Ex-Gay Watch often points out how specific ex-gay programs worsen sexual struggle and emotional and spiritual trauma rather than curing it. It also documents how some ex-gay programs exploit strugglers for selfish political or financial gain.
But it’s less often that we clearly spell out appropriate, constructive steps that strugglers and their supporters can take.
What can XGW and other gay-tolerant groups do to support people whose values require them to remain celibate outside of heterosexual marriage, or who need assistance to reduce unhealthy compulsions or depression?
If a gay person believes that they can only have sex when married, and they feel that they want to have a sex life, we should encourage them to move to Massachusetts, where they can get married, and go to a nice unitarian universalist church that will accept them. We welcome more gay people here in New England. They’ll have some problems finding someone to date willing to live with their no-sex rule, but they should be able to learn to deal with that better in the accepting environment of a blue state than wherever it is they’re living.
If their beliefs are that gay people have to be celibate and their feelings tell them they don’t want to or can’t… well, we should refer them to a reputable psychiatrist or psychologist who specializes in helping gay and lesbian people. Frankly, those beliefs and those feelings are mutually incompatible and they’re going to have to learn to accept themselves and learn to live with the idea that their beliefs are unrealistic whether they like it or not, or they’re going to continue torturing themselves with the conflict of beliefs and feelings.
Step 1: Determine what you really believe.
It is not enough to think “oh I can’t be gay”. You must figure out why and what that means.
Do you believe that you must live in accordance with a standard of sexual holiness, or do you believe that the direction of your attractions must change? In other words, do you believe that your standard is similar to other single heterosexual Christians (avoid lust, live chastely), or has God given you the task of changing the gender towards which you are drawn? And why do you believe whichever it is?
Do you believe that you cannot enjoy things that a gay person might or go certain places or know other gay people or exhibit certain mannerisms? Do you believe that you cannot be culturally gay or sexually gay?
Most importantly, WHY do you believe what you believe? This is the question that will direct the entire rest of your life.
Step 2. Find out the facts (the real ones).
Rather than rely on what others tell you about “the homosexual lifestyle”, do some research.
You will quickly find out that there are a great many Christians (and other religious) resources for same-sex attracted persons. Only a small percentage are dedicated to changing orientation.
You will also discover (if you look closely) that very very few persons convert from same-sex attractions to opposite sex attractions. The most recent study found (in it prospective sample) that there was little to no statistically significant change in attraction.
If you wish to change attractions, you may at this point decide to adopt a different goal – perhaps lifelong celibacy. If you are in a marriage, you may decide that living a dischordant life (attractions v. behavior) is an acceptable consequence of having a lifestyle that fits your goals.
NOTE: If you are not married, DO NOT GET MARRIED. The odds are very strongly weighted towards divorce, acrimony, and hurt. This is not an area where I believe it’s a matter of goals or choice. This is an area where it is overwhelmingly likely that you will seriously harm someone else’s life.
For those who think reorientation is impossible or unlikely for them, they need to next determine if they are looking for life-long celibacy or for a committed relationship or, I suppose, sowing their wild oats.
Step 3. Find a support network.
I recommend a first step (if you are a Christian) is to visit http://www.gaychristian.net
They are comprised of gay people of faith, including those who are seeking fidelity within a committed relationship as well as those who seek a life of celibacy. These are called Side A and Side B gay Christians.
Also find a local place of worship. You need a network and it’s either this or something else… which may not be so conducive to your struggles.
DO NOT find a place of worship that is judgmental of you, or that will accept you only conditionally, or that has prior demands on your faith. And I recommend that in any direction.
If they insist that you embrace your sexuality, run. If they insist that you change your sexuality, run. Stay only if they want to love you, as you, and that they will be supportive in whichever way that you feel God is leading you.
Step 4. Be patient.
Be willing to make mistakes and forgive yourself. And be willing to accept mistakes in others.
Avoid culture wars, but allow others to have their own beliefs.
And, most importantly, allow yourself to mature and grow and come to understandings other than what you may have at this time. Don’t hold onto beliefs out of fear. Be introspective.
And finally, don’t filter life though a preconceived notion. Be open to change and to new information be it scientific, religious thought, or the personal interference of the divine.
Ok. I have a very different take on this.
1. Question EVERYTHING. For LGBT person struggling to come out, the last thing you need to do is take ANYTHING as “gospel.” Remember, a lot of lies have been packaged in pretty sounding (or scary sounding) religious babble and twinkle dust.
2. Read as much NON-FICTION as you can. History, sociology, psychology, etc. You’ve been exposed to lots of flights of fancy as well as homophobic lies. Time to steep yourself in the reality-based community.
3. Re-think your relationships (friends, colleagues, etc). If a person is honest and kind (not the fakey-church lady stuff), they are a good friend to have in your life–regardless of their religious affliation (or lack thereof). If they seem overly interested in the details of your life, and/or judgemental, you have better things to do with your time than to listen to them.
4. Take a break from church. If you’re struggling, you may not be in a safe place for LGBT people. If you feel unsafe, threatened, etc., listen to the impulse that says “leave.” You need to really shape your own identity. Ultimately, it’s your life, not anyone else’s.
