At the suggestion of XGW commenter cowboy, here is an open forum to discuss any loose ends from 2007, or hopes and dreams for 2008. We can start with cowboy’s:
I’m not going to make some transitory quest to fit back into my college-days jeans or resolve to get my taxes done early this year. I want happiness. Okay…I’ll settle for some contentment on some level with being single. But celibacy is not a long-term option for me.
Would a lodge-styled mansion in Wilson, Wyoming and a partner like the Jake Gyllenhaal’s character in Brokeback Mountain be asking for too much happiness?
In any case, to everyone here at XGW: may you find happiness in this new year!
And let me just add my personal thanks to everyone who has read and/or commented here. It has been a year of changes, hopefully improvements, but more is in store. Our request for next year is more interaction, information from you about things we should be covering. You will see better ways to share those kinds of tips shortly. In the mean time, we hope 2007 has been good to you.
And a special thanks to Mike Airhart, for starting this whole thing, and our writers, past and present, who give of their time and energy to help others possibly avoid some painful mistakes – very special people all.
Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and whatever else makes this time of year special to you.
PS: And cowboy’s wish ain’t bad either 😉
I made “resolutions” at Rosh HaShana, but i don’t mind doing it twice as a reminder.
I’ve been unable to find anyone to link to romantically in my entire life. I’d like that G-d removing my suffering in some way. I don’t know what way. That’s up to G-d. Maybe He’d make me happy being celibate. Maybe He’d help me find a girlfriend. Maybe He’d help me be simply content with my numerous platonic friendships (that’s right ex-gay industry, my life is FILLED with PLATONIC friends I don’t have sex with!) Maybe He’ll do it in some way I’m not mentioning that He knows about. I don’t know. There’s only really 2% of the population open to me (4% queer minus 2% male = 2% female according to USA Today)
I’d like to study more Torah and learn more about the orthodox gay community. I’d like to learn more about gays in Jewish history (it’s not like they just disappeared until now…)
I’d like to be happier with myself. I’d like to complete writing one of my graphic novels that I’m working on. I’d like to be less abrasive, but that’s usually something that comes with passing time. I get older and more tired and don’t have the energy to be angry about stuff (although ex-gay stuff really gets me going i gotta say).
You have an industrious year ahead of you, Emily 🙂
Previously:
— Emily K.
He’ll do it when you least expect it.
It’s not that He works in a mysterious way, but I think he has a sense of humor when He does sometimes. I had a fling with a Jew once. (Though, I think I was his re-bound love.) What we learned from each other! oy vey! I still smile when I think of Michael.
It can happen in 2008. And don’t be surprised.
I’m seriously considering making this resolution. I’ll have to make myself a very short list of exceptions, but it would still be a wonderful thing to accomplish.
I will not purchase anything (for myself) that is not consumable this year.
Exceptions: my pictures put on CD….???still thinking, surely there’s something else
This means NO: kitchen stuff like gadgets or pretty bowls or even consumable olive oil just because i want the bottle, no house decor, no more material to sew with (i have tons still to be used), no new clothes (i have plenty)
This means I have to stay out of large sections of Target and not venture into Ross or TJMax at all.
drat.
Actually, this resolution will be TONS easier than it would have in the past. My new Oklahoma teacher’s salary sort of makes this a snap!! ha!
Since this is an open forum, I thought I’d promote a book that came out today: A Practical Guide to Racism. I wrote up a review here.
Now, to make my escape before the vengeful ghost of David Roberts pecks out my gizzard.
Hey Cowboy, where did you get the “lodge-styled mansion in Wilson, Wyoming” Idea? Where did you hear about the very obscure town of Wilson, Wyoming?
Just wondering because that is where I live. 🙂 I live in a lodge-style mansion in Wilson, Wyoming. The only thing missing is Jake Gyllenhaal’s character.
It’s funny but the “lodge-style mansion” I live in is not all that big compared to the newer homes being built here. It’s absolutely insane to see these 15 and 20 thousand square foot homes being built that the owners only live in 2 or maybe 3 weeks out of the year. What a giant waste of resources.
I hope that many of you here will take up the crucial cause of environmental activism along with the great cause of GLBT civil rights. Anyone see the film The 11th Hour with Leonardo Decaprio? The answers are found in looking at our world in a very different way. Start thinking locally. Start buying your fresh produce making sure it is raised locally and try hard to buy organic. It really does make a difference for your own personal health and the health of the planet as it has been proven that organic farms fortify and enrich the soil building it as opposed to depleting it. There is a whole world of things that can be done and the watchword for 2008 is Think and Act Green.
Also I wanted to tell my dear friend and amazing artist, vocalist and lyricist Dan Fogelberg that he will be greatly missed. Danny died on December 16th after 4 years of battling prostate cancer which is the same disease my father died of. So my brothers get your yearly exams especially if you are over 40.
God bless you all and I send my love and hopes for a grand 2008.
Benjamin Clark
Benjamin: I git (not get) around. I have clients in Jackson Hole and in Pinedale. I make several visits to your neck-of-the-woods several times a year…mostly for pleasure and not so much business now. The Grand Tetons hold a special part of my soul that beckons me back even stronger than the pull to live behind the Zion curtain where my family lives (Utah). I want a three-story modernist (mostly cement and glass) little bungalow there in Wilson… mostly for privacy. And I wouldn’t just stay one or two weeks a year.
