Positive Portrayals of Transgender People Seen As Promoting Sin
Federal legislation on expanding hate crimes to include violent attacks against individuals on the basis of “gender, sexual orientation and gender identity” is currently being reviewed by the Senate. Christians have strongly voiced opposition to the expansion, arguing that the bill could silence believers who view homosexuality as sinful. That also applies to the transgender.–Lillian Kwon, Christian Post Staff Writer
Lillian Kwon recently wrote an article for the Christian Post entitled Media Bias on Transgenders Raising Concerns. The concern, expressed by Dr. Robert Gagnon, Peter LaBarbera and Kwon, is that there are portrayals in the first place, and that these portrayals are often positive.
Dr. Robert Gagnon, associate professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, is quoted in the article as claiming that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 contains a prohibition against transgenderism:
Alluding to Scripture (1 Corinthians 6:9-10), Gagnon quoted Apostle Paul listing persons who will “not inherit the kingdom of God.” The list includes the “effeminate” or “soft men,” which is essentially the closest thing to transgenderism, Gagnon pointed out.
Noted Yale historian John Boswell, in his book Christianity, Social Tolerance, And Homosexuality (p. 106,107) said this about the passage Dr. Gagnon quoted:
There are three passages in the writings of Paul which have been supposed to deal with homosexual relations. Two words in I Corinthians 6:9 and one in I Timothy 1:10 have been taken at least since the early twentieth century to indicate that “homosexuals” will be excluded from the kingdom of heaven.The first of the two, “” (basically, “soft”), is an extremely common Greek word; it occurs elsewhere in the New Testament with the meaning “sick” and in patristic writings with senses as varied as “liquid,” “cowardly,” “refined,” “weak willed,” “delicate,” “gentle,” and “debauched.” In a specifically moral context it very frequently means “licentious,” “loose,” or “wanting in self-control.” At a broad level, it might be translated as either “unrestrained” or “wanton,” but to assume that either of these concepts necessarily applies to gay people is wholly gratuitous. The word is never used in Greek to designate gay people as a group or even in reference to homosexual acts generically, and it often occurs in writings contemporary with the Pauline epistles in reference to heterosexual persons or activity.
Dr. Dale Martin, in Arsenokoités and Malakos: Meanings and Consequences, adds the following:
The term malakos occurs repeatedly in the Pseudo-Aristotelian Physiognomy, a book that tells how to recognize someone’s character by body type and body language, including whether a man is really effeminate even if he outwardly appears virile. The word never refers specifically to penetration in homosexual sex (although men who endure it are discussed in the book). Rather, it denotes the feminine, whether the reference is to feet, ankles, thighs, bones, flesh, or whatever (see esp. chap. 6 passim). It always represents the negative female characteristic to which the positive masculine characteristic is contrasted. For example, if a man has weak eyes, it means one of two things: either he is malakos and thLlu or he is a depressive and lacks spirit (808a10). Each option contains a pair of synonyms: just as “depressive” and “lacking spirit” (katLphLs, athymos) are synonyms, so are malakos and thLlu, both referring to effeminacy. Malakia, therefore, was a rather broad social category. It included, of course, penetrated men, but many others besides. To put it simply, all penetrated men were malakoi, but not all malakoi were penetrated men.27
In fact, malakos more often referred to men who prettied themselves up to further their heterosexual exploits. In Greco-Roman culture, it seems generally to have been assumed that both men and women would be attracted to a pretty-boy. And boys who worked to make themselves more attractive, whether they were crying to attract men or women, were called effeminate. An old hag in a play by Aristophanes drags off a young man, saying, “Come along, my little softie” (malakion), although she has perfectly heterosexual things in mind (Ecclesiazusae 1058). The Roman playwright Plautus uses the Latin transliteration malacus to indicate effeminate men. But whereas in one comedy the term is cinaedus malacus, referring to a penetrated man, in another it is moechus malacus, referring to a man who seduces other men’s wives (Miles Gloriosus 3.1 [1.668]; Truculentus2.7.49 [1.610]).
Dr. Gagnon’s use of I Corinthians 6:9-10 here seems to be unsettled and questionable, at the very least.
Dr. Gagnon continues:
But, as Gagnon mentioned, many argue that this is not something transgenders have asked for. Studies have shown that a transwoman (male-to-female) tends to have a female-sized BSTc (central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis) in the brain.”The argument basically is that that particular portion of the brain that has to do with sexual identity is more female-like in males who become transgendered and more male-like in females who go from a female to male,” said Gagnon, who has debated on the transgender issue. “In a sense, you’re saying because of one minute portion of the brain, but not the total brain, [that] will be the decisive factor in overriding one’s sex. And that’s the problem.
