An excerpt from Dan Savage’s New York Times op-ed February 10, 2006 titled “Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Ex-Gay Cowboys.”
Straight audiences are watching and loving “Brokeback Mountain” — that’s troubling to evangelical Christians who have invested a decade and millions of dollars promoting the notion that gay men can be converted to heterosexuality, or become “ex-gay.” It is, they insist, an ex-gay movement, although I’ve never met a gay man who was moved to join it.
This “movement” demands more from gay men than simply playing straight. Once a man can really pass as ex-gay — once he’s got some Dockers, an expired gym membership and a bad haircut — he’s supposed to become, in effect, an ex-gay missionary, reaching out to the hostile gay tribes in such inhospitable places as Chelsea and West Hollywood.
What should really trouble evangelicals, however, is this: even if every gay man became ex-gay tomorrow, there still wouldn’t be an ex-lesbian tomboy out there for every ex-gay cowboy. Instead, millions of straight women would wake up one morning to discover that they had married a Jack or an Ennis. Restaurant hostesses and receptionists at hair salons would be especially vulnerable.
Sometimes I wonder if evangelicals really believe that gay men can go straight. If they don’t think Chad Allen can play straight convincingly for 108 minutes, do they honestly imagine that gay men who aren’t actors can play straight for a lifetime? And if anyone reading this believes that gay men can actually become ex-gay men, I have just one question for you: Would you want your daughter to marry one?
Evangelical Christians seem sincere in their desire to help build healthy, lasting marriages. Well, if that’s their goal, encouraging gay men to enter into straight marriages is a peculiar strategy.
Thanks for the link Rick!
yw, Dan.
This was my favorite part of the op/ed:
“Evangelical Christians seem sincere in their desire to help build healthy, lasting marriages. Well, if that’s their goal, encouraging gay men to enter into straight marriages is a peculiar strategy. Every straight marriage that includes a gay husband is one Web-browser-history check away from an ugly divorce.
If anything, supporters of traditional marriage should want gay men out of the heterosexual marriage market entirely. And the best way to do that is to see that we’re safely married off — to each other, not to your daughters. Let gay actors like Chad Allen only play it straight in the movies.”
I was surprised Dan Savage said he’d never met a gay man ‘moved’ to join the ex-gay movement. I do love his writing, though. 🙂
AMEN
I actually saw a quote from this op-ed on from a “more conservative” blog which does not allow for comments in response, and then right below in my favorites list, came across it here.
My comment was, “Ask my ex-father-in-law. I’m sure he has an opinion on the matter.”
Dan Savage and Andrew Sullivan are my two favorite gay writers today. Dan Savage for President and Andrew SUllivan for Vice President in 2008.
I think that DS and AS are the moral conciousness of this country.
They certainly have the intellect and ability to speak on terms liberal for DS, conservative for AS without their differences turning into irrational swill.
The media needs them and the politicians need gadflies like them.
I aspire to work as a straight writer who supports gay concerns.
And I’ve learned what really perplexes the anti gay is a straight person who doesn’t and won’t walk the typical path THEY’VE taken.
They don’t know why straight people like me don’t speak by rote.
My mind is free of the chains that bind theirs.
I’m not afraid.
I’m not a snob either. Typically it looks like the anti gay…or especially the EX GAY are utter snobs.
If they don’t hate us because we’re gay and gay friendly.
They don’t like us because we have no fear.
Especially of ourselves, them…or God.
Now THAT’S freedom!
AMEN. Joining the chorus. Great article.
Aw, Rick beat me to it! But it is great, and Don, what a fantastic comeback! Hope it makes some of them think.
Andrew Sullivan was born in England. There’s no way he can become president.
Both are interesting and Sullivan particularly is quirkly and independent thinking. His books are good.
But let’s not expect too much of any one gay writer.
That’s a really great question:
“Would you want your daughter to marry one?”
I guarntEE you my parents would have answered with a healthy and hearty HELL NO! But they wouldn’t have been betraying their beliefs since I’m pretty sure they doubt that change is possible either.
