The Augusta Free Press in Virginia profiles Greater Hope exgay activist Jeff Watros, who says he doesn’t understand why he’s perceived as a loud, pushy street-corner solicitor.
But the Free Press quickly explains it to him: He has chosen to affiliate with Exodus, the antigay political advocacy network.
All in all, the story nicely portrays the human journey of Watros while contrasting the self-perceived innocence of local exgay advocates with their self-defeating choice of political sponsorships. The views of Watros and Exodus lobbyist Randy Thomas are balanced with those of gay author Wayne Besen and Staunton, Va.-area equality activist Linda Czyzyk.
I will buy Thomas’ pro-choice statement when Exodus starts supporting gay rights. If he truly believed it was about choice all the way, he would not fight against protections for gay people.
I’ve always thought that if Exodus got out of the high-profile political stage, it would likely have more luck “recruiting” gays to its ministry.
But as it is now, they basically position themselves as the enemy. Why would I want to go get help from a group that publicly speaks in negative stereotypes about gays, heavily lobbies against any type of gay rights, etc.?
Brady,
You have summed up my thoughts on most the these ex-gay groups.
I’m glad somebody brought this up.
I have come to this forum completely honest about myself and my motives for being here.
I approached ex gays, their organizations and local groups and NARTH itself, which is in my neighborhood.
I wanted to be an observer, a person of open mind who wanted to study method, demographic that sought out these ministries and their outreach proposals.
Each and every time, I was met with caginess. Hardsell of books, tapes, CDs or videos-most that had little to do with GENERAL method, but sometimes was the personal media creation.
Most of all, as stated here: it’s the socio/political mission of ex gays. There is a serious denial of the coercion and threat that entraps gay youth from the beginning.
Ex gays deny their unfair advantage in this regard and their exploitation of this fear and insecurity.
This is a serious breach of trust in the ‘concern’ or ‘compassionate’ motive for this ministry.
The denial of equal access and protection for homosexuals only, and no other groups who have struggles with other issues, belies their interests as solely faith based.
They seek to employ the government to back up what cannot be gained strictly on social outreach.
This isn’t about faith in their own methods and ability, but seeking to control a SINGLE group exclusively to the point of obssession.
Their denials are essentially lying about their own mission.
Lying about their standards, efficacy and results.
And, they confuse the issue of choice and it’s connection to other pathologies, evident in gay and straight people.
This also establishes and promotes the EXPECTATION of change. A situation that’s been extremely hard to fight already. And all over again, damages trust between gay people and their families.
They are determined to keep the floor of national debate as if this issue isn’t already settled and their time is up.
The discussion is over about homosexuality being a disorder of any kind.
And has been for DECADES.
Rather than accept sound and legitimate findings on that and the fact that homosexuality doesn’t resemble any disorders, addictions or illness-they want to continue to believe and promote long abandoned or narrow, unsubstatiated or failed studies.
And their agenda relies extremely heavily on stereotype and gender confined behaviors and conformity without consideration of individual traits and personality.
And they have criticized what are fair, legitimate and legal current results.
This makes no sense.
Particularly when other clinical disorders and emotional crisis are not used to exclude their sufferers from equal treatment under the law.
Nor are they subject to conditional religious disciplines.
So, the efforts of the ex gay, to me, look like a determination to do damage to the lives of gay young people, damage their expectations of themselves and those around them. To intensify guilt and shame around unrealistic and unfair goals, so that perceived failure threatens to bring on dangerous depression.
So, in effect, the ex gay are inconsistent and ultimately look as if they are destablizing the relationships that gay people would have with their community.
And then offers instead, acceptance on THEIR terms.
Saying it’s love and concern, when really it’s control for profit and political gain.
This is truly a despicable thing.
Mean in spirit and impractical in application.
As an outsider who has studied this for years now. I find the whole ex gay business redundant and irrational.
Redundant because there are other therapies that address substance abuse, relationship and sexual dissatisfaction and family counseling-that is sexual orientation neutral.
In any case, ex gays are not friendly to people who don’t need them or are secure.
They are like sharks seeking blood in the water.
They are obssessed with finding insecurities and people in crisis.