I have to echo your thoughts about buying fresh. My Mom had me drinking raw eggs and carrot juice all my days I was under her roof. She stuffed me full of vitamins too. And I think I’m pretty healthy now because of it. (knock on wood) Though the carrot juice didn’t preclude me from having to wear glasses. (ick) I have fantastic night vision!
I became a rabid fan of Farmer’s Markets when I was working in central California. The best was the one in Santa Maria. LOVE that area.
Oh…would you send me a loaf of the 9-grain loaf of bread from the Bunnery?
And I wish everyone a HEALTHY New Year! XGW is a good place to get a healthy outlook on life too.
Thanks from all of us for that great compliment Cowboy!
LOL, what a wonderful image you paint of me. And ghost? The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated…
Just what is a gizzard?
I’m not saying XGW is a substitute for good therapy from a professional** but some of the wisdom I have gleaned from your postings and the information provided has been a godsend. Truly a godsend.
(**The key word there is “professional”)
oh…and another clarification to Benjamin: The Wilson, WY comment was totally coincidental. I have had a desire to live there for many years. That, and a place near Red Fish Lake in Idaho.
And, if I might indulge in another comment. Skemono and I might be in for some DRW (D. Roberts Wrath) for making an off-topic comment. But…there was someone who got me to appreciate opera. There is some wonderful music out there I was not aware of. It was suggested in another blog to try listening to operas from yore. I don’t understand the lyrics but…damn…some of it is good stuff. It puts some things into a better perspective when you have music.
And, Pam: I would suggest putting those pictures on CD/DVD and make a slideshow and use some music… (wink wink) …if you have the time.
A gizzard is either an organ found in birds (and a similar one found in some invertebrates) that aids digestion… or it’s a cross between a grouse and a lizard, a la the mizzards from the Felix the Cat movie.
It’s an open forum 😉
David,
Didn’t your granny ever fry up the gizzard of the chicken???
Some of my cousin’s would fight over that rubbery fried peice of meat….it sort of had the shape of a really short squatty dumbell…a small rubbery middle with large roundish rubbery balls of meat on the ends. Doesn’t that sound appetizing??
My Oklahoma roots….yee haw!
Cowboy….
jist you hesh up about them pictures!
lol
XGW had become part of my daily life for news and articles on everything concerning ex-gays. It is also a useful information base in my quest to advocate for LGT.
I would not be surprised if someone cannonize XGW 2000 years from now into another Tabiblia. And the facts and truths from this book will come out right, since it is in English and no translation would be neccessary.
Till then, Happy New Year 2008 XGW. Keep on moving!
I think for 2008, I’ve resolved:
– That next Christmas, Bon and I will open the box of our children’s ornaments, and have the courage to put them on the tree. The last child moved out 2 years ago. The ornaments use to remind of us of them, when they were young. Now, they remind us of them, all gone from home.
– That I shall not cry when I find a big ball of white fur from our departed white Samoyed dog, under our bed (which was her favorite hiding spot). I shall try hard to remember all the bad things she did, so that I don’t get another… but the bad memories keep fading far too quickly… and the pictures of puppies keep looking better all the time.
– That I shall step on the bathroom weight scale, at least once a week, and not curse it for stating the truth far too accurately… or at least curse it more softly…
– That I shall pay my bills on time. Oh, we have the money to pay them; it’s just that I always feel very vulnerable and ‘poor’ after sending it all away, so I end up being perpetually 2 to 3 weeks late.
– That I shall learn how to spoil our grandchildren better when they spend the night with us, and sneak them ‘candies’ under cover of darkness with the small Adora The Explorer flashlight… and whisper to them stories of peanut-butter lakes and the dreaded marshmallow jelly-fish… especially if their parents said ‘no more’. After all, that is what grandmothers are for… don’t you think?
Blessings always; Caryn
The new year is such a wonder. I’m glad I made it to the end of 2007. Not that my life was in jeopardy, be we never know.
2006 brought ups and downs for my family and me. Scott, my partner of 9 years, had a medication breakdown and had to be re assessed. I was behind him, as were our children, my family and our friends. With the help of all, he got through it. In 2006, I had to get a new car so I had to take a second job. It was different, but fun, at the same time.
For the new year, I have the following wishes:
1) I wish all poverty would end. If people were not impoverished, crime would be reduced significantly.
2) I wish all people who are inprisoned by addiction could find help for that addiction. If this could be countered, crime would be further reduced, leaving the world a better place for all.
3) I wish that all children could be children. I fear that kids grow up too quickly today. I’ve seen it with my own little ones, especially with the pregnancy of one of their favorite child stars.
4) I wish that all people could start to see people as people. I don’t want to be seen as a gay man, my whole life. I just want to be a person and my love life a part of me. My sexuality should not be my identity. I am a man, a father, a spouse, a writer, and lastly….gay.
5) Lastly, I wish that everyone could be happy and secure. Let us love one another and respect one another. Lets not judge and let’s use our brains and hearts.
These are my new years wishes.
Take care all,
Darren
In 2008 I would like to see …
1. Immigration reform so those of us with partners in other countries can sponsor them just as straight couples do.
2. That all people will realize we are all children of God, and then when we do realize it, that we don’t act like we are God’s favorite and others of other faiths are not.
3. More healing for those who have come out of the ex-gay experience, and more churches for them to go to where they can receive the love and acceptance of God in whatever religious tradition they are comfortable with.
4. People of all faiths hearing the word of God and putting it into practice by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and doing other needed works of faith.
5. And I hope that in 2008, a truer picture of what the “gay lifestyle” really is and isn’t (in that ALL aspects of the gay lifestyle) is presented to America. For example, at my church we now have a GLBT Family Group for GLBT couples with children. The gay life is not all about bar hopping and go-go boys.
