Jamie Dean of WORLD Magazine wrote an article to examine sexuality serve as an unquestioning soapbox for Alan Chambers. I sent WORLD an editorial reply:
Ms. Dean composed a cute piece on Exodus but much like Alan Chambers and his organization gave us no reason to believe a word said. No ex-gay organization has ever provided proof change is possible. They can publish weepy testimonials of change but you take a group of people who desperately seek change and OF COURSE they’re going to self-report positive things to people like Robert L. Spitzer who simply took them at their word regarding change.
As for the number who have changed, even Chambers fabricates that number. In 2003 he was quoted saying ex-gays numbered in the thousands. In 2004 he was quoted as saying “tens of thousands,” and in your publication he’s upped the number to “hundreds of thousands.” [see footnote]
In the words of Exodus, perhaps WORLD should indeed “question homosexuality” a bit more.
Daniel S. Gonzales
In case you aren’t familiar with this “question homosexuality” phrase it’s Exodus’ motto. I intend on hijacking it by continuing to point out how Exodus and their media allies never substantiate or “question” the steady stream of absurdities emanating from Exodus. To “question” means to reason and think. Exodus policy rarely involves either and by using their own motto against them I intend to highlight this hypocrisy.
“Homosexuality as a life-long struggle is something that Cynthia knows well. (WORLD agreed to quote her without using a last name so as to protect her privacy and her job.)”
You know, if gays and lesbians were protected from discrimination in the workplace, maybe Cynthia didn’t *have* to fear for her job. How would that be?
From the article:
“Exodus now fields more than 400,000 inquiries each year at its headquarters in Orlando. A staff member directs each inquirer to the member ministry closest to his home, where he can receive counseling and support. “The No. 1 call we get is from males struggling with homosexuality,” says Mr. Chambers. “The No. 2 call is from parents who have a child struggling with it.”
There are only so many ways to break down the callers; probably gay men, lesbians, parents, pastors, activists, generic straight people. If the largest number of callers are gay men, a conservative estimate would be 25% of the 400,000 callers are gay men.
So Alan Chambers is claiming AT LEAST 100,000 gay men call every year for Exodus’ information.
For populations I’m using https://www.census.gov/statab/www/pop.html
As of 2003 there are 107 million men above the age of 18 living in the US. I don’t know the gay male population, but in the last national election 4% self-identified as gay or lesbian in exit polls. The gay male population, by all accounts, is significantly larger than the lesbian population. But a reasonable estimate for our purposes here might be 5 million gay men live in the US (a little less than 5% of the male adult population).
Thus, Chambers is claiming that every year AT LEAST 2% of the gay male population calls for Exodus’ help. Over a short time period (say five years) that would grow to 10%, or one in ten.
That’s an amazing claim.
I’m sure most of the people reading this have at least 100 gay friends that they know well enough to be aware of whether they called Exodus in the past 5 years.
I don’t know of any in my closest 100 gay friends. In fact, of the many hundreds (possibly thousands) of my gay acquaintances, I only know of two in the past decade that have contacted an ex-gay group. I live in Los Angeles and have been out for a long time so my likelihood of knowing gay men who are “struggling” is much lower than if I were closeted in Baton Rouge. Yet still this claim seems extreme.
Alan, I know you come on here sometimes. Tell us, are you claiming that over a five year period at least 10% of all gay men will contact your organization? Or, as you probably estimate the total gay population smaller than I, is it a larger percentage that call you?
Timothy, you’re a contributor, make a post out of this.
OK… I’ll play with it some, support the numbers a little better, and post it in the next few days.
BTW, great graphics work
But Cynthia says she “cried out to God” and has remained faithful to her husband through their 29 years of marriage. She says she still has to work to be physically attracted to her husband, but “by God’s strength I’m so happy that I gave up the lifestyle, and I would never go back.”
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What lifestyle is there to go back to if she claims to have remained faithful to her husband?
