Wayne Besen of Truth Wins Out is countering anti-gay prejudice by publishing a full-page advertisement in the Salt Lake Tribune today.
The ad is a response to last week’s New York Times ad sponsored by No Mob Veto, which used a handful of incidents to paint the entire backlash against Proposition 8 – California’s constitutional amendment to ban marriage equality for gays and lesbians – as a campaign of “violence and intimidation.”
TWO’s ad will take conservative Christian leaders to task for portraying the demonstration as mob rule, when in fact only a small number of violent incidents have marred an otherwise peaceful and lawful protest.
Besen also accuses leaders of hypocrisy for denouncing “anti-religious bigotry” and defending the Latter Day Saints, while their own rhetoric reveals a history of anti-Mormon sentiment.
Signatories of the NYT ad included Catholic Bill Donohue and evangelical Chuck Colson, who once claimed that Mormons “are not Christians.”
Their choice of titles, “No Mob Veto” is rather… ballsy, considering that the same principle of mob rule is exactly what happened in California.
But this was a very well behaved mob in nice suits and big hair.
The entire Prop 8 was a mob veto from it’s onset. The Calif Supreme Court was approached to stop it in it’s tracks during it’s signature process and declined. If anything such as prop 8 happens again, maybe legal tenders won’t be so fast to holster themselves.
I am awestruck watching the sleeping giant in the gay community rise up and roar. I believe the current media blitz is good press for gay marriage and making gays stronger, feel more individually supported, and more visible in general. I also believe boycotting is essential to getting the blathering delusions of the religious right regarding sexual issues in general, on the cutting board for a global reality show showdown, once and for all.
Isn’t it rather silly so many straights would rather have gays marrying them, rather than gays marrying each other?
I applaud Wayne for his tenacity to fight fear with fact. Though one of many, he’s truly acting the lawful Prince in times of constitutional lawlessness.
Here in Northern VA, I’m not hearing much on the Community’s reaction. I see Besen’s credible actions, and scattered protests (largely over?) and the day without gay apparently fizzled.
We need a gay MLK or Gandhi to stand up… some sort of effectual leadership, not the DC cocktail circuit group.
SharonB,
No time like the xmas present. Might you be offering your blue jeans and/or tunic? ; )
“We need a gay MLK or Gandhi to stand up… some sort of effectual leadership, not the DC cocktail circuit group.”
We need someone to be assassinated?
Yes, we need a leader but the costs for that individual are high.
I fail to see how it is “bigotry” to question whether Mormons are Christians or to call their religion a cult, as the Wayne Besen ad suggests.
Mark F,
Because the same spirit of dishonesty that misrepresents what it means to be gay is at work in misrepresenting the faith of Mormonism . Deception is the hallmark of all bigotry.
Well, whether Mormonism is “Christian” depends on your defintion of “Christian.” It has a number of very peculiar beliefs that are very far from traditional Christianity. It’s not bigotry to raise the issue.
Much like some have said nobody owns the word: marriage…in the same vein, Evangelicals don’t own the word: Christian.
In my opinion, a true Christian doesn’t need a label nor an affiliation.
“Peculiar beliefs” are a matter in the eye of the beholder.
And members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints need not, nor do they care to be defined by what others may think what a Christian is. The very act of trying to define “Christian” will accomplish nothing but a futile debate.
So, let’s take a look at what would happen if a LDS (Mormon) Ward House would be constructed in some part of Iraq. We can probably agree it would be considered a Christian Church there.
And, quite frankly, I don’t think Mormons care about what other religions think if they are a Christian church or not. They believe their Church was re-established by Jesus Christ himself. They need no other validation.
there’s a saying I heard from a rabbi I frequently listen to: “G-d created Mormons so that Christians would know how Jews feel.”
It’s true.
I grew up in Evangelical Christianity where I was taught for most of my life that Mormonism was a Satanic counterfiet of “true Christianity.” Several years ago, I went to work for an agency that had quite a lot of Mormons working there. As I talked with them on a daily basis, I started realizing that when it came to things of any spiritual subject, I would, in my mind dismiss whatever they said (almost automatically) because they were not “True Christians”. Yet, from my day to day contact with them, I started to realize that what they had to say often times had great value. So I began to re-evaluate my previous indoctrinations against them. Then a memorable day–at the youth group of my Evangelical church, I viewed a video titled “The God Makers.” I was deeply, deeply offended by the obvious misrepresentation of the Mormon faith–by professing Christians, no less. I thought to myself that if their (the producers of this video) idea of Christianity was truth, than why did they have to tell lies about the Mormon faith? It was that question which dramatically changed the course of my life. I started praying (obsessively) that God would send me someone who could tell me what the Mormons really believed. Two weeks later two Mormon missionaries knocked on my door. I thought it more than coincidence. So I studied with them, and to my surprise and to the surprise of all of my “Christian” friends, I was babtized a Latter Day Saint. This was the beginning, the open door to question everything I’d believed most of my life before, and which eventually led me to come out of the closet and to finally accept myself as gay and to admit to everyone else that I was gay. I will say this in closing, and with confidence that most of what Evangelical Christians are taught about Mormon doctrines are gross misrepresentations, or out and out LIES.