No, the problem is that Dr. Gagnon, a theologian and not a scientist, sees sex and gender and binary dichotomies. I won’t reargue it here, but I have argued that there is a scientific problem with viewing sex and gender as fixed dichotomies.
Dr. Gagnon has his own credibility problems as well. Gagnon’s book (The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics) contains thirteen direct references to Paul Cameron’s work, including two appeals to Cameron’s pedophilia “study” (pgs. 412, 479-80), one to his 1983 survey (pg. 419) and one to his lifespan myth (pg. 472). He also references The Gay Report (pg. 457) and the Bell And Weinberg study (pgs. 419-20, 453, 457) as if they were scientific studies, and in general displays a tendency to accept, with few or no reservations, any data that appear to support his arguments, while dismissing anyone who disagrees with him as “dogmatic.”
Finally, Dr. Robert Gagnon says that the media is trying to normalize transgenderism. To an extent, he’s correct in his assumption. Transgender people have begun watching what is said about them in the media (including the article reviewed here) and writing to media outlets or writing commentaries when the portrayals are inaccurate, when transgender terminology is used that isn’t in compliance with the transgender entry in the Associated Press Stylebook; and/or GLAAD Media Guide, and in the case of fictional characters, when they are portrayed as comic foils or one-dimensional villains.
What civil rights leader Bayard Rustin said about the gay community in 1986 is true for the LGB and T community now:
[T]he job of the gay community is not to deal with extremists who would castigate us or put us on an island and drop an H-bomb on us. The fact of the matter is that there is a small percentage of people in America who understand the true nature of the homosexual community. There is another small percentage who will never understand us. Our job is not to get those people who dislike us to love us. Nor was our aim in the civil rights movement to get prejudiced white people to love us. Our aim was to try to create the kind of America, legislatively, morally, and psychologically, such that even though some whites continued to hate us, they could not openly manifest that hate. That’s our job today: to control the extent to which people can publicly manifest antigay sentiment.
Eugene Wagner contributed significantly to this article.
With all the studying of the bible – people will always interpret what they interpret. We have a difficult enough time communicating using modern english. Suffice to say, some see it one way and others see it another way.
What I do, before going to extra-biblical sources for the meaning of certain Koine Greek words, is look for the same Greek words elsewhere in the Greek New Testament.
Jesus used the word “malakos” to describe the kind of soft clothing worn by those who lived in kings’ palaces as opposed to how his cousin, John the Baptist, was dressed in rough primitive clothing. See Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25.
The 1611 KJV translated malakoi as “effeminate.” Well, that word in the early 17th Century was used for those who lived a soft, cushiony life and did no have to work for a living. It had no connection with a person’s gender. Sort of like the folks who hang out with British royalty in modern times.
But, folks like Gagnon only use the male gender spelling of the word arsenokoites when defining it.
But, in both 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10, the word is spelled, in Greek, arsenokoitai. Some experts in Koine Greek whom I have talked to say that the ai suffix of the word means it is feminine plural. It is not men who bed (koit) a male (arseno), it is women who bed a male. Such a woman would not be committing adultery or be a prostitute, but a single one who sleeps around with just anybody.
In the research which I have done on the word arsenokoites or even arsenokoitai, Paul was the only known person to put the word into writing before or during the 1st Century AD. Apparently, he coined the word himself.
So those who claimed support in scripture for slavery, and later for lesser rights for African Americans, this would have also been your advice to them?
I am definitely opposed to Christians who don’t want to see any positive depictions of GLBT people. What do they want? For us to return to the days when the only depictions of trans individuals were of psychopaths and serial killers (think “Silence of the Lambs,” or even the teen slasher flick “Sleepaway Camp.”) Putting differences in belief and Biblical interpretation aside, what’s wrong with depicting human beings as, well, human?
And this may be off topic, but I’m genuinely curious. Let’s say a man or woman has fully transitioned to the opposite sex, but then has a shift in beliefs. What do Christians propose to do with him or her? Is there such a thing as “ex-trans” therapy? I hope that doesn’t sound rude. I’m just wondering about whethor or not Exodus has anything planned for such a situation.