You know what seems the fishiest about that 400,000 figure?OK. Orlando. Say they operate the full 52 weeks a year. 5 days a week. Open 12 hours a day.What sort of considered response does someone get when Exodus dedicates a massive 28 seconds to their concerns???Given the claimed size of their operation, this workloading is a steaming pile of horse poo. Unless, of course, they are including the enquires sent to Focus on the Family… or, they are all just a bunch of call centre people.Any wonder they don’t have time to tally their success v. failure rate.
We may be seeing another “Chamber’s Exploding Numbers” phenomena.(I’m referring to an old spreadsheet, but could dig the ref out eventually. Forgive me.)After the 1998 advertising blitz Exodus said they had an extraordinary number of calls in the 6 weeks following. (Following them correcting the contact number I assume.) The figures indicated they were receiving about 200 calls a week from genuine inquiries.They did get very, very many more from people ringing to give them a piece of their mind.
This is kind of silly. Question homosexuality? To paraphrase Nike’s “Just do it” commercial line, if you don’t want to have homosex, “just don’t do it.” One seriously must question the mentality of those who concern themselves with what other people want to do in bed. They are the ones who are seriously in need of therapy.
BTW, I seriously do believe that there is an underlying dynamic going on here, and most underlying dynamics appear to revolve around money. Or revenge. Or both.
“Question homosexuality?’
I don’t disagree with asking questions. But the ex gay movement isn’t doing that. It’s want is dictating the terms of sexuality.
Period.
The problem is once someone got the bright idea to question homosexuals willing to talk about it-the response was to deny, or disbelieve that gay people knew what they were talking about.
According to Exodus and all the rest, they already know all there is to know about homosexuality.
There are no questions to ask, they have all the answers.
They only ask to find out where all the gay people are.
As James Baldwin once said:
“Identity is questioned only then to menace.”
Can I get a witness?
I contacted Living Waters.
Big woo.
Contact is nothing. I was trying to do research and I didn’t disclose that I needed their services, but I did ask about them. I downloaded the application and discussed it with their representative.
I had a choice between their Reseda, San Fernando Valley chapter, or the one in West Hollywood.
I had this contact over several months.
Contact is very different from physical approach and commitment to the program.
I tried to ask about drop outs, success, how long did some of their adherents stay on. Anyone in the long term?
When could I expect change to occur and for how long?
Or why was it such a long time commitment?
I don’t think there is an ex gay ministry that’s free.
Anyhoo, I went as far as I could without actually signing up. I couldn’t afford it.
They don’t really have any serious breakdowns of who is in their program.
Not by gender, ethnicity, orientation or age.
Let alone income and religious affiliation at the start.
They keep things pretty blurry. This must be deliberate in the CYA issue if any authorities came to call.
But their ads, interviews and conferences tell a completely different story than any results they can prove.
It’s those statistical results that would be required in a court, to justify their practices.
Advertising yourself as successful, while the results are impossible to qualify is fraud.
And this is a huge issue.
It’s hinging in part on civil rights and the abuses that gay people endure in society and the law.
Regan, I’m sorry to have been a little obtuse.
Question homosexuality?
What is the question?
People exist who want to engage in homosex. So, what is the question?
Homosexuality exists, so what is the question?
If there are same-sex attracted people who don’t want to engage in homosex, they should not. So, what is the question?
I sincerely do not understand this “question homosexuality” crap except for the fact that it apparently is useful for some factions in fundraising from the rubes.
Regan, I’ve been through the Living Waters program. If you want to know any info about it from someone who’s been there, feel free to ask me. I am looking around my house, too, because I know I kept all the materials. There was some very kooky stuff in there…
Re: paying for ex-gay ministries, it’s the only one I know that charges (besides individual therapists and live-in programs). Most ex-gay programs are free support-group type things that are mostly drop-in. They do usually collect donations. Most are run on donations-only. Of course, they do get a lot of support from straight Christians…and those they “help” of course. And even Living Waters, to be somewhat fair is only $300 for a 30 week course, which is not too horrible. Well, it is if you consider that you’re getting brainwashed and paying for it…but I digress.