But…it IS a good question for those who do believe in change. The answer is at the core of why I’m still married to my husband. I do believe in change of this sort. And…since I do…it follows that I back up my belief with action. The answer to that question determines whether or not a person really BELIEVES. I think we all say we believe all sorts of things….but, in my opinion, if you can’t back it up with action….you don’t really believe it.
grace
This is off topic, but Puddy, you have no idea how much you have set my mind at ease with that statement.
grace,
I respect your thoughtful contributions here. Please don’t take this as a confrontation, but a sincere question:
I know that when Exodus and some other say “change”, what they are talking about is a behavioral change. In other words, a political rejection of indentifying as gay, cessation of any same-sex sexual activity, and a determination to not linger in thoughts or associations that could be tempting. They call it “leaving the homosexual lifestyle”.
When we at XGW say “change”, we mean what most folks mean when they hear the phrase – an internal change of affections and desire FROM being attracted to the same sex TO being attracted to the opposite sex.
Most of the prominant ex-gays that have written testimony or documented statement through interviews admit that they are still attracted to the same sex but simply adopted a different label and different behavior patterns. They are what would at one time have been called “non-practicing homosexuals”.
You have said that you believe in change, and you evidence this belief through staying with your husband. And I have respect for you and your beliefs and your commitment to your husband.
But, so that I can understand you better, can you please clarify what you mean by “I do believe in change of this sort.”
Do you believe that your husband can love you and live up to his commitments to you though internally attracted to the same sex? Or, alternately, do you believe that your husband will at some point cease to find men attractive?
BTW, I hope things are working out well for your son after his change in schools. I did pray for you.
Grace, if I may ask a question as well, since you seem like a rather kind person from the few posts I’ve read of yours.
Before you became exgay, do you believe you were gay in error, or were you actually gay?
I ask this becouse I believe there are several ways to be gay, I am gay, I don’t believe I can change. But there are also people who are gay but can change, my opinion is that this particular group is incredibly small. Given the same token, there’s a rising trend of teenager claiming to be bi becouse it’s chic.
Ragarth,
I’m not the gay/ex-gay person…it’s my husband….so I can’t answer that. But, not to open an even greater can of worms than maybe I already have…it seems to me that there may be different “levels” of being gay. Please, no one blast me here…I have no research to prove anything…nothing but anectdotal sorts of experiences. But maybe that’s the sort of thing you’re talking about here?? not sure.
Timothy,
Initially, I chose to stay with my husband because I believed in change…and my actions/committment to him reflected my belief that he could change and be physically attracted to me. (he wasn’t in the beginning of our marriage…a huge issue which eventually led to his “outing”) It was not immediate…but that change has indeed occurred. He is now physically attracted to me and we enjoy a wonderful sexual relationship that was not there in the beginning of the marriage. His sexualization of men has decreased and his sexualization of me has increased.
I believe that he will always and SHOULD always find men attractive. I do not believe that he will continue to sexualize those relationships.
Now…to get down to the root of what you may be asking….which could go something like this…
Would you be more uncomfortable with your husband going to a male or female strip show?
I’d say male. He has no history of struggling with inappropriately sexualizing women….but he does have a history of inappropriately sexualizing men. I’d prefer he not go to either sort of place and I don’t worry that he’d compromise his values/committment to me in that way. But I think I may be getting at what you are asking when I answer this question.
Honestly, I believe a remnant of “struggle” no matter what we struggle with, is good for us. It keeps us humbled at the feet of the God who redeemed us by His grace.
grace
And Timothy..I do so much appreciate your prayers for my son! This does seem to be proving itself to be a necessary and GOOD time for him to get his bearings and be better equipped to do well in the future. But I won’t mind at all if you’d keep praying for him/us! 🙂
Grace, you are correct, I do believe there are different levels of being gay. I believe that ones attraction is developed by varying levels of environment and makeup.
I use the term makeup instead of genetics becouse there is still a fair amount of debate over whether that makeup is genetics, or hormones in the womb.
I tried for a while to not ‘be gay’ and I failed miserably, however I also know people who find it rather easy to switch between the sexes.
