https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1gAVfbq07M
An interesting report featured last night on ABC Australia’s Hungry Beast. The ex-gay featured could be a spokesperson for Exodus International, he is that spot on. It’s also interesting that one of the gay men describes having been introduced to gay clubs through an affair with this team leader in an ex-gay program. This tracks with a statement by Peterson Toscano (if anyone remembers that, please post in the comments).
Hat Tip: Anthony-Venn Brown
Its not uncommon for there to be sexual activity between people in the ex-gay groups……its the suppression that heightens sexual desire. Of course this makes things even worse….as then they feel enormous guilt. the secrecy adds to the shame. for leaders its even more complex.
As much as I agree with Exodus on some things, I am no spokesman for that organisation. I speak about my own experience and observation and on what God has revealed of Himself.
Haydn, if you are referring to my comment in the post, I said you could be a spokesman for them, not that you are. Your responses reflect the general Exodus ethos much more candidly than do their actual spokespersons.
Am I hearing that you claim you came upon all these ideas and methods on your own? You’ve never read ex-gay books, watched conversion based DVD’s or attended a related conference? You say you agree with Exodus “on some things” so did you not get some of this conversion methodology from them?
I became a Jesus freak (of the fundamental variety) at age 15. I spent 35 years in the “process of healing,” for 15 of those years is was pretty much me and ‘God,’ but also spent a great deal of time in the various ex-gay ministries over a period of 20 years. Married, kids. Four years ago I gave up on the process after having no change in 35 years. My 35 year “process” resulted in a lot of hurt lives because I lived unnaturally (i.e., against my nature).
I shudder when I read or hear of people at the beginning, or at any point really, of this so called “process.” At the end of the day, ‘processed’ chicken is just adulterated chicken.
In the video, Haydn never speaks on his attraction to females. He only talks about his attraction to men. Does he also have an attraction to women?
If so, Was he always attracted to men and women? Is he attracted to his wife? How does this all work?
Haydn. Thank you for sharing your story. For scriptual reasons, I can’t agree with the conclusions you’ve reached about homosexuality and christianity. But I do wish you nothing but the best for you and your adorable family. I also wish that you could see just how adorable other familes, different from your own, are too. Let me ask you, what would change about you if you discovered that homosexuality was not a sin at all despite what religion tries to tout?
I call myself a Jesist. I am totally Jesus oriented but would never be a Christian. Jesus dropped his body 60 years before the first writings of the Bible, he was in essence, ripped off and stuffed in Judeo +++ category with absolutely no say. He was not a Jew but an Essene yet the Jewish portion of the Bible, Leviticus, seems to be the nail in the coffin for gays.
Umm, Christians aren’t Jews last time I checked. Why would any Christian believe in Jewish dictate? But the real tyranny is the mythical Abrahamic God, a serial killing jealous psychopath no different than most other mythical Gods in history. The bummer is so many people believe this Hollywood B script to be real. Jesus is the star, “God” is nothing more than a pilfering over controlling co dependent stage mother that needs her ass kicked out to pasture.
My advice to gays and everyone for that matter, for the sake of religious wars and world conflict; dump God, accept Jesus.
PS Haydn, I feel for you man, you have picked a very hard path. I did the same thing as you, it worked for 3 years but the truth was, I wasn’t straight and had to be a real man and accept my male gay self. That’s what true “guy stuff” really is, being authentic. If you hang out with ‘real guys’ you know what I mean, there is no bs, just real.
I know this is going to come off as catty, but I have to say – that married ex-gay guy still gives off the vibe of “I’M GAY.” A lot of ex-gays try to “man up” and appear more hetero-normative by getting “butch” and playing sports, etc. A lot of ex-gay theory has to do with men not being in touch with their manliness.
But when people like Randy Thomas, Sy Rogers, and Alan Chambers walk up to the stage at some conference, they might as well be introducing Barbra. And I thought they were supposed to be “healing” that “hurt” that caused them to be attracted to other men.