Raj,
I was kinda, sorta being facetious about the questions.
Questioning homosexuality, at least to try and understand it is fine.
Questioning homosexuals is fine too, if you want to know what gay people’s lives are like and what gay people think
The ex gay movement doesn’t question homosexuality or homosexuals.
The movement LECTURES to gay people and asks no questions. Just asserts they have all the answers and what gay people know and feel and think is unimportant to them, except to say that they question homosexuality, to reject it.
BTW, I’ve been trying to contact DL Foster, who listed a whole host of wrongheaded things about me on his blog.
He’s either blocked or cut all my comments from his site.
He’s never tried to contact me or allowed me to contact him directly, but he’s derisively commented on me.
He doesn’t know me and doesn’t want to, and gleans whatever he wants from my comments on XGW.
What do you make of someone like that?
Annika, I’d appreciate anything you have handy.
From a research perspective, I was stonewalled.
I knew the Living Waters fee was something like about ten dollars a session. And you’re right, it’s not too terrible, except that I don’t want to cough up any financial support for something I object to.
For the sake of their process, though, I did need to know what exactly their methods are.
This is what I mean by blurry.
There are so many ways and means a gay person can access the clergy on their homosexuality.
And if you live in certain, limited communities, that might be the only place to go.
If you’re very young, it’s your parents who will most likely seek out the pastor.
If he’s hostile and ignorant, this is the danger to someone very vulnerable.
The ranks snap closed and what can a kid do who is subject to all these adults around him?
And at the same time, there is no reason for any intervention at all.
But clergy are not clinically qualified to do anything that deals with this subject.
It’s very delicate.
If any other kid is going through drug experimentation or drug addiction or has taken to theft, then the moral implications are clear.
The whole community is affected and any kid gay or not can have these issues.
A gay kid, with no other situation but that he’s gay is different.
He can be a great kid. Talented, well liked and gets along with his siblings.
His orientation doesn’t have to be of community concern, but pastors believe it is and will say often that being gay is dangerous to everyone and the kid too.
This is myth of course, but clergy believe it fervently.
A visit to DL Foster’s blog speaks to just how obssessed the man is with spreading bull***t.
Opinion suffices for facts in his world.
Unfortunately, he is one of legions.
It’s very hard to discuss such an important issue in it’s proper context with those from avowed faith perspectives.
That’s faith, not reality based, perspectives.
Stereotype abounds and of course, the ex gay movement is rife with not only gay stereotypes, but gender stereotyping as well.
I want to know more about the Living Waters program from you Annika. I need to know what effects such a program might have on a child, as well as a vulnerable adult.
And thank you.
PLease send an email.
This website is pathetic in its assertions, many of which are nothing more than name-calling. Exodus could not have grown to 400,000 woldwide chapters if it were not HELPING people who want the help. To treat a teenager whose parents sent him to a program in the hope of helping him overcome his GID problem is THEIR families business only. NO one, especially you people who have a hateful axe to grind against people taking control of their own lives should butt out. As I recall, during the early years of the campaign to encourage “self-outing” as gay, anyone “accepting” him/herself as gay objected strenuously to the idea that anyone else could even suggest the possibility they could change. Exodus helped to change that idea, as have many other ministries seeking to help homosexually incined people who are unhappy to be that way.Note From XGW: This comment contains numerous egregious factual errors and fails to substantiate them. Under my comment policy that simple lack of substantiation is sufficient grounds for deletion but I’m letting this comment remain up in the interest of the discussion it has spawned. -Dan
So says the person not even brave enough to put a name to their objections….
I watched a documentary from 2003 about a man, age 36 named Jonny Kennedy.
He suffered from a skin condition called Dystrophic Epidermolysis Bullosa. Aka Eb or DEB/RA.
