As XGW reported a few days ago, Stephen Black, director of Exodus charter member First Stone Ministries, appeared at the recent rally in support of Oklahoma Representative Sally Kern. The rally was orchestrated by fifty or so churches and assorted ministries who seem to have latched on to Kern as a sort of patron saint in their crusade against the dreaded “homosexual agenda.”
Black was there to lend his support as can be seen in the video below. The second clip is shorter and contains most of Blacks remarks of support, while the first is a general resume of his life, with an emphasis on “overcoming homosexuality.”
To date, Exodus International has not provided an official response to Kern’s statements, despite our request early in the controversy. To that we received a “no comment” from Exodus president Alan Chambers.
If you would like to share any personal experience you have had with Stephen Black and First Stone Ministries, good or bad, please contact XGW at david@exgaywatch.com. All communication will be held in strict confidence.
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Does that mean you’ll beleive anythign someone has to say?
I hope that doesnt mean that it will be a secret between the person and ex-gay watch administrators.
Maybe a “no comment” response from Alan Chambers means he’s trying to live up to his word that he will “no longer be involved in politics.” Giving an opinion on this political situation would be involving one’s self in politics.
That thought had occurred to me early on, but I rather doubt it now. First, it doesn’t appear to really fit Alan’s admittedly vague definition of politics or policy matters. Also, I suspect if that were the case, he would use that as the out, i.e. “following our recent decision to avoid political matters, Exodus has no comment.” In any event, the entry of Exodus into the equation through Stephen Black would negate that.
Considering how central this issue is to Exodus’ stated mission, I can’t imagine their not making some sort of statement. My best guess is that Alan essentially agrees with Kern and does not know how to say that without getting into trouble. As I said in my earlier post on this, Alan has made his own disappointing statements about the “homosexual agenda.”
The entire thing is very sad.
Emily — we get what you’re saying but…
Alan didn’t just say “he” would cease involvement in “politics”. He spoke as the President of Exodus, and about the organisation he claims to be leading.
He said Exodus would cease involvement. He said Exodus would focus on ministry. He said this was due to concerns that “[Exodus] might be alienating people”. And this was presented as a change at policy level by Exodus.
Yet, here we are, a a few short weeks later: — a perfect occassion of awful bigotry by a public official, and Exodus has it’s name stamped all over support for that bigot.
This was the test we needed, and both Exodus and Chambers have been found wanting.
> Stephen Black should have been told to cease involvement in activities contrary to Exodus’ purposes, and told he would be disenfrancised if he failed to do that.
> Chambers, speaking as Exodus President, should have issued a statement to the effect that Black’s ministry was under suspension pending the outcome of an immediate review.
> Chambers, again speaking as Exodus President, should have stated that the mistreatment of, or the expression of animosity toward, gay men and women was contrary to the work of Exodus (contrary, if only for the reason of being counter-productive.)
An authentic organisation would have squashed Stephen Black — or anyone else — flatter than a bedbug if they had actually worked against the policy direction of the organisation and in such a blatant way
It’s called corporate governance, and such times do test whether the organisation is genuine; or a fake. You either act against rogue elements, swiftly, or are exposed as an apologist for such elements. Is it policy, or meaningless PR drivel?
(try and imagine in what way and how rapidly McDonald’s Corp would respond if a franchisee or an employee appeared at a KKK rally… in uniform).
Clearly, we may conclude that Exodus doesn’t have any such policy (new) direction… regardless of whatever comes out of either side of it’s Presidential mouth.
We initially said Chambers’ announcment was “hogwash”. And here’s the proof.
This may be my Orthodox Catholicism talking, but why do all these ministries look so cult like? I just went to the website for First Stone Ministries and after reading it I was wondering where their recipe for Kool Aide was.
Alan, I suspect Timothy Kincaid and I could both identify heavily with that comment. From my own experience, this comes more frequently from the charismatic movement. The initial red flag is the intensity of a central figure – lots of ego and, well charisma. They are often very likable to those around them, but when you have found your way out of that stuff you tend to smell it pretty quickly.