Ron
Latter Day Saints are indeed Christians. I’ve read a lot of anti”cult” material growing up an Evangelical Christian, which so narrowly defined Christianity as to make it not very much about following Christ and more about specific doctrines one must uphold to be called a Christian. But what has been most offensive to me was discovering that my beloved Christian aplogists such as “Dr” Walter Martin and others who made their living almost entirely by bashing other forms of Christianity almost always misrepresented or purposely lied about the beliefs, practices the doctines of those so called “cults”. An example of this kind of bigotry in action is the aweful screed “The God Makers” and its companion movie–especially the movie. I was so offended by the obvious lies and misrepresentations of the Mormon faith in that “documentary” that when two Mormon missionaries came to my door a couple of weeks later, I invited them in to get the story straight. It is no surprise to me that the same tactics of misrepresentation and lies come from those Evangelical leaders highlighted in Besen’s reponse concerning the subjects of homosexuality and Mormonism. That was my point previously. The same spirit that seeks to demonize gay people is the same spirit that demonizes other Christian faiths. I am surprised that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has aligned themselves with these people after years of abuse from those so called “true Christians”. And I am outraged at the hypocrisy all around.
Thank you Mr. Thompson,
I worry about those who believe the gross generalizations and propaganda spewed by the likes of some anti-gay and some anti-Mormon groups. I get frustrated sometimes when they don’t try to research the roots of the misinformation or they conveniently want to believe the lies. (i.e. all Mormons are polygamists like the FLDS, all gays are lusting for multiple sexual encounters and recruit the impressionable young, etc.)
I worry the ignorant want to remain ignorant.
For me, it’s pretty simple; anybody who follows a person called “Jesus Christ” (or, “Yeshua HaMashiakh,” for that matter) is a “Christian.”
YES!! A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. I have met Christians in many faiths. I –sorry if this seems presumptuous– have met atheists who are followers of Jesus Christ. The golden rule, after all, transends religion, or the lack thereof.
Emily said:
I can see why that would appear so from your vantage point Emily, just as some Jewish issues take more study for me to truly understand. In reality, and I don’t want to belabor doctrinal issues on XGW beyond what is necessary for the topic, it is important to know what the person or faith considers Jesus to be. IOW, someone could say they follow “Jesus the great teacher” or “Jesus, a god” but neither would be considered “Christian” in the historic sense. Who Jesus is and what he did are at the core of the Christian faith (much more so, incidentally, than any scriptural notice about same-sex relationships).
While the protestant split (and certainly the current, evangelical portion of that group) might emphasize this part more than the original Roman Catholic church, both have that central core in common. I believe the literal meaning of the word “christian” is to be “Christ-like” which makes the discussion even more confusing.
The more important thing here is that I think it safe to say that a majority of Protestant and RC believers do consider the Mormon church to be at best heretical, and at worst a cult. For the leaders of the former to then join staunchly with the latter against marriage equality as though that were not true is hypocritical in the worst way.
Ron Thompson said:
Ron, I would have to disagree with that statement for any number of reasons, not the least of which are the words of Jesus John 14:6. Again however, I would appreciate keeping the discussion within the bounds of the original topic, lest we begin to tread on the faith of others. We deal with religion as much as we have to in that it is such a big part of the ex-gay equation, but we don’t want to hurt anyone while doing so.
David, while both of our theological standings are beyond reconciliation (and I’m fine with that), I want to say that I don’t think quoting the equivalent of John 3:16 is a good way to keep those bounds from being broken and those faiths from being tread upon. One of the things that keeps me from warming to Christianity and the most devout, open-armed “Christ-followers” is the ardent belief in the damnation of others due to a doctrinal arbitration.
Actually, I know a great deal about splits and fractures in the Christian religion; much of them started in the earliest days of the faith, when political councils were held to determine who was “right” (well, who the Roman Emperor said was “right”). Most of them were fairly quickly quashed, while some lived a short life. See the Arian Controversy for but a single example.