That’s funny Emily, especially the Barbra part. I too see Haydn as gay, and a beautiful gay man at that and would not change a thing about him. I remember in my trek asking to be healed of my “gay vibe”. That didn’t happen. Then I asked to be healed of my gay attractions. That didn’t happen. Then in a dream with Jesus, I asked why he would not heal me and reverse my sexual orientation. I can still remember his words in the dream; “You are not to be healed of your sexual orientation because it is not a disease and therefore requires no adjustment. What is in need of healing is your negative perception about yourself concerning your sexual orientation. That, I can help you with.” I immediately woke up beaming. Finally I had an answer. It was spot on. And that healing eventually did happen, completely.
I guess sometimes it’s all in the wording with what really needs to be healed? Seems so anyway. But then I have a really good teacher. 🙂
Thanks Emily for the chuckles. And Haydn, come back and say hi again. I love Austrailians!
Throughout the segment, Haydn never (at least as far as I recall) claimed to be heterosexual. There was a wife sitting next to him with a baby, but the only attractions discussed were towards men on his part. He did express the hope to be attracted to women in the future, but made no claim to be so in the present.
His wife wasn’t raised in Austrailia. That much is clear from the way that she speaks and her accent. I’m always interested in the story of the spouse of an ex-gay, particularly when they know the deal going into the marriage. I won’t speculate on what made her agree to marry a man that she knows is attracted to men and hopes to be attracted to women in the future. I would just like to hear her full story.
@David Roberts Am I hearing that you claim you came upon all these ideas and methods on your own? You’ve never read ex-gay books, watched conversion based DVD’s or attended a related conference?
Haydn Sennitt has been involved with ex-gay groups since 1998. (From when he was 18.) Specifically, to name one, the Exodus-affiliated Liberty Christian Ministries in Sydney (Christopher Keane).
Haydn also shills for ex-gay from within conservative anti-gay Sydney Anglican circles. Try here for a start.
If you can stomach it, read this as but a perfect example of the delightful opinions of Haydn. You’ll recognise all the characteristic falsehoods and the abusive language. The exchange in the comments here with (College) Jay will also be helpful, as is this and this. Haydn has swallowed the lot from Exodus, hook line and sinker.
I would not advise it of anyone, but a good trawl through that blog will give anyone an eye-popping eyeful. It will take some time to piece together across all those often incoherent posts, but the personal dynamics make for some rather sad reading at times; including the marriage. Thankfully his is not my life to lead, nor do I carry his crosses.
————————————
@Robert: In Haydn’s own words “In spite of my sexual past with men, I’ve always been attracted to women to some extent … I’m predominantly attracted to men … still largely attracted to other blokes”
I think that answers your question?
The same old ex-gay non-story about “change” being sold to a gullible public.
Haydn, in the video you said (in what seemed to me a clear attempt to distance yourself from bigotry and intolerance) you recognized that your experience wasn’t the experience of all gay people.
Why, then, did you make the following incredibly offensive blanket judgment on gays on your blog?
I checked out a couple of grantdale’s links. Done with Haydn. Just another Randy Thomas (albeit with a wife and kid).
Funny, Haydn, I’m gay, religious, smart, industrious, and… chaste. At least at the moment – for I’m not involved with anyone.
Any unhappiness comes from the normal things that make anybody unhappy – lacking money, missing a friend, having to go to the dentist.
Thanks grantdale, that really fills in the gaps. What a thoroughly unpleasant, closed-minded person. I could sense right off that he was well versed in Exodus-speak, so much so that even Alan and Randy may have to use a translator to understand him. But man, he must take his Kool-Aid intravenously.
As irritating and arrogant as he may be, he too is a victim of this ex-gay industry. I’m not at all saying he is blameless, but I think he had a lot of help devolving to this point. The ones I really feel for are this wife and kids. I know she is supposed to have gone into the marriage with full knowledge of the situation, but somehow I doubt that would be entirely possible.