Happy New Year to everyone. 2008 is going to be great!
Hey Cowboy, why in the heck do you want a modernist kind of house in the last and best of the Old West? I could never figure that one out with some of these new comers here. I am a 4th generation native Jackson, Wyomingite (from the old cattle ranching background) and the log and frame, brick, etc. style buildings echo our heritage. The steel, concrete, etc. is for L.A. 😉 If you say those days are gone they are for you but not for those of us who are natives.
By the way I am one of the founders of the PAC – The Committee to Save Historic Jackson Hole (Save Historic Jackson). We’re a pretty controversial and constitutionalist organization. We support the will of the majority of our county and have finally given them a voice.
By the way Cowboy, I am a 4th generation native Jackson, Wyomingite from the old cattle ranching background. I come from an authentic cowboy/ranching background and am very proud of my heritage. I am not your steriotypical gay guy. I hate most modern architecture as it typically feels sterile and somewhat cold. It even seems kitsch at times as it is mass produced. I don’t like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy kind of interior decorating and I love traditional styles. An example of a home I love is the one that Brad Pitt and his father and other family grew up in the movie Legends of the Fall. The old Montana town architecture is awesome in that movie and I wish more of that were found in the town of Jackson. I love it! Once those old buildings are gone it is not very likely they will ever be restored. I’m all for preservation and using existing structures for future generations. You might call that a form of recycling and about conservation.
Keep up the healthy life by the way. The Bunnery is a great restaurant but my favorite is Nora’s Fish Creek Inn and my two favorite stores are Jackson Whole Grocer (formerly Foodtown) and Hungry Jacks in Wilson. I have known the founders of Hungry Jacks since I was a little toddler.
Also my mom used to barrell race at the old rodeo grounds behind the Stage Coach Bar (u probably didn’t know that there used to be a full rodeo grounds there) as she was part of Teton Barrel Racing Association.
Jackson Hole has changed but there are still many pockets of the old time Jackson Hole utopia here. Also some of the changes are very good. We are getting a whole bunch of snow right now too.
Might I start a discussion on Mike Huckabee’s appearance on Meet the Press (w/Tim Russert) yesterday. What we have been discussing here on XGW is hitting the main-stream media with the responses Mike Huckabee gave to Mr. Russert when talking about homosexuals. If only Mr. Russert had pressed Mr. Huckabee a little further but he deftly changed the subject at the most critical point in the exchange. It had Mr. Russert exclaiming that millions (thank you!) of Americans are being labeled aberrant, unnatural by Mr. Huckabee but it devolved into a discussion about “behavior” and then Mr. Huckabee side stepping the issue with a segue into discussing faith.
If only Mr. Huckabee could come to XGW and read a little bit.
Okay…Benjamin Clark: I would see your point if I built a Cape-Code-styled beach house in your neighborhood. I guess I could try to form the concrete into the shapes of logs on my fantasy cabin in Wilson; would that appease your PAC? But, as Brad Pitt would point out: you can build a harmonious concrete and glass house in the tall pines of Wilson that would blend in. And before you think I’m apathetic to your plight in the American West: I was very disappointed when the L.A. folk in Park City, Utah allowed the wooden boardwalks on its Main Street be removed and someone with a lot of cookie dough (dough as in: money…as in Mrs. Fields) built that modern monstrosity on the upper end of the street. It lost the charm of the old mining town.
Still…it’s nice to go to Park City and the Sundance Film Festival is fast approaching. I’ll be looking for gay-themed movies again this year. And we could have a discussion on the movies that have been released that featured documentaries on ex-gays and ex-ex-gays.
And, there is a guy in Thayne, or Afton or thereabouts that provided our gay rodeo with the best tasting free-range-raised steaks! I’ve lost his name but I would love to get more of those steaks the next time I travel to Jackson Hole.
yeah, and then when it devolves into a faith discussion, ppl will just listen to it and say, “oh it’s wonderful he’s so faithful” and forget about the other stuff..
Hey Cowboy, I don’t know who the guy from Afton, Wyoming is who donated the steaks at the Gay rodeo but I can probably guess as I know a lot of the brotha’s down there.
By the way our Jackson/Teton County Comprehensive Plan is being revamped by the residents here and they are including some strict design guidelines so the situation that happened in Park City won’t happen here. The theatre where I have performed during the summer and fall (not the big wig funded pretentious monstrosity center for the arts) at the Historic Jackson Hole Playhouse is going to be restored and enlarged as a full dinner theatre with a very historic look to it. It’s going to be awesome. The Garnick family hires a lot of talented gay folks at their theatre.
You sound like a good guy. Keep up the great work and I hope you are able to find the time to go to the Sundance Film Festival. The film entitled Save Me with Chad Allen was an amazing “ex-gay” story along with The Bible Tells Me So. Hopefully we will see more really amazing films of this genre coming to the Film Festival this year. We need to see some film expose’s on people like James Dobson and the far less known LDS Evergreen and NARTH leader Dr. Dean Byrd.
Hear! Hear…on the LDS Evergreen and Dr. D. Byrd! What I found interesting with Jimmy Dobson was his pronouncements about Mormons recently (when Mitt Romney was the topic). Dobson was not too kind to the LDS. He lost a little of the shine off his halo with the majority of my LDS friends and with the people who own the 50,000-watt KSL radio station. I wouldn’t be surprised if they drop his little sermonettes Dobson gives each day. He really touched a nerve here.