In the interest of fairness and accuracy, I think it is important to point out that most of what we are discussing in the last few posts is anecdotal and one-off personal experience. I’m bringing this up, not to detract from the personal experiences shared but to remind us all that basing any serious policy, personal or public, on this kind of information is not a good idea. We all have personal experiences by which we may guide our own lives, some of us might even classify them as testimonies, and these are on both sides of the issue. I, for instance, could never have married a woman under any pretense so I use that experience to suggest that something different is going on in my life than that of Grace’s husband. She said he wasn’t attracted to her in the beginning, but I would submit that even being able to fake a courtship and marriage to a woman is far beyond my powers of theater and self deception. In short, no way Hosea.
But since Grace is a decent sort, gentle and respectful of others, it’s a pleasure to chat and “compare personal notes” to some extent. But if you are new to XGW or if you run across this thread in the future, perhaps from a link with a different context, please know that we do usually provide and even require that others provide some sort of documentation behind the claims we make, especially when those claims have a blanket affect on others.
David
I have no doubt that some are ‘more gay’ than others (Kinsey scale, etc.) and that some gay men are more able to function heterosexually than others. My wife knew of my struggle before we married, and in fact we had an amazingly great sex life throughout our 13 year marriage. In retrospect, I think it was the need for genuine, ongoing intimacy with another man that led to the end of the marriage and my coming out. The sex at home was good and my wife and I cared deeply about one another, but my need for an emotional/sexual relationship with someone who ‘fit’ me as a gay man ultimately won out over years of effort to preserve the marriage.
On the other hand, I’ve known some men who have persevered indefinitely, and I have respect and admiration for them.
David,
Thanks for the clarification! 🙂
And thanks to all of you for extending such grace toward me.
The only sort of blanket statement I’d ever be willing to make would be that Jesus is Lord. That’s it. Call me a fundamentalist fanatic… 😉
grace
oops – just realized that the first part of my comment above was lost when I tried to do some sort of cut-and-paste maneuver 🙂
I had started by thanking David for the reminder that all of our stories are different. AND I had stated to Grace how much I admire her commitment to her husband as well as to an ‘ex-gay’ posture devoid of the common political baggage. She is a real class act.
Dr. Warren Throckmorton Responds to the commentary quetion of of Dan Savage [“…if anyone reading this believes that gay men can actually become ex-gay men, I have just one question for you: Would you want your daughter to marry one?”
]:Brokeback Syndrome: More Than One Way Off the Mountain
Mr. Throckmorton restates that question but never directly answers it. I think I can safely assume he doesn’t say he would want his daughters to marry exgays because he doesn’t.
grace,
Thank you for your forthright answer. I think you are well deserving of your name, in both meanings of the word. You stake claim to the grace of God that surpasses our ability to understand it, and you also carry yourself in conversation with grace and dignity.
To the extent that you have expectation of “change” in your husband, I certainly don’t disagree. It seems that your husband has changed his perspective, has changed in his ability to feel attraction to you, and has committed himself to his decisions. And I applaud him. And you.
I especially applaud that you do not have some expectation that his sexual orientation move from homosexual to heterosexual. I think it is your understanding and compassion that allows first his love, then his affection, and then his attraction to grow.
I only caution that you be careful in the use of the word “change” to be certain that those who hear you understand you. So often we think English is a common language between those who use it. But, like all language, words have different meanings within different cultures.
For example, we know that getting “knocked up” in England is quite different than getting “knocked up” in America. Or that “bitch” has many different meanings within differing ethnic, social, or orientation groups.
So too does the fundamentalist Christian community have words that have vastly different meanings outside the community. One such word is “change”. Christians take the word to be more of a mystical internal shifting of focus (“he is changed, a new creature”) while outside of the Christian community it tends to mean that something was demonstrably one thing and now is another (“the document is changed, on pages 3, 4 and 7”).
So this leads to confusion. Unfortunately, this is often intentional on the part of the political ex-gay groups. They know that they are confusing and yet they continue, with the goal of deceiving. And that is sinful.
I don’t believe that you are deliberately deceitful, grace. You seem to be honest and forthright. And, to be fair, your husband’s change has had a demonstrable component so your use of “change” – though not of orientation – is somewhat a combination of both.