Haydn, you are one loud clanging symbol dude. Work on that, ok?
Marty,
The fact is that Haydn is a Christian. Irrespective (in your view) of him not “being authentic” he is now married with two children. Christianity also has few things to say about divorce and remarriage.
Do ex-exgays divorce their spouses to pursue sexual “authenticity”? Sure – the other guy in this video left his wife and kids. Does that mean that every married gay man would do the same? Not at all.
It’s interesting that you said you did the same thing as Haydn for 3 years – and now you are now referring to God as “a serial killing jealous psychopath”. Not many Christians, exgay or otherwise, are going to relate to that perspective.
Hi all, I have spoken here and on the interview and really cant see how adding any more in this discussion would help. I can defend myself time and time again but that won’t neceaarily change minds. The issue that I tried to raise in my interview is that God is the maker and rule-maker of sexuality. The Bible is unequivocal that gay sex is sinful (Genesis 2-3, Leviticus 18 and 20, Genesis 19, Judges 19, Revelation 21:8, 1 Timothy 1, Romans 1:18-32, Jude, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-12). My love with my wife is real and I love her with all my heart even though I am still attracted to men. That is no different to straight men, who still remain attracted to other women even though they have wives. Sexuality is not as black and white as you make it out to be and neither is my marriage.
@ John I would just like to hear her full story
I won’t use her name, because she’s not the focus of the story, and it would be plain tacky, but the history is apparently tragic. Hadyn has written of this on his blog. Unrelated, except as an indication of what sort of relationship that abused woman found herself in and how she dealt with it, Haydn has also detailed his (nauseating) plan to marry to provide an “outlet”. A Godly One. You can guess what I mean. And wham-bam-thank-ya-mam… it all happened in short order. We all find our level, I guess.
Haydn has also written of his abusive — appalling — behaviour toward his new wife and baby. Of course, it would be better to not have anything to confess in the first place; and I do find this habit of certain Christians of publicly confessing to their sin, and doing it all over again the very next day to be quite revolting. Surely even God has a limit of forgiveness? (No, apparently you can be a life-long maggot… just so long as you confess each and every time. Best not be a maggot in the first place, I say.)
It’s also not everyone who can claim this:
On our wedding night the most bizarre spiritual attack took place. After we consummated our union, JH went to sleep and literally stopped breathing. She felt her spirit separating from her body and could see us both sleeping in bed. Sensing her not breathing, I quickly woke up and brought her back to life. After we’d calmed down, she explained to me that shortly before it happened, she’d had a dream where a Satanic, serpent-like dragon had stood over her with a sword in his hand, threatening to kill her. His scales were bloody from slaying people and he seemed to whisper words in her mind, like “I will kill you. Give yourself to me. This marriage will not work”. She promptly rebuked him with Scripture and the beast went away.
I remember grant-dale’s first night together… I was there, after all… and nothing like that ever happened. The ugly cat jumped on the bed at about 6am, but that was about it as far as demonic visitations are concerned.
Then again, we’re not Korean ex-pentacostals. Or ex-gay with a desire for public attention and a very high but fragile and fractured sense of my own importance. That may be the key.
Joe S,
I think my “God” perspective has been refreshed by clearly looking at the Biblical reality regarding how God is perceived; a war and peace God.
Our true God is only peace and that can be proven by sitting still long enough to feel the peace in our souls, hence God’s presence of which He created in us, and that’s all he created, perfect peace. I think the true provable perspective of “God” needs to be loudly touted from the rooftops. This is the God Jesus loves, and all true avatars for that matter. There is no other.
To attack judge or dessert Haydn keeps the same warring metaphor in place. He is a loving soul of God’s pure peace creation. If we attest otherwise, even in our perception that he may be attacking in his stance, we have witnessed and advocated for the same war god that puts everyone at risk of spiritual suicide. We lose each other in the war, and our connection to our peace within.
I do apologize however, if my “psychopathic God” analogy offends anyone.
