In a podcast interview with Kim Jeffries, ex-lesbian Janet Boynes cites makes up some interesting statistics:
Jeffries: I understand that’s not uncommon that there has been a sexual assault or rape or some kind of abuse in the past of many women who enter into a lesbian lifestyle.
Boynes: From what I know I believe there’s 80% of women, between 80 and 85% of women that are struggling with homosexuality were either raped by someone they knew or somebody outside of that but normally there’s some type of rape or some kind of molestation in our past.
Ms. Boynes has been quite busy recently having been featured in an ad opposing hate-crimes legislation, was the Exodus newsletter testimonial of the month earlier this year and appeared in Family News in Focus.
[If any XGW readers have the back issue of the newsletter featuring Boynes please scan it and send me a copy. Exodus has a habit of saying outrageous and potentially embarrassing things in their newsletter which is why I suspect it’s not available online.]via Pam Spaulding
Sorry Daniel, our back issues are currently a long way away on loan. We did actually find all past editions of Exodus Impact (gawd, even that name is still phallic…) on-line once — we’ll try and remember where.And again, one more exgay who claims (OOHA, like her stats) that they became gay because of the bad behaviour of heterosexuals.Remind me again why we are the ones who need to change?
It’s amazing that WHILE SHE WAS SPEAKING the numbers were going up. It’s like: if we don’t stop the gays now, by the time I finish this paragraph we’ll be at 95%!!
I keep trying to find something in the Bible which advocates their rather rampant use of the lie.
This is not actually a defense of Boynes, but is it possible that 80% of those lesbians who are actually “struggling with homosexuality” (as opposed to the majority of lesbians who are *not*) have been sexually assaulted? I’m not saying that an assault *caused* their lesbianism. But there seems to be a tie in to those people who grow up in families who teach them to loathe their same-sex attraction (and therefore a core part of themselves), and those people who show up in Exodus-type programs. And young people (and most rape victims are young) who do not respect themselves are so much more vulnerable to assault than those who do respect themselves. These same people, who have been so horribly wounded in regards their sexuality, in their upbringing and by an assault, would be equally vulnerable to being drawn into programs like Exodus.
Obviously, even without the fabrications that Exodus-type groups may be guilty of, you can’t trust that the statistics that apply to the general LGBT population to apply to those who opt to go through “reparation therapy.” They self-select (or in the case of youth, are pushed) into these programs, based on self-loathing, and are therefore not representative. But those stats MIGHT actually apply to those in these programs.
In any case, having endured sexual assault can’t be the root cause of lesbianism. Otherwise about 30% of all women would be lesbian.
In my therapy, I was pressured badly to admit to some kind of sexual abuse. I was told that there had to be something there even if I did not remember it. I suspect that this is true in many cases of lesbian exgays–there is a belief on the therapists part that this must be true, so the patient eventually submits to that belief.
Posted by: Les at May 30, 2006 01:25 AM
Posted by: Aaron at May 30, 2006 03:05 AM
Les, and Aaron I’m starting to wonder if both the scenarios you describe are correct. The anti-gay “exgays” obviously have a stock of standard lies they use to portray gays in the most negative light possible but given the self-selected nature of those entering ‘reparative’ therapy I believe they may form a unique subset of same sex attracted people with similar characteristics which may be quite different from the majority of same sex attracted people. Features like a deep hatred of same sex attractions, strong religiosity and maybe as a group they have been sexually molested at a higher rate than most gays. Its a real shame that the lies are so standard that we can only guess and doubt those possibilities.
“normally there’s some type of rape or some kind of molestation in our past”
This makes me wonder what is meant by “some type of” and “some kind of”.
I suppose that most people have been in a situation where someone else did not observe appropriate boundaries. We’ve all been in an “icky” situation or been around someone “creepy”. I wonder how much of the Exodus lesbian “some kind of molestation” was more related to some perv patting a girl’s butt than to actual forced or coerced penetration. Yeah, it’s unpleasant and inappropriate, but it’s hardly rape or molestation.
I suspect “when I was 10 there was this creepy shoe salesman who tried to hug me when my mom bought me shoes” would result in “Yes!! See!! This is the source of your distrust in men!!” Or if a guy said it, it would be “Yes!! See!! You subconcously liked it and it caused you to seek out more attention from men!!”