5. Stay the hell away from the opinionaters on “sexual morality.” If they’re yakking about it, they’ve probably got more crappola lurking in their closets then you could EVER imagine. The last thing you need to endure is some idiot’s psychosexual projections playing roller-derby with your life.
6. Remember coming out is a process–the most important step is to be honest with yourself. It’s the lying to ourselves that is the most destructive, since then lying to everyone else is far easier….(see Larry Craig, etc).
Good LUCK!
I’d say simply be understanding, be patient, and let them know that you believe they have the right to live according to their own beliefs, even if that means celibacy. What you don’t believe in is their pressuring you to also live by their beliefs, whether in person or in law. I really think the idea of the LGBT community as a low-pressure zone is one that hasn’t been explored (let alone *used!*) enough. Let the ministries and churches do the pressuring–we don’t need to join in!
Thank you, Mike, for beginning this thread.
I have a friend who experiences same-sex attraction. One thing I’ve learned from my friend and from listening to others who are struggling is that feeling like they can’t talk about the struggle (without being judged) is extremely difficult for them. They often experience this from their fellow believers – and for those who have GLBT friends or acquaintances – some also experience pressure to come out or ridicule for their beliefs.
It’s difficult for strugglers who do not want to be part of an ex-gay ministry but who also do not want to identify as gay. There are no “neutral” spaces for them to interact with each other or with people who don’t have
an agenda for their relationships or religious beliefs.
I love my friend. No strings attached. I love her.
She loves me too. She knows I’m a lesbian. She loves me. No strings attached.
We know that we disagree in profound ways about issues of sexuality and religion. We talk and share and learn from each other. We’re not trying to convince or convert.
I have no illusions about our differences – but I also honestly believe it is possible for people with such differences to find ways to connect and care and co-exist. This friendship gives me a glimmer of hope even as the culture wars rage on.
We choose to love and respect each other above all else. We do that by listening to each other, and sharing with each other.
I feel fortunate to have this friend.
I would love to read more from others out there about how we can build bridges like this, or best support people in our lives who struggle.
Mostly, I’d love to hear from strugglers about this. I think we could all learn more from those who may feel pulled in different directions, or isolated.
Well, I suppose you could call me a “struggler.” At the very least, I am someone whose values require me to remain celibate outside of heterosexual marriage. I’ve always had plenty of advice to give fellow strugglers based on my own experiences, but I’ll admit I never thought about what support gay-tolerant groups could do to support people like me.
I think the most important thing is something Timothy Kincaid said: Accept us as we are. Our beliefs in chastity are not a threat, and a lot of us still want to be a part of the GLBT community in some respects. Don’t say our beliefs disqualify us, or that we hold on to them because we’re afraid of what society might think of us if we were openly gay.
Personally, I consider myself “openly gay” despite my celibacy. It’s caused interesting situations with both my gay friends and my Christian friends, but the most important thing that both groups have done is respect me for who I am, realize that I’m not changing my stance for either of them, and that I belong to both.
1) Values change. Remind them they need do nothing to be your friend, other than be your friend. It’s a like a umm self-circular circle, or umm, something or other.
(note to self: “a “true friend” is not someone in, as brat said, “fakey-church lady” mode. Fakey-church ladies are not friends, they are predators. They whip their own chillun. They like whippin’ their own chillun. In fact, they only had sex to provide such opportunity for whippin’.)
Unless your friend is demonstrably self-destructive or demonstrably hurtful and harmful to other people… so. what.
(note to self: “demonstrably” does not include “not worshipping like I do”)
Are you wanting to be a friend, or seeking a disciple?
2) know when to shut-up, speak up, and when to encourage neutral professional help.
(note to self: that point does not arise when someone simply says “I am gay.”)
Clinical depression is VERY different to feeling sad or feeling sorry for yourself. We all do that. They are normal emotions.
(note to self: If you think you never do feel sad or feel sorry for yourself: seek out a clinical pathologist. A person is probably drugging you, secretly.)
Do not send them to a “therapist” who will use those negative emotions to further the therapist’s own religious, social or political ends. An ex-gay group almost certainly will.
There’s a lot of them out there. Lots of kooky people become therapists — they are self-medicating. The industry has a hard time weeding them out.
3) remember what you went through. Always.
(note to self: be patient. Put up with no nonsense. Give them no nonsense.)
4) learn to do without sleep, when you want/need it, and also how to cook while cradling a phone in crook of your neck.
They will call you. They will. They will talk for hours. As tempting as it may get at times, do not yell out “Oh for God’s sake, you’re gay — just go out and find a nice guy will you!!!”
Such moments, it seems, typically occur when you are chopping up a stir fry. But at least, if nothing else, cutting your index finger to the bone during your lapse in concentration does give you a perfectly excusable opportunity to hang up the phone.
(note to self: they will call, next morning, to “see how you are”… it just an excuse. It’s always about them. Again, see point 3…)
5) invite them.
You’d be amazed what sort of influence a happy, contented, openly-gay couple can have on a person. Anti-gay myths, like skanky ponds, evaporate in the heat of bright Summer.
Even if they still choose otherwise for themself, at least they’ll lose the attitude.
