In his celebration of having “left the gay identity” sixteen years ago, Exodus International Vice President Randy Thomas attempts to define on his blog what that even means. In the comments section, he was challenged by a commenter known as “College Jay” to define what he called the “gay ideology,” which supposedly held him back from achieving a relationship with the Christian God. Here are his comments, uncut:
When I refer to gay ideology… I am not talking about bar culture (even though that is a part of it.) In fact your seeming need to make sure the non-sensational are represented is a non-verbalized expectation of gay ideology to “balance” what is assumed as negative.
I don’t mean gay ideology in purely a negative manner even though I found it to be legalistic and limiting as a whole. I mean I believe it is an ideology that comes with a general worldview of what it means to be “gay.”
There are many lifestyles represented within gay ideology. I do believe there are core beliefs and worldviews associated with the modern context of being “gay.” That would be the basis and reason I use the phrase “gay ideology.”
Upon being challenged further, he provides Webster’s definition:
1. the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group
And then proceeds to make this claim, negating any positive steps he might have made toward true understanding of the gay community:
If there wasn’t a gay ideology, “coming out” would have no meaning as being a shared experience. That’s just one example. There also wouldn’t be any national organizations to represent those who identify as gay. You would have millions of gay individuals and no gay community if there wasn’t an underlying gay ideology at some level.
Randy’s claim that the “need to make sure the non-sensational are represented is a non-verbalized expectation of gay ideology to ‘balance’ what is assumed as negative” ignores the fact that any concerned individual of any background would protest someone who paints their “lifestyle” with a single broad, negative stroke. Many Jews might be rich financiers, but I’m a poor artist. Many Mexican residents in this country are illegal, but there are also many Mexican citizens. Prisons are loaded with African Americans, but one of their own is also running for President, endorsed by another who earned a substantial sum and huge public influence in part thanks to millions of adoring fans.
Of course we want the “normal” gays to be “recognized.” But Randy phrases it in a way that makes it seem as though drug use, promiscuity, and disease are so pervasive among all gays that we are desperate for the “mundane” gays to be acknowledged in attempt to cover up this supposedly glaring flaw. He even still admits he believes this – by saying that bar culture is a “part of [the gay ideology.]” Honestly, I cannot think of a single gay or lesbian friend of mine who considers cruising bars a part of their core beliefs, as a gay person, or otherwise.
In yet another twist, Randy equates being gay with “legalism” and a “limiting” existence, which is one of the reasons he “left.” Ironically, many describe his brand of Christianity with those exact terms. XGW recently posted a book review confronting the very issue of coerced Christian conformity. The gay community, quite to the contrary, is made up of a diverse lot of people. There are religious gays (including Christian gays, Jewish gays, Muslim gays, and Hindu gays), atheist gays, republican gays, pro-life gays, working class gays, highly intelligent gays, mentally ill gays, “straight edge” gays, and alcoholic gays. Some gays support the gay rights political movement. Others distrust it. There is a lively discussion taking place on Box Turtle Bulletin over whether the Human Rights Campaign, the largest gay advocacy group in the nation, is doing an effective job advancing gay equality. National organizations for gays aren’t formed because there is a “single ideology on some level.” They are formed because of individuals who collectively want to make a difference – whether they have the approval of their own community or not.
The only “doctrine” I can think of that applies to all same-sex attracted people – every single one – is that we are attracted to the same sex. This is not a political statement or a mission statement. This is a fact about one’s personal life. Coming out “has meaning as a shared experience” because it’s very difficult for many gays to come out by themselves. As a community that shares the same form of love – considered by much of society to be disgusting and deviant – we also all share the burden of facing a hostile reaction. Should a gay teen be kicked out of their house upon coming out to their parents, having friends in the gay community who will aid them in that time of need is tremendously beneficial. And because coming out can be a daunting task for many, celebrating such an experience with others who have done the same can be very comforting. This does not mean that everybody will celebrate in the same way. Not everyone enjoys attending “gay bingo” in the Gayborhood, just like not everyone enjoys eating potato chips. There are gays who despise such “camp” and think it is detrimental to the community as a whole because it feeds stereotype. But others can’t get enough of it and consider it a part of gay heritage.