I’ve clicked on the links that grantdale helpfully provided and I have read the various things that Haydn has to say on the subject. I’m in two minds about them.
On the one hand, they make extremely unpleasant reading. On the other hand, they could be helpful to some people.
Paradoxical as it may seem, bad advice can sometimes be very helpful, provided that it’s recognized for what it is. Years ago, when I had more or less decided to come out, a slightly older, closeted homosexual man – the sort who’s always ready to give advice when it has been asked for and equally ready to give it when it hasn’t been and clearly isn’t wanted – strongly advised me against doing so. (I describe him as “homosexual” rather than “gay”, because “gay” suggests a positive attitude to one’s sexuality, and his was anything but.) He didn’t just leave it at that – people like him never do. The numerous reasons that he gave me for staying in the closet; his list of things to do and not to do in order to remain effectively closeted; the silly, mean, petty deceits in which he was engaging in order to maintain his double life, e.g. cutting gay acquaintances dead when he encountered them in the local straight pub lest anyone should suspect that he was “one of them”; the enormous amounts of alcohol that he was consuming to deaden the pain of his twilight existence – all these considerations served to convince me that remaining in the closet would mean that I would live a life devoid of dignity and self-respect, hedged around with absurd restrictions that no straight person would ever dream of imposing on him- or herself, and treating both myself and others badly. If I had any lingering doubts that coming out was the right thing to do, his advice and example definitively resolved them, and I shall be for ever grateful to my self-appointed counsellor for his bad advice.
Similarly, a young gay person who is struggling to come to terms with his or her natural sexuality, and who is considering the ex-gay wild-goose chase, might well, after reading about Haydn’s experiences, conclude: “So that’s what the ex-gay lifestyle is like, is it? Not for me, thank you very much. To hell with that.”
@William. That is a very good point.
When I look at what is at stake for some ex-gays, loss of “God” Jesus family friends and church possibly with suicide in mind, I know they are not making their choices easily or out of spite for the gay community. They are truly messed up, at least in the beginning.
By enduring these overwhelming psychic traumas I think they probably need more than anything else, an overdose of compassion.
On another note, it looks as though the balance of the California Prop 8 trial might get televised.
there are some good questions raised here about ex-gay ministries and people…..you might find this doc I created some time ago also helpful. https://www.freedom2b.org/topic/409
Its hard not to pull the age card here…..but possibly Haydn is me…….30 years ago. Loving being a husband and father, struggling with same sex orientation more than I could ever let on…….believing it was evil……and eventually if I tried hard enough…..one day God would make me totally heterosexual. I remember those days well.
I hear that. The harder you pray the harder it gets.
Moderator Note: There is a comment from Haydn above at 5:37am that was inadvertently caught as spam (probably the number of links). I just noticed that and released it. The comments after and up to this one were made without seeing Haydn’s comment, and vice versa.
…except that, at least in theory, their wives are people whom those men are initially attracted to. They give them that “spark” of attraction, that “life” that they feel when they look at them, talk to them, make love to them… and other women on the peripheral are just bouts of superficial lust.
Sad that people can’t tell the difference between attraction and lust.
Good to see that there has finally been some in depth analysis of Hayden’s role in the Hungry Beast segment. I was hoping the truth would out, because I could smell the deceit a mile off. Well done people for exposing the truth about Hayden’s history.
I do have compassion for Hayden, because we all know what it is like growing up in a homophobic society, in which the battle is to overcome our internalised homophobia. However, there is nothing worse than a homophobe, unless it is a bible thumping gay man in denial and sprouting his views about Christianity in a public forum, and especially on television. Why you ask? Because these people give ammunition to homophobics in the broader community and further distress those people already confused about their sexuality. They generate hate and vilification with their screwed up beliefs.
You don’t have to look hard and discover that Hayden is now the pin-up boy for the ex-gay/Exodus movement, both here and internationally, as a response to this segment. This is despite the Exodus movement not agreeing with everything that Hayden said. The damage by this Hungry Beast segment has already been done.
