their will if they choose to leave, plain and simple. If DJ Butler is your only example of coercion, you haven’t made your case.
“John Smid, the director, is not honest in his portrayal of “the homosexual lifestyle” and uses “facts” that he knows not to be true.”
Quite a charge. Care to back it up? Could it be that you’ve attached the word “lies” to thing you simply disagree with?
“LIA, through Smid’s involvement in Exodus, actively participates in a political agenda aimed at denying gay persons an equal footing before the law.”
For example…
“LIA is not careful to ensure that their participants come to no harm. They do not make certain that the programs provide more benefit than detriment to the participants. In fact, it has been document that some participants leave LIA in serious depression, much worse than when they arrived.”
Please provide your evidence. A claim of this sort requires the backing of an independent study. Even if “some participants” report this (weak and anecdotal), what about the rest that have a positive experience (equally anecdotal, but as valid as your methodology)?
“This latest situation shows that LIA further endangers their participants by mixing molesters with youth.”
This is a leap, a stretch and profoundly unfair from what I have read. I’ll use your own words: “Once at LIA, Stoffel allegedly confessed to a counselor.” So, LIA didn’t know what this guy had done, no? Subsequently, didn’t LIA report this criminal? Sounds like a pretty responsible series of actions on LIA’s part, no?
“LIA does not hold itself accountable for its claims of success. LIA does no follow up and defines success in ways that the layperson would define as failure.”
Explain. I don’t know what this means.
Tom:
“The only reason anybody would NOT WANT to live as homosexual when they are homosexual is because they have listened to the lies of bigots.”
Unsupportable. How can you claim to know the heart and the experience of all of these people?
“Quit using the government to try to enforce your irrational and unsupportable religious beliefs on me, and I’ll be more than happy to never have anything to do with ignorant bigot filth again.”
How is the government being used to enforce what you see as my obvious stupidity? After reading this from you, I’ll ask an objective observer who sounds like the bigot in this exchange.
Randi:
“the trouble is they are not struggling against it for their own reasons, they are stuggling against it for someone else’s reasons, usually the reason’s belonging to whoever writes and promotes the bible.”
How can you pretend to know this? In your world, is anyone struggling to live their lives in a way that you don’t understand an ignorant dupe?
“The “choice” to be “exgay” is certainly not equivalent to the “choice” to be gay. The “exgay” “choice” is made under duress and does not come from within”
Wow. I don’t know if you live as a homosexual or not, but you have certainly shown your colors. Living as a homosexual is a superior choice? Why, because you’ve made that choice or support only those that have? I’m in no position to pretend to know what same-sex attraction is like. I guess I’m a 1 on the popular scale (or whichever side indicates no same-sex proclivity). But I can understand that people are all built differently and have different inclinations on a scale all their own. It doesn’t seem like you have that same understanding for people that choose to leave the kind of life you’ve chosen to continue. I would not call you a mindless dupe because you believe what you believe. I don’t think you should characterize those that make different choices than you as inferior and unable to think for themselves.
“And its not for you to decide for anyone else what is helpful or hurtful for that individual – you only have the right to decide that for yourself.”
Exactly! After reading this, I’m wondering what the basis of the rest of your post is!
I’m curious as to what relation to LIAR this “RaiderNation” person has.
Seems a bit more intimate than a run of the mill supporter.
Scott–
Sorry to disappoint you bud. I just stumbled onto the story a couple months ago and have been drawn in to the interesting discussion on both sides of the issue since. I like a good debate and this is one the places where that can happen. The folks that run this site are some of the most responsible, intelligent and formidable players in this cyber-game…so I do try to do my homework before getting involved. Thanks for the compliment!
They minister to those that approach them and ask for help…
Like Zach Stark and D.J. Butler for example.
