A new video by Truth Wins Out demonstrates that ex-gay activists’ efforts to coerce ex-gays into heterosexual marriage erode family values and lead to divorce.
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TWO’s subtitle: “Ex-gay groups love to spotlight the wedding photos, but they never show the divorce papers.”
Two comments:
i) Like it or not, the LDS Church is NOT even vaguely mainstream Christian.
ii) Lots of ex-gay marriage DO work. Mine for example
“Lots of ex-gay marriages DO work. Mine for example.”
Peter – I don’t mean in any way to be disrespectful of you and your marriage, but… I’m wondering about that statement. You’ve been married a couple years, right? I think those who are questioning ex-gay marriages are remarking on marriages that did not last over the LONG haul. My ex-gay marriage lasted 13 years. For most of that time I would have considered it a ‘success.’ Unfortunately the passing of time revealed otherwise. As a divorced ex-ex-gay, I wince when ex-gays put their wives and marriages forward publicly as proof of healing. Nevertheless, I sincerely wish you and your wife well in your marriage.
Lots of ex-gay marriage DO work. Mine for example
That’s a long way from an endorsement, and certainly I hope not the basis for a recommendation. And to echo Rick’s concerns, how long have you been married, a couple of years? And what exactly does “lots” mean?
There is a reality about this that goes beyond what you or I think about the possibility that anyone can significantly change their orientation. If the hard truth about gay/straight marriage failures and the self-delusion which surrounds them is not discussed, we are contributing to the vacuum of information for those who enter in.
And I must confess, there is an element of selfishness to this that I find hard to accept passively. In the case of a gay/ex-gay – straight marriage, it seems there is quite a bit for the ex-gay to gain by the marriage. I think one would be less than honest not to admit that thy were, in part, looking for a successful marriage as the ultimate proof to the world that they are now straight.
Unfortunately, the other person may just want a loving, caring spouse with whom to share the rest of their lives. I’m not sure anyone can be fully prepared for the realities of how that will unfold with an ex-gay spouse.
I guess the video is down?
David:
“I think one would be less than honest not to admit that thy were, in part, looking for a successful marriage as the ultimate proof to the world that they are now straight. ”
One of the obnoxious things that some exgay groups do to gay people is to make assumptions about what is going on in their minds and hearts that it has no way of knowing.
I implore you, brother, do not become that which you oppose.
I agree with David. I have been very uncomfortable with the way some ex-gays use their spouses and children almost as props in their arguement for change.
I would advise any gay person who is unhappy with their sexuality (or anyone who identifies as ex-gay) not to drag someone else into their unhappiness. Getting married isn’t going to solve the problem. It is just going to complicate the problem and bring a whole lot of hurt to the heterosexual spouse and future children.
I guess the video is down?
Whew! I thought my ISP had been visited by my local theocratic council for truth and had censored it. I’m not the only one that cannot view the video?. (sigh of relief)
But it has piqued my interest.
Responding to Peter O:
I don’t think it’s really relevant how “mainstream” Christian you consider the LDS church. (Though personally I don’t think they’re as far off as you seem to.) Their views on homosexuality and reparative therapy are similar enough to the other Christian groups involved to draw a reasonable comparison.
I think the point of the video is that marriage is no cure for homosexuality. I know that the LDS church discourages marriage for this purpose nowdays and I imagine that outcomes like the one presented in this video are the reason why.
If both parties are aware of what they are getting into, it’s there choice whether to go forth with this type of marriage or not. If this has worked for you, congratulations. In general however, these arrangements to not seem to be advisable. With full disclosure – the truth about the extent to which the “ex-gay” party has succeeded in changing their attractions, not simply their identity and behavior – I think most straight partners would be very reluctant to enter into such a marriage.
GayMormonBoy,
I am not Mormon, but I agree that how “mainstream” the LDS are isn’t relevant. They are a significant religious community in the US (particularly some states) and growing world wide.
As towards your comments about full disclosure and both parties knowing what they are getting into, I don’t think that is possible if one is using terms like ex-gay and identity. The entire language of the ex-gay movement is designed to muddy the waters and mislead the public (as well as potential future spouses). While I think the language is bad enough for the ex-gay themselves, the ex-gay can at least look into his/her heart and know who they really are. The heterosexual spouse can’t look into the heart of their future spouse, and can be sorely misled by rhetoric designed to dance around the central question of whether their future spouse is attracted to men, women or both.
disputed mutability said:
One of the obnoxious things that some exgay groups do to gay people is to make assumptions about what is going on in their minds and hearts that it has no way of knowing.
Except that we have the stories of those who have been there to go by. I did not suggest this is always 100% the case, but do you deny that even some “counselors” have suggested marriage for this purpose? Did you watch the video?
The truth may sometimes hurt but many times these marriages devastate. Perhaps you should speak with Pam Whitley (Grace) if you are not sure about that;
Peter O said:
Like it or not, the LDS Church is NOT even vaguely mainstream Christian.