Despite the fact that the lesbian producer claimed she wanted to show an unbiased report on the issue of gay conversion, she has given validation to the option that if you pray long enough and hard enough you can renounce your “gayness”. What an appalling message to be sending to young people or those people in general who are coming to terms with being gay. The point is that in presenting both sides of the gay conversion argument and then subsequently allowing Hayden a voice, she has given worth and validation to the gay conversion movement. This is regardless of the moving and touching story’s of the two Anthonys.
Furthermore, in the online chat afterwards when a gay man asked Hayden what will happen to him when he dies, Hayden’s response was that unless gay people repent, all gay people will go to hell. For me, that statement sums up Hayden’s beliefs based on his self hate. These views must not go unchallenged. We must not give strength to these views or arguments by our silence. Sure we can feel empathy for Hayden’s plight, but the message that he is sending is insidious and dangerous. It is hurtful. People have killed themselves or been deeply scarred over this issue as a result of the hate spewed forth from those in the Christian community who use their beliefs to admonish gay people.
My first boyfriend, who was a lot older than I was at the time, helped me come out of the closet. In the late sixties or seventies, can’t remember exactly, he and his first boyfriend were in the Anglican Church. They were both deeply in love and were sharing a life together. When the boyfriend’s Anglican parents found out what was happening, they had this guy committed. He was given shock therapy and drugged to the eyeballs. My ex tried his best to help his bf, but the family spirited him away and to this day my ex never heard from this guy again. His story is one of many simpler stories I have heard since, and all are horrendous. But what happened to my ex has always stuck in my mind as a reason as to why we need to fight those Christians who denigrate us.
I’d like to think that things have changed, and in many ways they have, but I am mortified that in 2010 we are still being faced with this battle. I applaud those of you who have come through the ex-gay movement and are challenging the insidious propaganda that emanates from this organisation and those who believe that “homosexuality” is a sin.
Or he is simply bisexual. Consider Haydn’s own statement which grantdale pointed out:
Bisexual doesn’t require equal attraction to both sexes. I certainly could not honestly make the statement above.
Haydn,
Thanks for bringing scripture within this topic. I’m curious as to why you posted Judges 19 though?
After the American civil war, one writer whose name I cannot remember noted that many American slaves remained on plantations after the war was over. He said that many of them claimed to be enjoying their newfound “freedom” even as they allowed their white “owners” to continue to boss them around and dictate their lives. The writer noted that, before the war, he had written that the saddest thing in the world to see was a person trapped in bondage. After observing the same people remain effectively enslaved after the war was won for their freedom, he noted that the saddest thing in the world to see was not a person trapped in bondage, but a free person who willfully chose to remain in bondage all the while claiming they were free. That writer’s words ring so true when it comes to these poor, desperate souls. And it’s all I can think about as I watch that guy and all the others like me who, at one point, embraced bondage and called it freedom. We were so internally homophobic that we could not admit to the fact of our pathetic state. It’s much like Emily so aptly noted a couple weeks ago in a post here where she pointed out that those living the ex-gay lifestyle don’t exactly sound like they’re living a life of freedom.
Bondage and Sovereignty, they both have a place. Most people are in bondage in this world on one level or another, and point at each other as the problem; the government, the church, a spouse a parent. Haydn’s plight is no different then most but it is extreme. We all have a desperate inner drive to establish sovereignty, wealth, peace, freedom, acceptance just feeling good. And much like the corporate ladder, some people step on other people for a fake sense of stability, as in this case.
I don’t see hatred of gays through Biblical hell-speak going away any time soon. Haydn represents the reversal of Rosa Parks that would have the blacks sit at the back of the bus and hold a whip if anyone moved. As she “knows cuz God told her” black skin is of the devil.