(note to self: invite other unattached people: falling in love — or feeling that they can — is ultimately responsible for 99.99% of ex-gay’s changing their minds…) 🙂
Jay — we’d agree (only been able to follow you via your blog and Pam/Grace) that you are “not a threat”. Almost laughable, actually, no offense! Must be the cap in the photo.
I guess the big difference is that you are making decisions about yourself, not trying to make them about others. And that’s all you are asking for. This is very refreshing.
“That” feels about as “threatening” as inviting any of our hindu or muslim friends (or even those nasty vegetarians) over for dinner. In other words, well able to be accomodated by all.
Anyhoo, just wanted to say that. cheers mate!
ps did read the “coming out” post at the blog: gawd you’re a glutton for punishment aren’t you 🙂 It’s enough to come out… not quite sure how we’d then word the “and celibate” and “understanding boyfriend” appendices… glad it was you, not us — one type of explaining to do was more than enough for us at the time!
I’m with Jay a lot on this one. I think too many people in the gay world see celibate gays, or gay people that don’t want to be gay or come out, as threats to gays in general.
I can see where the fear comes, but if we aren’t open and loving to gay people that may not see things the way we do, we do nothing to help them. So, my answer is to accept them, love them, and try to understand them without judging or getting defensive.
“…is probably drugging you, secretly” grandale…you’re so precious! I almost snorted my glass of juice after reading that part. Thanks for the sage advice and I know there has been someone who has cut his finger on my account.
And for Jay: You’ll have to watch for two kinds of people: Those who want you to have sex with a woman and those who will think you haven’t had the best gay sex yet. Their motivation is to convert you to one side of the fence or the other. It doesn’t work. Insatiable love sometimes comes naturally and unexpectedly despite the self-imposed celibacy. Just a warning.
This site, although interesting and with a different take on things, like soulforce, does not permit overly anti-gay debate on their sites, actually both these sites have previously banned ex-gay links or topics that have been put forward(maybe its silly for them, and maybe for a good reason but still…), unlike here at ex-gay watch. It did not help me for the simple reason that its not up for debate and its supposed to be a ‘safe haven'(fantasy island comes to mind) for gay christians. Then again… there might be some that have already passed ‘the struggle’ and are rdy to come out, celibate or not. This site might be of help for that.
You can also get some laughs out of there… the picture section is an entertainment all of its own.
Its called success actually :P, to each his own tho! I have a very good friend of mine thats going to be a monk very soon. He seems happy doin that, and im happy for him too :). So in that same spirit, im glad you found your calling.
Dunno if i satisfy these conditions but…
I’m just wanting to come out now… just for the sake of all the ‘fag’, ‘faggot’ nonsense spewing around. Surrounded(and living with) a bunch of homophobes is very uncomfortable too(guess they think the same way), lol… too bad they dont know the faggot is the one their speaking too. Thinking how they’ll react though is enough to keep my mouth shut.(Not very brave am I? )
Truth is however, the essence of coming out is not very important to me anyways, like Peter O and Jim, I dont think being gay or straight bars you from creating a relationship with the opposite or same sex. I mean rlly.. why not??, and if you look at it close enough you’d see all straight guys would be fair bait. :P…
You know.. XGW, i just figured something out …(after writing and deleting quite a couple of paragraphs) TY for starting this post. As much as Alan Chamber gets my nerves in a knot, he did say, and rightfully so, write everything out… it lets you understand and organize your thoughts and ideas more effectively.
BTW… how do you deal with homophobia if ones gay?… and with no known available support around here? Ill come back and tell you how my ‘coming out’ went(sometimes one just has to jump before its too late or ones starts regretting)… and for the benefit(maybe) of others with similar situations. Ill come out as bi tho… for the sake of my belief.
This is a great question. As a straight friend, MY first question would be why they are struggling in the first place.
Is it with same sex attraction, or with having a relationship with another gay person? The ex gay business could equally exploit someone who is feeling vulnerable about not having the right fit, gay or not.
On the one hand, there is a tug in most of us, when all around us there are couples in our social network. Whether married or not. And we’re not always privy to whatever difficulties there are beneath the surface, so that our social cues regardless success within a relationship might be skewed.
The ex gay business DOES sell homosexuality as INEVITABLY fraught with depression, lonliness, disease, fear and death. And they sell heterosexuality as profoundly happy, spiritually and emotionally strengthening and physically the utmost in satisfaction. Marriage amplifying all those qualities.
None of this is real, let alone true. So the reality, somehow is lost in the sales pitch from both sides of the sexual orienation aisle.
Struggle is inevitable in ALL relationships, is more the reality. And celibacy in some and FOR some people is an AVOIDANCE of really learning what one is, or one’s potential in a relationship.
With no goal to have one, then the exercise to build on isn’t there.
I suppose one could call the struggle, how to REACT and how to build more self esteem, and review one’s history with them.
There is a benefit in celibacy if one is a veteran of bad relationships and there is a need to step back and regroup.
But the way celibacy is offered as a lifetime option for someone with little experience AS a gay person OR straight person, still doesn’t solve enough problems.
I suppose in a way, the ex gay business doesn’t COVER enough complexity. It’s too rigid and unresponsive to individual realities. They are too reliant on a simple and narrow template.