There’s always going to be something that can be latched on to.
Is it just me or is it nonsensical that a man molesting a girl is supposed to make her dislike men, but a man molesting a boy is supposed to make him like being molested by men? How exactly is it that unwanted sexual contact with a man should have the opposite effect in boys and girls?
Randi said:
How exactly is it that unwanted sexual contact with a man should have the opposite effect in boys and girls?
What does logic have to do with it? (lol) Seriously, that’s a good question. And what is supposed to happen if a young girl is attacked by a woman? Or a young boy by a woman? The phrase “house of cards” comes to mind.
I’m not being scientific on this but my impression has always been that this molestation theory is another convenient way to blame something or someone for one’s (unwanted) sexuality. It’s not me, it was done to me. And molestation is such an awful thing to begin with that using it imparts a bit of validity to the discussion because it is so serious (i.e. it works well in a testimony or interview). These are just thoughts in motion right now.
Man, am I becoming jaded?
David Roberts
I don’t think you’re being jaded, David, just realistic.
Linking the cause of homosexuality to molestation also provides an easy way for them to say that it’s an illness, the product of abuse, that can be healed. People respond to molestation and rape of young people in an emotional way, which works well for shutting off the possibility of a rational understanding of homosexuality.
A couple of things to note here. One, I think that Boynes ought to clarify where she’s getting her data from. Secondly, however, the incidence of rape/attacks among lesbians could be higher than the general population. This doesn’t need to be causally linked to their sexuality; rather, attacks often occur because of a perceived difference from the norm.
What I’d like to see–perhaps folks here who have time (I don’t, at least not tonight) could investigate through PubMed or some other reputable source, statistics of sexual attacks upon all women, and compare that to attacks upon lesbian women.
I can add my anecdotal experience that, of the lesbians I know, a few of them have been raped. As well, of the straight women I know, quite a few of them have been raped. In fact, I’ve been surprised, shocked, to learn how many of my friends have these kinds of assaults in their past. I consider myself fortunate that I do not.
The experience–for straight or lesbian women–is probably traumatic, stressful, and causes a great deal of self-reflection and wondering whether one’s feelings are “normal.” Again, I think the application to ex-gay stories is apparent, as Hava Israel notes.
I’m not saying lesbians get raped more frequently than heterosexual women. What I’m thinking is that a certain percentage of women get raped regardless of their sexuality. And I’m assuming that this has not changed sexual orientation one iota, just that the lesbian victims of molestation are more likely to falsly decide the molestation caused the orientation and seek out “reparitive therapy”. This might account for some of the reported high levels of sexual abuse amongst clients to the “exgay” sham.
It may be that lesbians who’ve been molested are much more likely than others to seek out “reparitive therapy”.
How about this for a horrendous cure from homosexuality:
some of my young lesbian friends, on disclosing their orientation to their parents, were advised to have sex with males.
The parents thought it would be a good idea since the experience hadn’t happened yet.
The parents obviously were under the impression that regardless of the girl’s age, she’d recover her attraction to males and cured of her same sex attractions.
One girl I knew became pregnant from the encounter, because her parents failed to mention the birth control thing.
Evidently they were also under the impression that girls with lesbian attraction wouldn’t get pregnant from having sex with males.
I kid you not.
This seems to be right up there with the myths one was told about masturbation.
Anyway, there is raging, blockheaded ignorance when it comes to what straight people know about gay people.
And grantdale has a point: if so many young women were abused, presumably by males, then the problem is cause by HETEROSEXUALS.
Boy…they are determined to drive the bus right off the cliff!
And it’s got to stop…please make them STOP!
Posted by: Randi Schimnosky at May 30, 2006 06:06 PM
Randi, my comment wasn’t a response to anyone’s, just a remark in general. And yes, it is possible that those seeking out ex-gay therapy have a higher incidence of traumatic events than the statistical norm of lesbians.
However, since we don’t have a good baseline statistic for lesbians (at least I don’t think so, at this point), that’s tough to judge.
Again, I’m sure research has been done on this, somewhere–it’s just a matter of digging it up.