Why yes, Joel, we are going to believe anything they say, then keep it just between us. We find that is so much better than taking the time to write about it and share what we find.
Did I say either of those things? If someone has information which can be verified, we will report on it. If the person wants to go on record, fine, but unless they say otherwise, and even then only if we are able to substantiate the claims, communications are held in confidence.
This is a rather common arrangement, it’s called a tip. Sometimes, they are even anonymous – gasp! The important thing is whether we find the facts to back it up 😉
Alan S: who is “wondering where their recipe for Kool Aide was”
They have a deal with Opus Dei to airfreight overnight when/where it’s required. Shipped in boxes marked “Cilices: 4 dozen” to avoid causing any suspicion at customs.
Eye of the beholder — only the unfamiliar seems weird 🙂
This is turning in some pretty interesting commentaries. Just want to subscribe to make sure I do not miss out. : )
Grantdale:
yes, Opus Dei is a Catholic cult if that is what you are trying to infer. I totally agree. Which is why I think Christians, gay and straight, need to wake up and smell the coffee. Our churches are being taken over by fundamentalist – all denominations are under attack. And the tall tell signs are fear and hate.
Stephen Black stands by her, even though he tells me he personally would not have used Kern’s “parallel”. He might have chosen a different analogy than terrorism.
He points out that Kern was not talking about gay people — who she’s really loves deeply — just the “gay agenda” of the “hate-filled homosexuals”. Black feels that “cancer” would have been a better analogy.
Michael
And that of course makes ALL the difference. Now what does one do with cancer? One tries to destroy it, to cut it out of the body…. now I would like to know how exactly do Black and Kern intend to “cure” this cancer? Goebbeles called Jews a cancer in the body of society and now we all should believe that it was a statement of love?
I feel so loved. As a gay man, as person worse than terrorists, a cancer cell that seeks to destroy US. There is no limit in their hate and empty declaratiopns of “love” will not change that.
A lot of people has said they “love” gay people just hate what we do. What is never mentioned (or rarely mentioned) is what kind of love they are talking about, and who are they modeling.
The immediate response to that is always “what the Bible says” but as an Orthodox Catholic I don’t see how that is possible since there are conflicting concepts within the pages of scripture. What I can accept is “love” when it refers to the love Christ had, gave, exemplified, and taught (as in the “how to”). I can also accept how St. Paul magnified, and simplified at the same time, the kind of love we receive from God and that it is the same love we are to have for others. That point being made, I don’t see how Sally Kern, or those like her, can truly say they “love” me, or any other gay person for that matter, since the “love” they demonstrate is not the love found in Christ and taught by his apostles. I am not saying this because she is Protestant, as the RCC is filled with unChristian love towards gays as well, but I have serious doubts that she “loves” gay people.
And again, what is the “gay agenda?” I never got a copy of it. When I came out, I didn’t get an autographed copy of the agenda. The only time I hear “gay agenda” is when ex-gay ministries mention it. If there is a gay agenda I would say it would be this:
that we be treated equally, no better, no worse, than any other person, and that we have the right to decide with whom we want to spend the rest of our lives with in regards to having a monogomous relationship. The right to marry whom we want, and the right to divorce if we unfortunately have to. That we have the right to live in a world without being afraid of being harrassed, injured, insulted, beaten, or killed because of who we are.
Until the Fundamentalist Christians (not just Protestants but Orthodox, Catholic included), and the Fundamentalist extemists in other religions as well, give up their obsession with hate, fear, and control, they will never understand the evil and harm they have done to the gay community, to themselves, to the Church, and to the world.
“Hate the sin, love the sinner…”
It’s all so simple actually; it’s like, “I am not shooting at you, I am shooting at your uniform [and what it represents].”