This is why successful gay couples and successfully open gay people would be the better influence on a struggler I would think.
In so many ways, older black women, whose relationship options for a compatible black man are almost as narrow as it seems for gays and lesbians.
The complaints from my gay male friends and black hetero sisters are so similar that they ALL have considered celibacy or NOT pursuing any more relationships at all, their struggle was so profound. And black women ARE church women. So their religious belief is also consistent with preference for a married and committed sex life.
So perhaps the struggle for gay people is more about who is INTERFERING with said happiness with being gay and who isn’t.
And finding that friend or professional who won’t further interfere is the best course.
I know nothing about being gay. But I do know something about being reluctantly and involuntarily celibate because of relationship problems.
And I’m simply living through it, but I certainly don’t want to think that this will be for the rest of my life.
That prospect just makes me feel worse.
people often categorize those around them, and those they meet as better or worse than them. There is this need to put people into a hierarchy that supports their own personal beliefs.
I’ve noticed that elitism can appear just about anywhere. There are those in open relationships who have this need to see themselves as superior to others so they say their relationship is more “honest” more “evolved” and they are more “enlightened”. There are monogamists who see themselves virtually the same way. We all do this to some degree, but those who are in the precarious spot of being outsiders to the culture at large, both accepting and rejecting their homosexuality can be used as a badge of courage, and a cudgle to beat over the heads of the “unwashed masses.”
I think everyone has this insecure need to be better than somebody somewhere. Especially those on the bottom, they have this need to find somebody to pick on, someone who is lower than them on the food chain to which they can say, “well at least I’m not like them.”
I often think in my head when someone starts to sermonize me on their particular viewpoint : “Are you trying to convince me that you’re right, or yourself?”
I had a friend who was clearly gay and very attractive. Men and women both wanted him very badly. “Why won’t he just come out already!!??” they would lament. I remember both straight and gay people hounding him about it. They even questioned me, “surely you know that Dan is gay!!!” and my answer would be, “Dan is not hurting anyone. It would be different if he was off barebacking every night, or had a string of men he was using and abusing for his own amusement—- but he’s not. If he is gay, trying to drag him out by his hair is only going to make him love the closet more, and give him a perfectly good reason to hate and distrust gay and pro-gay people. It’s only going to prolong the process for him. If he is NOT gay, then you are simply annoying the hell out of him. In either case he has no reason to be your friend.”
Yes, precisely.
I find no value in anti-gay debate (or anti-black, anti-woman, anti-middle-age-straight-white-guy, anti-jew, anti-Christian, or anti-left-handed-red-haired-Lithuanian debate)
http://www.gaychristian.net doesn’t allow ex-gay evangelism or anti gay remarks, but does support those who, for religious reasons, choose to be celibate.
There is a protected “Side B” board just for those individuals to get support and think through their beliefs without interference from “Side A” Christians. (who are those who do not believe human intimacy is always wrong.)
Speaking from experience, the most profound thing that anyone has done for this particular “struggler” is to be there as a friend. When I decided I could no longer live as “ex-gay,” my whole world turned upside down…but mostly I found myself alone. I was even more alone than I had prevously been living a life where I denied being gay was acceptable. I don’t think my situation is too uncommon as an ex ex-gayer. I am married (yes still) for all the obvious reasons, and some maybe not so obvious. I am at a point of figuring out whether I can live honestly as a gay man and not ‘abandon’ my wife. I found myself suddenly friendless, even my kids, who are adults have turned against me. I don’t imagine any of this is uncommon for an ex ex-gay.
There are probably few gays on the face of this earth who cannot understand the lonely torture of the closet. I have found the stepping out process to be particulary isolating…kind of a no mans land.
When I first came out, I searched the net for friends, because the net was what was available. I wandered onto this site ( I googled ex-gay looking for people who might have common ground, and lucked onto this site). I was immediately encouraged by the info, but still isolated because I couldn’t get anyone to respond to me. It was kind of like reading a book. I was feeling very pathetic, you know, the kind of guy everyone wants around. I was not at my best, confused and hurting. I comforted myself that this wasn’t the kind of site where you make friends, XGW is here to expose the falacy of ex-gay. So after many attempts at connecting, I left.
Sorry, this may be more than you asked for, but this is “open forum” so I am taking full advantage. I don’t think I am far off when I say those strugglers you reference often find themselves alone. I believe creating an evironment where that person no longer has to hide, especially when that person is taking the steps to discover and assert what heretofore was hidden, buried, stomped down, could go a long way to helping many.
Very true, grantdale, although I will say what I think to my “Side A” gay Christian friends about what my beliefs are concerning God and sexuality, and I don’t think that’s a problem. Trying to convince someone of something isn’t trying to make decisions for them. It’s just being honest about what your beliefs are and why you think they’re the right ones.
Also, I loved your advice. Personally, I think I could modify it and send it out as a pamphlet about how Christians can witness to gay friends (or friends who might be different in general). Listening, comforting, and being a friend are universal truths. It’s nice to hear them from somebody every now and then.
