In response to a query from Grove City professor Warren Throckmorton, pastor Rick Warren of Saddleback Church has provided this statement concerning the Uganda Anti-Homosexuality Bill and one of it’s major backers, Martin Ssempa.
Martin Ssempa does not represent me, my wife Kay, Saddleback Church, nor the Global PEACE Plan strategy. In 2007, we completely severed contact with Mr. Ssempa when we learned that his views and actions were in serious conflict with our own. Our role, and the role of the PEACE Plan, whether in Uganda or any other country, is always pastoral and never political. We vigorously oppose anything that hinders the goals of the PEACE Plan: Promoting reconciliation, Equipping ethical leaders, Assisting the poor, Caring for the sick, and Educating the next generation.
This is an important step for Warren, as he was an early supporter of Ssempa, who no doubt receives a great deal of perceived legitimacy from Christians in Uganda through that connection. Warren has concentrated on that country, deeming it a “Purpose Driven Nation,” referring to the trademark phrase of his ministry.
This is the kind of clear and concise message that must be sent to the people and leaders of Uganda, especially from the Christian groups in this country. And while we would like to see stronger language explicitly condemning the Anti-Homosexuality Bill itself, we commend Warren has his wife, Kay, for doing this, and for not muddying the message with side claims and excuses.
Join the Facebook group to speak out against the Anti-Homosexuality Bill 2009.
Ok… no Ssempa/Warren conspiracy.
What about Warrens comments in March 2008 made in Uganda concerning the Lambeth Conference of that year and the decision made by the Church of Uganda to divorce itself from the Anglican Church. There it was reported this about Rick Warren’s thoughts:
Now he might have only meant it would not be tolerated in the church, but why should anyone in Uganda then think to tolerate gay people in the civil setting. Clearly such a statement by Warren is even more damning than those by Brundidge and Schmierer – though he’s have to go a bit further to match Lively.
Frankly, I don’t think it matters though. Ugandans see any meddling in this political issue in their country to be a form of neo-colonialism.
I think there is much we don’t know about Rick Warren’s activities regarding Uganda. His recent statement is important, but I don’t think anyone is saying that it absolves him of any responsibility. At the same time, I would agree with your observation that the quote in the Monitor applies to the Church and those ordained by it (ala Gene Robinson). The quote should also be verified before going further k– the media over there is somewhat lax at times.
That said, there may be cause in the future to report more on what Warren has been up to and how accurate his account is. We certainly know that he was less than truthful concerning his lobbying for Prop 8. I just think that right now it is more important to help the approx 900,000 gays and lesbians in Uganda by calling attention to this atrocious bill. If Warren can help by doing the right thing now, that is a good thing.
Then there is this organization….
Political Research Associates Calls on Rick Warren to Denounce Proposed Antigay Law in Uganda
Go to their link to see what articles, etc. that they have linked in that piece.
I’m so amazed at the arrogance of some americans. I wonder where you get the audacity to determine what law is fit for Ugandans. For heaven sake Rick Warren, Warren Throckmorton and Martin Ssempa are not even our members of Parliament. We have a full house of parliamentarians which you cannot over rule. They will vote to the interest of Ugandans and not some americans who think we don’t know what is good for us. That is colonial mentalilty. By the way, homosexuality is illigal in Uganda.
Ugandan.
Jimmy, if the US were to reinstate the practice of enslaving Africans to do hard labor, would you then think this was acceptable? Or more contemporary, should your country again be at the mercy of another Idi Amin, would the rest of the world have no right to protest the inhumane treatment he would bring to many more Ugandans than the 900,000 gays and lesbians there now? How about South Africa, should the world have ignored Apartheid?
Also consider that some of this is our fault. The likes of Scott Lively, Caleb Brundridge and Don Schmierer, along with many others who have not made the spotlight, have contributed to this absurd line of thinking about homosexuality. We are culpable, and this makes it doubly important that we speak out against this abuse.
I do get it. Uganda has been ruled by others and you are sick of it. The pendulum has swung back and you have a gut reaction against anyone from the outside dictating your day-to-day affairs. But the world has changed. Even the US cannot operate in a vacuum, and neither can Uganda. Some issues traverse national boundaries.
We are fellow human beings. We live on the same planet. We are trying to persuade, not impose. Please consider our pleas.
Mr. Okello….
The policies of both the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches are that homosexual contact between consenting adults should not be criminalized – nor should speech concerning homosexuality be criminalized (which even the Ugandan constitution would not allow). We have no problem with the criminalizing of pedophilia – sexual predation by an adult on a child; however, call it what it is, pedophilia. An adult male raping/taking advantage of a male child is no more ‘aggravated homosexuality’ than an adult male raping/taking advantage of a female child is’ aggravated heterosexuality.’
Jimmy,
You have avoided the most important attribute of what is a ‘colonial mentality’.
That is, the attitude that anyone has a right to lord over another person. They do not.