You are a very welcome part of the discussion. Too often it can be easy to forget that there are those who do make a decision to live a certain way and go through with it – and that is honorable. And it’s important for us to consider too that for some people a gradual shifting to the point where they find one person sufficiently attractive is both possible and enough. It’s nice to have you around to remind us.
Timothy,
Thanks for helping me understand this and I’ll remember it for future conversations. I do use the word change in the spiritual sense that you described. For the purpose of these kinds of exchanges I focus on my husband’s development of sexual attractions toward the opposite sex(me) and his diminishment of sexual attractions to the same sex. Quite frankly, while that’s been a critical “change” for us in our marriage there are many other ways my husband has “changed” that have been just as invaluable to the relationship as the sexual aspects. And all this “change” certainly hasn’t been limited to him. I’ve grown immensely, beyond what I ever imagined I’d be capable. And yet I remain weak and frail in so many ways. It really is a very mysterious process (referring to your comment) as I think about it.
I really do strive to be completely honest concerning my beliefs and experiences. I see no reason to present my/our story any other way…particularly since I attribute every bit of it to the grace of a God who doesn’t need help from me to prove His sovereignty and superiority. I would be disgracing His work by telling any other story than the one He’s given me.
Thanks, as always, for your kind words and welcoming spirit. 🙂
grace
Grace said:
I’ve grown immensely, beyond what I ever imagined I’d be capable. And yet I remain weak and frail in so many ways. It really is a very mysterious process (referring to your comment) as I think about it.
I can’t think of a better, more honest description of the Christian walk than this. What a humble contrast to the bombastic, haughty, pseudo-Christian garbage we have seen from some. I’m sure God is smiling on you Grace, you are very sweet.
David
Grace, my dear….it is with heartfelt appreciation that we have you here.
I admire you very much for working your way through this situation with your husband.
This is the area where what you do and how you handle it as a married couple, to outsiders is deeply personal.
This can’t be a political situation, but strictly one to be handled individual to individual.
When you mentioned though, ‘degrees of homosexuality’, that’s where I would need a qualifier such as social network and religious community.
I think that anti homosexual conditioning that tends to begins with young people in religious homes, influences the degree and feeling of safety someone would be honest to pursue their natural orientation in.
Heterosexuals seem to want to be generally kept from knowing who is gay until it’s too late, such as in a marriage like yours and the presence of children that complicates those bonds.
Some people are just better at keeping their vows and working through complications that confront them, which could be anything.
It’s just that a marriage between a gay person and straight person is a PREVENTABLE situation.
And anti gay factions would prefer not to prevent these marriages, but ENCOURAGE them and set a whole other plate of struggle before the gay person and their opposite sex spouses and children as well.
This ‘struggle’ that ex gay or anti gay supporters often speak of, is actually manufactured and doesn’t have to exist.
As for ‘degree of homosexuality’, that seems to depend heavily on degree of coercion, emotional despondence, displacement and threat as well.
It is really nice to have you here, sharing your experience with us.
And how is your son doing?
Are things better now?
Regan,
Yes…my son is doing much better, thanks for asking. He’s learning to save the “fun stuff” for the weekends and stay focused on school/work during the week. Let’s just pray it “takes” when he’s thrown out of the nest yet again next fall….or at the very least he’s learned by then how to balance the two. 😉
grace
“I really do strive to be completely honest concerning my beliefs and experiences. I see no reason to present my/our story any other way…particularly since I attribute every bit of it to the grace of a God who doesn’t need help from me to prove His sovereignty and superiority. I would be disgracing His work by telling any other story than the one He’s given me.”
How I wish I could sit down all the Christian preachers and church spokesmen and ex-gay ministers and religious lobbyists and anyone else claiming to follow Christ and make them memorize and live by this paragraph of grace’s.
Timothy said:
How I wish I could sit down all the Christian preachers and church spokesmen and ex-gay ministers and religious lobbyists and anyone else claiming to follow Christ and make them memorize and live by this paragraph of grace’s.
AMEN!
David