Beyond Ex-Gay co-founder Peterson Toscano found himself on a broadcast radio show yesterday with a host, another guest and all but one caller holding staunchly anti-gay positions. His responses were responsive and calm in the face of some really vile commentary.
In one particularly egregious statement, the host suggested the real reason those who protested Love Won Out in Memphis did so was because the available population of men with whom to have sex would be reduced if more gay men were “turned straight.”
If you have ever had trouble keeping your cool when asked such things, you really should listen to this clip [mp3]. It’s fairly long and definitely not easy listening, but it’s an excellent example of how to debate such issues, especially in unfriendly situations.
Listen here.
Good grief. The host is like a caricature of himself. He just digs and digs. What was your relationship like with your father? (It was good. Damn.) Were you ever molested by a Catholic priest? (Never. Damn.) Talk about grasping at straws.
I guess you didn’t make it to the point where the host suggests a deliverance (!) program. No, I’m not kidding, and I’m only at 42:24.
I can believe it. The host is pretty extreme even by fundamentalist standards. I see from his website he refers to himself as “Chief Economist”, and appears to be peddling the bizarre charismatic teaching (advanced notoriously by health-and-wealth preacher John Avanzini) that the end times are going to see the transfer of the world’s wealth into the hands of Christians.
Anyway, I’m about two thirds of the way in and the ignorance is cringeworthy. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. They’re caricatures of themselves, spouting the most embarrassing cliches with no hint of irony. (“Adam and Steve”, anyone?)
Kudos to Peterson for having enduring this with such grace!
This is so ridiculous it’s hilarious. I paraphrase:
I’m finding it difficult to get angry over some of this. Laughter seems more appropriate!
I sympathize with Toscano, I’m betting he didn’t quite realize what he was getting into; so kudos to you Peterson!
But I have to say that I would have walked out about the time the host started asserting that I chose to be homosexual at some point, or maybe when he asked if I had been molested or at least by the time he started making bizarre claims about the Old and New Testament.
I mean let’s be honest with ourselves, when we talk about educating people we’re not talking about this host or his viewers; and that’s because education requires that the individual being educated be willing to consider new facts and change their view based on those facts. These men are fundamentalists, and at the core of fundamentalist theology is the idea that all truth has been handed down by God through the Bible, and that truth is never changing; regardless of the facts.
So this leaves me with a question, why do we entertain these people? Why not ignore them and let society shun them as it becomes more open and accepting of GLBT people, until finally one day their opinions will be viewed in much the same way racist diatribes are viewed today.
Dear God! I just listened to the first minute and already want to turn it off! “Barack ‘Hussein’ Obama Jr.”? I already know where this is headed.
Peterson,
I really felt inspired listening to you. I really appreciated how you empathized with their beliefs but stayed firm to your own. Kudos! I could really hear in their voices the need to hold on to their previous views. I could the hear the pain that came up for them when they were challenged. I was shocked at the response when you suggested that the mother whose son was ex-gay had misunderstood the scripture of Romans 1.
Mostly, I feel confident that if even one young gay kid heard you, it mattered to him!
Much love,
Joe
GS Kolbjorn, “Hussein” is part of Obama’s name. It is in fact, a very common name in the Arab-speaking world.
but you might be on to something, b/c nobody else seems to feel inclined to mention “hussein.”
It does seem more than a bit odd that someone who would appear to think that his show was somehow an arena for something resembling gladiatorial combat in which he was somehow a lion and a Christian at the same time, would not notice that he had imploded his own metaphor.
I listened to the mp3 broadcast. Basically, it is the same argument that most of us are familiar with. Peterson, thank you for being firm in your faith.
Listening to the argument, it just makes me glad I am an Orthodox Catholic (although I haveissues with the Roman Church but I won’t go in to that here). But it is so sad to hear these people who limit God to a book. And they limit their faith to a book as well. I love what Peterson said when asked if he believed if the Bible was the innerant word of God. “I believe in God.”
Instead of calling him “a witness for Christ” they kept insisting of calling Peterson a “gay activist.” That got my goat.
The host Dr. Larry Bates gets mad when Peterson corrects him on the Sodom story. That is a typical reaction to those who adore the Bible. They get very upset if they are questioned or corrected. Peterson, you held your own. I am glad you would not back down from what you were trying to say. Why would a Christian not be shocked at Lot’s decision to sacrifice his daughters to the crowd. What kind of father is that? Is that what fathers should do then? If someone breaks in your house, hand over your virgin daughters to them? Incredible that the host didn’t at least acknowledge that Lot’s behavior was against God’s justice.