There are basic principles behind the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights; of which Uganda is a signatory. Included are the principles that everyone has the right to participate in society and the freedom of thought, speech and association. Colonial government is a violation of those rights, and is wrong.
So too, sexual orientation has already been declared a protected category under that universal right to individual privacy and such laws have already been declared a violation of individual dignity. [Croome v. Australia, 1994]
Colonial government was a breach of human rights — that much is as obvious today as it was in 1962 (and earlier). The draconian laws against gay people in Uganda are also a breach of human rights — regardless of your personal attitudes.
I expect all governments to respect all the rights of their citizens, and that includes the government of Uganda. I also expect all people to respect the rights of all other individuals, and that includes you. It is nothing less than I expect from my own government, my fellow citizens, and myself.
The Golden Rule isn’t just for those people who own the gold: if you don’t appreciate being powerless, misunderstood and ill-treated you can also come to understand how others would wish to be treated by you.
Homosexuality is illegal in Uganda in 2009 for the same reason Uganda was a colony in 1961: a basic disrespect for the shared humanity and personal dignity of other people.
The whole concept of homosexuality being wrong was introduced by the British to Uganda in the first place. You want to strip yourself of your colonial shackles? LEGALIZE it! Don’t persecute it!
Rick and Kay know in their hearts that homosexuality is an abomination that could draw God’s wrath on mankind.
How I pray they stop the fear of man and instead fear the one who is able to destroy both the flesh and the spirit,Jesus Christ.
We are praying for you the Warren’s so that satan does not use you to lead the little ones to sin or become homosexuals.
Nkeramihigo Emmanuel … how sad that your relationship with God consists in fear and not love. 2000 years plus and Christ’s message still falls on deaf ears.
Nkeramihigo Emmanuel,
Is Ssempa still your pastor?:
And do you also read his blog?:
If that’s your salvation sales pitch, you have some work to do.
“Rick and Kay know in their hearts that homosexuality is an abomination that could draw God’s wrath on mankind.”
Oh, honey, you have so many things wrong with this statement. some people do what they do with a swastika and a bayonet. Some do it with tefillin and a prayerbook. some do it with their tribal totems and emblems, knowling that the other tribe are just hutus, or tutsis, or whatever tribes were murdering each other in your country, and don’t actually matter as much as the hatred that prompts the slaughter.
Some do it with a cross, a Union Jack, and few wheelbarrows to cart away the swag. some just do it with self serving and wholly– but not holy– imagined superiority.
Let’s just check out this wrath of God argument for a moment, shall we? Countries that let gay people live in peace and in full participation with society? Most of western europe, canada, even our own benighted US. Most of the western world, most of the western hemisphere. Peaceful, prosperous, good health care, a high standard of living, drinkable water, no starving people.
Compare this with two of my favorite, good Chrstian countries, Uganda and nigeria. Starving people, endemic corruption, no water, no health care, slaughtering each other, Idi Amin, dead children, educational system a shambles at best, Christians accusing other Christians, draconian laws, tribal and religious warfare, and on and on and on and on.
If you are going to speak of the wrath of God, maybe you should take a very close look in your Ugandan mirror. Maybe you should try not speaking for God. maybe you should understand the meanimng of megalomania on a national scale. Maybe you should read about scapegoats in your precious bible.
Maybe you should think about what Jesus had to say, instead of listening to hearts filled with hatred, fear, and ignorance.
“The policies of both the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches are that homosexual contact between consenting adults should not be criminalized”
Is it really? Perhaps this is the line taken in the West but the Anglican Church of Uganda supports this bill – minus the death penalty but is a-okay with life imprisonment – while the Catholic Church in Uganda continues its silence.
We are praying for you the Warren’s so that satan does not use you to lead the little ones to sin or become homosexuals.
I trust that the method of execution will be stoning? After all, such is what Jesus would have wanted given He treatment of adulterers.
Oh wait…
This somewhat schizoid document from the Roman Catholic Church espouses a policy of not crirminalizing homosexuality:
And yes, both churches in Uganda don’t seem to want to follow their hierarchy. It is my understanding from something I read recently that the Anglican Churches also favor decriminalization; however, the Church of Uganda (CoU) has broken with the the main body of the Anglican Church. What seems to be even more abyssmal is that the Roman Catholic Church does not seen to have the will to point out that issue to its bishops in Uganda. But that is nothing new. When political situations go against what the Church may teach, the Church has often looked the other way – officially – especially when it thinks an evil (gay sex) is being eradicated. In other words the RCC will fall in line with the government.
One fundamental aspect of medical care is to “first do no harm.” Given current attitudes towards homosexuality in Uganda, I think that the US should seriously re-evaluate the medical services and other services that we support in Uganda, in particular HIV care.
