Reflecting on observations from the Ex-Gay Survivor Conference, God & Gays wonders why people pay money to the ex-gay movement for harmful goods:
Why not skip the middle man and allow God to guide you? No need to spend money to hear someone say every gay person is gay because they were molested (Melissa Fryear of Exodus) or it’s the father’s fault because he didn’t hug his son enough (Nicolosi from NARTH) or it’s the mom’s fault because she wasn’t a strong role model for her daughter. Why pay someone to do that to you? Why doubt yourself and God’s guidance in your life that much?
Indeed. Since when did God decree Exodus, NARTH and Focus on the Family to be intercessors between Christians and their God?
I was a Christian and had been raised in a fundamental Christian environment (I make a distinction between the two because my decision to become a Christian at age 14 was different from how I was raised). When I first realized I was attracted to the same sex, no one else knew, I kept it secret for all the usual reasons.
It’s hard for me to know clearly all that informed my opinions about ssa at that age, it was the 70’s and ssa was not spoken of in my circles. But, I do know that the bible played a big role. It was pretty clear to me from my own reading of the bible that “a man lying with a man” was verbotten, it was all I needed to know that ssa was against what “God” wanted.
My oldest brother was gay (he was 13 years older than me), but it was never discussed. I became a Christian by reading the bible, I felt God had spoken to me, so reading the bible was a big deal to me. I read it daily, memorized it, carried it everywhere. My faith and belief was very real for me. I went to bible college at 17, studied some Greek, I knew my life was to be a disciple of Christ. I didn’t stay in college beyond a semester because I believed that I didn’t need a school to inform my relationship with God. I didn’t go to a secular college because I was intent on “seeking the kingdom of God first, and his righteousness” and believed that my necessities would “be added to me.” I was pretty serious about my faith.
So, this statement of Mike’s “Since when did God decree Exodus, NARTH and Focus on the Family to be intercessors between Christians and their God?” really resonates with me. I had always felt that way about my relationship with God.
When I was 19, I confessed my ssa to my church. I knew I wasn’t changing and it was clear to me that God did not want me thus, so I figured that my not changing was because of pride and an unwillingness to confess this “sin.” So I mustered the courage to “confess” my ssa. Everyone gathered around me and prayed, “bound the enemy” and it was never mentioned again…until a few weeks after my marriage at 21 when I told my wife (who had been present when I originally “confessed”) that I still struggled with ssa. I was confident (apparently, I did marry after all), even after 7 years of struggling with ssa on my own as a teen conflicted by his Christian beliefs. She was devasted and I realized it was just me and God, that she could not be an ally in my fight.
Sorry, this is becoming a book. I didn’t invite someone else into the struggle until I was 32. That was my first encounter with Exodus.
For 35 years I have struggled against my ssa. Half the time it was just me and “God” the other half it was with other Christians, all Exodus or their recommendations. Ironically, I am now having the most success with just me on my own.
Given my own history, this is my take. I don’t see Exodus, NARTH or Focus as “intercessors” between me and God. I don’t think I ever have. Maybe I should have seen that’s the function they often assume, they do set themselves up as authorities on “God” as regards ssa. There is a biblical test for “prophets,” that if what they say doesn’t come to pass, they are false. I guess the same test could be applied to anyone who speaks for “God.” What they said didn’t come to pass for me, and I figure 18 years was a good try on my part, especially since I had tried much of what they dictate for 17 years before we met.
Are you suggesting that God may have the inclination, and perhaps even a vested interest in helping us to discern between God, and self-proclaimed authorities on God?
Emproph,
Not sure if your question is directed towards me, and I wonder if you ask it tongue in cheek?
I should qualify that I no longer say I know the God of the bible, but I am still fluent in the language of fundamental Christianity.
Sure, the bible states that we have no need that any man should teach us because the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth.
But just from a logical standpoint, if a person did not have individual discernment about God, from God, then the person with the best skills of persuasion would win and the truth would not necessarily be a factor. The problem is substantiating that the conclusions reached about God are indeed from God.
I presume that you’re going to be covering this story – https://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56487
Yes, Peter, we just discovered that story this morning on various blog feeds. Thanks for the additional heads-up.
Considering that he’s an editor, he writes horribly. But then I never read his magazine, so perhaps he always has.
HI Emproph!
Good to meet you at the BXG conference!
My comment to these middlemen is straightforward enough.
Epiphanies and walks with God are at their most profound, I think…when done in private and alone.
It IS a tremendously intense thing, I know. But so is self awareness and discovery. And to deny yourself that self discovery and loving it….wouldn’t THAT be the offense to God?
He knocks on your heart, and another person, with designs on separating you from that experience and can’t speak for you…..tells you not to answer except in THEIR way?
God is doing it for free…..
And THEY are demanding money….and a total submission that even God isn’t demanding.
Hmmmmm….
Regan, many thanks for bringing the conversation back on topic. I’m sorry I missed you at the conference.
The best way to learn how to live as a godly Christian man:
* Read your Bible — “the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus”
* Pray for wisdom — James 1:5
* Worship with a faithful church — Hebrews 10:25
* Establish accountability with faithful, committed Christian men (preferably elders in the church) — not people who share your same temptations and weaknesses
Sonja, XGW is not your pulpit and this is entirely off topic. I told you when you started commenting here that your reputation at other blogs preceded you and that we would have zero tolerance for troll like behavior from you.
We don’t have time to cater to those who are interested in disruption, not honest debate. Please do not comment here anymore.