Paul,
please let me be the first to apologize. While it is true that the structure of the site does not yield itself to providing friendship and support for those in your position, I am sorry that we did not find a way to minister to your needs and, if nothing else, direct you to where you could have the personal interaction and listening ear that you needed.
Paul,
I’m sorry we weren’t as supportive as we could have been.
In the past, I have suggested to readers like you that various groups for gay or bisexual married men are worth checking out.
Toujoursdan is also correct, that gaychristian.net (GCN) offers some great support for conservative Christian gay men whether they are seeking to live celibately or monogamously. One caveat: I wouldn’t recommend GCN for liberal Christians or people from other faiths at the moment.
You are welcome to hang out here, too, of course. XGW is primarily concerned with confronting political, religious, and ethical abuses of ex-gay groups and so the emphasis is less on support — but I think XGW and its readers would benefit from improved support.
Tim and Michael,
Thank you , that’s kind of both of you. I understand and I think a part of me understood then, after a fashion, that this is not that kind of place. I was, therefore, happy to see the question asked: “what can XGW do to support….” I know I’m not the first gay to come stumbling out of the ex-gay movement in search of connection with someone who doesn’t treat gays as bent.
I should say there was one guy who comes here occassionally and pointed me towards Soul Force. While I am a de-convert, I found some really great people there whose attitudes transend religion. Perhaps that’s another answer to your question, you might put an obvious link somewhere here on your web page pointing people to potential friends. No one likes to feel needy or vulnerable, but unfortunately it’s hard to avoid when you’re in between worlds.
I second this sentiment, and perhaps your next step is to become more involved in the general discussion. I’m sure you would add depth and value to XGW.
While we aren’t so much a support site, we do try very hard to keep the atmosphere as civil as possible, so I hope you can feel safe voicing your opinions.
Welcome back 😉
Timothy, I thought this post was absolutely profound.
What could Ex-gay Watch provide?
How about two places: one for the dialog and debate; one for healing wounds.
This site does so well on the first; but it is the latter that concerns me.
Let’s call the latter concept a ‘medic’s tent’. A tent of essays from those concerned about healing that also identified as prior-wounded… a place where the newly wounded or long-term wounded can come, and no one cares what uniform they wear: Christian, non-Christian, agnostic, atheist, anti-gay, pro-gay, neutral-gay, those that have renounced their faith, those that cling to what little faith is left…. they all can come, and softly read divergent views of healing, concepts of change, Bible-based reasoning, evidence-based reasoning, miracles answered, and/or miracles declined.
Why a medic’s tent? Because some that visit here at Ex-gay Watch may not wish to enter the dialog, and may shy away from the debate. They’ve been wounded too many times. And ‘friendly fire’ from those they once trusted, has done its damage far too well.
They bleed; and hope drips away from them.
What are the rules of combat in a medic’s tent? None, for there is no ‘combat’ allowed.
What are the rules of healing, then? How about these: One essay each; no more than one. The essays should be from the wounded or spouses of the wounded; no essays allowed from the professional counselor that does not identify as LGB and/or T. Essays must concern your own self, your own suffering, and your own resolutions … just like Jesus did verbally on the road to Emmaus. [Luke 24]
Alan Chambers can write one essay. Maybe he’ll write about living in a heterosexual relationship with ‘denying himself’. There are some that need to read about such a life. Joe Dallas can write one essay. Maybe he’ll write about his decision to divorce his wife, be gay, be celibate, be heterosexual, and then to be married to wife #2. There are some that need to read about such a life. And yes, maybe I can write one essay about staying married with my wife, when I’m still bisexual and yet no longer ‘male’. There are some that need to read about such a life. The list of authors can be very long.
Casualties that need hope ask the medic hard questions: (1) what is your history, (2) what were your conflicts (if any), and (3) how did you solve them… if ever? Part of the Christian distinctives that are taught in Matthew chapter 5, include the call to being simply human, very human, and nothing more than human (“anything more than that comes from the Evil One”).
I offer that among the strong, there is a place for dialog, debate, and reconciliation. But, among the wounded soldiers, vulnerable honesty heals better than brilliant rhetoric.
Caryn, what would be the major difference between such a group and Bridges Across? The latter was never that effective I don’t think, because it tended to ignore the very real differences in thought between those on either side of the issue, a false marriage of sorts (Mike A. could explain that in more detail).
Dear David: I stumbled into “Bridges Across” months ago, and just quickly re-read several parts of the site, to ensure my memory was intact. I do not know historically why it was not effective. Perhaps others can help us to understand, and to build something that is better. It sadly took me 2 days to type the above note. I am too weak for perhaps a few more days, and the pain-killers confuse my mind too easily. If anyone thinks this concept is good, please say so. I must recover from a surgery…. i am sorry… i simply must step aside for now. i can barely offer the concept, let alone defend it, or improve it. My most sincere apologies. Caryn
No need for apologies, Caryn – just a question. Please take care of yourself. I hope you have some help there.
I’m so glad the question was finally asked! I would say engage in the diversity of stories and journies that people have with respect to sexuality. It’s not only about two or three common perspectives. It’s not only about having sex. Being gay — should my goal in Christ be finding a partner…or not finding a partner? I can get confused in the dialog.