HIV care could be used to lure people to medical services in order to determine which might be homosexual. Those suspected of homosexuality could be jailed and/or executed. Uganda’s neighbor, Sudan used a similar tactic during a famine to lure Southern Ugandans to famine relief services. They packed these refugies in tight train cars, transported them through the hot desert without ventillation, then disposed of the bodies at their destination.
Rick Warren loves to tout his HIV work in Africa through ministers like Ssempa, and Uganda has reportedly moved away from the previously successful ABC policy (Abstinence, Be faithful and Condoms) to an Abstinence only policy with blessings of the Bush Administration. The Abstinence only policy has been reported to be less effective with rising HIV rates.
I would argue that it is better to provide no assistance to Ssempa or discriminatory government clinics that might use HIV care to incarcerate and kill those suspected of homosexuality than to become accomplices in these horrible crimes committed against vulnerable individuals and groups in Uganda.
am ashamed of being human being because even animals are better off than us because they know what to do. i believe and love horms as human being, but what they are doing no………….. way it degrades human being who were put in charge of the world. imagine we allow homosexuality to be human right? would there be human beings in the world . pr ssempa and the gov’t of Uganda i congratulate u 4da bill i pray that it is passed through, 4da glory of God not human beings who do not know there purpose on this world.
Diana: you are ashamed of being a human being for entirely the wrong reasons.
You should be ashamed of being a human being becuase you are ignorant, unconscious, and at the least, inhumane.
According to you, even animals are completely heterosexual, and therefore it shames you that human beings are not. Clearly, you know nothing about animals, let alone the subject of homosexuality among animals. But ignornace is OK as long as you can believe your praising God. You don’t understand the irony of one of his names: The Fount of wisdom.
You condemn a whole group of people that you do not know, who have not harmed you, and that you clearly know absolutely NOTHING about, all based upon your understanding of passages written in a book and imposed upon your people centuries ago, a book you also clearly know nothing about.
You condemn these people to prison or death cheerfully, all the while praising yourself for being so very, very righteous, and thinking the God has personally consulted you about what is going on in his mind.
All the while, ignoring one thing that IS certain: YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR COMMANDED YOU NOT TO JUDGE OTHERS.
Honey, this is why your country is in such a mess. This is why you had Auntie Idi. You wouldn’t know righteousness if it bit you on the ass.
Thank you Ben.
As per Diana:
A common misunderstanding–same-sex attraction isn’t something you do.
And btw, since God is perfect, don’t you have to be perfect yourself to know the mind of God?
I didn’t know that denying human rights such as to free speech as this bill does would be for the glory of a god that was supposed to have given man a free will.
Maybe…. what god has given let no man put asunder?
The implied assumption here is that, if homosexuality is accepted, everyone will be homosexual. Will they hell. That’s just a silly fantasy. Not only is there no evidence to support it, but the evidence contradicts it. In those western countries where homosexuality is fully accepted, heterosexual people continue to be in the vast majority, and homosexual people in the minority.
Homosexuality is part of the rich variety of God’s creation. No-one has any right to try to abolish it, nor have they any chance of succeeding if they do try. But their attempts will and do cause an enormous amount of unnecessary pain and suffering. Far from glorifying God, they’re blaspheming him. Stop it, Diana.
@Ben in Oakland: Hey, you dont have to insult our nation Uganda to make a point, okay? What do you call ‘mess’? I would disagree! Every country has its messes. The US has its trigger-happy psychos everywhere and weather disasters… so, easy! Wouldnt it be better to just give all the aggrieved 900,000 homosexuals here asylum in the USA???? Stop it already! I personally dont support the brutality of the bill, but I dont support homosexuality either. Especially when they go around recruiting in schools! That is not how ‘normal’ relationships develop. Plus, I dont like the idea of someone choosing a way of life that is so selfish in terms of procreation and then count on another to provide the babies and multiplication channels.
Carol: You have no problrem slandering gay people with the absolute myth that we recruit in the schools, and then complain that I am insulting Uganda? Show some evidence, real evidence, not the claims of people like Ssempa.
We’re selfish because we’re not reproducing– also a myth– in a world where there are 7 billion people competing for an ever shrinking share of the goodies, all fueled by irresponsible heterosexual reproduction? i guess all of the gay people i know that have adopted the cast-off children of irresponsible heterosexual reproduction are SELFISH? WTF???????
I’m against just about all immigration. we can no longer afford it. But if I could magically transport all the gay people from the fascist hell holes like Uganda, and give them good lives here, believe me, i would do it.
Let me quote form a previous post:
“Countries that let gay people live in peace and in full participation with society? Most of western europe, canada, even our own benighted US. Most of the western world, most of the western hemisphere. Peaceful, prosperous, good health care, a high standard of living, drinkable water, no starving people.
Compare this with two of my favorite, good Christian countries, Uganda and nigeria. Starving people, endemic corruption, no water, no health care, slaughtering each other, Idi Amin, dead children, educational system a shambles at best, Christians accusing other Christians, draconian laws, tribal and religious warfare, and on and on and on and on.”