Uhm…no…wait…
Bruce–
You might want to read this very site’s view on relying on using Stark as a martyr:
“The authors make extensive usage of Zach Stark’s story, including quoting from his online journal. Not only is this inconsiderate and intrusive (assuming that Zach did not authorize it) but it is also foolish. We have not heard from Zach as to whether he hated or loved his time a Love In Action. This could come back to bite them.”
https://exgaywatch.com/blog/archives/2006/03/youth_in_the_ex_1.html
We have not heard from Stark since his return from LIA as far as I know. Could it be that he found his time there worthwhile despite his prior misgivings?
Obviously, you didn’t bother to read the portion of my post that covers DJ Butler. I wouldn’t hang my hat on his fabrications if I were you. Queer Action Coalition realized they stepped in it after rolling him out to the media…they have removed ALL references to him from their website after going through the trouble of bringing him to TN and holding a big press conference introducing him as their poster boy. Isn’t that one of those “things that make you go hmmmmmmmm?”
The post-LIA Stark and the Mysteriously Disappearing Butler do not make your case. If this is all you have, you might be honest with yourself and rethink your “LIA=Soviet Gulag” position.
Maybe it’s not as bad as you would like it to be.
RaiderNation,In keeping with now general agreement, could you (and anyone else) please refrain from referring to that young man by name. No 16 year old deserves the attention (regardless of what his father did on the 700 Club.) We all know who he is, and the position he’s in. The concerns should be obvious if you bothered to read all the posts on the subject here.The QAC has also clearly detailed why they are holding off further comment on that subject. They have not “removed all reference”, as you can read for yourself.As an ever straight, and supporter of LIA, perhaps you should contact Peterson Toscano for more information — rather than swallowing LIA’s press releases or the one-sided legal submissions that they are (of course) going to make. Peterson not only was there, but maintains contact with previous clients. Ask him how bad it is, and try to imagine yourself being either compelled or coerced into such a place.And I’ll ask you bluntly:
(And to clue you in: LIA could become licensed tomorrow to run two group homes for a mere $500 or so. Obviously that isn’t LIA’s issue with over-sight. What do you think is?)
Raidernation if you think there’s something I don’t understand about “exgays” by all means fill me in. Every exgay I’ve seen is very religious, trot out the non religious “exgays” if you doubt “exgays” are “exgay” because of what others want, not because of what they want for themselves. From what I’ve seen the exgay movement is almost entirely religiously motivated, there is no reason for anyone to want to change their same sex attractions other than the negative views of others in society.
Accepting one’s same sex attractions requires no effort, they just happen. Being exgay requires one to make a lifelong effort to monitor and channel same sex attractions into opposite sexual behavioral outcomes, being exgay is a psychological drag on a person’s life and happiness, its ongoing effort to change that would be better spent on something productive like caring for a sick relative, or starting an exercise program. Being gay is superior to being exgay in that obsessive energy changing for other’s whims requires effort being gay does not. What’s so hard to understand?
I’m not trying to take away anyone’s choice to be “exgay”, but I do consider it my obligation to advise all potential “exgays” in the interests of fairness its a bad idea to make major sacrifices in your life for people who don’t care if they hurt you or cost you a big part of your happiness.
The person who has no concern about what anyone else thinks of their having a same sex attraction is not interested in becoming “exgay”.
I never said anyone is a dupe for being “exgay” – its perfectly understandable that in a climate of social oppression and under threats of eternal spiritual torture some would consider being “exgay” the path of least resistance. Take away that and you have no “exgays”. You admit you don’t know what it is to be same sex attracted, and yet you question my perceptions on it with a dismissive “wow!”? Wow…
I doubt I live any homosexual lifestyle as you envision it. And what’s it to you if I do? My concern for the “exgays” is that they make a bad decision and sacrifice their happiness for nothing, if they want to knowingly through away their happiness on the whims of anti-gay religious people who don’t care about them I won’t stop them if I’ve had a chance to warn them.
RaiderNation
You seem to misunderstand how this site works. This is not one of the sites where you challenge every half sentence and demand examples which have already been provided in length. We do not need to rehash every little detail in every single post. We expect that participants have a reasonable knowledge of the other entries here.