The inner turmoil in these people is immense. They cannot bear the burden of demonizing just themselves so they must demonize all who are of their “sin”, as that is their birth instilled comfort zone. The truth is this huge banner they wave telling everyone they are healed, continues to get snickers from the straight faction and boos and hisses from the gay factions. Mainly because you can’t fix what isn’t broken, so they look rather stupid to most. A girl in her right mind would not marry a gay man. A gay man in his right mind would not marry a woman. That is how it is seen by the masses and is a very healthy boundary. Pretty black and white.
The small amount of attraction to women Haydn speaks of is similar to my trek. What I realized later on however, is it was a peer supported straight societal “should” called social programming that seemed very real, but wasn’t. There is a force field of energy that emits when you are with the sex you are naturally to be with, that does not occur otherwise. It’s the difference between Mother’s Day and 4th of July. There is a huge difference between being politely attracted and passionately attracted.
Is it time for another Anita Bryant moment? With pie to face? I think we are getting our due by watching the foolish patter by the religious right go down in history as the most dysfunctional group-speak in history. If Haydn wants to live in the Fred Phelps bin, I support that. He obviously needs that experience in his life, that’s cool. Let em live the lies and do hell-speak. For those of us who have worked hard to attain our sexual sovereignty, know that the Haydns of the world are helping us, as they are shooting themselves in the foot as they look downright foolish to the majority as the majority becomes more aware. More and more they are being politely dismissed with a “ya right” label buddy-slapped tightly on their backs.
Though I used to be actively pissed as hell (which by the way provably does not exist) at the hypocrisy Haydn stylizes, and as I see we’re over the 50% approval hump for gay marriage and DADT, I am more inclined to sip Pina Coladas with friends watch Logo, pay dollars to support gay marriage and watch the sky slowly clear of religio-sexual-stench. Preferably on the beach.
That’s an excellent list of very pertinent questions in your link, Anthony. One extra question for an ex-gay mentor, the answer to which can prove very revealing – assuming, of course, that you can get a truthful answer – is one which was, I think, suggested by Wayne Besen: Who was doing this job before you did it, and what happened to them?
PS @Anthony —- I liked your questionaire. I’m wondering, do you think some may hesitate to ask such questions for fear of rejection?
Marty,
Did you mean this “God?”
Gee, I didn’t find it the least bit offensive. There are people who believe in such a being, and what else could you call someone who would subject the majority of the human race to eternal torture? Sounds pretty psychopathic to me. Such beliefs keep people like Haydn imprisoned and those who promulgate such beliefs are the prison guards. Funny how one can be a prisoner and a guard at the same time….
Hi @Marty….I think that people don’t ask those important questions because they are not aware of the all the implications of the ex-gay message of choice and change. Some of us have been working in this area for some time (a decade for me)…..and we can see the holes in the arguments and experiences and ex-gays are so big you can drive a bus through them.
HI @ William….I like your additional question. I will add it to my list.
I was glad to actually meet Haydn face to face at the studio. Hadyn is Anthony Venn-Brown 30 years ago. My hope and prayer is that when/if….he eventually finds, as so many of us have, this situation is unsustainable and damaging to our personal mental health and also our partner that he will feel safe coming to us….and that we will embrace him…..not with the words “I told you so”…but with no judgement and grace. Something he might not find amongst his Christian friends.
BTW…..there is an extended version of this segment which in not veiwable for overseas people. It has my daughter making a very important statement. I’ll let you know when it is up on youtube
Read more: https://www.queerty.com/meet-the-ex-gay-whos-married-with-a-newborn-but-avoids-his-gayness-by-doing-guy-stuff-like-roughhousing-20100225/comment-page-1/#comment-275111#ixzz0goPAGUTb
Paul,
I meant the “God” of Biblical text, which is evil in biblical proportions, which can only stem from human minds who think that way. I come from the authentic teachings of Jesus through A Course in Miracles, which corrects and dismisses the belief in sin judgment saviors hell and an evil God as inaccurate, which are easily provable as human made fabrications and is the core cause of this homosexuality issue. The “true God” is far above such simplistic humanistic meanderings and doesn’t dabble in evil. That’s man’s domain. Watch ones thoughts for a few minutes, a day or a week or two and it becomes quite evident. If “God” really thought in similar terms at all times, well one can imagine the state of affairs we might be in.