And supporting programs that keep gay people only, perpetually in that state.
You can correct me if I’m wrong.
It isn’t even just protections for gay people – doesn’t Exodus also support sodomy laws? They want to persecute gays because.
I always hear these groups talk about how they know so many people who are ex-gay, or who have overcome homosexuality. Yet we hear from so FEW of them. Interesting.
My only fear is that these groups have so much money and power, and it’s easy to fool the public.
Interestingly enough, Exodus is having a leadership conference in Orlando this week.
100 or so “leaders” from various Exodus affiliates are getting together to discuss strategy.
I wonder how much of that strategy involves reaching out to gay people verses slapping them around legally.
Oh to be a fly on the wall at that shindig.
In any case, ex gays are not friendly to people who don’t need them or are secure.
They are like sharks seeking blood in the water.
They are obssessed with finding insecurities and people in crisis.
And supporting programs that keep gay people only, perpetually in that state.
___________________
The sum of what you said is that they prey on those who are weak and vunerable. That is right or just.
oops, I meant that it is never right or just.
Well, as you know, I’m not a woman of few words.
But if I had to sum up what ex gays do in a few words or sentence, it would be this:
They are giving pats on the back, because they are looking for a place to stab you in it.
Joe and Regan, I think you’re making bigoted statements about exgays. There are differences among exgay individuals, group participants, counselors, and political activists.
I wonder too about how many of these ex gays or ex gay therapy and ministry supporters have books out in vanity presses and not mainstream publishers.
It looks like most of them are published through a larger group like FOTF or FRC, if that.
Wayne Besen just happens to be an opposing view that was written by a gay man.
I read J. Satinover’s book. Chad Thompson (who parroted Satinover and Nicolosi)
If a book that’s written on the latest findings regarding gay parenting or gay function, come from doctors with a SECULAR viewpoint and with a longer, better and broader study group.
Those who are anti gay, tend to cite, if they are recent studies-those studies tended to have a very small and narrow, and less in person study.
I have worked really hard at this.
I’ve read at least eight books, from both sides.
And religious bias really strains credibility on the reason to study homosexuality at all.
The bias and verdict are already in before they conduct their studies.
Which in so many ways, defeats the purpose of having one to begin with.
No one has really mentioned this, but the antigay hate is so strong in right, fundamentalist circles that End of Sphere is being denounced as gay propoganda because Chad Allen is gay in real life. 700 Club today has an article that says that Chad Allen is promoting the gay agenda simply by being in the film. The fact that Chad is simply performing a job is not something these groups see. Many are protesting or boycotting the film because of Allen’s role. Even our presence disturbs people. And to think End of Sphere could be a great tool for evangelism, but it is seen as part of the gay agenda now.
Aaron- End of the Spear
Aaron said:
Many are protesting or boycotting the film because of Allen’s role.
Aaron, do you have a reference for this? I hadn’t heard that anyone was boycotting it. I actually saw a glowing recommendation for it on the 700 Club last night from Pat himself no less. I’m not partial to watching that program but it comes on after “Whose Line Is It Anyway” and I admit that sometimes I lurk for a while 🙂 Anyway, where did you see that?
David
Mike,
If that’s what it sounds like, it’s because I’m not really being given much opportunity to think otherwise.
As you yourself have witnessed, it’s EXTREMELY hard to engage an ex gay person in a serious conversation about this.
We run into a wall of obfuscation and finger pointing, instead of any real exchange that’s meaningful.
Then the discussion devolves into worse and nothing is accomplished.
You might not like what I’ve said, but what I’ve said is the truth.
I was serious about learning something, and got nothing but nothing for my efforts, if not a lot of snide lip or silence.
I’m not stupid and I’m naturally analytical.
But it’s hard, very hard to continue to take an ex gay person seriously when at face value, they treat gay people and those who support them like bad children who have no right or reason to question them at all.
If you’re offended Mike, I’m sorry.
And I appreciate the folks here and I try to be respectful.
But I have to wonder if the bigotry hasn’t been on the other foot Mike.
Bigotry towards me because I’m not a gay person they can sit in judgment of in the way they are used to doing.