If you have an objection to a point, make the objection. It is not adequate to simply say “Really? How? Prove it”. That works best at the confrontation sites. Thus, when we say that LIA makes claims that are not backed by fact, we do not need to again go back and list them for you. Sorry. Not our obligation.
Nonetheless, he’s some response directly to my original points – I’ll leave it for others to respond to your mentions to them as they wish:
1. Youth are at times required to attend LIA programs against their wishes.
I used the example of DJ Butler. You counter that we at XGW criticized a report based on DJ Butler. If you are referring to the report called Youth in the Crosshairs, I was personally the one who was critical of the report. My criticism was of the writing of the report and what I felt to be a rush to conclusions. It was not, as you implied, of Butler’s testimony. Incidentally, my opinions are my own, not the opinion of “this site”.
You are quick to demand proof of this, that and the other. But you offer none when you claim that Butler is lying.
QAC has not disavowed Butler but, unlike so many anti-gay groups, is very responsible with their claims and so are holding back for further elucidation. Here’s part of what they say:
“For the record, although we have to be careful about what we present, state as truthful, and get involved in…we feel that regardless of the arguments at hand…D.J. wanted to speak out about Love In Action because of his coercion into the program.”
However, if you don’t like the example of Butler, perhaps you will recall another young man who was sent to LIA against his wishes. I hesitate to bring him up because I think he has been overexposed against his wishes (interestingly, those critical of LIA did not use his last name and tried to respect his privacy as much as possible until those favorable of LIA held a press conference revealing his full identity).
But surely you don’t think my wish to be polite invalidates the point.
At some point you have to stop denying that it happens and question whether it should happen. It may not happen in great numbers, but it should not happen at all.
2. John Smid, the director, is not honest in his portrayal of “the homosexual lifestyle” and uses “facts” that he knows not to be true.
You responded: “Quite a charge. Care to back it up? Could it be that you’ve attached the word “lies” to thing you simply disagree with?”
No. It couldn’t be that. Unlike anti-gay activists I do not identify “truth” based on whether or not I agree with it. Many, many times here we have identified lies of LIA and John Smid. Feel free to do a search and I’m sure you’ll find plenty or you can just start here:
https://exgaywatch.com/blog/archives/2005/07/love_in_actions.html
3. LIA, through Smid’s involvement in Exodus, actively participates in a political agenda aimed at denying gay persons an equal footing before the law.
To which you respond: “For example…”
I don’t think you are unaware of Smid’s involvement in Exodus, an organization that seeks to abolish marriage between gay persons nationwide along with efforts to overturn and reverse domestic partnership arrangements or even same-sex partner benefits. Your proclaimed ignorance does not place me under obligation to provide examples of the obvious.
4. LIA is not careful to ensure that their participants come to no harm.
You respond with “Please provide your evidence. A claim of this sort requires the backing of an independent study.”
There has been a study, not specifically of LIA, but of reparative therapy wherein a large percentage of participants believed that they were harmed by the process. It is irresponsible to offer similar services and make no effort to track if you are harming as well.
Further, we have had a long testimony of incidences from people who have posted here indicating that they left LIA in depression and, in some instances, with suicidal impulses. Unfortunately LIA had not performed a study to determine the extent of the problem. And this would be a reasonable expectation of any organization that has had the numbers of people make such claims. At some point they need to be responsible to see if they cause harm rather than just send someone like you to say “prove it”.
However, LIA did not take steps in advance to ensure that a child molester did not have access to youth. That’s example enough of their inattention of risk and harm.
5. LIA does not hold itself accountable for its claims of success. LIA does no follow up and defines success in ways that the layperson would define as failure.
You respond: “Explain. I don’t know what this means.”
Sure you do. They do not do any follow up to determine if their “successes” remain a success. The numbers provided by Smid do not have any substantiation.
Also, Exodus (of which Smid is an executive) defines “change” to be of a lifestyle rather than of attraction. This means they can tell a legislator that someone has “changed” when they have simply changed a self-defining label. They may remain attracted to persons of the same sex but the legislator now believes that they have gone from homosexual to heterosexual in their orientation and attraction.