This isn’t the first person I’ve ever seen with it on film
But it’s a kind of genetic leprosy. The collagen of the body is deficient and the skin sloughs off, leaving it’s sufferers with huge raw places, scabs and lesions.
Many of them have no hands or feet or much body hair.
The subject of the film was active in fund raising and speaking out for a cure for the disease.
Both of Jonny’s parents carried the gene, but did not have the disorder and neither did his only sibling, an older brother.
I’ve also seen a film about dwarfism and what gene isolation has been done so that parents can avoid having children with it.
I also saw a Nazi propaganda film on euthanasia.
The Nazis had slick production values and the film was used in German high schools and universities to convince the public that euthanizing the handicapped and diseased would be a mercy to the sufferers, and since they could never change or make societal contributions, it was fitting that they be killed mercifully and peacefully.
But that’s not what happened is it?
The reason I brought this up, is I’ve been reading the Exodus blog, those of Alan Chambers and Stephen Bennett and Chad Thompson and Warren Throckmorton.
I’ve already studied a lot of the newsletters and information on gay people that FOTF, CWA and FRC puts out about gay people.
It’s mix of what Nazis said about Jews, gypsies and the retarded.
On the one hand, they don’t think that being gay is normal and morally neutral.
They are firm in their belief that change is possible, but say their interest is purely compassionate and non threatening.
I’ve tried to break it to them, but the initial tracts that Nazis put out used the same language that Exodus, et al uses.
You can trace any or all of these mission statements in the ex gay movement, similar to that of segregationists and Nazis and Communists.
‘Wouldn’t they all be better off if they don’t suffer?’
‘Isn’t all of society better off if they aren’t allowed to freely associate and do what us ‘normal’ or ‘genuine’ people do?’
‘We know best what is best for them and everyone.’
‘They are dangerous and have an agenda to take power from us.’
With the ex gay movement though, they can’t make up their minds.
To them gays are EVERYTHING negative with nothing good to offer if held to the same standards as heteros.
So, the standards keep changing or are impossible.
But with the aforementioned documentaries, I remember one of the little people mentioning that if there were a cure, then no one will know us or that we were here.
Little people are not necessarily ‘suffering’ from anything. Size is an adjustment that can be made.
But one thing is very clear, the public doesn’t know gay people very well and the opportunity is being avoided.
I don’t like the level being so low that even being honest about one’s orientation invokes hostile offense.
That the mere mention of a significant other is forcing someone to talk about sex.
What the ex gay movement does is take ignorant heterosexuals off the hook.
It minimizes the responsibility to learn about gay people and let honesty inform the facts and truth about what being gay means.
I can understand isolating the gene for EB and helping a young person avoid the pain of their skin falling off and being disfigured.
But this is an ailment, a genetic disease that causes physical pain, but has no bearing on intelligence and the opportunity to contribute something to our understanding of being different.
It forces us to acknowlege a person as a person and to look at our capacity for patience and empathy.
The ex gay movement seems certain of their facts and advertizes that they have all the answers and the cure for homosexuality.
They see it as an undesirable disease and mental deficiency, or an amoral attribute: all of which can be used to dehumanize ONLY gay people.
I’m always wary of people who don’t know an affliction from a unique and neutral personal characteristic.
We have historical context, we have empirical facts.
The ex gay movement refuses to discuss these or acknowlege their limits.
This is how I know they are the ones who are dangerous and exploitive of fear.
The pain of EB comes from EB. Jonny’s family rallied around him and gave him all the creature comforts one could hope for.
What pain a gay person might know comes from other people who won’t respect gay people.
One doesn’t have to be taught to hate their EB if they are so afflicted.
You have to be taught to hate homosexuality.
Other people have to be taught it too to comply with controlling gay people.
Just as people were taught to hate Jews enough to stand by as they were marched down public streets to slavery and death in camps.
Teaching what difference is and what it means and our responsibility to one another doesn’t come easy, does it?
I don’t know anything about being gay.