I find it most amusing (and sad) that fundamentalists consider Catholicism to be a “cult.” As if Catholicism doesn’t pre-date Protestantism by 1,000 years. That’s what it’s about, “revision” to see who has the “truest” doctrine, the “best” interpretation, the “real” meaning… I think that’s what movements like LDS embody. From here, it all looks like the same search.
And to give an example of the schism between Evangelicals and Mormons: Glenn Beck (a conservative personality on CNN) has been removed from Focus on the Family website because he is Mormon.
It seems FOF doesn’t really focus on Family but rather it focuses on….
(You can fill in whatever you like.)
Mr. Besen’s ad in the Salt Lake Tribune was right.
No Mob Veto said:
Now they want to be Mormonism’s friend in order to stomp gay people into the ground. Its curious to me that when I attended the dedication of the Temple in Spokane WA ,there were “Christians” picketing outside, warning us that if we did not leave Mormonism, we were going to Hell. And now that I am no longer a Mormon, I’m still going to Hell. At least my Mormon friends hold out a little more hope for me than my Evangelical friends.
I also need to aplogize to any atheist I may have offended in my last bear hug of a post. It was a pretty outrageous statement, although I have friends who are both atheists and … well…are more Christ-like than some Christians I know–more Christ-like than myself. I also can’t help but to believe that God is going to save us all. I know that I may be stepping on some theological toes with that one.
Emily said,
I really would like us to steer clear of this and back to the topic. To clarify my last statement or rather your interpretation of it, I didn’t say either of these things, though I suppose the first could be inferred from my attempt to explain the general opinion of the Mormon church by protestants/catholics.
I was responding to the rather absurd comment that an atheist can be a Christian. I knew that it was likely that someone else would do so if I didn’t, and I wanted to get us back on track. The reference from John was the quickest way I could think of to do that, though there are many others I guess. It was not aimed at you unless you also claim to be a Christian, in which case one could expect you to follow the words of Christ himself.
The one connection this has to the OP is the issue of hypocrisy, but it’s tenuous.
David Roberts said:
David Rattigan wrote:
Truth Wins Out said:
Mark F said:
Cowboy said:
Bigotry comes from an attitude of self-righteousness and an end justifies the means mentality. Lies have been told about gay people, and lies have been told, by some of the same people, about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This, I believe was one of the issues Besen was addressing in his advert. I wanted to bring a short accounting of my own experiences of coming to a place where I accepted Mormons as Christians, studying their Church and doctrines, after having been offended by the anti-mormon literature and movies I’d read and seen growing up an Evangelical Christian. However, my absurd statement about some atheists being Christians, inadvertantly proved Cowboys point above. I do, however, still think this was a good discussion and I don’t understand why it is believed to have gone off topic. I do want to say in my defense that I am new at this posting messages thing. I’m not a skilled writer and can be over-enthusiastic. I’ve been reading this site for a couple of years now, and it has been wonderfully informative. I have a great deal of respect for its authors, and hope to offend no one.
Ron, we walk a rather fine line here and to be honest, I’m amazed it normally works as well as it does. Let me explain so you don’t feel personally put off.
There are lots of blogs that deal with gay issues, anti-gay sentiments and how they affect the GLBT community in general. There aren’t many that concentrate on the ex-gay issues, and even fewer that try to act as a watchdog. That leaves us in a very specific niche. In order to accomplish that mission, we will inevitably deal with issues of faith and politics, two of the most polarizing, often fruitless topics one can have in public.
In the areas of faith, we almost always deal with some form of Christianity because those who are involved in ex-gay organizations are largely motivated by claims they attribute to that faith. Essentially, ex-gay issues are almost always Christian issues. So it is impossible for us to avoid discussing faith in general, and Christianity in particular. There are some exceptions, such as Jonah, but those serve to prove the rule.
That being said, we try to keep the discussion away from the merits or validity of any particular faith, and instead deal with how they intersect ex-gay issues. In the instance of the original topic on this thread, Besen is emphasizing how major leaders who normally consider (publicly) the Mormon church to be a heracy or cult, are now joining with them as brothers and sisters in defense of “a common foe.”
Clearly, the ends justify the means for them, and that is hypocritical. We can point that out without making a call on the facts of the matter one way or the other. We can deal with these issues without trying to answer the question of whether Mormons are part of the traditional Christian church or not. It doesn’t always work, and I will admit to jumping in myself on occasion (I am a Christian). But I promise that my overriding goal while here is to be as agnostic toward all faiths as is humanly possible so that all feel welcome to discuss the issues we are here to discuss.