If you disagree with my points, please feel free. However I’m not going to be welcoming of the type of response that clips and argues minutia or demands proof of things long proven.
Oh, and RaiderNation
While I understand Randi’s opinion about whether the desire to reorient originates internally or externally to a gay person (ie out of a personal desire or out of societal and/or religious pressure), I don’t think we can be that conclusive.
I think some people try to reorient out of external pressure but I don’t know that all ex-gays fall under that category.
typo.. should be “their inattention TO risk and harm.”
We have not heard from Zach as to whether he hated or loved his time a Love In Action.
From Zach’s blog: “My experience at LIA. Obviously I hated having to go there. Absolutely hated it. I have my own ideas about my parents motives, but I think they as individuals had separate motives…”
Yes…as a matter of fact we have heard from Zach since he got out. On his blog many times, and if you’re in his MySpace friends list, as I am, via bulletins at least a dozen times or more. The text I just quoted is still up there on his blog, and in any case a lot of us have kept copies of his previous blogs, which make it abundantly clear that he didn’t go in voluntarily…
…which was my point. You say these ex-gay outfits “minister to those that approach them and ask for help”. The brutal fact is that we know that isn’t true, that kids are thrown into these programs against their will, and LIA is more then happy to accept them into the program against their will. D.J. Butler is on record as saying that the staff saw him arrive at the LIA compound in handcuffs.
Yeah…I’ve read the QAC site (and in fact I’ve actually been to Memphis and met some of them during the LIA protests last summer). I assume you’ve also read the post that’s still up there, where they mention that a judge found D.J.’s parents unfit to be his guardians “…for various reasons, purportedly including both emotional and physical abuse.” Given that all during Zach’s confinement in the LIA “program” the first concern of the folks at QAC was his well being, even if that meant not feeding the media more info about him and his situation, and given the dicey family situation that Butler seems to be in, it doesn’t strike me as particularly suspicious that they suddenly shut up. In fact it makes me a hell of a lot more concerned for that kid. And from the chatter I’m hearing, I think your kind has more to be afraid of Butler’s story, when it does eventually come out, then we do.
But regardless, your insistance that LIA ministers to those who ask for help is deceptive on its face. Zach talked openly on his blog about feeling suicidal before he was shut into LIA. Butler was delivered to their doorstep in handcuffs. And even if you disregard both these kids, you’re still left with John Smid himself, telling the Memphis press that his program “operates on the will of the parents”. Translation: we take gay teens in against their will.
And I’m frankly puzzled as to why you would even bother…uhm…challenging me here. Don’t tell me you think for a moment that a gay kid is entitled to be proud of themselves, just as they are.
You think these kids are either lying, or that I’m incorrect about their feelings about LIA? Fine. Leave all that aside. Tell me you think it’s wrong for these ex-gay operations to take in anyone against their will, regardless of their age, regardless of what their parents want. Go ahead. Otherwise, you’re just blowing smoke over something you don’t give a good goddamn about anyway.
RaiderNation,
To clarify Tennessee going after LIA:
“The [state] went in and visited and found that they were providing room, board and personal care for mentally ill people,” said Rachel Lassiter, deputy press secretary for Tennessee Gov. Phil Bredesen (D). “The clients were determined to be mentally ill because some of them had been treated by psychiatrists and were on medication.”
My source for this is here.
I can’t say whether or not they prescribed restricted medications; they did, however, give out restricted medications without the permits stating they had the training and capability to store and dose these medications.
Further, about them putting Adults and Children in the same confession groups, I think it’s pretty safe to say that even if this fellow weren’t a professed child molester this is still unsettling. In these confessions people are coerced into talking about their fantasies and experiences. I think it’s safe to say that many adult fantasies and experiences go far beyound what many parents would be comfortable having their kids hear. For additional information of what goes on in these confessions, there are previous articles pertaining to this on this site.
Now, for a more personal point: I stated my opinion clearly previously. I don’t pretend to know another person’s motivations for being gay or exgay, but I am for their right to make that decision without external coercion, but with access to accurate information.
