Talk about anything.
About television: I really dislike Santino — what greater vice is there than arrogance? Nick’s designs are gorgeous — so where’s his spine?
About the headline: Watch and hear Mahna Mahna in a QuickTime video stream.
O
Well here’s something funny.
Good as you posted a story about Stephen Bennett worrying about an actor in a kids TV show.
https://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2006/01/bennetts_warn_o.html
Yeah, Santino is a complete ass. I want Chloe to win.
No idea who Santino is, or what you’re talking about. (No cable TV.) But open thread (which is a good idea–maybe having one weekly?) so…
If I come in contact with people who are striving to be ex-gay and are in the early phases, do you think it’s more important for me to show respect, listen, and share my story–or warn them to get the hell out and accept themselves ASAP? (This is kinda like the question evangelicals have with non-Christians…but in another way.)
Any takers? Just looking for opinions.
ck,
Let me preface by saying that I’ve not gone through ex-gay ministries so take my advice with hesitation. But…
I’ve seen on this site that some ministries actually can be in some ways beneficial, though I’ve not seen them be effective. Sometimes people are able to work out issues unrelated to their orientation. So I would not advise anyone who really wants to, not to try it.
Also, it can be useful once they figure out that they are not going to “change” for them to have a friend that they can talk to.
So I recommend that you tell them “This is your decision; just try to find out all you can before you start. Be aware that few ministries actually claim to change internal atractions, that the success rates are very very low, and that some ministries are more political in nature than they are about helping you. There are other alternatives. But if you decide to do this, I will be your friend and will support your decision. If you decide otherwise, or start and get disillusioned, I will help you find other alternatives, either religious or secular, that can address the concerns you have at this time.”
I’d echo Tim’s suggestion.
Besides, warning them to get out and accept themselves ASAP might be counterproductive.
I have no doubt that some people aer able to build a life as ex-gay — a few maybe even a fullfilled and satisfied life. Others, as have noted on this board, experienced positives that were not related directly to their efforts at changing their sexuality. It depends on the program.
I think your first impuse is best. Listen, share, empathize, support. All of that. And most importantly, be there as an example of someone who is not what some of these ministries say you are (I’m assuming you’re gay).
Can’t argue with any of this.
Trust is so very important. One really has to trust their counselors, their peers…all of that.
In times of great vulnerability, one’s own instincts can be obscured by pain.
Sometimes a really, really well known wonderful friend can be important to take along, as an observer. As someone who can perhaps see something you might miss.
Good and legit therapists…or counselors encourage this.
The one’s that don’t. And in the case of some of these ministries, discourage the participation of your friends, or complete isolation…might do more harm than good.
Shop around.
Good luck.
Thanks, guys. I was mostly curious, because I had someone contact me from out of the blue about a dialogue. My impulse is normally to listen and be someone to trust–but I thought this would be a good question for the group who normally posts here.
And yes, I worked through quite a lot in my counseling sessions, even if I finally have accepted myself as gay.
Your response to someone who is entering reparative therapy, I think, should be based partially on their motivations. If they are entering for religious reasons (as I did), they are likely not to listen to your stories about how it doesn’t work, and to listen even less to what they view as “rationalizations of sin” in reference to the Bible. I did, at least.
I will say with certainty that the time I spent in reparative therapy was useful to me in one aspect that I have no heard mentioned before: I know that it does not work. The firm knowledge that I cannot change my orientation is an important anchor from which I can weight my religious decisions and ideas on the issue of homosexuality; had I not *tried* reparative therapy, I would not know this. For this reason, I would say someone entering for religious reasons should probably continue to go through with it. I guess that sounds harsh, but there is so much uncertainty involved for many gay Christians that it helps to have as much experiential “evidence” as is possible.
My advice for you, then, would be to remain in contact with this person. Support them, encourage them, and try to be to cushion the blow when and if the inevitable sets in.
Posted by: ck at January 12, 2006 07:17 PM
ck, my WAG (wild ass guess) is that anyone in the early phases of striving to be “exgay” needs to have a go at it or they may spend a lot of years fretting over whether or not its something they should do. A reasonable caveat would be to set a limit in advance as to how long they will attempt the process before they reconsider accepting and making the most of living with same sex attractions. It doesn’t strike me as a beneficial idea to stuggle a lifetime to go against the desires that naturally occur to a person most easily.
CK, I think it’s prob. telling my grandmother how to suck eggs, but here goes:I’d go with the “Hmmm, yes. I see. Right.” type of conversation from the start. And only then ask them to explore — for a future conversation — what the real change rates etc are. They’re in a frame of mind at that moment and perhaps need to work through their own anti-gay feelings before they can contemplate otherwise. (as Randi mentions above).At the same time we make sure they get a good exposure to our lives, families etc. It doesn’t take long before they have a big gap between the falsehoods spread by exgay groups and the plainly obvious fact of our life together.The fact they’re contemplating exgay indicates where there coming from. The fact they’re speaking to you indicates where they’re going.Oh, did I ever mention I use cognitive dissonance a lot?… like you hadn’t already noticed :)(P.S. no, I’m not comparing you to my grandmother. One, she’s dead…)
Ack, a “there/they’re” typo. Gawd I hate that.