Since someone else mentioned it, I too was curious as to what this has to do with the discussion, Peter. Why did you feel it necessary to interject this?
I have no doubt that a few exgay marriages are healthy, normal, loving, sexual, and free of politics or self-centered agendas.
My own concern is that many are not — and unfortunately the current ex-gay leadership fails to provide balance and caution in its public promotion of ex-gay marriages.
In addition to the couple in this video and Pam Whitley, another cautionary example that comes to mind right away is the nightmarish marriage of Exodus blogger Nancy Brown.
DM, I greatly appreciate your blog, and — without discouraging you from commenting here — I encourage you to consider exploring this issue in greater depth and breadth at your own blog as well. Anecdotes would be an OK start, but I consider broad and objective surveys more convincing.
About the LDS Church stance about marriage being a option for a homosexual:
Elder Dallin Oaks (a former Utah State Supreme Court Justice, now an Apostle in the Quorum of 12 Apostles in the LDS Church):
Now says:
(As if to mitigate any culpability…legal or otherwise?)
But just a couple of paragraphs later Oaks continues:
It remains a topic of discussion with some of my friends: So, what constitutes a “great attraction” and can the prospective Daughter of God be assured continued attraction? Furthermore, why would a Daughter of God want to have a marriage with a man who has even a inkling of being gay? Marriage and relationships are hard enough for couples let alone introducing the gay factor. The probability of a prosperous (read: healthy) marriage is slim to none. I suspect the LDS Church now agrees.
Numerous times my family has presented me with examples of some close and casual acquaintances who have married. Implied with telling me about them was a strong inference I could be happy if I got married. Suffice it to say here are some of the results (nonscientific):
·Clark tugged at my sleeve at a local gay bar and re-introduced himself to me and now tells me he is divorced.
·Roger is fraught with guilt with each e-mail he sends me about his trysts on business trips.
·Steve and wife go on extended trips to EuroDisney but now I hear rumblings he wants to go ALONE on his trips.
·Widower Shawn is fighting his in-laws for custody of his children (guess why?)
And in each case above, the marriage was with full knowledge of the hubby’s inclinations.
(I’m so grateful I dodged the marriage bullet.)
There was an article in the SL Tribune in August 06 about mixed orientation Mormon marriages.
One interesting comment from the article is:
If I understand correctly, marriage has a far greater consequence in Mormon beliefs taking on issues of eternity. And divorce is far more devastating than, say, with a Methodist.
Nonetheless, I would discourage anyone that is primarily same-sex attracted from marrying the opposite sex.
And I think the standard for ex-gays marrying should be — when you find yourself so driven by desire for the woman (or man if you’re ex-lesbian) that you are afraid that if you hold off much longer you’ll be unable to resist fornication, that should be the first day you consider whether marriage may possibly be right for you.
re the video,
What a wonderful supportive woman. I’m certain she’ll be able to find a man that can love her completely without a “Berlin Wall” in the way.
David,
I attempted to watch the video several times earlier in the day yesterday, before I commented, but it would not play for me–YouTube said it had been removed. “cowboy” seemed to have had the same problem. It was working last night, and I watched it then.
When I commented earlier, I was not denying that many exgay marriages are unwisely embarked upon and unhappy. That is in fact my own view as well, and one I have discussed on my blog. I have said explicitly and in no uncertain terms that I think that no one should enter into exgay marriage expecting that it will change their attractions. And that no one should enter into an exgay marriage without being absolutely honest with one’s spouse (and oneself) about where one is at.
What concerned me was that I could not see how else to read the sentence of yours which I quoted (“I think one would be less than honest not to admit that thy were, in part, looking for a successful marriage as the ultimate proof to the world that they are now straight. ”) except as a generalization–that any exgay who didn’t ‘fess up to the attitude you described was being “less than honest.” I apologize if I misread or misunderstood–but hopefully you can see how, looking at that sentence of yours, I could come to the wrong conclusion. It sure sounded to me like you were talking about ex-gays and their marriages in general, not just some subset of them. It is indeed wonderful to hear that you did not intend your remarks to apply to all exgays.
I apologize if I was overly sensitive. I am a little touchy about the “if they were honest, they would admit…” line. It is the exact sort of phrase that certain exgay and Christian groups use to discount gay people’s self-reporting of their own lives and experiences. “This is what THE gay experience is, and I know because I was in the lifestyle myself, and everyone who tells a different story is lying.” I do think we are all far safer talking about the cases we know about, or discussing broad and objective surveys and studies, rather than speculating about who is being honest, and who dishonest, about their personal lives.
Anyway, I hope my view is now clear.
dm
Yes, I would say we are in agreement DM. The video problems from yesterday appear to result from some change Wayne Besen made. Perhaps he had to re-upload for some reason. When I noticed it, I checked the source at Youtube and changed our link. Sorry about that 😉
Mr. Kincaid is right. The Temple Sealing (Mormon’s version of marriage) is for all time and eternity. It’s nigh impossible to get a Temple divorce.