But I have been taught to hate the occasional inconvenience of being black or a woman a time or two in my life.
That doesn’t mean I should have ever given myself over to racism or sexism and said the structure that fostered it was right.
Especially since this movement doesn’t believe gay people are capable of making a contribution, unless they change.
And no gay person should be forced to give themselves over to a socio/political structure bent on rendering gay people diasporic, isolated and finally disappeared. However much it’s disguised as benevolent missionary work.
So it’s not genetics or mental fitness or anything that can save us from hurting one another.
Recognizing who works to diminish a fellow human and speaking against them with two faces is the warning of true agendas.
Sorry this is such a long post, and I’ve admired the references that have been given here.
I haven’t always been able to give references.
I’m still learning to do this advocacy right.
I don’t think it’s too much to demand motive and have an honest dialogue with ex gay supporters.
The thing is, they are so cowardly and evasive with people like us.
It’s no wonder why.
It’s no exaggeration to compare this ministry with the first stirrings of the Nazi movement.
It really isn’t. I”m comparing it with the beginning, not the end of that movement.
Letting the ex gay agenda metastisize with the religious right will be very, very dangerous, not just inconvenient for gay people.
The name of the film I saw was out of Britian and called “The Boy Whose Skin Fell Off.” on TLC network.
I can hardly wait to see “Fish Can’t Fly”.
There’s a site regarding the EB disorder and contributions that can be made.
http://www.debra.org
Hope it’s okay to post that.
It’s just that my post is about what we all know universally that betrays others or hurts us.
And what we have to be taught to betray another human being because we don’t know them or are empathetic and patient enough to want to understand.
Umm,Anonymous…
You are hopelessly confused.
So I’ll help you a little by listing the errors in your post (consider it a favor):
1. sexual orientation is not the same as Gender Identity Disorder.
2. Exodus does not claim 400,000 worldwide chapters (or, as you put it, woldwide chapters). It simple says that is the number of calls they receive. Most don’t join and even fewer are “helped”. And, incidentally, I don’t find that number at all credible. I’m sure you do because you take it on faith, not logic.
3. we don’t mind people taking control of their lives. More power to them. We do object when those people are damaged or lied to. We object when the leaders of the ex-gay group argue before legislative bodies that we should not have the same standing in law and government as straight people. So, on those issues we most certainly will not butt out and let Exodus trample our rights. It’s called self defense.
4. Exodus did indeed “change the idea” in the public’s conscience to suggest that gay people could miraculously become straight. Unfortunately, the haven’t been able to demonstrate much more than the “idea”. The success rate is abysmal – which makes me think it’s not a very good “idea” at all.
5. the phrase “be that way” says much about your way of thinking. And it doesn’t say nice things.
Anonymous, I’m sure you are appreciative for my corrections. You’re welcome. I’m always glad to help.
“1. sexual orientation is not the same as Gender Identity Disorder.”
Sure it is! C’mon guys, vaginas for everyone!!!
There are two places I go to at least once a year that are very important in reminding me that it’s my responsibility to understand my world and how I want to relate to my fellow human beings.
One place is the Simon Weisenthal Center…aka the Museum of Tolerance.
The other is the Jet Propulsion Lab in La Canada/Pasadena area of Los Angeles.
One teaches the mistakes of the past and how those mistakes germinate.
The other is a testament and temple to human genius and progress.
When it comes to the ex gay issue. It speaks to a tenacious hold on an ideology that history has already told us is harmful, hateful and needless.
Aren’t we meant to look at our past to abandon destructive ideologies, not embrace them?
Isn’t it the resonsibility of those who demand to take control of other human beings lives, learn to understand what and why certain taboos have been abandoned, but are now reconcilable with modern human progress.
It’s imperative to know what a disease is, what is a matter of general ethics and what is a matter of personal philosophy being forced on those not required to know it.
I am learning to see that those who support the ex gay movement and are in leadership within it are not necessarily ethical or well informed.
I was dismissed and banned by DL Foster and it taught me something.