I’ll see your book, and raise you…
Paul, sorry for the confusion. I thought I was going to be the first post, but then it took me awhile to perfect that sentence – so then when I saw your reply, I didn’t know how to change it to fit in. Long story short, it was directed toward the original post, and yes, it was tongue in cheek 🙂
But I appreciate all that you’ve shared. Had I known of the emotional depth of your story I would have planned things differently, or not at all… 🙂
___
Back to original point/post:
I’ve brought that up on several occasions when arguing with Christians of the dogmatic variety – that clearly God is aware of our arguments right here and right now, and was so before the Bible was written, and STILL chose not to clarify it in the Bible, so why not just ask God directly? It’s one of those suggestions that rarely gets a reply back.
It’s so obvious when you think about it. To bicker (with dogmatic Christians) over “what God meant,” when at least one thing agreed upon is that God is everywhere and aware of everything – yet I argue with them as though God/Jesus (et al/ etc.) are not in the room!
Point being, if God is everywhere, and in control of all, then the only “interpretation” of the reality of flawed-authorities-on-God would be that God is directly accessible to us all, all the time. (assuming you believe that a conscious God exists 🙂
{Hey Regan !!! (soul in pocket, see you on the net)}
__
That’s how I see the second coming of Christ. It’s happening from the inside out – The tipping point of the kingdom of God within, realizing itself en masse.
If God is truly Love, then God would NEVER allow the need for a book or authority figure to commune us back to it. Even what we know about Jesus is refletive of the behavior of this attitude. UNconditional Love.
To trust in the middleman – the interpretation of love – would be idolatry. Thus the command to “have no other God before me,” and to “love God with all thy heart mind and soul.”
It’s the only sin there is, to forget to love Loving first. And if you believe that, then the only sin there is, is the belief in sin. The Original sin.
The trick seems to be in wrapping your brain around the truth of the magnitude of a God who is always and only Love. Even as expressed in the Bible.
So maybe that’s the question, do they truly believe that God is Love? Because only a God of Love would allow you to question it.
And to take that further, wouldn’t the question necessarily be the questioning of God’s own capacity to love itself? — technically the ultimate blasphemy (Jesus/Salvation – Bible/proof etc.).
And to everyone who’s not faith identified, please know that I’m aware that I’m projecting my own idea of truth here.
Emproph,
Thanks for acknowledging me, I’ve been feeling like a leper. 🙂
I like your “idea of truth” in that it puts love at the center. I find “love” to be a hard thing to argue with (nor would I want to, I like love). My sticking point is knowing what love is at any given point. If we rely on our reason to define love, then it is influenced by ‘who’ we are. I like the idea of an all knowing, all loving God who can inform our love at any given moment. The problem for me is, I cannot honestly say I know the difference between my imagination and “God.” In biblical Christianity, Jesus is the “middleman” between “God” and people, and the Holy Spirit is “called alongside to help,” etc.? Without an actual physical presence standing before each of us stating “do this,” it seems we are left to our own devices.
I understand the fundamentalist approach to God. There is a frustration of “relationship” without something tangible to inform (be a “middleman”) about God. Fundamentalists have tried to make the bible the “middleman”…sort of. It becomes clear very quickly that the bible must be interpreted, however, and there’s the rub. Fundamentalist Christian’s often speak of “relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit,” but, that “relationship” bears no resemblance to anything most people would call “relationship.” As a matter of fact, if we were talking anything but “God,” we would be put away in an asylum if we said many of the things we say about God.
That’s some good stuff leper, I mean Paul. Oh, and check out the Soulforce forums if you haven’t yet. Some of us love talking about this stuff.
I think that that doubt is the pith of it.
I’m convinced that I perceive a recognizable “snap” of truth, when it happens. But that’s after a lifetime of practice in conjunction with MUCH cheating. lol.
But your points are very well taken as far as the need to perceive the oneness of God through a “middleman” of sorts, namely Jesus.
Jesus being the example of the reflection of unconditional love in physical matter.
Even I ascribe to that. But the crucifixion for me is ongoing. Jesus as Christ (if true) represents the Holy Spirit of God in matter — and that’s us, all of us — and the “cross” between spirit and matter that we must “take up.”
God = Everything
Son = creation of the “father.”
Holy spirit = Relationship between the two.
That would seem to be the conundrum, but then who gave us our own devices to be left with and why? 🙂
Emproph,
I’m feeling guilty that, in my efforts to connect, I’ve gotten away from the original question that Mike asked, or at least really stretched it. Thanks for the invite to soulforce, I’ve been afraid I might be to infidelish for that place.
I am interested in your statement: “I’m convinced that I perceive a recognizable “snap” of truth, when it happens.” I guess it was something similar with me that kept me a “Christian” for 35 years, I couldn’t shake the “snap.” Nor can I define it or latch onto it well enough to say I am wholly or much guided by ‘it’ either. I’d hate to get to heaven and find out the “snap” was something I had eaten and I had used God’s name in vain.
Mike’s original query used the word “intercessors.” It seems that we people often want to at least have some palpable affirmation that we are on the right track. People like NARTH, Exodus, Focus on the Family readily assume the role of speaking for God, giving God a much sought after form.
I don’t know. Darwin? Okay, I confess, I still pray, but to a very undefined “God,” so I cannot answer the “who gave” question.
Did anyone happen to catch Melissa Fryrears on CNN the other night? She was telling an audience of “praise away the gays” how red-headed men just “do it for her” and “get her heart a-thumpin’.” I couldn’t figure out who she was trying convince – the audience or herself.