“Sorry I got blood all over it, and a bit of brains…
Ooopsie! My bad.”
Good one Sharon B!
Talk about SPIN in defense of Kern and MORE denegration of gay people.
This is why, when I posited the question how anyone who is ex gay can EFFECTIVELY defend a gay person to Throckmorton and his ilk…they have NEVER answered it.
Or acknowledged what the answer would mean.
And as we see, Exodus is using an ex gay as a DEFENSE of what Sally Kerns said and meant.
Ex gays should explain how it is that they ARE used as a defense of anti gay and outright homophobic opinions and public policy.
However, as you have surely noted, Throckmorton nor any other avowed ex sexual or ex gay answers that or feels any obligation to.
Yet…if we were EVER to take Throckmorton’s proposal on responding to the DOS seriously, I think OTHER public issues would have to be addressed.
The difference between PFLAG and Exodus’s outreach AND the response to them points out specifically why ex gays are useless (if not damaging) in defending gay equality (if they defend it at all).
1. No one committed to anti gay policies will trust that an ex gay is fully committed to the anti gay cause if they defend gay people. Recidivism being likely.
2. And gay people rightly, feel betrayed because there is little political clout to begin with.
And ex gays hate not being trusted. Trust is their bread and butter. But it’s also important to note who ex gays want to trust them MORE.
Since gay people are already at the bottom rung of public policy changes and support…I think it’s safe to say which side of the bread ex gays really care about.
That’s what I mean by unflattering terms with which to describe what ex gays tend to do, whether it’s stated or not.
Or what their lives are representative of in the bigger scheme.
The denial is deep….at the real damage done. And it’s bothered me for a while what it was and what it reminds me of.
Truthfully?
It reminds me of the denial criminals go into. Sometimes thieves or adulterers like to think that they aren’t hurting someone if they don’t really see or know what they are doing or that they deserve to have the things they want, no matter WHAT happens.
It’s not about feeling that way alone. But feeling that way because of the STAKES involved.
It’s the nature of who is most vulnerable to the ex gay industry. Such as thieves who steal from the poor. Or adulterers who cheat as their spouse might be ill or unemployed.
There is a particular person that the ex gay is most attracted and attractive to. There is a predatory nature to what they do and denial that such predation has victims and profound consequences that are mostly negative.
Especially when it comes to public policy and public education and young people.
And essentially, there is no need for public policy to change to accomodate ex gays. It already does.
That’s why the assertions that ex gays are silenced or not able to participate in policy or are denied certain rights is a patent kind of lie.
Sally Kern is a policy and law maker. And her response to Exodus as opposed to PFLAG shows just how ex gay duplicity can be hurtful to the most vulnerable.
Don’t piss from the roof and call it rain, ya know?
grantdale said…
Regan DuCasse said…
^Good point! -Alienate gay souls-bound to a fate of eternal hell, in favor of supporting, or at least remaining silent on anti-gay rhetoric and anti-gay political policy.
Along with the belief in this “just” God who created an eternal hell to punish temporal sins, they must also believe that their consciences will be wiped clean of any sense of responsibility for all the gay souls they are directly responsible for having eternally damned.
Like with Sharon’s “hate the sin, love the sinner” analogy with the uniform, their hatred lies in “separating” our sexuality from our humanity. It’s like putting a blindfold on every time you feel light running a red light.
“But your honor, you can’t possibly blame me for his death, I couldn’t “see” him.”
Their whole “I don’t hate homosexuals, I just hate the homosexual agenda” song and dance is based on the same principle.
“I don’t hate homosexuals, I just hate the agenda to improve the lives of homosexuals.”
They love their own idea that homosexuals are heterosexuals in disguise, and can’t seem to tell the difference. On a practical note, my parents are the same way. They’re not anti-gay per se, but they harm me with supposed good intentions and then say things like “We’re just doing what we think will make you happy.”
Well no, actually, you were just doing what would make you happy when it comes to your thoughts about me.