Mary, have you considered that your viewpoint exemplifies moral relativism or worse, amorality? I hope you’ll reconsider.
Detranssitioning is part of the Ex-Transgender story. A good film with a detransitioned male-to-female-to-male character (Jennifer / Josef) is Almost Myself, by the same documentarian who made Fish Can’t Fly.
Also Jay, one used to be able to read detransitioning stories at Reality Resorses — And Exodus Intertantional affiliated ministry — but their website appears to be down. I don’t know if it will be coming back up. You can read Jerry Leach’s story (the president and only counselor of Reality Resourses) of detransition at Campus Crusade For Christ’s LeadershipU.
Sy Roger’s ex-transgender story is at StonewallRevisited.com, as well as Randall Wayne’s story, and the story of deceased ex-transgender Perry Desmond is at Campus Crusade For Christ’s LeadershipU website.
Crosswalk has a now discredited story up on their website entitled Nature, Nurture, And When It All Goes Awry — Yosef Kirtchner now knows he was born with an intersex condition.
I personally went through what would now be an early form of conversion (or reparative) therapy back in the late 1970’s for being transgender – not for being gay. So you can call me an ex-ex-transgender or ex-ex-transsexual. 🙂
While they don’t want to tell you the whole truth, most of what you find on crosswalk.com that is either a blog or an editorial usually has to agree with the doctrines of the Southern Baptist Convention, aka the Southern Baptist church. Every SBC website has Salem Communications as its internet service provider.
The “Christian” news services which crosswalk uses is, IMO, are editorialized news. Sometimes what is in those news websites is not exactly the same thing as is found in the actual AP or local paper news sources.
I have met a few Intersex persons. One of them let me know about the Intersex Society of North America.
My best friend, Ken, has Klinefelter’s Syndrome. He has undescended testicles. He has to take shots to make himself appear more masculine. Medicare refused to do a “breast reduction” when he got to be retired age. But, he had to have surgery on his chest to remove growths under there over a year ago. If they had gone ahead and operated when they could have done the surgery to remove what made his chest look like a female, I don’t think he would have had to have the later surgery.
I put him in contact with the Intersex person who could tell him more about what he needed to know. He doesn’t have a computer and I did not want to have to print out all he needed to know. His condition does have an effect on his physical health.
I’d like to see more written here on Robert Gagnon. He is considered the go-to Bible expert on homosexuality among evangelical Christians in mainline denominations. Teaching at a respected seminary (Pittsburgh Theological) gives him a lot of credance, unfortunately. The extensive writings on his website (robgagnon.net) have always given me the impression that he protests way too much. He comes across IMO as irrational and at times just plain mean.
I receive a “Daily Manna” from the International Bible Society, IBS, each morning. This is what Paul wrote and it is in the New International Reader’s Version® (NIrV, 1996). You can find out more about it at this link: http://www.ibs.org/bibles/nirv/index.php
I thought this was interesting in regard to what Peter wrote about Paul.
Dear friends, I know you are looking forward to that. So try your best to be found pure and without blame. Be at peace with God. Remember that while our Lord is waiting patiently to return, people are being saved. Our dear brother Paul also wrote to you about that. God made him wise to write as he did. He writes the same way in all his letters. He speaks about what I have just told you. His letters include some things that are hard to understand. People who don’t know better and aren’t firm in the faith twist what he says. They twist the other Scriptures too. So they will be destroyed. Dear friends, you already know that. So be on your guard. Then you won’t be led down the wrong path by the mistakes of people who don’t obey the law. You won’t fall from your safe position. Grow in the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Get to know him better. Give him glory both now and forever. Amen. NIRV compare with 2 Peter 3:14-18 NIV
I find this interesting:
I say that sometimes only the original readers of what Paul wrote in his Letters, aka Epistles, understood exactly what he was writing about. Most of the recipients of his Letters had already met him in person. As far as I know, any Letter which might have been addressed to Peter was either unknown or rejected by the early church fathers of Christian Orthodoxy who canonized the first official Bible for their churches.
I know one of the “detransitioned” people from un-reality resources. She was a young transwoman who was under massive pressure from her fundamentalist parents to remain male and who was being blackmailed over college funding. She was going to school on the opposite coast and talked to RR and told them what they wanted to hear. It managed to buy her the last two semesters of college.
Last I heard she was living happily with a boyfriend and starting a career. As a woman, of course.