When it comes to bringing in historical and empirical fact and context, he is intolerant of such things. He cannot or will not discuss them and abandons any option or opportunity for someone such as me- a straight, black person to bring that authenticity of background to challenge him.
He has lied about me or not allowed me to correct his mistatements and he prefers to talk about me without my participation.
I know I leave long, expository posts here.
And I can take criticism. And I try to correct myself if need be.
However, I have to make my own conclusions about what is a discussion and what is hectoring by someone who won’t engage fully.
The ex gay movement is committed to a past that was never healthy for gay people and they feel they aren’t justified in exposing their real motives or proving their real success.
This is unacceptable.
I know a lot of history, recent and easily accessible and personnally experienced history.
I don’t have to be gay to see the same mistakes of the past being made.
I’m annoyed that ex gay supporters don’t have the stones to even talk about it.
Regan, having seen DL Foster’s blog and his silly comments here, consider it an honor that you were banned.
And if he lifts the ban, don’t post there anyway. You’re arguing with someone who’s emotionally five years old. The sense that they can draw adults into arguing with them is what people like DL feed on.
Boo, Foster is running a gig. His blog is part of his advertising.
Having someone like Regan posting on his blog is bad for his business.
Thanks guys….
I know that Foster addressed the Atlanta legislature to ban marriage for gay people.
This is a political action.
This belies supporting ex gay ministry for it’s own sake.
Or that gay people want to leave homosexuality or have left it without a strong and hard shove from the back by a prejudiced society.
As a black woman, as a straight person…I had hoped for a dialogue about politics and the historical context around integration.
People of faith are required to have a certain moral authority beyond fear and ignorance.
Faith communities are to be held responsible in participating in a progressive future, and openess and honesty so that the terms of understanding are clear.
I didn’t want to be unkind or prejudiced myself, so I gave Foster opportunity to talk to me by phone, emails…all kinds of things.
Looking back now….
He just doesn’t have brains enough to go into the depths required for a discussion about history and responsibility.
Even my work with LAPD as a forensic photographer didn’t move him to understand my qualifications on knowing what the real dangers to society are.
Representing LAPD as a black woman field tech and sketch artist, is a rare and important position to be in.
Especially considering the usual racial tensions that simmer in every inner city in the country.
I even offered up the spiritual advisors and beloved black ministers we have here in LA to call him and speak to him about ‘all God’s children’ who are gay too.
Well, this was a missed opportunity for Foster.
I wondered if he’s ex gay himself.
The thing about the words ‘escaping homosexuality’ that bother me is there is a difference between ‘escaping’ and being chased from homosexuality.
I wear the pink triagle or Rainbow on me and my car. There have been other colored triangles to represent my solidarity with a group sent to Hitler’s camps.
My husband didn’t like for me to do that for fear of being assaulted or vandalized.
I don’t care.
I’m in this situation for keeps and for however long it takes.
I’m not looking into the faces of my gay neighbors and then telling tales with two faces.
I know I’d rather die than participate in that kind of betrayal.
Foster can do that, I can’t. It’s about taking a stand with the difficult, not the easy.
Those that ‘escape’ are running away. Running away from who and what they are into what they think is a safer place.
I’m already a woman, there’s plenty I’m not that safe from.
Foster has shown that he runs.
I’m not afraid.
Of an argument, a fight…a challenge.
Foster was a challenge to me and he ran.
I was a challenge to him…and he ran.
I chose up sides…and I’m not afraid of gay people or anyone else.
Foster is not the only one who ran…
He’s one of many.
You might note that the subjects of some of these blogs in the ex gay movement will not attend venues they won’t be unanimously agreed with or have little control over.
Yeah, if talking too much (not honesty and facts) is enough to make Foster run…imagine what would happen if I was seriously PISSED OFF?
Isn’t there a Biblical admonishment about cowardice?
I won’t apologize for being passionate….and maybe taking a lot of words to get to a point.