They can’t tell the difference either. The difference between loving someone, and the thoughts one has about their love for someone.
Stephen Black tells me that the tens of thousands of hate letters (and numerous death threats) Kern has recieved pretty much prove that we are what he says we are.
He tells me he fears that the next step from us with be promoting divorce, abusing children and murdering Christians. I think he is genuinely terrified.
Stephen’s fears make me wonder: Have we, as gays and gay-friendly people, done all we can to soothe the homophobia? I ask, because, like Stephen Black, they seem to really fear us and despise us.
Have we done enough to demonstrate that we cannot (should not) be compared to “cancer” or “terrorists? Have we done enough to assure them that we mean them no harm?
Have we done enough to reassure them that we do not want to molest, indoctrinate or recruit their kids? Have we done enough to calm their fears that we want to infiltrate and destroy their famillies?
Have we done enough to reassure them that we do not want to jail them or outlaw their faith? — as though we all had signed a “gay agenda contract” to systematically dismantle Christianity? Have we done enough to show that many of us are Christian, too?
Have we done enough to show that very few of us are extremists, hatemongers or anti-Christian? Have we done enough to show them that we love our country and respect free speech and the free exercise of religion?
Have we done enough? Or is their homophobia so irrational and so deeply ingrained that it is beyond hope?
What about this report saying that she exaggerated and that none of the emails are threats, but fall more into the category of “I hope you die” rather than threats?
And Michael, gays are not responsible for homophobia. The Onus is not on us to be appealing and neutered so they don’t feel threatened, the Onus is on them to prove that we’re threatening, that we’re a “cancer” — something they cannot prove because it is not true.
I’m sorry, but answering these ridiculous claims, “doing enough to show ____” merely gives credibility to their rants. These are people who say that McDonald’s hates their family just because McD got involved in the LGBT Chamber of Commerce. Our very EXISTENCE is the threat, the claims and accusations are merely just a rationalization.
Jason: I am not talking about appeasing them or “neutering” us. I am just wondering if they have heard more moderate and rational gay voices…
Okay, I understand you now, but for myself I’m wondering if they bother to look for moderate and rational gay voices at all? And if presented with them, would they actually listen?
How funny. The authorities weren’t able to identify any of those tens of thousands of death threats. But that doesn’t stop Kern and Black from believing they are there.
Why? Is it because we haven’t done enough?
Nope. It’s because their hearts are full of hatred and their eyes are blinded to the truth. They fear and hate us not for what we’ve done but for whom they have convinced themselves that we are.
Kern and Black will never, ever, come to see gay people as they are. They don’t want to. It would require them to evaluate their own lives and the vile things they have said and done.
And that they must avoid at all cost.
Michael,
I think there are some people who are predisposed to not ‘hearing.’ In other words, I think they have their ears plugged and their backs turned. I don’t think they want to get their understanding of gays by actually knowing and understanding a cross section of the gay community. Instead, they have an idea of what gay is, and they look for people to fit their conclusion. That would be kind of like us getting our understanding of Christianity by listening to people like Kern or Black. Ms. Kern and Mr. Black don’t want to know the truth, they want their beliefs validated.
Funny, like seems to attract like. Ms. Kern is obnoxious and offensive, then wonders when she attracts a defensive response? “You reap what you sow?”
Michael:
RE: “Have we done enough? Or is their homophobia so irrational and so deeply ingrained that it is beyond hope?”
Short answer, YES!
THEY are in control of this country and occupy the clear majority and all centers of power. THEIRS is the power to oppress and crush.
They ask, while they have their heel on our necks, if we are going to hurt them?
The more cynical among them know they are in no danger and are using fear as a tactic to oppress us and preserve their privilege. The others are projecting their own hatefulness or expressing paranoia.
I thought that “perfect love casts out all fear” was supposed to be the Christian axiom.
Guess that says it all.