NARTH and Dr. Byrd might become the embarrassing link to the LDS Church and how it has handled homosexuals. It surprises me the Southern Poverty Law Center is not investigating the abuses the LDS Church heaped onto their gay students at BYU. I have heard some horrific stories from some friends of mine: of electro-shock therapies… of SS-styled surveillance of the parking lots of all the gay bars/taverns in Salt Lake City and taking down license-plate tag numbers and checking to see if they were BYU students…even espousing gay-friendly ideas would get you in hot water with the school’s Honor Code.
I’m certain most people do not understand the part in Angels in America where the Mormon who found gay love (Joe Pitt) had to be so demonstrative about his temple garments. Author Tony Kushner obviously had some insight there and Patrick Wilson certainly played the part well. Removing temple garments is a deeply spiritual act that can give rise to very emotional conflicts with covenants/blessings and peer pressure in the LDS community. It’s not a simple act of defiance.
That’s great news about the restoration of the playhouse. I certainly enjoyed the plays I attended…but it has been a few years since I have been to one. However, I would love to play one of the gun-slingers at the town square shoot-out! Seriously! I could ham it up. Naturally, it must be the gay side of me that can be so dramatic…or the kid in me that still wants to play cowboy. YA THINK!?!
Cowboy, this banter is full of coincidences as I performed at the Town Square Shootout this summer. If you want to see the pics look me up on Myspace. You’ll find me pretty easily by linking Ben Clark and Wilson or even Jackson, Wyoming. lol I love drama. It’s just melodrama that is a bit much.
The BYU stories you have heard about are old news. They did that kind of stuff back in the 70’s and even into the 80’s becoming very rare during the early 90’s. Things have changed at the BYU but they still are tough on GLBT students who are open about who they are.
I think it’s pretty interesting how Dobson who is an Evangelical Christian has been saying some pretty bad things about Latter-day Saint Christianity but that’s par for the course. He’s showing his true colors here when it comes to anyone who does not espouse his brand of Christianity. I can understand why the Mormons were so untrusting of their Christian neighbors during the 19th century since so many of those who were in the leadership of the mobs who burned Mormon farms, houses, tarred and feathered and even murdered some of them were Christian ministers. I’ve seen the name of one of the so-called Christian leaders who tarred and feathered Joseph Smith, Jr. in Kirtland, Ohio etched into a local Christian Church’s stained glass. So much for Christian love. This is one of the main reasons why I have found religion (Christian, etc.) can be an extremely dangerous thing.
If it weren’t for the bill of rights and our Constitutional laws being enacted over the years this kind of activity would very likely be done by men like Dobson Ironically toward Gays and Mormons, he thinking he is doing God a service. Since this kind of thing is illegal men like Dobson perform their acts of hate in other ways.
The biggest irony is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has heaped persecution on their GLBT members for far too long. You would think they would understand what it is like to be an exile and to be treated with shame and bigotry. It is sad that they have not realized the connection; however as Carol Lynn Pearson (author of No More Goodbyes: Circling the Wagons Around our Gay Loved Ones) has said the Church has moved forward, however slowly. They have shown more tolerance and have even admitted in their most recent document for priesthood leaders entitled “God Loveth His Children” there is more than one quote that they admit that change in orientation is not possible for many people. They even use the word “orientation” in one instance. That’s a big step and they need to be commended for these steps in the right direction. It’s kind of like teaching your grandpa about your orientation. Many grandpas take a long time to learn and understand these things that are so new to their way of thinking.
There is an incredible Gay and Lesbian Legacy in Latter-day Saint history. Michael Quinn wrote an incredible book entitled Same Sex Dynamics Among 19th Century Americans a Mormon Example. That book is filled with many Gay and Lesbian Latter-day Saints who’s voices have been silenced and/or misunderstood. It’s like these people are ghosts. Men like Evan Stephens who was the Tabernacle Organist and wrote many of the hymns of Zion for many years. He was never married and wrote a lot in the LDS Children’s Friend Magazine (very odd place to write these things) about his wonderful “boy chums” who learned about music and how to play the piano from him. The children’s Church Primary organization was headed by three women, two of whom were known as “ardent lovers”. In those days this term often meant very close friends, etc. This tolerance and at times even support of these kinds of relationships in the LDS Church came to a gradual and then an abrupt end with the opening of the McCarthy Era (a very toxic time) when the LDS Church began to search for homosexuality (like a witch hunt) throughout many organizations of the Church. BYU was one of the worst hit by this over at least 2 decades.
I think (Ironically) the Mormon Church has a great capacity to change their policies regarding GLBT Mormons (including myself) and that comes mostly because of the immense love and closeness of many LDS families toward their GLBT children. Affirmation and LDS Reconciliation are both GLBT organizations which have done some great things to help educate church members and even present certain issues before the leadership via letters and other communication.
I hope to get out of the closet completely (I only have my parents left, but they’ll be the hardest). I hope to figure out what I want to do about my religion. And I’d like to write a novel for young adults.
I’m not very confident I can get any of those done though.
RebLaw, those actually sound like really good goals. So I’d like to encourage you to work on the confidence part. 🙂
-Patrick
Benjamin wrote:
Are you saying he was a pederast? Pederasty is NOT homosexuality. Homosexuality implies that we love people the SAME as us – that is, when you’re an adult, another adult. Pederasty and pedophilia are shameful and disgusting in my opinion.
RebLaw:
What religion are you? I think it’s a great idea for you to write that book.