But, just as Lot, so too do these adores of the Bible justify their own actions. The end justifies the means.
Dr. Larry Bates is very biased on his terminology calling Peterson a “gay activist” and saying that Love Won Out is just trying to get homosexuals “out of the homosexual lifestyle.”
The pastor keeps mentioning Scripture first and Christ second. As a Christian that irritates me as well.
“The knowledge of our truth makes us free” … bull. The truth – which is God, God is truth, makes us free.
“You cannot free a slave who loves his chains.” How insulting.
Peterson, thank you for doing what you do. May God always be with you.
I also got confused by some of the scriptural “proofs” the radio hosts brought up. Peterson is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT when he says that the Levitical laws DO NOT condemn female homosexual activity. The only place in the entire Jewish Halakha where lesbian activity is mentioned is in one of Maimonides’ commentaries about how lesbian activity is “impure.”
But Christians do not include Maimonides and the Oral Torah in their Canon, so that shouldn’t matter. AND, if the radio host is adamant in his belief that no New Testament law can be truthful without an Old Testament foundation, lesbian activity should be warmly embraced by the Christian church! paul’s condemnation of lesbian activity would have no Holy basis.
How arrogant, foolish, hateful, and obnoxious did he seem when he said “men with men, women with women” “let’s not parse words here” while trying to prove that Leviticus condemned all homosexual activity – because if he takes the Bible at absolute literal face value, and truly does not parse words, ONLY MALE homosexual activities are forbidden by Leviticus. That is what the Hebrew says, and that is how all Jews read it. He should have a Torah study session with me and learn a thing or two.
It also astounded and enraged me that they brought up all those Cameron statistics to justify how “awful” the “homosexual lifestyle” is. News flash: Lesbians have the lowest rate of STD transmission! And we’re known for being stereotypically monogamous. (First Date Moving Van, anyone?)
Peterson, the Shechinah (Divine Spirit) was truly upon you in this encounter. That the opposition became angry and frustrated only proved this further. You spoke with the voice I liken to a modern navi – a prophet who speaks with a message for their generation.
I also wish to clarify my definition of a prophet in this context – see this page for the definition. I’m speaking from a Jewish tradition of how prophets are defined.
Emily:
I couldn’t have said it better. It takes a very strong person of faith to do what he did which is go back to a place he was at that spiritually hurt him and try to send a message that God is love.
Yes. I think all Christians need to. I think we need to have a basic understanding of Biblical Hebraic language (and Greek and Latin as well). Relying soley on translators can be devistating if one relies on bad translations from bad translators. I am always amazed at Christians whose sole source is the Bible and how ignorant they are of the original languages. I mean, for example, when I was studying Shakespeare and Bede in my literature classes in the university, we HAD to be taught a basic understanding of the English language from those time periods in order to appreciate and understand the text. If the Bible is to be accessible to all, then why is the basic knowledge to understand it not?
When I once suggested to a fundamentalist Christian that they study the Torah with Jews in order to understand Hebrew Scripture law and its application, the response was: “Well, they got it wrong about Christ being the Messiah so they are probably wrong on Old Testament law too”.
They don’t want to learn from Jews; they want to turn Jews into fundamentalist Christians. People generally don’t want to be taught by those they have decided need conversion.
Unfortunately, toujoursdan, you are correct. I’m afraid that a Christian who would study Torah in depth with me or with a rabbi would not like what they learn. But in this case, I would teach simply about anti-gay passages in question – nothing else. The hosts mocked Peterson when he said to study the Koine Greek. They were not loving at all.
I thought that Peterson Toscano performance was brilliant on this show. I only wish that I could explain my experiences with exgay-counseling and Exodus as well as he does. I’m impressed that he was able to maintain his faith through all of this. I gave up my faith, have never missed it, and will never go back. Good job Peterson Toscano!!
Roland, thank you so much for your words. This weekend in Memphis we held many events including the Beyond Ex-Gay Mid-South Regional Gathering. There we worked to create a safe space for ex-gay survivors. bXg is not a Christian group or a faith-based group. We are friendly to folks with faith, without faith, and with complicated faith.
One thing I made clear is that some of us no longer adhere to the faith we followed when we were ex-gay. Some have joined other types of faith communities (I am now Quaker) or are not part of any. Some have maintained a personal spirituality we rarely discuss. Some have branched out to explore spirituality that was once considered taboo.
I stressed that we need to see that coming out of the ex-gay movement without our faith can be a healthy and successful outcome. Too often gay Christians can make ex-gay survivors who are no longer Christians to feel like double failures.