Do you create safe space to walk with people, regardless of how they practice or what they believe, simply because you want them to know Christ and center their life on Christ?
I might argue that we don’t need another anti-gay church just as much as we don’t need another gay church. Should the focus of the gospel be re-orientation? Should the focus of the gospel be empowerment to find a partner? What are the broader themes that you are encouraging in spiritual growth? Are we more concerned with having the “correct” perspective than with people’s hearts and lives? I think God cared more about people’s hearts and lives….first. Start there, in my humble opinion.
Mike, when you asked what XGW and other gay-tolerant/affirming groups can do to support people whose values require them to not act on their same sex attractions, you did the very thing that has felt most supportive and respectful to me—you simply asked. You did not rush in to give all your ideas about what I probably need, and you avoided jumping to premature conclusions about what I’ve experienced.
I never expected to get support from the LGBT community, so I was quite taken back when I found some. It has, by far, been the most powerful force to help me listen more deeply to concerns that do not always mirror mine.
Here are a few of the many other things that have felt wonderfully supportive to me:
-a respectful curiosity about the decisions I’ve made and the perspectives I hold. (I knew this didn’t signify agreement. I also knew questions were asked to extend care and to learn, not to invite a lecture.)
-an understanding that there are many different ways to think about values, sexuality, and life
-a willingness to share life, thoughts, and experiences—what has been similar and what has been different
-a relationship in which same gender sexual longings are deeply understood and accepted, even if I have chosen to live heterosexually and not to pursue a fuller expression of those longings.
Thank you David.
I think grantdale said this with some humor:
Okay, I was ‘that’ guy. I made the call many times and the phone mostly just rang off the hook. Two people answered. One person told me to keep on trying till I reached someone, the other told me I had a wrong number and gave me a different number. What I really needed is what everyone needs, just to be acknowledged and accepted.
I wish those reading this would take my name off of it and de-personalize this some, because I don’t think I’m unique. I think there are many “that” guys out there, who pull off the great escape from the ex-gay movement. I believe many here can relate to what I am saying. As grantdale noted: “3) remember what you went through. Always.”
In order to exist in the ex-gay movement, you have to deny who you are. Practice that self flagelation long enough and what’s left but a bleeding mass of flesh? I’ve never met the person who wants to be needy, but if we deny such a person the space to exist because they are annoying, we abandon them to their need. Sounds kind of like the ex-gay movement all over again, no? The temptation of the needy is to hide their condition in order to find a form of acceptance. Most ex-gays are well practiced in that technique. And maybe that’s part of the cure, to encourage the person in need that that need is not their identity but a condition. But, for that to succeed the person needs to feel their own value, hitherto denied by themselves and promoted by their ex-gay ‘support’ system.
I tried to unpack this a little more and took the long way round to get back to my original answer to the query: “what can XGW do to support…?” “Be their as a friend.” After all, what is XGW? It’s a group of people who can each individually choose to be the patient person on the other end of the phone or not.
Bridges Across worked for awhile. But then, when the exgays realized that they couldn’t use the site for evangelistic purposes, they left. One right after the other. There are a few people still left who engage in the issues, but it takes two sides to have a true conversation. And exgay evangelicals find it difficult to exist in an atmosphere where there are out, proud, healthy, intelligent, spiritually fulfilled gay people — when their leaders are telling them that we don’t exist.
The fact of our existence made it difficult or impossible for exgays to participate. They began realizing that the either/or black/white world being painted for them was a lie EVEN if the out/proud gay people there supported them in their journeys.
Insularity seems to be one of the requirements of the exgay movement.
It didn’t help that even when certain important exgays were present, they declined to converse.
I would ask certain exgay participants why they had just publicly declared gay folks (and therefore me) to be demon-possessed threats to society, and they wouldn’t respond.
Some gays would defend ex-gay freedom of speech and mutual nondiscrimination and point out gay activists who had done the same — and certain exgay participants would go to the public media and accuse all homosexuals of a conspiracy to silence and ostracize ex-gays.
The other problem with Bridges Across is that the idea of it was so new at the time — and the lines of religious warfare so distinctly marked — that it was misunderstood by people on both sides, each of whom saw it as a “trick” of some kind; a way to trap people into converting from one side to the other.
If “strugglers” are looking for a neutral place to discuss their lives and their struggles, Bridges Across still exists and they have every chance to freely and openly discuss their journeys. There is still a core group of intelligent, honest and open people who frequent that forum.
I agree that Bridges Across remains appropriate for honest and civil online discussion — though I think any online group is limited in activity and reach, and people in need of robust, persistent, or professional support should seek out a real-world support group or therapist.
One thing that concerns me is the overwhelming deference that is often shown to people’s beliefs and values. I think it’s important for us, in trying to help gay people struggling with their sexuality, to recognize that not all values and beliefs are created equal.
If a person’s values are tearing them apart, destroying them, for no more reason than that they’re gay, then I think it’s vital that we recognize that there’s something wrong with those values. If we can’t help someone to recognize that their values are destroying them, and that those values are the problem, then we can’t help them. As long as we go on showing deference to whatever idiotic values someone chooses to have, we can’t help save them from themselves.
paul: you are not unique. Whether said lightly or not, and we did say it with some humour (we hope), we’ve all been there. Truth be told, the two of us had nobody to call and bend their ears for hours: it is perhaps one of the reasons we are patient with individuals we have come to know.