Michael,
They have heard the voices. But they decide to believe either
A: that moderate and rational gay voices are just a tiny minority of gay people and that the vast majority are evil and seeking to destroy Christianity; or,
B: that there are two types of gay people, average good folk (who are deluded by Satan) and evil activists who are seeking to destroy Christianity. Oh, and anyone who seeks equality or dignity for gay people is an evil activist by definition.
Michael, as much as I like and respect you, sometimes I suspect that you see the world from viewpoint B. You often like to differentiate yourself from those hedonistic gay activists out there and show yourself as different.
But I fear you have bought into some of the rhetoric. Because, Michael, the “radical gay activist” is mostly a myth.
Yes, there are some extremists. And some claim to be leaders in the community. And some, such as NGLTF, are even given a microphone from time to time.
But if you look at those who are actually working for our equality you will find that they are pretty much indistinguishable from you. Many have families and children, attend church or synagogue, and live very ordinary lives. Very few are remotely “radical” at all.
I know it’s important to show a respectable face to those who oppose us. But we already do. You don’t have to make claims of being MORE respectable.
The fact that anti-gays think our leaders are extremists has nothing to do with our leaders and everything to do with the desire of anti-gays to see them that way. But please don’t let their skewed view distort your own perception.
I hope you aren’t offended by this. I do love and respect you and know that you sincerely desire to serve God and help your fellow man. But please give the rest of us the careful consideration that you would with that anti-gays give to you.
Timothy:
I am sorry. I think I may have given the wrong impression! My post was intended to be rhetorical — and somewhat tongue-in-cheek. When I asked “have we done enough?” I only hoped to stimulate some conversation. I am definitely not “type B”
Heaven forbid!!!I don’t believe, as “Type B” folks do, that “there are two types of gay people, average good folk (who are deluded by Satan) and evil activists who are seeking to destroy Christianity”. Nor do I believe that “anyone who seeks equality or dignity for gay people is an evil activist by definition.”
And I do not mean to differentiate myself from the “evil hedonists.” Heck, I am as “hedonistic” as anyone else. I love pleasure — music, food, the arts, the great outdoors, good sex, etc. Ask anyone who really knows me!
Finally, I completely agree with you that: “If you look at those who are actually working for our equality you will find that they are pretty much indistinguishable from you. Many have families and children, attend church or synagogue, and live very ordinary lives. Very few are remotely “radical” at all.
I do NOT believe that “moderate and rational gay voices are just a tiny minority of gay people and that the vast majority are evil and seeking to destroy Christianity.” I am just wondering where this irrational fear and hatred comes from.
Personally, I think we HAVE done enough — and put up with enough. I was just wondering if we could do more. Maybe not… I keep hoping there is some way to build a bridge between “them” and “us”…
One day at a time, one person at a time, on the personal, real, every-day level. Speeches are for political rallies. The political is personal, and the personal is political. We won’t win this through grandstanding, we’ll win this through living our lives as ourselves, Out, proud, and just plain human. I think we’ll win this through our families, but that’s just my theory.
Mr. Bussee, you might have been treading on the blame-the-victim side a bit?
This “They” versus “Us” mentality is so trite and so are the generalizations and stereotyping. Most, if not all, of my gay associates are people who trying to make a go of it in this $4.00/gal gasoline and diminishing benefits and do not care one iota about what the Christians say or do in their respective Churches. I do not know of any satan-worshipping gays wringing their hands in delight in making fanatical Christians fear for their wellbeing. On the contrary, most of the gays I know pity our oppressors. I know some relish the opportunity to point out the sanctimonious and the self-righteous. But, most of us are sitting in our cubicles at work and thinking why does my co-worker over the short wall here get more benefits simply because he is hetero and married. We want the same options and we are not threatening to take any of their benefits away…only to demand equality.