Part of the process of deconstructing and unpacking our ex-gay experiences requires looking at our faith, the assumptions we have held about faith and God, the myths based in fear that only served to deepen shame and keep us captive to unhealthy anti-gay church environments.
Thank you all for the affirming words above. I really don’t know how I endured those two hours myself, but I did have some great help in preparation thanks to Jim Burroway of Box Turtle Bulletin, Christine Bakke, the co-founder of Beyond Ex-Gay, some folks at GLAAD, and Kristi Estes, a Memphis Quaker who walked with me throughout the whole weekend and also sat in the lobby of the radio station holding me in the Light the whole time.
The Memphis weekend was a huge success on many fronts. Bruce Garrett posted so photos and wrote about the weekend over at his blog. He shares some of what happened in front of Love Won Out and captured images of some of the signs we held up that seemed to provoke the radio host so much.
Wow, Peterson, that entire exchange was amazing. Thank you for being such an amazing example of a gay Christian for the kind of audience that Dr Larry Bates most likely attracts. On top of always being kind and respectful of every opposing viewpoint presented to you, I was amazed by your ability to choose your battles so effectively; the times you chose to express disagreement were effective, well reasoned, and best of all, you had so many great “gotcha!” moments with your fellow guest and with the callers. Listening to this was a real treat.
To anyone else who listened, who else noticed just how many times the pastor and the host changed arguments/strategies after Peterson started responding to the argument better than they’d have liked? “Now hold on, let’s step back”, “now wait just a minute, I’d like to bring up sodom and Gomorra”
Peterson, methinks you gave them far too much leeway! You should have been more of cruel taskmaster; it would have been fun to force them to see their arguments through to the end 😉
Its so sad to listen to how unlearned people can be who have degrees in theology. The moderator of the show tried to refute Peter’s reference to shrimp being an abomination but the good old KJV says it is in Leviticus 11:10. After years if struggling with these issues I came to very similar conclusions as Peter (although I do consider the Bible to be infallible and inerrant–but the views of men and their flawed translations of the texts are not).
I don’t know how he did that. I would have had a seizure because of the blindness and ignorance displayed by those hosts. Peterson Toscano did an excellent job displaying the Love and Grace of God.
(emily: I thought the announcer was making some sort of connexion between Barack Obama and Islam, thank you for correcting me)
I am currently taking koine Greek, and it is so extremely helpful. I agree, all Christians should at least understand some basic Greek and Hebrew, and even some Aramaic. It would help us so much. The lack of understanding of Greek was a great factor in the downfall of the church during the middle ages, as the texts were so misunderstood in the West.
These guys are so desperate, it’s funny. Whenever they lost an argument, they conveniently went to take a caller. Peterson’s tact and patience are amazing, but I don’t think those are his outstanding traits here. He has an uncanny ability to turn his opponents’ attacks around and use them to knock out the legs from underneath their own arguments. It was awesome.
The Best Line:
Host: (Regarding Romans I) I don’t know if you understand plain English
Peterson: I do, but I also understand ancient Greek which helps
Peterson never ceases to amaze and inspire 🙂
the radio broadcast continued the topic the next day, without the distraction of peterson’s calm refutation of ignorance. peterson’s ‘pompous and smug’ activist rebellion against God was discussed at length. one caller described him repeatedly as a ‘filthy homo’ and the host merely said ‘thank you’ in response.
thanks for putting yourself out there, peterson. i have no doubt that hardline homophobes will not listen objectively, but i do believe your words will make a difference for many who really need to hear the truth.
Peterson:
That is so true. And I don’t know about others, but it took about 5 years after I came out before I finally came back around and went back to church. And even then it took time for me to reconcile my faith with my sexuality. It is a long and painful process and there is a lot of emotional baggage attached to it. Now that I am in a loving and accepting Church community, I have been able to let go of the pain, but I need to remember it because others (like my partner) still are struggling with their faith. My partner sees no use for Church and may never see use for it. It is sad how an organization whose leader died for saying things like “Love your neighbor as yourself” should turn away from the very core of their leader’s teachings.
I listened to the following day’s broadcast as well. I have never seen such a perfect example of cowardice as what the broadcasters did the following day. They completely lost the debate the previous day, so they needed another day with Peterson not present to defend himself and they completely smeared him. I respect the religious beliefs of Peterson but I truly fear religion and the nitwits that called in during the following day’s broadcast. People, we have got to win the white house in this next election. If we don’t want it carved in stone that we (gays and ex-gay survivors) are outcasts in society, we MUST win that white house.