But they managed to find a way, which had nothing to do with our subject here, to sit in judgement anyway.
David, you’ll find the start of the anti Chad campaign at :
http://www.sharperiron.org
Jason Janz is leading the charge.
I wrote this Janz guy in Chad’s defense,
If all y’all want a copy of the email, please contact me via email.
Chad is on the road promoting the movie.
Well, it’s a personal situation why I would send the email.
The good news, Steven Saint (who Chad plays in the movie) believes that Chad was heaven sent for the role and is the best thing to happen to the story.
Hopefully, that ought to pipe down the religious critics.
But what Aaron says is true, unfortunately.
Good grief, your are right. That really seems quite silly. How many actors in Hollywood would they find acceptable then? Is is just gay actors that are not allowed to play a missionary? He is an actor, it’s his job to portray someone he isn’t. What difference does it make what de does in his own life – as if there was something wrong with how he lives his life. I’ve never read anything but positive things about the man.
I never cease to be amazed. I guess Pat will have a different tune tonight.
David
Mike says: Joe and Regan, I think you’re making bigoted statements about exgays. There are differences among exgay individuals, group participants, counselors, and political activists.
Joe replies:
I agree, I don’t mean them to sound that way. I apologize if that is how is sounds. It was not my intention at all. Perhaps a bad choice of words. I am mostly refering to ex-gay ministries. Not the people in them. I do think that the majority of ex-gay ministry groups do prey on people who are vuneralble about their sexuality. That is not a reflection of ex-gays, it is a relfection of those who run these programs, advertise them on billboards and magazines, radio programs…etc….
Well you have to think that ex-gay programs aren’t really for gay people themselves.
They’re for upset parents who want answers.
My opinion is that conservative parents of gay kids is the crowd they play to.
“How many actors in Hollywood would they find acceptable then?”
I think it’s pretty much limited to Kirk Cameron, star of the “Left Behind” movies.
j/k
Of course it really doesn’t matter how evil you are as a person to the wingnuts, as long as you aren’t gay. I mean they almost worship Mel Gibson and it’s hard to find any personal redeaming qualities that guy has… but he’s a Christian and he’s not gay.
Chad Allen, who is greatly influenced by his faith in God, is an evil activist anti-Christain monster… because he’s gay.
ps. I don’t get “Left Behind”. Why would one cheek be any more important than the other?
You forgot about Willie Aames (sp?).
Bibleman himself!
I went to the Sharper Iron website.
Oh my good ness. :O They are serious folks
on serious Earth over there, brothers and
sisters. Their sincerity cannot be questioned –
anyone who believes that this society has achieved any semblance of neutrality on the topic of homosexuality would be well-advised to read what they have to say.
Someone let Andrew Sullivan know – he seems to think that Provincetown is the norm nowadays.
Sorry, End of the Spear. I keep saying End of Sphere because it is a scientific principle. Anyhow, Agape News has been running stories since last week about protests such as a letter being signed by ministers as protest. 700 Club has this article today. It is not that the article condemns the movie, but it has some very strange statements about Allen’s involvement: https://www.cbn.com/entertainment/sports/carpenter-endofthespear.asp Here is a strange question it poses, for example: “will the film serve as platform for Allen to promote the gay agenda?”
I don’t think Agape News has a long archive, and I can’t find last weeks stories, but they are ridiculous. When I perform my job, I think it does not matter at all that I am gay. It does not affect my teaching at all. Allen is playing a part. His homosexuality is moot.
Mike, now that I’ve looked over my comment. I want to say that it does look like something generalized that I said.
Those few ex gays, that have posted here, those in leadership or who are mentioned as header to your own threads, as well as several that I have met in my neighborhood that I tried to reach out to, and DL Foster-are who I am referring to.
I tried to go to the source, Living Waters, where I live and no go.
One of our own regulars who went through their program, was kind enough to send me a copy of their manual.
Yikes.
What an education I am having.
So far though Mike, I don’t have a good impression.
The only one who was decent and intelligent was Chad Thompson.
But…with all his good intentions, he seems clueless as to what he and the rest of us are up against.