I’m Roman Catholic, and I found a church that doesn’t seem to condemn gays, at least not in the sermons, but lately a local bishop has gone on a “anyone who encourages or promotes homosexuality is committing a mortal sin” kick which wouldn’t be as offensive if the word “promote” and “encourage” didn’t likely mean “tolerate” as in “not actively persecute.” Here’s an editorial about it.
Hey Emily K I think people need to stop labeling so much. Attraction is attraction. Evan Stephans was not a “pedarast” if you were to read any of Michael Quinn’s works on Evan Stephans you could look at the whole story in context. The Primary Children’s Friend was the magazine that wrote about Evan Stephans a lot because music was such a large part of growing up in the LDS culture. Virtually every aspect of life was in some way connected to being LDS including their remarkable building of over 500 towns and communities in the American West, even how to cultivate, prepare and store food. The women’s Relief Society organization was in charge of grain production and storage as well as “home industry”. Women were encouraged (along with other helpful community building careers) through the Relief Society to go to school in order to become Physicians. Part of LDS men’s obligations were to learn agriculture, carpentry and other forms of independent industry. Those things were taught as part of the Gospel along with scripture study, Gospel ordinances (i.e. baptism, confirmation, blessing the sacrament, etc.) and Christian living.
There were a ton of various philanthropic organizations many of which were controlled by the women of the LDS Church in those days. During those times it is my argument that since the “Divine feminine” was so much more a part of the Church as an organization, gay and lesbian people could feel far less threatened and felt more able to express their emotions and feelings within the context of the time, not labeling them as gay but they were what they were. I think that if there were less male domination and more feminine balance (giving women their voice and their authority along side men) within Christianity today there would be far less homophobia than there is now. I have noticed that virtually every Christian organization who have placed women in priesthood positions have also been far more accepting of GLBT people of faith.
The dogma taught within many Evangelical Church’s that only echo’s Paul’s cultural views regarding women (i.e. women shouldn’t speak in church, etc.) influenced by his ancient legalistic male dominant Jewish upbringing is not the Gospel of Christ but only his interpretation as seen through the lens of his own limited world view. His testimony regarding Christ is what truly stands as a witness of truth and what really matters along with his heroic Christian life. I think too many Christians have subjected themselves to magical thinking. They think that the moment Paul had his epiphany that he was instantly changed into some sort of angelic being who was incapable of being human, or at least of any of his writings showing forth his human limitations.
What Dr. Quinn was trying to portray was the fact that Evan Stephans never was married, was very focussed on male connections (there was no mention of sexuality in any of his journals, etc.) that were platonic in nature as far as the evidence portrays. Emily sex, sexuality much less sexual orientation was a subject that just was not discussed during the early 1900s. It was something that was not part of the vocabulary in those days as it is in our society today. In order to find out about our gay past we need to go to primary sources and put the puzzle pieces together.
Evan later moved to New York City and became part of the NYC Bohemian Society a forerunner to the modern gay movement in New York.
I don’t know anything about Evan Stephans but what is your point, that he was not attracted to adolescent boys or that such attraction should not be labelled as pederasty? Labels are usually bemoaned when they are used to excessively divide groups by generalities, usually for the purpose of minimizing individuals. Using the term pederast or paedophile, if done so accurately, certainly serves a more useful and legitimate purpose.
In such cases, to simply say “attraction is attraction” does not make much sense. Did I miss your intent?
I survived the holiday! And by the looks of it, most all here did too. Welcome to 2008 and more lovely (lively?) discussions!
We’re getting back to normal…
RebLaw wrote:
I’m not an architect. Yet, if a friend told me that he wished to design homes, I’d probably suggest he built bird-houses at first. I think it is the same with writing — we write lots of small bits in hopes of writing something more substantial. Some of the small writings are poorly hammered together; some have rough edges; some pieces go in the trash; some are masterful insights; and some are miniatures that we share with friends.
Later, we take classes on different forms of writing and build working models of homes, so to speak. We practice dialog, showing and not telling, and ending chapters in the middle of a tease. We create characters with depth and backgrounds, whole cities, and sometimes new worlds.
Some writers go on to design mansions with ballrooms; some return to making model-sized homes; some remain always in love with making miniatures and sharing them with friends. Yet every one of them — every author — is a wonderful success.
Because when they write, they’ve learned to share their heart.
Go for it, RebLaw. Hugs! Caryn
Just an observation after being with friends for the New Year’s celebration: When gay Mormons fall off the wagon some really FALL. OFF. THE. WAGON. They abandon their Word of Wisdom doctrine. I’m not just talking drinking coffee either. The smoking. The booze.
Is it because there is a reevaluation of everything canonized by the Mormons and the fallen have started to smoke cigarettes and drinking beer in order to socialize in the gay environment? I don’t think the rebels should forsake all the good things they were taught…right?
Me being so sanctimonious but I saw what smoking did to my Father and I chose not to hurt my lungs and heart with the nasty stuff. Though, there have been times I would have loved to ((puff-puff)) especially after…well…((cough cough))…we won’t go there…((wink wink)).
Hey Cowboy, I think that gay Mormons (the young guys especially) tend to “fall off the wagon” because they want to go out and try the “forbidden” to see what it feels like. This is obviously not just a gay Mormon phenomenon either. Anyway I think the smart ones hang on to the good and to their basic values. Unfortunately they tend to be in the minority.
Howdy Pardner!
I get an undercurrent feeling with XGW where there is an implicit attempt to steer impressionable and vulnerable gays to the better things in life. I would hope most take from their religious experience more than just doing good to their fellow man and the advocating of the golden rule but also to not forsake everything that was a positive influence on their lives.