Statements that gays live to be an average of 45 years old, for instance, is what’s falled in the GPL community as FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) perpetrated by a group who has to gain by disseminating inaccurate information. Other forms of FUD perpetrated by these organizations can be found in previous articles on this site.
At this time, I don’t feel I have enough knowledge or experience to address any other statements than these, other people here are far more qualified to cover other points.
RaiderNation,
Everyone here is providing you first hand life experience.
You should respect that. It never ceases to amaze me, that an individual can give empirical evidence and a straight person will baldly deny that person’s knowledge.
I am a straight black woman, and many times I’ve had white folks deny that I know anything about racism, or that I was just ‘too sensitive’ or took the bigotry wrong.
THIS coming from people WHO COULDN’T POSSIBLY EVER know what racism has been like for me MY WHOLE LIFE of nearly 48 years!
I see that same arrogance in straight people. Only THEY know “The Truth”.
Only straight people’s motives towards gay people is noble and sound.
Only straight people must be believed and attention paid to THEIR opinions about gay people.
I tell you RaiderNation- I am also astounded at how badly LIA or any other supporter of conversion will deny what legitimate medical and psychiatric bodies have known for over thirty years about homosexuality.
That homosexuality IS normal, and that homosexual people function normally and are competent, equal to heterosexual people.
So I’ll ask you this:
Would you trust a doctor or psychiatrist who couldn’t recognize when someone ISN’T in emotional crisis?
But proceeds to ‘treat’ them anyway?
Would you trust a doctor that ONLY used techniques last utilized in 1973?
Would you trust non scientists, but religious groups that used fear and threat to achieve their goal? Especially on a young mind?
Would you want a family physician to tell your healthy teen: you’re going to die at age 42 BECAUSE you belong to a group? Not because of risky behavior that effects EVERYONE who engages in it?
Black youth are an at risk group because the legacy of Jim Crow and racism put them square in the crosshairs of higher social difficulty and pathologies.
But would you expect a doctor to say you’re going to die young because you’re black, so don’t bother to marry, don’t bother to apply for college, don’t bother to try and hope for anything better?
RaiderNation, there is much that is virtually interchangable with other groups because of what the legacy that prejudice and bigotry and segregation has wrought.
LIA has no reason to exist.
People who suffer from depression and addiction, or other risk factors can receive care without demand to give up their IDENTITY.
Identity isn’t a risky behavior.
And a supposed support group or doctor who doesn’t know that important difference isn’t fit to operate anywhere.
It would be a lot easier for me to take RaiderNation’s POV more seriously if I had ever heard from or about _any_ ‘ex-gay’ person who,
upon investigation, did not believe that there was anything intrinsically wrong with being gay or lesbian, but simply wanted to live life differently.
For better or worse, the image in my mind (and the minds of most gay men/lesbians who are generally at peace with their own sexuality is that people who want to be ‘ex-gay’ all share one common denominator. That is the belief that God, however He/She/It is defined, does not want them to be gay. Absent this belief (which is, to a great extent, culturally conditioned), there is no motivation for ex-gaying oneself.
If RaiderNation can provide an example of anyone who has successfully ex-gayed without such motivation, I’d be most interested.
(Parenthetically, I rememeber reading an interview with a religiously motivated ex-gay man, who was asked whether he would change his mind if God appeared to him and told him that being gay was all right. He wouldn’t. Hmmm.)
Robert, as I recall that particular fellow you parenthetically mention never did give a reason why he would not change his mind if god appeared to him and told him it was okay to be gay. I bet he’s just so invested in his religious position he’s not willing to consider any change in it and doesn’t want to acknowledge any scenario in which he would do things differently.
Given the general social rejection of same sex attracted people at some point there’s probably someone who’ll claim to be exgay and non-religious but the fact that no one’s volunteered a single example in all this time since I raised the point in this thread shows none are readily available and non-religious “exgays” are much rarer than even religious “exgays”. Its readily apparent religion is primarily responsible for “exgays” and anti-gay social oppression.