I am curious. What do those in the ex-gay/change movement believe that malakoi really means? What specific behavior(s) do they think this Greek word is describing as worthy of Hell? If it really means “effeminate” — what exactly is being prohibited here? Wouldn’t effeminate vary from culture to culture and time to time? Keep in mind, our nations’s macho forefathers wore powdered wigs, lace and silk pants…
An interesting article! Personally I couldn’t care less what Christian’s believe, although I do object to their constant attempts at imposing their beliefs on others. Aside from that, I find the constant use of the ‘transgender’ term to describe transsexuals as highly offensive.
Mike, I know how that can be interpeted. Honestly, I get tired of the bible debates. They have been going on as long as the “Holy” words have been around. The Jews were divided, then came the christians and the christians are divided. That people have relative morality and they do – no doubt – but it’s not going to stop. I mean, are you a Calvinist or a Wesleyan? Are you a Catholic or a Protestant? And on and on it goes. I guess we will all find out in the end. Until that time, …. well, it really is a personal relationship and it really is just between God and myself.
I am not promoting hatred, violence, or cruelty towards any person or group of people. The bible is not to be used that way – in my opinion.
This is not a major point of the article, but…
There hasn’t been any commentary on the reason given for Christians objecting:
Whether you agree with someone’s point of view or not, is it valid to consider that federal legislation might wrongly force silence? That will never change anyone’s attitude. If the real goal of the LGBT community is to eliminate inaccurate stereotypes, is expanding the reach of hate crime legislation the right vehicle?
If you can’t talk about it without fear of criminal reprisal, you won’t have much of a dialog.
As we’ve discussed on other pages of this site, the federal legislation is explicitly worded to cover violent felonies and nothing else.
I agree that some local and state hate-crime laws are overly broad or misused by zealous prosecutors, but just as Mary (above) gets tired of Bible debates, I get really tired of so-called Christians’ outright lies about the federal legislation.
You may legitimately oppose the federal legislation based on your belief that intent behind VIOLENT CRIME should not affect sentencing for VIOLENT CRIME, if you like. But Exodus, Focus, FRC, and the AFA are lying — sinning — every time they claim the federal legislation can have any impact whatsoever on nonviolent actions such as speech. Read the legislation for yourself, then demonstrate that it has anything to do with speech.
Good point MIke – lying about the wording of legislation is sinning – false witnessing.
The conservative elements that oppose the legislation are not interested in truth. They are interested in “winning”.
We see them consistently abandon all pretenses of factuality when arguing gay issues. It’s a sad fact of current politics. No one really expects their politicians to be truthful, as long as their side wins.
As pathetic as that is, what is worse is that those who set themselves up a moral guardians have now abdicated their “role” and have now gleefully joined in the political game of deceipt and spin and outright lies to advance their political agenda.
They don’t see the tragic irony. In an effort to create a “more moral world”, they’ve created one in which no one is left to stand against lying and cheating and destroying your “enemy”. In an effort to create a society ruled by the principles of Christianity, they had to abandon the principles of Christ.
I think it would be a very good idea if someone with the time went over robgagnon.net with the same scrutiny that NARTH, Exodus and the other sites have witnessed. If Gagnon is quoting hate groups for his factual backing, or has other zany ideas, such as the “slavery was a good thing for blacks” and “persecution is good for gender variant children” kind of thinking that some NARTH contributors had, it would be most useful to let those quoting him as a source know the full extent of his beliefs.
The reason I asked about what people on the “change” side of this debate think malakoi means is that they seem VERY sure that they KNOW what “arsenokoitai” means (gay sex) but they never get around to explaining what “effemincy” is or why such people deserve eternal torment. I am not looking for a debate — I just am really curious as to what they think it means…
Michael Bussee Said:
I would say that some of their excuses come from blindly trusting the translating committees without even knowing the backgrounds of the translators or knowing which church denominations paid for the translations. The King James Version Only (KJVO) folks believe that since the word Authorized is on the title page of their Bibles, God Himself authorized it and no other translation has been approved by God.
And some think that if the word “Holy” is on the cover and title pages of their Bibles, the whole book has to be the WORD of God. They are also wish to remain ignorant of the fact that the Hebrew Scripture texts did not have vowel points added for “pronunciation purposes” until around the 6th Century AD. The actual “holy” word, kodesh, in the Hebrew only has 3 letters and no vowels. But, their Hebrew-English lexicons might “transliterate” the word with a double “d” in the word when there is only one of them. It was the (Jewish) Masoretes who added the vowel points and they used vowel points for the letters for translations based on their traditions.