The good values would be advocating stronger relationships. Counseling against infidelity to your spouse. Even raising children in a same-gendered-couple situations.
The Saints just do not know what to do with the homosexuals and therefore most gay Mormons leave the fold. They don’t have a good feeling in going to another religion. The trust level has been compromised. And some…(me included)…sometime consider just what organizied religion can provide in their lives…especially single gays.
So..Ben…stay warm…I’m freezing here and I can imagine the brisk weather there in Wyoming is just about unbearable. I would love to be at the Snake River Spa right now…or the Four Season’s.
Caryn –
Thank you for your kind words. I’ve written a lot in the last few years, almost exclusively fanfiction, mostly short stories, but I’ve written a story that’s gone over 200 pages. I’m mostly worried about my ability to stick to the task and finish it, not my ability to write. I know the first novel I write is going to be bad, almost everyone’s is. I don’t want to be a writer, I just enjoy writing as a hobby.
Ben, Cowboy,
that is the problem with doctrines that go against what is commonly found if you’re looking around for it.
When you set up a person, a situation, even a substance, as some horrible thing you can’t possibly imagine you set up a taboo.
trouble with Taboos is they always get broken.
A person brought up with taboos sees instances where the expected outcomes….don’t happen.
They make friends with people who smoke pot, get straight A’s in college while also being captain of the swim team. they think back to the “winners don’t use, and users don’t win.” campaign and they think….well clearly I know a “winner” who “uses”. In fact, this winner is a trusted and valued person. This isn’t some messed up drug addict who can’t control himself. This is a happy, healthy, well-adjusted, successful, well-rounded person who just happens to smoke pot…..
and they realize they’ve been lied to, so they wonder what else they’ve been lied to about? Cigarettes? Cocaine? Meth?
They meet a gay person who’s not a depraved sex maniac, not a drug-addicted loser, not some crazy weirdo. They meet a gay person who is nothing like the gay people they were told about, and they wonder, what else was a lie?
And sometimes, a closeted gay person meets a well-adjusted, out, gay, even christian person and thinks “hey, he can do it, she can do it, maybe this isn’t so bad after all?”
and then they wonder what else “isn’t so bad”. Which can lead to some not-so-big-deal things, like coffee or it can lead to things that aren’t so harmless, like….well, I don’t think I have to list all the unsafe things out there.
Or, perhaps they figure, “well, being gay is about the worst thing I can do, and yet it’s not so bad. but where I come from, it is…so F^ck It! — If i’m already as damned as I can be, then I might as well have as much fun as I can. So what’s a little lying, theft, drugs, alcohol when you’re already signed, sealed, and ready for hell? What are they going to do, put me in the hotter part of hell?”
Just an observation.
RebLaw: one of the best pieces of advice I received was ‘write one page a day’. Just one. And so often, that time of writing yields more than one page. But the advice gives me just the right amount of pressure as I coach myself: ‘just one page, today, Caryn, that’s all.’
I also find the thought of “one page a day” allows me to slip in a bit of writing in those small slices of time that occur during my day. I no longer need to set aside “hours” for “my craft of writing”… hey, just ‘one page’ gives me mental freedom to use any small bit of left-over time.
Food for thought: 1 page a day, only Monday through Friday, would yield 200+ pages in a single year… and maybe a novel in 2 years [400 pages minus 100 pages of bad writing… yanno?]. Hugs! Hang in there!
I love:
You’re thinking what I’m thinking. Maybe the Mormons have 3 degrees of Hell too?
Thanks Jason for a good line! You’re precious! (And I mean that in a good sense.)
Hey Cowboy,
Go to the Amangani Health Center Spa next time you are in Jackson Hole. Amangani beats the Four Seasons and The Snake River Lodge & Spa hands down. That’s where I work as an independent contractor/massage therapist.
It’s very cold here but I grew up with it and am used to it. I just go get my nordic skate skis on and go skate skiing at Trail Creek Ranch out behind my place here. As my good friend old timer Virginia Huidekoper says “the winter is the time go regain your sanity”. It’s peaceful, it’s quiet and it’s beautiful right now.
Jason you’re right about how people often respond to being gay and Mormon. If they aren’t deeply rooted in their own spirituality along with parents and family who love them unconditionally they have a much tougher time.
Ben!
If I understand LDS theology…a gay man could never get to the highest kingdom in heaven…even if he is/was chaste, celibate and paid a full 10.333% tithing?**
Amangani! (I drove by there and was afraid I couldn’t even afford to pay the valet to park my truck there let alone pay for a one-night stay there.) You must certainly massage some important skin there! But, boy would I love to swim the laps in the pool at the Amangani with those views!
I’ll just wait until they finish the Amangani near Kanab, Utah. (If they can find enough carpenters/workers there after all the polygamists have left.) Maybe they will have cheaper room rates (but I doubt it). In the meantime, I’ll just take the occasional trek with my friends to lowly Lava Hot Springs…get a cheap motel room and hope Gerta is still the resident on-site masseuse. She kneads knots in my shoulders/back only the way a German bread-maker that she was can.
Okay…Gerta is fictional. But I have only had (counting on my one hand) a few massages in my days. And once at Lava Hot Springs was one time.
**the extra .333% is just to pay Peter at the pearly gates a processing fee (or a tip).
Cowboy,
Hee haw! LOL Lava Hotsprings is awesome! I love that area.