… only wish such calls could be scheduled at mutually convenient hours: such as, when I don’t have a large sharp knife menacing my other hand… then again, when has “convenient” ever been part of the definition of a true friendship? 🙂
Friendships aren’t about “convenience”…
Timothy K: all flippancy aside… you are aware, we hope, just how truly, really dangerous those “left-handed-red-haired-Lithuanian” people are???
Plainly, living in WeHo, LA, CA, USA doesn’t expose one to every danger under the sun… such as, for example, a stingray barb stabbed into the heart… but please, please, please at least take advice from those who know better about certain groups of people.
Left-handed-red-haired-Lithuanian???
Like, give me a frozen beetroot now, and I’ll do it myself, and save them the trouble.
They all need shooting, they do.
(at this point, I think my tongue has actually pierced my cheek. Ooh, look… blood.)
I would partially agree that having normal, adjusted gay people posting at Bridges Across would chase away ex-gays – but only a certain kind of ex-gay, and that is the ex-gay motivated to “change” by propaganda and fear-based tactics. Having normal, healthy gay people present themselves would shatter these illusions and they would be forced to face themselves and our community honestly. It’s easier just to run away.
But the remaining ‘ex-gays’ are probably people who know that homosexuality is not a disease but are simply unwilling to “practice” it because it is incongruent with their belief system. Those people are the kind we are obviously targeting with this open forum topic; these are the people who really need a grey area or a neutral place they feel comfortable to be themselves. I fully support this idea.
This is what conservative Christians always say to me just before they unleash yet another sermon telling how I’m going to hell. My feeling is that it’s appropriate to tell others how I feel about their spiritual/lifestyle choices only after they’ve asked my opinion.
My feeling is that it’s appropriate to tell others how I feel about their spiritual/lifestyle choices only after they’ve asked my opinion.
So if someone’s “values” are that they should put a teaspoon of arsenic in their coffee each morning, we should refrain from telling them that their “lifestyle choice” is probably going to make them sick (or worse) unless asked our opinion?
Hey! Yeah! They use that argument, too! 🙂
Steve is absolutely right. Mark’s rhetoric is EXACTLY THE SAME as christian conservative rhetoric. The more commonly used metaphor is “would you not offer water to a person dying of thirst?” meaning that in their eyes, our potential “spiritual death” is in dire need of the “water of christ” or something like that.
In Mark’s defense, it’s a fine line to walk. If someone is truly hurting themselves because of what I feel are extreme, unhealthy beliefs, it’s hard for me not to say something. And, hypocrite that I am, I usually do.
In my personal and professional experience, every motivation to “same sex strugglers” to seek “change” can be addressed and resolved without ever attempting to change a person’s sexual orientation.
1. If they are depressed, treat the depression. Gognitive behavioral therapy, medications, exercise, skills training and positive social support are all very effective.
2. If they are guilt-ridden or doubtful of God’s love and salvation, help them to understand what the Bible does (and does not say) on these issues. Help them to study, think and question what they have been taught.
3. If they are isolated or lost in a destructive gay subculture, help them to see that they are many healthy gay “lifestyles”, not just the one they want to come out of.
4. If drug, alcohol, sex or other addictions are present, get the strugglers to professional help.
These were all very helpful to me in my own struggle to integrate sexuality and spirituality. And, oh yeah, don’t get married. All are hurt: “struggler”, spouse and most importantly, kids.
What was helpful for me was to see that there were other “lifestyles” than those that were portaryed on television or in movies, i.e. the “stereotypes.” I did not see myself fitting into those and did not want to become a one of the stereotypes. Then I began to realize, through the help of a threapist, that NO ONE is a stereotype. We are who we are and we also happen to be gay, lesbian, bi, transexual, whatever…
That was a big turning point in my coming out process.
On the question of deference toward another person’s values:
It’s one thing if the other person is clearly in pain, unhappy, or acting destructively, which you believe is caused by unhealthy beliefs. Or, if the other person is inflicting pain on others. Then, I think a friend does have some obligation to speak up and say, “Your beliefs are causing harm.”
But when the other person demonstrates all evidence of doing well and being happy, then it’s simply rude to keep pushing my alternate belief structure on him.
So when an Alan Chambers or Peter Ould says that he is extremely happy with his life, I say “Good for you.” I don’t try to convince him that he’s secretly miserable and doomed to a bad end. I’ll share my own experience–that I too once felt I had successfully adapted to living as a heterosexual, but ultimately that didn’t work for me. Yet I always recognize and try to express that this person’s experience may be different than mine.
What disturbs me is that Christian conservatives are determined to impose their values on me and other gays, in the face of evidence that we are happy and doing well. As a matter of fact, the more stable, happy, and productive we are, the more they get worked up. Look at how determined they are to stop us from getting married, serving in the military, or having civil rights protections for our jobs.
Here’s where I expect the Christian right to defer to my values, just as I will defer to the values of an ex-gay “struggler.” If I say I’m doing well, then leave me alone and don’t try to stop me from living a healthy, normal life.