Randy claims that “millions of gay individuals” cannot exist if there is also a “gay community.” Would the same principal apply to African Americans and Jews? And if the existence of community is proof of a “gay ideology” then does Thomas also believe in a single “African American” ideology? How about a “Jewish” ideology? I can personally attest that the American Jewry is VERY divided and diverse. Communities don’t form simply because individuality ceases to exist. Where people are persecuted, a sense of community often forms as a common defense – in this case a defense against the very attitudes which are fostered by Thomas, Exodus, et al.
As for homosexual “core beliefs,” I can’t think of a single one, not even at the most basic biological level: because not all gay people think it’s okay to engage in homosexual acts. Many gays instead choose to remain celibate for personal reasons.
Maybe Randy Thomas is confusing political affiliation with the desire to live our lives in peace. This is a basic human desire and crosses all boundaries, no matter what one’s particular affiliation may be. It is not unreasonable for two consenting adult men or women to be able to behave as a heterosexual couple would on a date without facing offended vocal opposition. As long as everybody involved minds their own business, there will be no problem.
Addendum: Randy has posted this point-by-point explanation. I have a feeling this is as exact as he’s going to get.
Emily, thank you for that critique of Randy Thomas’s comments on the so-called gay ideology. You’ve exposed them for the ill-considered bilge that they are.
Maybe i’m just stupid, but i’m pretty sure i’m not. But if i’m stupid, how would i know unless I had an ideology to tell me that I’m not.
Or to put it another way– i read his comments several times over and I STILL don’t know what he was trying to say. “Leave everyone the hell alone” focus on your own damn family” sound far less ideological and more human (and humane) than anything spew coming from the Christian right.
Maybe Randy is just engaging in transference. Try reading what he wrote with a few minor changes and consider how it works:
When I refer to
gayfundamental Christian ideology… I am not talking aboutbarchurch culture (even though that is a part of it.) In fact your seeming need to make sure the non-sensational are represented is a non-verbalized expectation ofgayfundamental Christian ideology to “balance” what is assumed as negative.I don’t mean
gayfundamental Christian ideology in purely a negative manner even though I found it to be legalistic and limiting as a whole. I mean I believe it is an ideology that comes with a general worldview of what it means to be “gay” “Christian.”There are many lifestyles represented within
gayChristian ideology. I do believe there are core beliefs and worldviews associated with the modern context of being “gay” “Christian.” That would be the basis and reason I use the phrase “gayChristian ideology.”Well said Paul. And the fact remains that being Christian IS a freely chosen and fluid instance of education, community and access. There is NO limit or enforcement regarding association or lack of it as a Christian. It’s something that CAN be abandoned, and taken up at will.
Sexuality, whether gay or not, is a human condition that MILLIONS share that can also share in the structure of monogamous and long time relationships. And said conditions of that relationship can be achieved with or without being a believer.
I don’t have to tell any of you. As Emily so rightfully pointed out, blacks…and Jews share the background of being minorities under seige at some time or another.
Becoming supportive of one another, and sharing a profound and inevitable experience as coming out represents….is a matter of safety, comfort and growth. Not ideology.
If one took all the negative pathologies that plague Blacks in America, one could write off blacks as inevitably conflicted and dangerous or at risk the same way gay people are written off for the same reason…and continue JIm Crow or Jim Crow like exclusion. In fact, many DID use discrimination as moral reform against blacks.
Some things never change. Any anti gay group, anti black group, anti Semitic group can find the marginal one of the litter who didn’t find much success or inclusion in their family or society at large. And that straggler will take it out on who rejected them and embrace the false support coming from the opposition.
Randy Thomas couldn’t cut it as a gay man. Tough out the hills and valleys that ultimately will make or break any of us coming up in a prejudiced or marginalized situation.