The feigned persecution complex is rampant here. I don’t believe Kern/Black are shivering in their boots with fear at all. They’re milking this to the fullest extent only because they couldn’t deny the hate-filled words used (fortunately caught thanks to modern digital technologies). I pity their need to find such justification and rationalizations for making blatant hate-speech. It’s a sign of their character and, frankly, I think we should remember to scratch them off our Christmas card list this year.
Good one Michael!
Often I’ve tried to bring people to the reality of the supposed ‘homosexual menace’ in practical and real ways.
For example: on an evening stroll, would Sally Kern feel more threatened by a gay couple with their arms around each other approaoching her…or two men in baggy clothes looking at her hard and squinty eyed?
Would she feel the same if she saw a gay couple approaching someone at an ATM, a liquor store?
In the vast array of professions and hobbies, church going and child rearing….gay folks are a respectable and non threatening presence.
Drive by shootings, domestic violence that massacres whole families….the straight folks corner the market.
Children living in poverty or the abuse of animals….straight folks win again.
I find this victim mentality a serious abuse of those that truly ARE victims of anti gay threat and violence.
Sally Kern, nor any authority that investigated found any credible threat to her, nor her family or office.
The biggest threat she faces is being voted out of office for her own foot in mouth disease.
For Black or Exodus to indulge this non happening makes them all look like the worst kinds of cowards.
The shooting of Lawrence King is a VERY fresh memory. Even when a CHILD who is gay is MURDERED, the gay community responds with calls for political action, rallies and appeals to their representatives regarding hate crimes and anti discrimination laws.
How fortunate for all those like Sally Kern that responding IN KIND to the sorts of violence that render a day in school unsafe for any child, let alone a gay one, doesn’t happen.
The Pink Pistols don’t even get together and plot any drive bys of the perpetrators and wait patiently while the courts and other parts of the legal system sort out the crime.
Gay people go ABOVE and BEYOND compassionate and patient responses to grievances and physical threat.
It’s simply not appreciated and the perception of threat is hijacked by the likes of Kern and BLack, further bearing false witness that gay people EVER threatened them at all.
They disgust me. They have so little respect for the Lawrence Kings of our country, or even the victims of the OKC bombing.
Gay folks have done MORE than enough to be non threatening, patient and compassionate.
But just like they are finding out the folly of dismissing competent gay soldiers when the military can’t afford to lose any soldiers arbitrarily, perhaps Kern will appreciate the weight of her words if she’s ever confronted by gang members, and armed robber or rapist…none of who are not the least bit likely to be gay.
Mores the point, when she whistles for help, funding and votes…she’d better not come looking for members of the gay community to support HER.
Michael
I am overjoyed to be wrong!!
I’m very glad I misunderstood you and agree with everything you just commented.
Timothy, I am glad we clear that one up (grin). Never accuse me of not being a hedonist — I am definitely a “Toys ‘R Us” Kid”! (Jingle playing in background…)
Cowboy asked “Mr. Bussee, you might have been treading on the blame-the-victim side a bit?” God, I hope not. I certainly don’t blame myself for the childhood bullying and beatings. I don’t blame myself for getting fired from two jobs , just for being gay.
And I certainly don’t blame myself for being beaten and stabbed — and watching my best friend, Jeffery Owens, being beaten and stabbed to death as they yelled “faggot” at both of us.
I blame those who would use their public office or their pulpit to stir up such anti-gay feelings — those “leaders” who would feed the fear and hatred that leads to such injustice and violence (while claiming to “love” us).
I blame anyone who might influence a gang of angry and confused young adults (like the ones who murdered Jeffery) to feel justified that they were somehow doing society a favor.
A very brief note to simply say, that those who are seeking and willing to listen, have ample moderate voices to encounter and engage. I have found this to be true and am grateful for such opportunities.
My prayer is that by poking my head up once in a while, that I might represent a moderate voices on the other end of this continuum that continues to try to speak boldly for just and respectful treatment of all people touched by the glbt community. I am saddened to hear of yet another “adventure in missing the point”.