If men appeared dressed in public in modern times, like our US founding forefathers did in the 18th and early 19th Centuries, they would accuse them of being effeminate because real men don’t dress like that. If you look at paintings and drawings contemporary to the time of those early US leaders and how their tight silk pants fit, you might ask, “Why aren’t they wearing underwear?”
Thanks for all the info, Autumn! I look forward to looking into that side of the issue. I’m certainly interested in seeing the stuff from Campus Crusade. I’m very involved with them at my school but have not as of yet looked into any of their views on GLBT issues. Thanks again!
I think it is just so beyond the pale, that these allegedly cristian people build a whole mountain of hate on the back of one or two verses of dubious clarity, while ignoring the weightier matters of love and justice. What was that about swallowing camels while straining out the gnats?
At a recent Courage UK meeting in London (this is Jeremy Mark´s former ex-gay program that is now gay-affirming) I presented some ideas around my research into transgender, genderqueer and gender different people in the Bible. An ex-gay attended and wrote in his blog (http://ntgbr07.blogspot.com/2007/05/tranny-carrying-jar-of-water.html) that he felt the material was the most blasphemous thing he had ever heard.
The play not only looks at these folks who trangress gender roles in the Bible, but is also based on interviews with trans, genderqueer and gender different people I am meeting in my travels this past year. My purpose is to have the Bible read us and give a place to look at trans issues today while unearthing possible trans Biblical characters.
In hearing Sarah Jones, a transgender MTF priest in the church of England, speak recently at the Greenbelt festival, I was reminded of the fact that we all start out in the womb as female. Then through a series of processes some of us transition in the womb from female to male. Also, some do not fully make the transition.
Looking at it I would think that trans issues are easier to accept than even gay issues. Some us of just don´t conform to gender norms no mater what we do. Also, since 1 in 1000 children are born intersex, one would think that the concept that gender is not fixed or always easily determined would be something that is a given.
But gender issues create a great stir, not only among conservative Christians, but even gays and lesbians. Many of us have wondered at the personal ads with “straight acting masculine gay man seeking the same.” What is a straight-acting gay man? One with a wife and children? No, it is about gender and our perceptions of what gender is and how it is displayed and what is valuable and what is not.
The most controversial line in any of my plays is a line from Queer 101 which once said, has offended some so deeply that they stomp out of the theater.
In talking about the very possible love affair between Gilgamesh and Enkidu in the ancient epic poem Gilgamesh as well as two-spirit people in some First Nation native American cultures, my professor Meadow´s character states,
In a post modern world where everything that can be shaken is being shaken and questioned and deconstructed, some people want to hold onto what that think is written in stone. That life has always been as simple as gender normative heterosexuals building monogamous nuclear families. If anyone wishes to blow apart that myth, just read the Bible. Some of the Bible “heroes” do not represent the sort of families that the Religious Right would like us to spotlight.
The two-spirit people in some First Nation cultures are usually in Canada. The “Indians” north of the Canadian-USA border are generally referred to as First Nation peoples.
The two-spirit people in Native American cultures are those who live in the USA.
I am considered to be a Two-Spirit because I am openly gay and a member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, CNO. I was active in the Tulsa Two-Spirit Support Group when it was officially sponsored by Tulsa Indian Health Care Resource Center.
While the current Tribal Council of the CNO is not pro-gay, especially pro same-sex marriages (the Baptists member are “agin it”), there is an oral tradition among the Cherokees that a mother who has a gay or lesbian child is blessed by the Creator(s). It is interesting that this Council is rather two-faced in being against gays getting married because their church denominations don’t approve of it, while at the same time, they have no problems with tribal owned smoke shops, bingo parlors and even resort Casinos where there are nightclubs which sell alcoholic beverages, shops that sell tobacco products and of course, promotes gambling, too. The Southern Baptist Convention has that all of that is contrary to SBC doctrines.
The historical Two-Spirit persons of various Native American Tribes were often just represented by only one man who usually wore women’s clothing OVER men’s trousers. Historians and anthropologists mistaken called the Berdaches. But, the origin of Berdache is Persian and means “boy kept for sexual purposes.”