I’ve done it too, as black, as a woman….as a supporter of gay folks.
I’ll be damned, though…if I let those that think all black women are as the stereotypes like to paint us, are right to believe we’re all like that or if we are…that doesn’t make us bad people, just not ashamed of who we are and how we express our sorrows and joys.
Professed ex gays get on my last black woman’s nerve and just won’t admit they aren’t strong.
They didn’t have the stones to overcome character building struggle and in the mean time, convey to those who would keep us down, that you’re going to be a huge challenge to it and refuse to be down or stay down or validate their defamation.
I find Alan Chambers and Randy Thomas impossible. The ex gays are complaining all the time about feeling that we want them silenced.
Well, not exactly.
What they need to do is just SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.
Not speak for and about the people they don’t want to be and who they defame under cover of having been a gay person.
Thank you Regan.
While I’m at it, I always thoroughly enjoy reading your insights and observations on this site. You have a keen intellect and wonderful way of expressing your self. I think you are a great asset to this discussion group.
paul
I agree with pretty much everything you guys say, but I think claiming that religion can be given up at weill, while technically true, does miss some of the complexity of the religious experience. I think the problem a lot of ex-gays face – and indeed any individual who is trying to leave fundamentalism or evangelicalism- is that while one may gain something from abandoning the old beliefs, one loses something as well, since those old beliefs were usually such a core part of one’s identity. I think that’s the reason why so many ex-fundamentalists, gay or straight, end up having psychological problems after leaving the movement (myself included). There is a sense of certainty about the world that one loses when one abandons fundamentalism, and I think unfortunately it is that sense of certainty that keeps so many closeted gays chained to fundamentalist ideology. Just my opinion – I totally agreed with everything else you said, Regan.
John Weaver
Regan, one think I forgot to mention. I think evangelicalism, unlike other religious groups, is best interpreted in quasi-ethnic terms. Like JW’s, Mormons, and members of certain “cults” (Branch Davidian, etc.), for the members of these religions belief is not about conscious choice, but about indoctrination. That’s why it’s so hard to get out of these belief systems, and its why many of these systems, like Mormonism, fundamentalist Islam, and evangelical Christianity, spread faster (and decay slower) than less heavily indoctrinatory systems, such as mainline Protestantism.
Okay, John… I will concede and I have mentioned it here on this site that identity, whether religious, ethnic, cultural, familial, tribal…ARE powerful. Very. It IS the core of what shapes us, gives us purpose and forms our strongest values, desires and connections. Not only socially, but individually.
However, it bothers me no end, that sexual orientation is misrepresented, miscalculated and so easily dismissed as what it actually is. The closest analogy and aspects that homosexuality has, is to heterosexuality. The gender of attraction being the ONLY difference.
The other aspects that make up a gay person are the aforementioned that shape the multi facets of individual identity and social connection.
But that’s ALSO true of heterosexuals.
This is why even conflicts regarding mixed religious marriages are very real and sticky.
Just as one’s identity on any level should never consign them to inferior status and dehumanizing defamation in a free society, neither should the civilized aspects of sexuality (monogamy, marriage, fidelity) exclude anyone because of their orientation.
The indigenousness and universality of homosexuality is the most obvious reason.
It’s been around since before the most influential organized religions and has no exception in any human culture.
This is why when the opposition discusses homosexuality as if it’s a hobby or fetish, instead of an inversion of heterosexuality, it smells like the dominant group simply making up reasons to maintain gay folks in inferior status.
I don’t mean to lecture anyone hear as if you all don’t know that.
I’m very frustrated at how hard it is to convey something that simple to reason and why Randy Thomas obfuscates.
Maybe “gay ideology” is just code speak for “gay agenda.”
I think the explanation is much simpler than that. Randy is looking for a rhetorical way to keep from admitting he’s gay even though he’s same sex attracted.
By changing the definition of “gay” into an ideology or a “lifestyle” he can then, in good conscience, claim to not be gay because he doesn’t follow this fantasized ideology. This helps him gain credibility as an “ex-gay” who has “been healed” in order to keep selling his theology.