CK – I don’t know of any wide-area survey that covers the subject. Most surveys are done for another purpose — to try and gauge what sort fo support is needed at sexual assault clinics etc — rather than simply to find a baseline.That said… logically a few things should (but maybe not) be seen if that data was available. No particular order:Sexual abuse (or perhaps even a single assault) should make a certain proportion of the victims fearful, distrustful, even hateful of the class of people that their attacker came from.but need to be mindful of “The lesbian” and those women who are really not all that fired up about girl-on-girl stuff but who feel most confortable in a lesbian environment. We’ve all met the type :)ditto, when “I’m a lesbian” seems more reactive, more determined to convince oneself rather an expression of simple fact… well, we all know THAT type too :)also mindful of the research that suggests that at least some young women who are sexually abused go in the complete opposite direction — to the point of becoming the town bike etc.what exactly is the measure of “sexual abuse” or “sexual assault”. We’ve all had (hopefully!) unwelcomed approaches by people, but “No, thank-you.” has worked every time; even with the most persistent octopus. Alas, many of the surveys returning the highest proportions ask about “unwelcomed sexual advances” rather than sexual assault.Just as with some/many/most exgays I almost be willing to bet (but I don’t) that those still labouring under the effect of sexual trauma and a cracked self-esteeme will also be those who would latch onto a label and a social circle without this saying anything at all about their underlying sexual attractions.And Randi — we asked Nicolosi that very question. Never heard back.
I have always thought the idea of sexual assault creating lesbians as unrealistic and simplistic. It assumes that the ONLY reason why she dislikes relationship with men is due to the assault and assumes that if she gets over the distrust of men that she will enjoy relationships with them.
It would be like expecting a railfan who developed a fear of flying because she barely survived a plane crash would give up train travel because she no longer fears flying.
She could still not enjoy flying because of airline food (or lack there of), cramp conditions, ear popping, and dull view out the window. While she enjoys the space, slow pace, food, watching the world whiz by on the train.
This whole idea that a woman becomes lesbian because of fear or distrust of men forgets one very important thing: lesbians have sex with other women.
I could easily understand how molestation, rape, abuse, etc. could make a woman want to avoid men. But that’s not lesbian, it’s asexual. And I’ve met women like that. They dislike men based on their horrible experiences and are much happier with a big dog and far too many cats.
But it’s a big step from “I ain’t doing men” to, well… I’ll just be inspecific about the rest.
“from what I believe I know”…this is an expert fact?
Seems to me that even certain ex gays have backtracked and said ‘this is what she understands’ to be true.
Well, there’s a whole universe between one can ‘believe’ to be true, instead of what IS true.
And where did she get her original information from?
The same people who taught her to be ex gay?
Well, there ya go.
The thing I most object to here, having nothing to do with statistics, is the question posed, particularly “…of many women who enter into a lesbian lifestyle.”
What is the lesbian lifestyle? Every lesbian I know is living pretty similarly to the straight people I know. Many of them have children, they go to work or to school, hang out with friends, go to bookstores, do their shopping, play sports or games and whatever it is they do with their lives. I don’t get this “lifestyle” business. My life isn’t a ‘lifestyle’ any more than my straight neighbors lives are a ‘lifestyle’.
Of the women I know who have been sexually abused, most of them acted out (almost all with men) and very few of them identify as lesbian. I know one who identifies as lesbian but acted out her abuse with men and one who identifies as bisexual, also acting out her abuse with men. One woman did her acting out with heroin till she cleaned up, and identifies as straight. One was frigid for all the time I knew her and acted out with just about everyone, but not sexually. She had a great collection of vintage furniture and clothes, too, but no cats and she identified as straight.
The stats I’ve found show that 1 in 6 American women have been the victim of attempted rape or rape.
This is stated here:
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html
If that’s true, then there are, no doubt, many women who identify as lesbian who have been victimized in this way and I agree that these are likely to be people who would be likely to act out in self destructive ways and also be most likely to be struggling with their sexual identity, though I also think that women who come from a religious background or a background that is very homophobic would also be likely to struggle with it. It really depends on how strongly developed their sense of self esteem is and that can be just as damaged by homophobia as it can by sexual abuse.
I’m concerned about Aaron’s comment – that he was pressured to find some abuse in his background. If this is what is happening, then there is a really good possibility that some people are being convinced of abuse that didn’t really occur and have developed false memories. I don’t mean to imply that all of them are false or discount anyones real trauma, but it’s definately possible that the numbers are also inflated by this, as well.