Regarding the highest degree of glory and being LDS and Chaste, all I can say is that God is the final say on all things and I know that He is inclusive (it’s about grace) and would not place anyone in a world or universe that he or she would not be happy. I take the more liberal view that Joseph Smith took when he said “God is far more liberal in His views and boundless in His mercies and blessings than we are ready to believe or receive.” He also said that if you could gaze into yonder heaven for only 5 minutes that you would know and understand more than all that has ever been written on the subject. What does that mean? It means an experience with the Divine is a very personal experience and that it is ultimately only between yourself and God and that it is the only way to really understand Him. That is very zen in my understanding.
Happy New Year! It’s been a few days sense anyone wrote anything here so if I could, I want to throw out a question on a different subject,
A few years ago I had a Christian Gay friend who I commented to that it seams like many in the Gay population has very good taste and styles of various things such as clothing, food and wine, home and garden, etc. His response at the time was that because society has made out the Gay Community as being bad and ugly, the gay community would put out nice fronts to prove to society that they were a very good group of people.
However a new stereo type label has emerged in the last couple of years, at least in Los Angels. That new label is “Metro-Sexual” My understanding of a Meto-Sexual is a man who enjoys many of the nice things as a gay man would such as nice clothing, fine dinning, music and art, and even a man’s touch on a massage table but does not necessary has a gay orientation.
I am wondering if any of you are familiar with the term Metro-Sexual and if you are what is your take of these group of people?
I’ve been familiar with this term for about 5 years now. I think it does feed into stereotypes of the gay male community, but so have shows like “Queer Eye for the Straight Guy,” which helped heighten popularity of this term and lifestyle. In fact, “Metrosexuality” is the only “sexuality” that I would call a lifestyle. It has nothing to do with sexual and romantic attraction to any gender and everything to do with appearances. You can be gay, straight, or bi and live like a pig – but you can’t be a metrosexual and live like a pig.
Maybe the appearance of metrosexuality has actually damaged the gay community. While it has brought a new level of public awareness of how a segment of the gay male population enjoy the “finer things,” the fact that metrosexuality is a lifestyle will reinforce a bigot’s belief that homosexuality is merely a lifestyle that can be copied.
But ultimately, metrosexuals aren’t hurting anybody and many men who adopt this way of life are making a positive change for themselves.
As for a “Man’s touch” on the massage table, I think anybody could appreciate that no matter what your gender and orientation. As someone who can often carry a lot of tension in my back, I’ve often found that only a strong-armed man can really dig out that tension. But therapeutic massage isn’t sexual to me, either. So I don’t mind having someone of any gender deliver one, so long as they’re capable of successfully completing the job.
Good points Emila K
I think you are right that metrosexuality can easliy be called a life style of choices, not like sexual orientation.
Okay, as this is an open forum thread, and the question *was* asked, maybe I can get away with this…
Metrosexual Man “Gay in every way… except sexual orientation.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1FjisqKI5Q
If this metrosexual man on the video from Liz didn’t have supper hero powers, this person could really be for real!
I do live near Los Angels but closer to the City of Irvine. Lots of single and married metrosexual men in Irvine. Some of these men enjoy going to beauty spas and getting everything done to them as women.
I think many who chose the metrosexual life style have less issues if any in having mature gay friends. But remember I’m only talking for the LA area.
I also think there are many who think these metrosexuals are gay but these men don’t care making the gay population appearing larger than it really is.
Many gay men naturally tend to have many female close friends. That’s why we need to be careful not to lead on any women. So when society see men making female friends easily they may also may assume that we are gay. However metrosexual men can usually make friends with the opposite sex very easily as will.
John H, many ex-gay “therapists” and “experts” claim that if gays make strong platonic friendships with others of the same gender, their homosexuality will be reduced. This stems from the belief that gay men see other men as mere sex objects with which ti engage in anonymous encounters and one-night-stands. What’s the problem here? First of all, gay people tend to have loads of platonic friendships, even with other gays. Second, platonic friendships can naturally lead to romantic relationships. This is a big problem for gays trying to RID themselves of same-sex attractions by making friends!
Emily: thank you for the concise definition:
After laughing, I realized your definition helped me greatly to understand the term. [By the way, we have 3 children… I think one decorated his room (when younger) in the style of an anti-metrosexual … if you know what I mean.] Thank you!
I truly believe John H is a closeted metrosexual. I bet there are copies of GQ magazines under his mattress.
I’m trying to understand what anti-metrosexual is…Caryn LeMur? Is it mixing plaids? Floral chintz with animal patterns? I know some bikers/leathermen that are so meticulous with their leather-wear and their garages it would hard not to classify them as metrosexuals…only with a different flare. Metrosexuals are not exclusively gay.
I’m disorganized. I have clothes strewn all over my bedroom. I get a headache whenever I smell the Abercrombie & Fitch trademark cologne in their stores. My truck has few rust spots and muddy floor mats. And I’m too shy to make conversation with a female let alone have a network of them as platonic friends.
Oh..wait…I’m late for my manicure! Gotta run!
lol, Cowboy. Ok… I am trapped. Maybe my son, now 30 years old, is a Closeted Metrosexual. Maybe the term ‘Metrosexual’ is not as concise as I had hoped. And maybe his collection of Maxim mags should be reconsidered. I have not recently checked his fingernails… hmmmm… I yield. < laffing and smiling > Caryn
By trade I’m a professional. I’m also single with no dependants so I have some extra money to wast on myself but not enough to constantly be in the life style; but from time to time I would splurg on myself.