Hiding behind fuzzy language is par for the course for the “ex-gay” movement.
OK, so what he means by “gay ideology” is it’s an ideology used by gays. That’s not actually much of an explanation. It’s like explaining to someone who doesn’t know history that the Russian Revolution was a Revolution of Russians. The listener is still left wondering when this revolution occurred, why it occurred, who was involved (other than Russians), what was it’s significance, where it took place (was it localized or wide-spread within the country), and how it impacted the country and the world. You’ve not explained anything at all. So, the gay ideology is an ideology held by gays. Thank you for that enlightenment Mr Thomas.
Whatever number of The Gays hold to this prophesised “gay ideology”… I know one thing for sure.
We are far out-numbered by heterosexuals who hold to the same ideals. Heterosexuals just like, well, just like Regan. Heterosexual people who want us to be safe, contented, respected and loved as equal citizens of our communities: as should all.
(And if that’s what The Agenda is, I’ll have another large serve please)
Given the numbers ratio, what would that make it… a “heterosexual gay ideology”???
Sometimes Randy strikes me as being so far up his own fundament that all you can see are his legs dangling out. I think Steve S is probably waaaay too close to the truth.
Cripes, I can’t believe I even bothered discussing what Randy thinks.
Randy speaks fluent Gibberish, a language common among religious fundamentalists and ex-gays. Two of Gibberish’s unique characteristics are that it is usually only spoken when discussing certain subjects, and that translation into other languages is nearly impossible. Gibberish is particularly effective for arriving at truthiness.
Most Gibberish speakers are bi-lingual, depending upon the subject matter and possibly the predominant language of the people with whom they are speaking. For example, my own mother speaks both English and Gibberish, but she usually remembers to speak only English to me.
——————————
If Randy stays on his current path I predict that he will end up as a lonely, bitter, and forgotten man.
Right now he is still young, totally immersed in his job, and “getting high” by being somewhat of a pubic figure giving interviews, speeches, and receiving recognition from right-wing Christian/political figures. He is surely getting quite a rush from being invited to political social events and having his picture taken with various right-wing luminaries. All of that will be behind him in his old age.
At some point within Randy’s expected lifetime his side will have lost the anti-gay culture-war. And he will have wasted the best years of his life denying that he is gay. And then all he will have left is his scrapbooks and picture albums.
I think Randy’s point by point explanation was quite good to explain what the ex-gay movement means by “gay ideology.” Inaccurate, of course, but descriptive. I would only simplify his idea, replacing it with
pro-gay ideology is the belief that homosexuality is moral and healthy.
I totally understand Regan. I’ve seen the same thing in evangelical literature as well. All this gay “lifestyle”, “agenda”, “ideology” crap tries to argue that there is a specific codified way of being gay. It drives me nuts too, especially since I have to debate homophobes all the time (one of the priveleges of growing up in an evangelical community).
I guess what I was trying to get across, which I’m sure you understand anyway, is that some people in the evangelical movement (or who have been captured by it) can never make the jump to accepting their sexual orientation. I’ve been on some sites, where people claim that these people are mentally “weak”. People ask why they don’t just give religion up, and I guess for me I don’t think its that simple for people trapped in evangelicalism (though God knows I wish they would just give up on evangelicalism). I pity Randy Thomas, Alan Chambers, Sy Rogers, and company (though I’ve not been able to extend that pity to John Smid) because I believe evangelicalism has totally twisted them up. But there you get into the whole question of the victim turning into a victimizer, and I don’t know how to deal with that.
Under Randy’s “logic” there must be a monolithic Christian ideology because fundamentalist Christians attend church. If they did not have a fixed mindset, there would be no need for churches, just millions of Christian individuals.
What always amuses me about Randy is that he fancies himself a deep thinking intellectual, when his thought process is often as shallow as a coral reef at low tide.
If this were illegal, I’d be in jail for life.
Not illegal, but not good for someone in Randy’s position. On the positive side, many of those who do or have participated in Exodus have expressed the same sentiment in more or less the same fashion.