The Western Historical artist and writer, George Catlin, painted/drew quick sketches of what he saw in the Native Culture in the Old West. While the sketches are accurate as to what he actually saw, his descriptions of what he saw are not. Tulsa’s Gilcrease Museum has a large collection of Catlin’s original art. I like to visit it and take my time doing it. One day, a tour guide was talking to a group about Catlin and he fact that he did not always understand what he was painting. I told her when she was taking them to the next gallery that I was glad she told them that.
Gilcrease: The Museum of the Americas
I have read quite few stories about well-known Two-Spirits. In a late 20th Century story, a Two-Spirit of a certain SW Tribe told a visitor to his home that he had a public image of being effeminate which gave him status in the community. But, in the privacy of his own home, he was neither effeminate nor passive. He was manly in private. He told his guest not to let that information leave his home.
“while dismissing anyone who disagrees with him as “dogmatic.””
I’m sorry, but isn’t that what you do? He provides research, and all you can do is complain. Jim Burroway dismisses me away as being Paul Cameron himself, and won’t even let me answer his accusations against me or post substantiated information on his site, but rather dismisses them as “exhaustive arguments” and refuses to allow them to appear. Here’s a clue, if someone has so much research against you that you have to walk away, maybe you’re in the wrong in the first place.
My “unsubstantial” comments.
Lymphogranuloma Venereum (LGV):
Atlanta: The CDC announced that a new sexually transmitted disease, Lymphogranuloma venereum, has broken out among gays in Europe. It warned that it will shortly spread here. This new disease causes genital ulcers, swollen lymph glands, flulike symptoms, gastrointestinal bleeding, and inflammation of the rectum and colon. It is difficult to diagnosis but can be treated with antibiotics. Yet another gift of homosexual sex. ( Reuters 10/30/04)
Atlanta: The CDC announced that drug-resistant gonorrhea is on the rise among gays. Among straight men, the rate increased from 0.2% in 2002 to 0.4% in 2003; among gays from 1.8% to 4.9%. Injectable drugs must be used to cure the disease, and where the injection goes depends upon whether the “person is infected in the mouth, anus, or penis” said the CDC’s Dr. John Douglas. He believes the germ was imported to the West coast from Hawaii by male homosexuals, and is being marched toward the East coast by the same pleasure seekers. (Washington Blade 5/7/04)
Phillips, as your second post demonstrates, the problem with all of Cameron’s “research” is that a first year science student can shred the laughably poor methodology in about ten seconds. Garbage doesn’t magically become something other than garbage just because you have a lot of it. The very link you provided refuted claims you made in the post. LGV isn’t “new,” it’s just gotten a little more common in some areas. Come on, if you’re going to lie, at least make it a little harder to figure out.
When HIV “broke out” around ’83, it also wasn’t “new”, just in the sense that it was a “new” widespread problem. Now, do you see what I mean in that all you can against your opposition is nit-pick?
Nit pick what, exactly? All you posted was that there are STDs, plus gratuitous slaps like “Yet another gift of homosexual sex.” Ok, we know there are STDs. What’s your point? Box Turtle Bulletin among many other places have already destroyed Cameron’s inept “studies.” What have you provided of substance to actually critique? Yes, we get it, you really really really don’t like gay people. So what?
I apologize if I wasn’t clear enough Phillips. You aren’t welcome to post here anymore. I suggest you behave yourself at Dr. Throckmorton’s blog, as he is the only one left at the moment willing to (barely) tolerate your bizarre obsessions.
Psh, I was surprised you didn’t boot me from the start. I must not have been concise enough in my truthiness at first.
Box Turtle Bulletin takes advantage of the fact that FRI has to work with what they have. No government organization will include questions on sexuality except for the few they’ve done trying to gauge the % of you there are. Ever since their 1996 drug survey they stopped flat. Thus, the scope of the data FRI can obtain (e.g. their obituary studies) is limited. Their last release was quite thorough, however, though with the usual variables that accompany any scientific study – all included in FRI’s document (which is what you’re supposed to do in real science, that’s what differentiates science from propaganda – that and whether or not your conclusion matches the data in a reasonable way). All Frisch could do was ad hominem, and Warren and Jim simply pointed out the limitations of the data. Complain, complain.
Well, this’ll be my last post since I’ve run out of IP addresses for you to block. I pass my wishes out for those naive enough to come under the wing of the culture of propaganda you have bred.
Someone in your profession Phillips could certainly find other IP addresses. In your line of work, I am sure if you used the same standard for finding conclusions as you have in this discussion, you would run into serious difficulty. Science does not say, hey we only have half the data we need to make a conclusion, so let’s guess at it, and make a dogmatic conclusion via a press release. That would appear to be what FRI excells at. On the contrary, if we don’t have sufficient data, we say: we don’t know and then we look for ways to find the proper data.