My apology was not to dilute my similar take as yours, or the truth of what I say, but to apologize to those that may feel offended while still meaning my truth. Truth has never rested on speculation, which is what Haydn proposes one “believes”. That’s very faulty thinking baseless at best and builds ones house (mental beliefs) on loose sand instead of solid rock. This is what he experiences every time he has a fearful thought about his sexuality. His house is built on stone regarding his sexuality, but his faulty thinking turns his home’s foundation to mud putting him in mental and emotional conflict. If his analogies were true, we would not have gay marriage, it just wouldn’t happen. It would be like making murder legal. Truth always stands firmly of it’s own accord. Love always prevail over fear. Someday he will see this.
I am quite happy that Jesus actually has his own “Gospel” over a thousand pages now in print. It has surely caused me a sigh of relief. It’s also the biggest spiritual book ever written inspired through one singular human being in history, and pleasingly so, was produced by a woman, which is quite amazing.
Food for thought: If Jesus is the Prince of Peace, does it not stand to reason that he was begat by the King of Peace?
Anthony,
Thanks for the reply.
I too hope the best for Haydn, now and in the future. He holds a lot of anger and though he finds joy in his wife and children, I hope he finds the same joy in getting to know himself more thoroughly without foggy filters, as all of us hopefully do. That’s pretty much my main trek in life, clearing my foggy filters or fearlters. As a counselor I’m sure you get what I mean. 🙂
Assuming you are still Christian, I was wondering in your trek, how did you rectify the biblical clobber passages when you decided to own your authentic sexual self?
Hi Anthony,
Us having now being the cause of a slab of another perspective to this by now, we do want to add that we gathered as much about your own concern that “Hadyn is Anthony Venn-Brown 30 years ago”. It was painfully obvious how much you felt that.
I’m in two minds about the broadcast.
On the one hand, it allowed a grotesquely immature (if not poisonous) view of homosexuality to get air-time. This would never be permitted if directed at another group. On the other hand, it also posed a very obvious conclusion: the conclusion to Hayden’s story being your story. If you were Haydn 30 years ago… what will Haydn be in 30 years time? Well… you?
My concern is that the ex-gay industry is notorious for churning through “Haydns”. And that Hungry Beast has, therefore, perhaps help create yet another passing manipulation of public opinion. The faces change, because they have to, but the lie continues. And there is no real care about the individual who once was the public face, as their lives crumble around them they are condemned as ‘weak’ or ‘ungodly’ and replaced by another starry-eyed naive.
They seem to have a short life span. Pushed out in public — and often having their ego fed — when ‘attractive’ and ‘sincere’ and most importantly ‘unknown’ enough to draw younger gay people into the farce… they are dropped in an instant when they no longer serve that purpose. But who cares, they drew in new recruits. Now they suffer in private.
The whole industry is about creating, or amplifying, negative attitudes about gay people.
In their hearts I think they know they cannot change a person’s sexual orientation. But that is not their goal. What they desire is social condemnation of homosexuality. At any cost.
Nevertheless: if, or when, any ‘Haydn’ ever wishes our support: he only need ask.
As we said, thankfully his is not my life to lead nor do I carry his crosses.
Grantdale,
You use “I” and “we” in your post. I’m confused. Are you representing a group or yourself only? Please clarify.
Thx
This hits home for me. When I was in my early 20s, I assumed that being gay meant, among, other things, that I would never get married and have children.
Well, here it is, 2010, and I am legally married to my husband, we have two adopted sons (both marvelous hellcats), and we live in a comfortable home we own here in Oakland CA. I am essentially my own father, with fewer kids and no combat injuries (WWII). I fixed a batch of buttermilk pancakes for Sunday breakfast; now the boys are downstairs in the family room playing on the PS2, and my husband is cleaning up his home office. Really, we’re just a theme song and a wacky neighbor away from being a sitcom.