In my experience, I had to conclude that the second part of that sentence is true in just about any situation.
Even in the case of something as obviously destructive as drug abuse, the person surely knows the harm. I think forcing some sort of intervention contributes more to the satisfaction of my own need to have control, to “fix it” than it does to the welfare of the other person.
It’s not easy to allow others, especially those we care about, to live in a way we think is counter to their well being. But if we will admit it, I don’t think we really have a choice. One must make those decisions for oneself, or significant change is unlikely.
And again, while “tough love” appeals to my desire to force my own will on another’s situation, I’m not sure I have ever believed in it’s value.
Nick,
It may be my mis understanding, but it’s not my impression that this thread is just about ex-gays, but also includes a broader range of “…people whose values require them to remain celibate outside of heterosexual marriage, or who need assistance to reduce unhealthy compulsions or depression?” I imagine there are a few ex-ex-gays floating around who find they got married as ex-gays, decided that ex-gay didn’t work and are now “strugglers” of a sort.
As to the “Christian right defer[ing] to [your] values…by definition, many would consider themselves in league with the devil if they did that. I wonder how many ex-gays make the effort because they want to vs. have to or go to hell? If they cannot defer to their self, they won’t defer to you. That is the crux of that brand of Christianity, conform to the standard they believe from “God” or go to hell.
And again, while “tough love” appeals to my desire to force my own will on another’s situation, I’m not sure I have ever believed in it’s value.
I don’t believe in trying to force anything on anyone, but I’m not going to let someone get away with obviously false statements.
I think you are back to what Steve said now.
According to the J&Y, sexual orientation can be conditioned so that the person goes straight… does it say how??? If it IS conditionable then sexual orientation is fluid… if its fluid then doesnt that make heterosexuality also fluid or is there sum barrier im missing? If the the way to condition is through long, rhetorical treatment then.. isnt that brainwashing(who was it that said if you repeat something enough, ppl start to believe it)? I wonder how gay-christians deal with this? Do they just dismiss anecdotal evidence(like the brainwashing being gods cure) and live through their own filter?
And If gays live in an OS-relationship and be extremely happy(Alan chambers comes to mind), then… whats the purpose of saying that ppl are gay, or not? Have they ever considered that if it happens this way then the reverse might be possible? straights in a SS-relationship. I wonder if you repeat to straights long enough that being with a same-sex is the most satisfying thing, fulfilling and divinely approved, how many will there be ina homo-relationship and say that it is a positive improvement in their life?(Sparta and Greece come to mind)
If gays in OS-relationsips are happy, then isnt it possible that ANY other gay can live in that sort of relationship and be happy too? Doesnt that lend itself to relating the same thing but with straights in SS-relationship? If so… does labeling orientation even have a point?
Steve Schalchlin, this is right on the money. Dialogue needs two people – and exgays don’t dialogue very well. I mean to truly listen to our stories, without trying to change us or covertly uncover your “root”. I’ve given up trying to talk to exgays for this reason – they can be so (unintentionally) rude sometimes. Inhumane even. They are so programed to filter everything into their preconceived idea of what it means to be a “man” or “woman” in the framework of a narrow legalistic Christianity that they just wear themselves out.
Maybe that is the strategy we (as a gay community) should adopt – the one by the Prodigal Father (who’s your daddy?). Let them go their way, and just wear themselves out with all the rules and effort. When they are finally tired of working so hard, we would welcome them back into the fold, no questions asked. It isn’t a matter of if, but when. The hard part comes in welcoming them back, especially if they have done/said hateful things.
My visibility and sympathetic attitude towards exgay PERSONS (not their theology) has put me in the position of “welcoming” a number of exgays back into the world of reality. But it’s never, ever an easy journey because they come out of the exgay vacuum DESPERATELY wanting an intimate connection to another person — since they’ve been living like a starving person at a banquet who’s not allowed to touch the food.
And yes, they are not eager to jump into sex. What they want is intimacy, affection and love. That’s not easy for ANYONE to find, much less someone who has been spending years cutting off all his or her connections to the very people with whom he or she wishes to reconnect.
And they are also leery of “liberal” Christianity because the brain washing of the fundamentalist sects that dominate American Christianity right now go much deeper than simple sexuality. They are in a position of not just trying to free themselves of the “don’t touch/don’t have sex” mind control of the Exodus types, but also of their cult theology. In essence, they are people without a home — like ghosts hovering in the background, without family, without connections, without friends.
What Exodus doesn’t tell them is that once they break away from their natural course of destiny, they have no place to go once they realize they’ve been conned and duped.
I have no problem helping someone who wants to remain celibate and “exgay” if that is their true wish. I have maintained my friendships with many exgays. But I’m far more concerned about helping the ex-exgays who have been cut adrift. Thank god for Peterson and Christine who are concretely helping them with their outreach programs.
Exodus certainly has expressed no concern or use for the people they’ve abused and destroyed. As far as they are concerned, those people can rot in hell. And, for me, that pretty much sums up the entirety of the exgay movement: a cold, political, calculating group of sincere cultists who only love you if you join their group.