I left that post up to illustrate the kind of person you have shown yourself to be, Phillips. For most, simply letting them know they are no longer welcome is enough for them to stop posting – we are adults after all. But you have no respect for anyone here nor appreciation for the fact that you were given a couple of months to make your case. Debate by exhaustion and distraction is a game for those who have nothing to offer and will not be tolerated here indefinitely.
I suggest you create your own blog, attach it to your company website and let your clients see how you behave.
i am a changed ex trans who had breasts remove i have been to hell and back even been rejected by my family and have even loss jobs . there is a thing call being ex .ihave even been talked down by m,any chruch going folks for all the ex trans hold your head up.
I was a transsexual female prior to 1998.
In that year I had tissues of my breasts removed while gaining surmountable weight and scarred my pretty face with bleach for a more masculine look. Testerone injections was also pumped into my body.
I went out by 2000 talking in a rougher tone of voice, and blend in into any male activity possible. I was instantly accepted back into the church and family. But I could not accept myself and went into a period of severe depression.
Beneath the mask, I am still a girl if you take into account the whole shell. God do not place you in this world and ask you to be somebody you are not to please him.
He presented me with a new name, and by 2006, I re-transitioned. In my 30s now, I finally have my new lease in life.
Human beings will forever find heaven in pleasing other people, or finding validation and affirmation from other people instead of ones self. I found it in Christ and myself. Life may be hell for me now, but at least I live as who God knows, and I know, I am; not what people assume I should be.
I would not call myself an ex-ex-transsexual, rather I would call myself a boy who had always been a girl.
Who were you trying to please by transitioning? I understood that, at least here (US) there was an extensive process, psych evaluations, dry runs, etc. Did you go through all of that?
The few times I’ve check on the subject, I’ve not been able to find any significant reversal or post transition remorse stats. What little I found was low but I can’t say they were authoritative. I would like to have more solid info on that if someone knows of it.
But I’m still curious, who were you trying to please, YukiChoe? Thanks for sharing.
Testerone was like poison to my body, it overpowered my body and self and spirit in everyway, appearing through my skin. It was like an internal alien invasion half way through my puberty.
So by this you would understand my transition was not to please anybody, but rather to allign my body to my heart and mind with a different blood. I am able to just be myself in society without burdens during my first transition, confident of myself, of who I am and what I am doing.
I detransitioned because I felt no one accepts me as a girl. I had been counselled by the church whom eventually gave up on me and claimed I was not a true Christian, rejected by my parents who I love very much, turned away by my closest friends and unable to look for a decent job. I was a bit fortunate I had a good boyfriend, but was left to fend for myself in the end. Life for me was becoming a nightmare, so being a boy was the only way out.
I felt tired in the end of putting the “male persona”. It was hard to carry on boy-acting to please my friends and my family for so many years. I felt orphaned by my own body. Soon, I realised my pretence had become bad habits I never wanted to have in my life, like they way I eat.
I felt sick everytime I go about another “performance”. I cried myself to sleep at night. I am losing who I am. I became just an illusion, an mirage I created from a mixture of Richard Gere and a host of other man’s man. I backslided totally because I knew very well I was cheating God. So I decided before it is too late, I do not wish to deny who I am anymore. I re-transitioned back to who I had always been. Friends will come and go. Family members will pass on. Churches are just a place for people who seek comfort. Jobs are a few but still available. Only God and me is for a lifetime.
About the extensive process, or I think you mean treatments for transsexuals in Malaysia; there are several hospitals like the Pantai Indah Hospital, who are offering treatment for transsexuals. Sadly, such hospitals only offers a psychologist and a Gynaecologist for transsexuals, and offers no assistance during the Real Life Test. There are no specialist or medical professionals in HRT available.
What options we do have are pharmacies for hormones and some general doctors for injections. For the few of us with strong educational background, we usually do our own personal research on the net, then take our own medication. For most of us however, especially streetworkers, taking smuggled hormones from Thailand is the way to go, but with dire health consequences.
With not much medical help and information available, I would rely on designing my own road map. Everything then on becomes trial and error. But I do hope I would get myself certified by a psychologist before I go for SRS, although not much documentations are necessary when the surgery is performed in Thailand.
Hope I answered your questions. And thanks for giving me the opportunity to share.