And, for what it’s worth, we’ve been together since 1995.
LOL, that’s cute. A long and happy life to all of you.
Hi Marty Black…….i was able to resolve those clobber passages by reading reading reading. Instead of just reading an english translation I found about more about the historical and cultural contexts of passages and the original languages.
You might find out more about the journey in my autobiography or on our site http://www.freedom2b.org
In stark contrast to Haydn’s view of Christianity and being gay, Compass on ABC1 aired the film last night called “For the Bible Tells Me So”. It was so moving to watch a positive and affirming view on being gay and Christian. I found myself crying all the way through it, that’s how powerful this film is. Some may argue that it was biased, but who cares. We have to put up with negative messages all the time, so it was great to have the opposite. If you missed it, you can see it on the Compass website.
Unfortunately, most of those videos (including this one) are only available for viewers inside Australia. It is available for rental at Netflx, our rent-by-mail service, and probably some other places. I need to watch it again. I remember enjoying it but I don’t remember all the specifics at the moment.
I did recently watch Trembling Before G-d for the first time. It was made in 2001 and came out on DVD in 2003, but I never got to see it. It is less positive than For the Bible Tells Me So, but I found the sincerity and painful humanity very moving. It shows snapshots of the lives and struggles of Gay and Lesbian Orthodox Jews in various stages of coping with what many of them find the contradiction of their lives.
Both are really good resource material if nothing else.
Anthony,
Thanks for those links. I like what I saw. Regarding you and Haydn, we either hurt or heal with what we do in this world. I am glad to see you are on the healing side.
Also rest assured that as general commenters here in the states, we as a rule comment for ourselves as individuals. For anyone to assume and usurp otherwise as in Grantdale’s case in his comment to you, is a mistake. If you or anyone for that matter had any question, I hope this clears up any potential confusion you and others may have encountered.
Grantdale,
I do not want you to include me in your “we” and/or “our” comments, which is how you came off on the above comment. You sound as though you are attempting to represent the entire room which is not that case. Please “speak for yourself” so as to not cause more confusion.
Byron,
That movie was great. I saw it at the Seattle Film Festival and the room was sold out. Lots of tears for sure.
Robert,
Thanks for that uplifting comment! It really put a smile on my face.
Marty Black
grantdale is a couple. Perhaps you can guess at their names. They use one moniker. When they say we, they are speaking for themselves. They have been posting here much, much longer than you have. Regular commenters aren’t confused.
John,
Thanks for your update.
I have read much on this blog, though not all of it where your assertion may be present, and have not seen it stated that he was answering for his partner. Nor did Grantdale himself come forward and clarify upon request. For newbies to come to this sight and assume “we” stands for a couple and not for everyone listening, without explanation in each comment, seems unreasonable. For the sake of newbies and un-regular commenters that do not have privy to your clarification, it can be confusing. I stand by my above statement.
Marty Black
In this very thread they made a humorous comment about their first night together. See if you can find it. It can sort of be like our own Where’s Waldo?
John,
Cheeky, though it doesn’t change the confusing formula of “we” equals Waldo. Though not the rule, in partnerships I have found most to have some s’emblance of autonomy when speaking ones mind.
Cheers
Marty, it’s just how they decided to post and they have been around here since the first days. I’ve been here since about 2004 if you count lurking and it has come up maybe 2-3 times in that period. No on faults you for misunderstanding, but now that you know, there is no reason to ridicule them for it.
We wouldn’t want to encourage people to do the dual nickname because then it really would get confusing, but grantdale are sort of “grandfathered in” so to speak. Let’s just consider it part of their charm and leave it at that, ok?
As for autonomy, one does not necessarily speak for the other, rather one or the other may be commenting at any particular time, Grant or Dale.
Back to the topic…