In my job I have to be organized. In my middle age I have to be organized in my personal life so my memory would keep up. Also I work hard for my money and now more than ever want to take care of my stuff so it will always look new.
The more I think I about it, if I could had afford the budget of a metrosexual, I think I would be less happy today because the life style tends to be selfish. It doesn’t matter if you are gay or staight.
Also Cowboy, not GQ magazines. Men’s Health LOL
A friend was commenting the other day on why gay men seem so prone to obsessing over their clothing, their physiques, their home decorating, their cooking, their gardens, their bondage and leather gear, or whatever.
To be totally honest, he make these remarks while standing in our living room and looking at our Christmas tree, decorated with twelve crates of ornaments. And for a moment I was agreeing with him, thinking also of the three days and untold dollars I’d just spent on the pot of gumbo we were eating. To say nothing of my partner’s entire closet of Italian shoes upstairs.
Then I started to think about all the straight guys I’ve known over the years. The sports fans who turn their homes into shrines of team memorabilia and decorate their vehicles for every game. The model railroaders and other hobbyists with basements crammed full of collections and equipment. The barbecue fanatics who travel from cookout to cookout towing a huge smoker behind their truck. The guys with the perfect lawns who mow three times a week and explode if a neighbor kid sets a sneaker on one blade of grass.
I can go on, but you get the idea. Your average Joe, whether straight or gay, has just as many obsessions as the gay or metrosexual who pursues the perfect hair cut, designer shoes, or home decor. Obsession seems to be part of the human condition. But we always recognize it best in others, rather than admitting it in ourselves.
All of this makes interesting conversation which I am learng alot from. Infact I started us on the topic of Metrosexuality. However, in every community there are different people with different likes and dislikes, tast and personalities. As we all agree sexual orientation is not a choice of preference. But within the gay and straight communities there are many different people. Some if they can afford it chose the Metrosexual life style and other chose many more various life styles.
Thank You again Emily K for your insight, your help help me come to this understanding.
NickC, I think part of your friend’s question has more to do with why that culture specifically exists in the gay male community. You don’t see straight guys generally obsess about their Italian leather shoes, proper wine and cheese, and livingroom decor. (unless he’s metrosexual..) so why is this a commonality for gay men? As a queer woman, I often wonder the same thing.
It isn’t.
I know exactly one person (one and only one) about whom this stereotype is true.
Maybe it’s just that I don’t hang around with that crowd. Perhaps I have the wrong shoes.
But I am curious. Why is it a commonality for lesbians to own Harleys, drive trucks for a living, get mistaken for men, spend time in prison, and move in with their new girlfriend on the second date?
Or are those also ignorant stereotypes that have more basis in the exception than they do the rule?
Actually, there is president for the stereotypes in the lesbian community. It has to do with gender identity. The reason they get confused for men is because those who identify more with masculinity tend to LOOK like men. I dunno if they own Harley’s…spend time in prison? that’s a new one for me… As for moving in w/ their girlfriend on the second date, well there is a stereotype of lesbian monogamy. I’ve heard that lesbian couples are “most” monogamous and “least” diseased. I’ve gone to school with/have been around plenty of gay men and women who fit the stereotypes. Where do they come from? I don’t know. But they don’t just come out of thin air. For example, often times you see the “butch-femme” dichotomy in lesbian couples. One wears the pants; the other, the dress. This is a fact AND possibly a stereotype.
My point, Emily, is that steotypes may have a basis, but they do not speak of groups “generally” nor do they indicate that such attributes are “a commonality” of that group.
Making generalizations is tricky especially when they result from personal observations and not from scientific research. There might be an element of truth to your observations but…
I’m a teeny bit offended by the issue stating monogamy as being stronger in the lesbian community. Might I postulate: If gay men were allowed to have an societal atmosphere of living together in the same light as lesbians living together you might find the same ratio of monogamy happens. Gay men are not more tempted by infidelity than our heterosexual counterparts.
But, we will never know for sure.
I don’t know enough lesbians and gays to be able to say from observation that lesbians are “more monogamous.” this is just a trend I’ve heard of. I know we’re not supposed to make unsubstantiated claims, but I’m not declaring these claims have any substance. I mean, we ARE discussing stereotypes here. Someone could make the claim that gay men are “less monogamous” because “in general” men have stronger sex drives because they’re wired differently. But really, the idea that men “only have one thing on their mind every 3 seconds” is a stereotype too. The most promiscuous person I know happens to be a bisexual girl who mostly prefers men.
It’s not 3 seconds! I don’t [Brad Pitt] think of [Tom Brady] sex every three [Rusty Joiner] seconds! It’s more like 3.6 seconds.
And it does help every time I open my cell phone: You should see the wall paper photo I have.
cowboy, did you just go from “offended” to proving a stereotype right??
Um…err…yeah….right
Different Strokes for Different Folks.
The definition of the word Weird is Different. So saying that we can say all of us are weird.
Many times others may try to make us perform to their own weirdness or might reject us because of our own weirdness.
I think it would be great if we could only give ourselves the freedom to be weird and then learn to accept and appreciate the other weird people in our lives and community.
Now saying that, the people we befriend I think should always remain our own choice. All good friendships begin naturally and by us trying to force a friendship to happen even out of love would become very awkward or at the very least becomes a outreach ministry.
This makes me think of a different question. I think we all know how important unconditional love and acceptance are. In our strong believes in practising these, does that mean we lose our own right to chose certain people to make our friends?
Also if we think we should always have the right to chose certain people to become our friends, how will we avoid becomming a click group that will not allow anyone else to come in?