To help me understand, can I please inquire if I understand you correctly?
You were born with physical male attributes but at some point transitioned and began identifying as female; then due to pressures at church and elsewhere became ex-transexual and took male hormones; now you are again identifying as female and are considering sex reassignment surgury to bring your exteranal genitalia into agreement with the gender you are inside.
Do I have that correct?
Almost correct. I do not wish to say how I “feel” as it would just be a personal self belief, but rather I would state that I believe I was always genderwise and sexually, a female, but unfortunately born with an abnormal growth (all the maleness that is on me physically is just a result of a lifelong exposure to testerone produced by the abnormal growth), therefore I would wish to have the abnormality removed as soon as possible to facilitate at best possible a whole bodily female being.
Wow, YukiChoe! Quite a story.
I knew an Ex-Trans back in the early 90s when I transitioned. She had had SRS back in the later 1960s and lived about 10 years post-op. She got a lot of flack from church and family and transitioned back, even to attempting to reverse the SRS. After about 10 years of trying to pass as male, she had had it and was couldn’t deal with the stress it caused and was in the process of transitioning back to female at the time I outgrew the support group I met her in.
I also had a friend in her 50s that had transitioned, not had surgery, but because of family pressures decided to de-transition (after about 2 years of RLT). I have lost track of this person, but I cannot imagine that it turned out well, knowing her as I did.
Stu Rodgers is about the only true ex-trans I know of. And I wish I had his voice, lol! Sorry to be cheeky, but I have always thought that.
SharonB, I believe society and environment plays a key role in determining one’s progress as a transsexual, besides acceptance from immediate family members and friends. Non conformity to social norms causes a great deal of suffering for people like us, and forces us to be who we are not. We then become disillusioned.
We are just ordinary people. If ex-trans find they live better lives by denying who they are, so be it. For me, I only got one life on earth. I rather spend it on being me.
Having transitioned some years ago, I have had a number of exposures to the anti-transsexual and ingnorant hate mentality. I agree that transitioning is not a solution for everyone. I agree that there are those who are sexually permissive and in sinful lifestyles. I question the sincerity if someone who says they have transititioned back to their original state. I know that after surgery, it is not possible to really do so. Nor can I believe that if the life one leaves to transition is so bad that they may require transitioning, and then think that retrning to it is an answer. Since the suicide rate for Transsexuals is the highest in any category it seems that the choices are slim.
What irks me is that almost all of the successfully transitioned MtF transsexuals I know are sexually inactive, have never had sex with a man, nor did so when they were married. We are accused of being homosexual and sinners. I ask which sin? Duet 22.5? If so, I will also claim Duet 23:1. If the church and those who claim to love God cannot find grace and love for others, then what kind of salvation can they expect?
EX-EX-Human? We lose our careers, families, social standing, and are kicked out of the church. No one has asked me about my life, nor my love and fidelity to Christ. Not one! Yet, I stand accused of being a fag, and of all sorts of sins suspected. Alright, I am an “IT” without any recourse or hope or promise as expressed by the fundimental church. What is not spoken are the realities.
UCLA Medical Research and other sources indicate that 1/50 have some sort of gender conflict, meaning that they are insecure in their role and internal identity. 1/100 has some form of genital deformity. 1/300 child births have deformities that place the urethra somewhere other than the normal location. 1/400 suffer from AIS – Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome blocking their male development and leaving them with a female appearance, but male gentilia. Then, of all births, about 1/2000 have some form of anomaly which is major and beyond reasonable means to correct. An uncertain percentage of these individuals are afflicted with GID, gender identity disorder. Of those identified GID a number are labeled as transsexual, and needing to transition. Only a small part of those are so able to make this transition; about 5% (apprx 1200). Sadly, the hidden secret in the medical world is that in 1/3500 births the doctor cannot adequately determine the sex, or gender of the child. They must wait for them to mature to see what mannerisms they may manifest. In my case I was the child of a parent who had multiple genital parts, and a mother who was a DES, diethylstribestrol, recipient. DES, now banned, is a known endocrine blocker disrupting normal gestational development. Some others I have come to know are intersexed and can claim either gender with validity. None of this is simple, or easily lived within this binary world of supposed man, or woman. I could continue stating many facts and figures, yet there are other factors, which need addressing.
One day there will be a reading of names. In that reading many names may be ex-ex and ex-ed. Christ’s love is much larger than even I can imagine!