You know; this site is very confusing to me, if you are born gay..why try to be straight if in your heart; you know you are not.
Gay is looked at as a sin; I find that the real sin is people who lie to themselves and are not able to lead a happy life because of that.
I for one am gay. I’m a strong hold celebate. I don’t party or go to bars; and I won’t partake in drugs.
I’m a very intellegent person; the factor that some of you here pin a specific stereotype onto people is beyond me.
Gay people are not all the same. keep this in mind.
You hate so much; religion is about coming as who you are..not trying to be something you are not at first light.
Sexuality is not something that you can change like a light bulb..if you ‘turn’ straight; you must have been straight to start with.
With that said; if you are truly gay; then why turn your back on yourself just to feel accepted or needed in life..just be who YOU are..not a fake.
This is my view; if you disagree, I won’t feel sorry over it.
More confused that you realize, Brandon 😉
We monitor and discuss the ex-gay movement. And while some who would consider themselves “ex-gay” participate, XGW isn’t part of that movement by any means. You might want to look over some of our archives before commenting further.
I think that I’m not confused with this; this site is clearly just hate against people who are gay. I digress.
Brandon, I honestly don’t think you understand what this site is about. Trust me, the exgays don’t like exgay watch. At all. However, we do let them freely respond in this forum. That’s why you’re probably confused. You won’t find a more committed group of gay activists on the Net. Anywhere.
Allowing our opponents to speak, though, is part of what makes XGW unique. We let them dig their own graves. 🙂
Okay; well then I’m taking it that this site is a battle of views? homophobics vs. gays?
but I guess its confusing mainly that a lot of hate is on here;
I’m not seeing too much positivity pointed towards gay people as a whole.
Most of the comments are really vile and put down gay people.
Well, almost all of the writers here are gay. I can’t say that a majority of commentators are gay but there are many. I personally am gay and so is David. I don’t think what I write is anti-me. I suggest you hang around a bit. If you are having trouble being gay in your community, maybe this online community can provide you some support.
Ahhh…so this discussion is more of a study in a sense?
The only thing I have trouble with in the gay community is there is too much sexual nonsense pinned against us who find an intellegent mind more attracting.
I’m glad I haven’t had to see at least; comments that refer to such phrases as “Dude your hot; I wanna do you..blah blah blah”..
I was just confused at first here because of the terminology on some of the comments.
I’m not anti-me either.
Brandon, you are not alone in this problem. At XGW there is definitely, IMHO, a more “conservative” audience that participates. Please stick around so that others could address this subject with you in the future. And, of course, you should never feel pressured to do anything you oppose or don’t feel comfortable with.
Thank you Emily; I’m glad to see support from you so far. I will stick around, I am interested in what this forum has to offer and what kinds of discussions are there to be debated as well.
Brandon, I guess I’m a bit confused about your statements as well.
You say:
This really doesn’t make any sense given the content of the site – we certainly aren’t anti-gay by any stretch. Where do you see “vile comments that put down gay people?”
Then you say:
In this you make your own stereotypical generalizations about gay people, which is what you accused us of before. How exactly do you define “sexual nonsense?” I’m not quite certain of where you are coming from, but again I hope you will read more of our previous posts before making any more assumptions. That should help should you decide to participate further.
If, for instance, you are unaware of the ex-gay movement, most of what we discuss will be rather confusing at first.
For the record, I’m a totally liberal ex-Baptist. I am in a committed 24 year marriage to my partner and we just wrote and performed in a musical about our gay marriage.
This site is like a newswatch of religious gay opponents.
It monitors the activities of “exgay” organizations and holds them responsible for their words and their actions by discussing them openly, and allowing them to respond.
There’s not really a political agenda, but the people who run the site are DECIDEDLY pro-gay. But they also try to avoid hardcore basing of exgay ministries. They feel it’s enough to hold a light up to their activities and comment on what they see.