Is there an mp3 link to the next day’s broadcast?
Don’t put it up here. I don’t want to be responsible for sharing that bile with even one extra person. They make Peter look sane.
You can find it easily if you do a little digging, but David is right to describe it as bile and to not want a direct link to it here. I listened to just a bit of it before I simply had to close the file, and keep in mind I listened to the prior day’s broadcast entirely.
It was almost as if the two hosts were so frustrated from the previous day’s debate that they were seeking personal catharsis by going through every extreme and offensive stereotype and myth in the book, all the while patting each other on the back with no one around to temper their ranting. That’s really all it was: a couple guys who needed to reassure themselves of all of the stereotypes, misconceptions and hateful notions that Peterson probably gave a good shaking on the day before.
Peterson,
I love you and get more proud of you the more you place yourself in the lion’s den like this.
It bears serious note that these two men like to think their function IS solely to bait, assert stereotype and look at gay men as easily intimidated or weak. They are confident that they don’t have to answer to their attitude or what they say and think having gay men come in for a chat is still going to shore up their idea of what a gay man really is or what he will say.
But Peterson has already had his trial by fire. He’s more than ready, more than able to articulate what needs to be said for the whole community.
He TRIED the other way, the more accepted path. Which doesn’t mean the more ACCEPTABLE path. I am reiterating what Chris E is saying.
And I will add, that it looks so pathetic, so cowardly these same old assumptions that are made about gay folks and homosexuality in general.
There is a determined lack of spine that keeps them running backwards away from the gift of human progress and learning about SHARED goals and needs, that are normal for ALL decent human beings. that have been learned SINCE religious texts were written.
Many things extend beyond human language and formal education. Kindness does. Empathy does. That’s why it’s been the greatest aspect of our humanity that a little of either goes a long way.
But thousands of years of religious control and principle requires such reinforcement. As if some Christians have less faith in love and kindness and empathy, than they do in words on a Biblical page.
And has had limits in our human written and spoken language in these millenia.
I think that this determination to humiliate and rankle gay people in public venues shows a weak character, if not weakness to expand on what people are learning and must learn.
But the bigger point of fact is that assumption that they won’t have a gay child, grandchild or any other gay family member that’s worth learning how to prepare for and care for in the right way.
Gay people can love God and BE loved by God without permission of their fellow mortals.
And it’s undignified for any mortal to assume that a gay person requires it.
You’re always inspiring, Peterson. Any man that can hunt down a BBQ tofu sandwich in Memphis in a place where you could get beat down with the jawbone of a steer for doing so, can do anything.
I’m right there with you, brothers and sisters. Every step of the way.
Well, except for EVER eating tofu!
I just do not get it. A city that worships Elvis and now adoring Justin Timberlake for bringing ‘Sexy Back’ can still mention homosexuality as something so gruesome for mankind without questioning results of heterosexuality. Guess the radio host’s mentality of ‘it is okay to present your two virgin daughters to be raped by a group of homosexuals (so do we assume the violent group of men were lesbians or bi-s by the account of Sodom?)’ speaks a ‘Lot’ by itself.
I just do not get it. A city that worships Elvis and now adoring Justin Timberlake for bringing ‘Sexy Back’ can still mention homosexuality as something so gruesome for mankind without questioning results of heterosexuality. Guess the radio host’s mentality of ‘it is okay to present your two virgin daughters to be raped by a group of homosexuals (so do we assume the violent group of men were lesbians or bi-s by the account of Sodom?)’ speaks a ‘Lot’ by itself.
Peterson is incredibly brave and shows forth his deepening discipleship. His light and his life are a testimony of this. It’s like he is there in front of the Scribes and Pharisees (those who judge) and is not just talking about grace but is living a life of grace. The key is “the fruits of the Holy Spirit”. I see many of the “right wing” preachers as extremist and fearbased. The greatest fruit of the Holy Spirit is love.
I find it interesting that matters of faith are constantly debated within the GBLT community; if any religiously affiliated group does not embrace us as fellow members of the human race the so be it.
My well-worn dictionary reminds me that “belief” is understood to mean the “confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof.” Matters of belief cannot intrinsically be argued to any clear-cut dichotomous conclusion.
I was born into a Roman Catholic family, raised in both a church atmosphere and church affiliated schools my entire life, and still I was unable to reconcile what I was being taught with what my conscience would allow. I have since left the church and study the tenets in great detail of Judaism, Christianity (in it’s many flavors), Islam, Hinduism, Shintoism, Buddhism, Wiccan, Atheism (technically it qualifies under the denotation of religion), New Age, and polytheistic traditions all leading to the same conclusion: we do not know the true nature “(the) G/god(s).”