And he presents the same tic of denial I find frustrating.
And you’re right, there are all kinds of folks who are ex gay.
But I’m having a hard time telling them apart, so far, whoever I have spoken to, or who are the subjects of our posts, are all pretty much saying the same thing.
And I honestly hate the real motives behind ex gay anything.
The import of it…is huge.
A woman that I liked and admired greatly passed away Tues.
Betty Berzon, one of the pioneers of gay and lesbian rights and support.
her obit is in the LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com
She was charming and so sharply intelligent.
Little bitty thing too.
When it comes to the emotional and mental trials that gays and lesbians suffer-she was one of many whose analysis of gay and lesbian social isolation helped me to see the same connections also in the famous ‘doll test’ conducted by social psychologists Kennth Bancroft Clark and his wife Mamie P. Clark.
If you google the names of the Clarks, you’ll be able to review their findings.
Which were instrumental in the Brown vs. Brd. of Ed. decision.
Dr. Berzon and I discussed that and many other things.
Most of all, the ex gay movement seeks to nullify the work of Dr. Berzon and her like.
Treat homosexual normalcy as a theory and unsubstantiated instead of a legitimate result.
Freedom, self determination…and the ability for gay and lesbian youngsters to express their orientation honestly without fear of reprisal or reprimand or isolation was her life’s work.
Without her participation in the advent of that expression and freedom-many people would yet to have found themselves and their voice.
The ex gay movement supports returning to the dark age of the ‘choice’ to be isolated and deprogrammed or suffer dire social, political and religious consequences.
As far as they seem to be concerned, the verdict is in.
And the judgement is cruel.
To fight to know who we all are TOGETHER, gay AND straight is the work of braver souls.
It’s required courage to seek MORE knowledge, understanding and fairness and respect, not less.
Society fights to NOT KNOW gay people, and we never will if the switch to know better keeps getting turned off.
Betty Berzon will carry the legacy of bringing great light.
We were blessed to know her.
Regan, that was a beautiful tribute.
Here is the full link to Betty Berzon’s obituary.
Hey Gang,
A NY Times magazine article today has a detailed account of a white missionary family’s work in Kurungu, Kenya.
They are living among a nomadic tribe of goat and cattle herders and working to bring ‘The Truth’ to this rural group.
The name of the article is “The Call”.
And this right after I saw “End of the Spear” yesterday.
Working to help long tribal feuds leave blood revenge behind for diplomacy, fine.
Living with rural tribes for the sake of cultural exchange, fine.
To encourage elevating the station of women, fine.
To bring medical care and encourage sanitary practices, fine.
One man’s simpler, less materialistic existence isn’t poverty.
Let alone the poverty of the spirit that missionaries like to think is evident in primitive, indigenous peoples.
That’s when I become suspicious of the motives of missionaries.
Or especially the mission of ex gay ministry.
It’s not to make the target of that ministry feel better, but to make the MINISTERS and MISSIONARIES feel better about THEMSELVES.
This is exactly why I think ex gay groups inflate their numbers and talk often ad infinitum about how many homosexuals they have freed from struggle and that nasty, horrible and dangerous lifestyle they were living.
The self congratulation seems endless.
And more importantly, if what the article says is true: with this many Christians having persuaded certain peoples to abandon their original stories and understanding of their own existence, how will we ever know who they really were and cared most about?
If you see the picture of the missionary alongside the young Kenyan tribesman he’s looking to convert:
he’s a sour faced, fair skinned man in a bright blue cotton shirt and khakis.
The young tribesman is reed slim and well muscled, dark ebony and wearing a beaded headstrap that traverses his forehead and chin.
He’s in a light colored sarong wrapped cloth, with a beaded belt.
Sometimes you know the specific tribe by the clothing they wear.
How would we know who is who and their family if everyone wore khaki pants?
BTW…
Micanyani, the Ecuadoran tribesman who was the subject of “End of the Spear”, when he first arrived in America, thought the lot of us were fat and lazy.
We don’t walk anywhere, we don’t run, we have food everywhere and don’t have to chase after it.
Ya know…sometimes the mirror talks back.
This is simply my observation.