Here’s an interesting fact: In spite of what the Mormon authorities say, a Mormon man can be sealed to numerous wives by proxy sealings (again read that as “marriage”) in their Temples…it continues even today…they key word here is: proxy. And, get this, if the wife has children by any other man (LDS or otherwise) his children are “sealed” to the first Husband. In the next life the First Husband is the patriarch of the clan.
I did not want to go back to the Elder Dallin Oaks and that other LDS Church authority but something they said in their discussion of homosexuality gnawed at me while sleeping last night. They said there was no homosexuality in the pre-existence nor in the afterlife.
It’s pure speculation. No doctrine, no revelation from Joseph Smith has ever mentioned anything about homos in heaven.
I can say with just as much authority: In the pre-existence, I choose to be gay in this life.
That’s a hard concept to gel in one’s mind? If we choose our families in the pre-existence I’m certain God knew I would be gay in this temporal life…so I had better have all the fun while I can.
Darn, all my fantasies were of living in eternity with Bruce…no wait…with Roy…or…(insert some Biblical character here)…or a man like Arnold Friberg paints for the Book of Mormon illustrations. (do a google for those if you like.)
Mike,
I am glad you appreciate my blog. I dig yours too, in a lot of respects. 🙂
As I said to David, I know that some exgay marriages are troubled. I’m honestly not sure about the relative percentages of successful vs. unsuccessful ones, as I haven’t yet seen any studies which might indicate such a thing. (If anyone knows of any, please let me know!) Til then, I’m not sure what else to say on the subject.
dm
DM — you’re right about there being little study about it. I’d guess simply because the numbers are so low to start with, and then nigh on impossible to get enough forwarded to do a comparison.
Isay probably did the closest thing that may interest you, but only with a small focus group and not for comparative purposes (he was looking for the psych. dynamics of how the relationships — and therefore the marriages — evolve). It did show up some important differences to mutually heterosexual marriages, and the 10 to 15 year mark was when things tended to collapse in on itself for some very intrinsic reasons.
9 or 10 months — to pick a wild timeframe out of the air — is barely enough time to confidently make smug comments such as “Lots of ex-gay marriage DO work. Mine for example.” Jeez, even Michael and Lisa Marie lasted twice that long…
Pride comes, as they say, before the fall. And I don’t think that is a ref. to Gay Days that precede an American autumn 🙂
Good, lasting relationships are based on love in all it’s forms, respect (which includes honesty), commitment and a pile load of working together on behalf of each other — they are not based on “heterosexual behaviour”. The 10-15 mark year is when all this becomes rather too much of a miserable terror to maintain, apparently.
During my stint the in the ex-gay realm, I did date a young woman for about five months. For me it was an validation that I was “cured”–that was the example that I was left with as the ultimate proof or validation that I was no longer gay, dating and marrying a good Christian woman. Fortunately, she saw that even though I couldn’t at that point. She broke up with me stating that we were looking for different things and I am very thankful that she did.
Any woman that I would have dated, or worse yet married, would have been that just a trophy wife of a different variety. “Hey everyone, look what I did!”
I’m not saying that this is the case for all “ex-gays”. I am saying that, whether explicitly or implicitly, this held up as the ultimate proof of the cure. Yes, you can live celibately as single man or woman. But then there is always the unspoken questions. “What is he/she doing when no one is around?” “Has he/she not conquered the attractions enough to pursue a relationship or marriage?” (And please notice that I said celibate single. To be single and heterosexually active is frowned on almost if not just as much as being homosexually active. [Their verbage, not mine])
Jeff Harwood wrote: (And please notice that I said celibate single. To be single and heterosexually active is frowned on almost if not just as much as being homosexually active. [Their verbage, not mine])
I am curious if there are or were any examples of ex-gays who have been criticized for being heterosexually promiscuous. I am not aware of any. If heterosexually promiscuous ex-gays do exist, I have to imagine that they must be more rare than hen’s teeth.
grantdale,
Thanks for tip. I will look for the Isay. (Is it the 1998 article in the American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, “Heterosexually married homosexual men: clinical and developmental issues,” or dmis it something else? I see there’s a chapter in Becoming Gay on the subject as well.) It sounds very interesting, even if it doesn’t answer the “what are the odds?” question. I’ve always been puzzled by the “ticking time bomb” aspect of some of the stories I’ve heard.
dm
John wrote: I am curious if there are or were any examples of ex-gays who have been criticized for being heterosexually promiscuous. I am not aware of any. If heterosexually promiscuous ex-gays do exist, I have to imagine that they must be more rare than hen’s teeth.
There may be, John, and probably are. I don’t know. Mine reason for saying this is that most of the ex-gay, in my experience, floats in the right-wing evangelical/fundamentalist circles where anything sexual activity outside of sex within the bounds of heterosexual marrige is looked on as sinful. (Does abstinence-based sex ed ring a bell?) Any ex-gay person participating in extramarital heterosexual activity might get a “locker-room atta boy” but publically would be reprimanded and/or counseled for sexual sin as well.