If we accept that we can all argue our religious positions until the Sun burns out and life is extinguished with no clear victor in the battle (except through clear, militant force and rejection of all other ideas) than why not choose, as a species, to act in the light of decency?
Admittedly no one likes to be wrong, especially with our animalistic survival instincts of always having to be the champion (thus “being right” in our modern American societal instance of this biological precedent) ; but if my monogamous, loving, caring, mutually respective, sexually participatory, socially responsible relationships with other men (correctly implying I am also a male and subsequently gay identified) is “wrong” then I have no need for the “right.”
I still wonder what others think; please do not hesitate to respond.
I laughed when the host said that 39 states still have sodomy laws, then Peterson corrected him and the Supreme overtuned it, then the host said “they absolutely did not”. Peterson was right the Supreme Court struck down all remaining sodomy laws in 2003. What an idiot! I think just like he just doesn’t want to admit he’s fighting a losing battle, and as time progesses his power gets weaker.
I listened to the entire radio broadcast (it took forever to load it onto my system) and after realizing that about 65 percent of the broadcast was filled with commercials; the real substance, logic and intelligence only came from Peterson Toscano. There was so much hateful rhetoric and lies that were thrown at GLBT people and Peterson in particular. Peterson cares so much about gay people and the hate and Bible abuse that is being spewed at impressionable gay people (especially young people) that he chose to stand up for them using his own personal experience with this abuse. He always showed forth love and kindness throughout the entire interview. Three Cheers for the Society of Friends (The Quakers) for raising up such a wonderful man in Christ. I loved what Peterson said about the Quakers. They emphasize following the Holy Spirit above all else.
I believe Larry Bates and others who were on the show and hosting it will one day have to answer for their bigotry before the God of Heaven who is NOT the Bible (a collection of God inspired books) but the living God of Heaven. I wonder if Larry Bates has ever considered the fact that worshipping the Bible as though the Book itself were God is also a form of Idolatry?
I personally believe that men like that (or the women who were so horribly condemning of Peterson and gay people) will have to experience what it is like to be in our skin (those whom they have judged) when they die. I think that is the judgement that is “hollographic” in nature. I have heard of people who have had near death experiences who in their “life review” said that they not only saw themselves harming others but felt and experienced the harm (feelings, etc.) that they inflicted – whether verbal or physical. The reality is that the Savior Jesus Christ meant EXACTLY what He said when he said as recorded in Matthew 25 “when ye have done it unto these the least of these my brethren ye have done it unto me.”
Peterson, you did an absolutely fantastic job! I normally eschew these kinds of programs because I’m used to nothing but hostility and yelling matches. Yet you were able to witness for gay Christians with such calmness and faith that it blew me away. Thanks very much and this one I’m posting a link to.
“The knowledge of our truth makes us free” … bull. The truth – which is God, God is truth, makes us free.
Did that strike anyone else as being crypto-Gnostic? When I heard Bates say this it stunned me given his claim to adhere to orthodox Christianity.
Rainbow Watchman…
well, I’d go along with the just not accepting part to. But there’s more than a disagreement here. There is blatant lying, arrogance and fostering of fear and loathing so intense…that gay CHILDREN are murdered!
A young boy shot his gay schoolmate in the head in a school in Oxnard not a month ago. Were this disagreement, instead of a diabolical attempt to make gay people out to be THE most evil that ever walked the Earth begs much more serious challenges to what people are saying and thinking and exactly if they ARE simply disagreeing.
They might take a temperate attitude with us in the room with them, like a person might a fly or bug. But engage in advocating for the most powerful poison they can muster to get rid of gay people altogether.
Our need to challenge is FAR more urgent. Actual gay lives are threatened. And the most innocent, gay children are no less in danger than an adult gay person.
But that’s why we have to do what we must. And even so, how gay people react to such poison….isn’t even violent.
But quite patient and forthright and legal….all the while.
OMG, I just realized: this happened in Oxnard, California?!? I was stationed at nearby NAWS Pt. Mugu years ago. At the time it was a sleepy little place. Small world, very sad…
i really thought my head was going to spin right off while listening to this. peterson handled himself admirably in the face of such unrestrained bigotry and hatred. and people wonder why people like myself have abandoned their faith.
You know, I must be a sucker for punishment, because I listened to the entire broadcast… and then started the next day’s… I need a shower. I am grateful that Peterson has enough graciousness and clarity to speak to such nonsense. And I am grateful that he put himself out there on all our behalf…