Regarding Project Runway:
Nick is right to pick his battles with Santino. Or not pick any at all. He wanted to choose Chloe and Emmett beat him to it. So he was stuck with Santino. I think Nick just likes to avoid conflict.
This show continue to do a service for gay men. Some of the gay men on here are so unique and so kind, like Emmett and Daniel Vosovic.
And Tim Gunn is as always hilarious. I loved when he said Chloe and Emmett’s window display was “more fabulous than I can say”. Such a truly gay moment.
Your response to someone who is entering reparative therapy, I think, should be based partially on their motivations. If they are entering for religious reasons (as I did), they are likely not to listen to your stories about how it doesn’t work, and to listen even less to what they view as “rationalizations of sin” in reference to the Bible. I did, at least.
I’ll second this and everything else that Cyrano said in his post. Conservative Christians are trained to block out anything that doesn’t fit with what they’ve been told. Your best chance of getting through to them is to show them through your own example that the negative stereotypes they’ve heard about repeatedly don’t apply to everyone, or even to the majority.
And there are positives to be gotten out of the better ex-gay programs. It’s just a shame that that’s often the only way for people who grew up in conservative churches to obtain those benefits.
Posted by: Eugene at January 13, 2006 10:27 AM
Eugene, if you agree someone entering “reparative therapy” for religious reasons won’t listen to “rationalizations of sin” then why would showing that person examples of non-stereotypical gays change their mind?
Randi, if I can pretend to be Eugene…or actually, I can’t (he’s far too cool for me to attempt to impersonate, and I know the guy in real life). Regardless, I’ll attempt an answer. There’s a big difference between trying to change someone’s mind by trying to engage them on an intellectual level and showing them something that is going to make them question things they’ve been told.
I think I started to question all that I’d believed (because it had been told to me from day one) when I started to see people that didn’t fit into what I’d come to believe (such as happy gays in long term relationships or gays that had reconciled their faith and their sexuality and were living with authenticity – Justin Lee at gaychristian.net was one of those people for me). It took something tangible that I could see – that was being lived out in front of me – for me to question the long-held beliefs. It’s a totally different sort of thing. Anyway, I’ve no idea what Eugene would answer (probably something much more succinct and profound) but that’s my take on it (from personal experience).
Just a thought…
This is probably the only pro-gay site on the planet that would give the advice we’ve given.
Posted by: Timothy Kincaid at January 13, 2006 01:50 PM
That’s why I asked the question here… 🙂
There is a custom of greeting that’s still widely practiced by some of the Polynesian folks I know.
I love it though.
It’s mostly between men, but it’s precious and different and I wish there were more differences of greetings to witness that’s indigenous from other folks.
Handshakes and all that, is kinda boring.
There is something very warm and endearing about pressing foreheads and noses.
Little kids do it and it seems to make them break out in giggles every time.
Sweet…
Regan DuCasse at January 16, 2006 02:38 PM
Rubbing noses was also an Egyptian form of kissing and can be seen in tomb art. There is currently a controvery as to whether two men burried together and shown rubbing noses were a gay couple.
Some historians think so and others say “no, no, no, not gay!! Twin Brothers!!”, or even cojoined twins. To which I say, “then why are they painted different colors?”. I don’t know that much about Egyptian art, but it seems to me that if they were brothers the artists probably would’t have one the color of the background plaster and the other a rich chocolate brown.
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1965612,00.html
The things that make you go hmmm….
I went to the King Tut exhibit with my sister and there was speculation about the appearance of many of the subjects in paintings and sculptures.
One thing I can’t get over…is the astoundingly sensual line of the lips on virtually every piece.
I don’t think I’ll be able to post much for a while.
This lupus is really eating me alive and my hands get swollen very easily and I can’t use my keyboard very much.
The medications make me dopey. I’m supposed to be on so much stuff, I took a medication vacation. It’s kind of a quandry. I have work to do, but can’t do it, unless I take a bunch of pills that make me worthless.
I had an interview with the state office to decide on permanent disability. And I hated every second of it.
Putting my life in front of the caseworker. She was very sweet.
But it’s taken me two years to finally relent and not work anymore.
It’s breaking my heart thinking of not working at Universal anymore…
I tried to resign LAST year and they wouldn’t let me.
Keep the emails coming. It gets me through the day having such friendly company.
But I’m restricted on using the computer for long periods.
My best friend’s nephew will be doing the typing to help me continue writing.
I’ll be back. Count on that!
Love ya!
Randi,
I am so sorry to hear about this. You’re in my thoughts and prayers.
Possibly the strangest review of Brokeback I’ve ever seen.
https://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=9283
Especially his bizarre insistence that poor people should be ugly. Of course, when he starts off trying to brandish non-homophobe credentials, you know it’s going to be good.
This article was still from a very narrow perspective.
Not long after Proulx’s short story was completed, the brutal murder of WY native Matt Shepard happened. And all the gay ranchers, rodeo riders, blue collar workers, teachers, husbands and fathers and wives and mothers and small business operators who were GAY took GREAT notice and cried out in righteous rage.
Matt’s murder revealed a simmering and serious reality.
That a sweet faced, boy sized, harmless, ALL AMERICAN young man could encounter such treatment in the beautiful plains of the heartland.
However remote and rural the place, THIS was a risk any and every gay person knew shadowed their lives.
Yale Kramer ain’t got a clue, but thinks he knows to analyze gay life through a film camera lens.