This does not mean we must be sterile, but it does mean that on occasion, one of the other writers or I may ask politely that we steer back to the topic. That doesn’t mean you broke a rule or have done something wrong, it just means we are all human and it takes work to keep XGW a safe and sane place to discuss what I think we can all agree is a serious issue with dreadful consequences, the mainstream ex-gay movement.
Also, while we haven’t had many of them lately, we will sometimes have “Open Threads” in which you can express less topical thoughts. It is not a free-for-all, but certainly you could express personal thoughts about your own life there.
Thank you David for your kind response. I think I get it now, but if I stray, you are most welcome to again gently nudge me in the right direction. This is a steep learning curve for me and I appreciate your taking time to explain these things to me. Have a wonderful evening.
And I have to add: XGW is free from advertisements and is office-friendly. XGW is truly a unique place. I consider it a place where contrasting views from “the other side” can respectfully be aired in a public forum. That fact alone takes a lot of maintenance.
I, too, want to thank David Roberts for his guiding hand and the other authors here for their contribution in making this a reputable website.
Thanks Cowboy, nice to hear it. We are trying very hard to avoid the advertising. We’ve come close but it’s not easy to find a service that will allow us to tone down the stuff they want to display on a site that talks about gay issues. We don’t want to compromise the accessibility of the site.
I agree we should keep it ad-free. Why the hell are gay-issues ad services rife with pick-up websites and muscle ads??? Do they really think that’s what a “gay” website is automatically about?? If you went to a “straight” blog it wouldn’t have pictures of girls in bikini’s; certainly not one that wanted to be taken seriously and be considered corporate-safe. Sometimes I wonder if our own community is bringing us down in some ways. There’s no way we’re going to enlighten minds by embodying stereotypes. Additionally, why are the ads always targeted at gay men? That’s only one of the letters in GLBT, and it’s certainly not who we cater to, because we cater to all walks of life and not exclusively gay men.
Oh, I don’t know Ms. K: I bought some home-automation devices from _________ **. Each day (no exaggeration!) I get an e-mail that features a bikini-clad hottie that would make Victoria’s Secret blog blush. At work, when I’m checking my e-mails, I have to be fast on the mouse to minimize the image-du-jour.
**I’ll have to leave it blank here so I don’t give them undue “free” advertisement but they’re part of the X-9 (but add one) electronic home automation system. But, what is more fascinating…I know I blush when I see those ads. Explain THAT to me. Oh, never mind, I’ve gone way past the OP topic already.
Oh, and Ron Thompson,
The City of Draper Utah is preparing a special place for protestors at the new LDS Temple Open House later this month. Why? The implication in the news has been they are thinking “the gays” will have another protest at their sacred Temple site. Actually, I haven’t heard any of my friends planning on protesting except, they’re going to get in line for the tour and critique the interior decorating.
My two experiences in a Temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints were truly sublime experiences. The decor was exquisite and the feeling of that holy place was truly sacred. I feel honored to have been there and I stlill look forward to that day when I am finally allowed to enter therein again as a worthy member of the Church. I can’t help it. I truly love this Church.
I’m happy you are working towards being a worthy member of the Mormon Church. Whatever gives you peace.
My holy places are mostly along the tops of the Wasatch Mountains here. Truly sacred. You can’t disagree with the decor.
Sorry about last night’s post. I was mostly asleep when I wrote it. My partner saw me typing and said, “What are you doing? You just took a stupid pill. Go to bed!” I definitely should not write anything after taking an ambien. Just to clarify what I may have been thinking when I did write last night’s post: With what ex gay watch is doing, and other pro-gay organizations’ work in educating the puplic about LGBT issues, and with increased tolerance toward LGBT people among the younger generation, maybe someday, well into the future I know, my church will come to a place where they no longer demand that I deny a key component of myself to be an active and worthy member. I miss them, but as it now stands, cannot serve or participate in worship among them because of their stance against LGBT rights. There. Said without the drug induced gushyness . I take comfort in the lovely mountains all around me, in beautiful Idaho. I can’t disagree with the decore of any wild place.
I should have said: “…I can’t disagree with the decor or the Decorator.” [wink wink]
.
Ron,
We probably won’t be alive when the LDS Church treats its gay Saints as equals. I’m sure there are Pre-existent Spirits still to come that will eventually replace the old dogma with their new enlighten ideas…so, I’m not going to grovel on the granite steps at the LDS HQ or tromp around their Temple Square with protest signs.
*I* need to find a partner and make the best of what I have now. I’ll let the next five or six generations do the work. (That’s assuming the younger generation of L-D Saints will be enlightened about gays.)
Cowboy,
Well said and AMEN!