The boards are open, so people who are from the “exgay” world may comment in response, and the board tries to be fair to everyone, no matter if they’re pro-gay or anti-gay.
So, if you see a post that is “anti-gay,” it’s because as long as this person isn’t abusive, they are free express their opinion. They are also compelled to answer questions. It can be quite illuminating.
I can understand I suppose Steve. Thank you for your insight; I am starting to understand this site a little better now.
I wasn’t sure where to begin; plus I saw a lot of religious attributes on the home page; so I guess my assumptions were irrelevant to this discussion; but I plan to take more insight into further educating myself on the discussion and the views of people in this forum.
Thanks for the cogent explanation, Steve 😉
And at the risk of delving into the outskirts of some “sexual nonsense,” you are also a classy guy with devilish good looks!
We really need an open forum this week.
Scratch out the “sexual nonsense” for yourself; that is if you disagree..I know I might come off at being hypocritical with that line prior to my last few comments.
But I am talking more of in a sense of those who choose to act in that manner; not the population in general. I stand corrected for mistakenly writing that last comment wrongly.
Sorry.
Feel free to lurk or jump in Brandon. Our rules are basic — maintain a civil atmosphere even during strong disagreements. Don’t ridicule the faith of another, though you can certainly disagree with it all you like. And if you make claims of fact that are not common or obvious, back them up with a reference to a reliable, authoritative source.
IOW, if one is going to say that “90% of gay men had week fathers” we would expect a source so we can weigh the validity of the statement. That prevents us from debating over false information. We also try to keep the environment work safe as much as possible, so no unnecessary adult language. Enjoy your stay 😉
Brandon, just to continue the thought, the “exgay” world — and I use quotes because I don’t actually believe that anyone can or should try to change their orientation — is a very insular society with its own language and definitions.
For instance, “exgay” really means “choosing not to ACT ‘gay'” anymore even though it SOUNDS like they’re saying they’ve become heterosexual. They are aware that they have changed the meaning of the word gay (as a thing you do as opposed to a thing you are), and IMO they use this deceptive language to ensnare people from outside this cultural bubble.
In their workshops and camps and retreats and homes, few of whom are connected to the other, they try to get the gay out of you through various behavioral models: enforced celibacy, discouraging fashionable clothing, discouraging music that “might” sound too gay, and encouraging you to end your relationships with your gay friends.
IOW, it’s like a dry tank for a drunk where the goal is to convince you to become ungay, whatever that might mean.
Most of the people who teach these things are well meaning. They are IMO the victims of misinformation and bad religion — not unlike the majority of the population of the United States. 🙂
I’d rather have a rational, informed discussion than the typical flame wars this topic elicits.
Fair enough for me. I’m sure there will be a lot of different views to choose from as far as jumping in.
But I look forward to going through these ideas and leaving my thoughts.
Just to rant for a second; I am using Safari and its showing red lines underneath my MySpace link in the website box.
Its definitely spelled correctly just put together.
Anyways…
Very well then; I can agree. I’ve seen a lot of the same aspects come into play in the years of my even being who I truly am.
I personally find that sometimes bad religious views can be quite the amusement seeing how lots of times those very same people do things that forfeit there views against gay individuals.
Brandon, there are lots and lots of sites on the Net where we, as gay-supportive persons, can congregate and give ourselves self reinforcement without having the religious right looking over our shoulders. Where we can give each other support and encouragement, places like PFLAG or Youth Guardian Services, for instance.
I would say this is a place for people who are more secure in their beliefs about themselves given the fact that all sides get a fair hearing.
Steve Schalchlin:
The most damaging element of all in that formula you mentioned Steve, in trying to make someone “ungay,” is that they throw in the religious aspect into it. The person is expected to be “dehomofied” so they can be acceptable to God. It is a very twisted and distorted understanding of the expectations what a Divine Being has of its creation in an institutionalized religious setting. It is a primitive approach to religion, and it is sad to see that, despite humanity’s progress since we evolved out of the cave, there are still those who cling to tribal mentality when it comes to the question of religion.