Exodus has for years graced the world with an innovative plan for “freedom.”
Exodus was first to offer the world a “Freedom from Homosexuality” campaign. This outreach did not offer exgays freedom from same-sex attraction — but it did (thankfully!) seek to push homosexuals out of schools, jobs, families and churches — and into jail cells where moral misfits belong. Exodus looks forward to the day when exgays will enjoy true freedom from homosexuals.
We at Ex-Gay Watch believe Exodus is being a little timid, however. Why stop at freedom from homosexuals?
Let’s face it: Freedom sucks. And Freedom From Freedom is the answer.
Freedom not only forces us to tolerate people whom God despises, but also asks us to engage in conversation with our neighbors — whom we all know are going to hell.
Freedom forces us to tolerate Christians who aren’t as perfect as we are. Freedom denies us absolute moral authority. It forces us to allow other people to watch TV shows and movies containing sins that are different from ours, and therefore worse than ours. Freedom mocks God every time it stops us from censoring movies made by Hollywood Catholics and Jews — oops, we mean, Hollywood “liberals.”
Freedom rubs our wicked neighbors’ sins in our faces from morning to night.
Freedom forces us to think for ourselves, and just thinking about thinking makes our heads hurt.
Freedom prevents us from handing sovereignty over our lives to our pastor and his second wife and their mysterious benefactor. Worst of all, freedom abandons us to the consequences of our own choices, separating us from the Father who makes a great scapegoat when our abdication of responsibility leads to disaster.
Freedom From Freedom is God’s perfect answer to these problems and many others.
Ask yourself: Are you for God, or against God?
Please support God with a special donation to this campaign today.
(Proceeds from this solicitation will pay for XGW’s evangelical mission to Bora Bora.)
One of the people on my support lists in Virginia says there’s a ballot initiative designed to prevent gays from entering all contracts of any kind. I knew this was coming, but hadn’t realized it was on the ballot. Have they no shame at all?
Freedom from freedom is happening all over right now, and not just in the exgay groups as you pointed out. This strong push to demonstrate that the Founding Fathers had a very restrictive idea of freedom is gaining ground in many places (I have read a lot on both sides about this and am very unconvinced by the arguments that religion is supposed to be a part of American government).
I sadly saw this “freedom from freedom” happen tonight. One of my best friends got married. He is a wonderful, decent friend, and while he is very opposed to homosexuality and is very conservative socially, we are quite close. We have our differences, but I was very happy to go to the wedding. The wedding was beautiful and wonderful except for one thing–a discussion of the celebration of sexual purity. I have never once been to a wedding where a significant portion of the ceremony was devoted to politicizing virginity. The groom’s father gave the speech and discussed how the most important thing ever to him and his wife was that the groom remain sexually pure and marry a virgin. On the day of the groom’s birth, a blessing of sexual purity was given. In junior high, the son took a purity pledge to remain clean and was given a ring to symbolize it. At the ceremony, he removed the ring and gave his virginity as a prize to his bride.
The father discussed with the crowd statisics about virginity and marriage. He then attacked those who do not live with this ideal–he said that people perceive them as prudes, but they saved the most important aspect of their lives for this moment and that the anti-prudes should shut up. He also said true love could not happen between two consenting adults–only between a man and a woman in the holy bonds of matrimony. I almost left at this point, but I stayed for my friend. I know that harm was not trying to be done.
Here is the thing–I suspect everyone knows that marriage leads to sex. The fact that a speech was made to discuss sexual purity and how the bride and groom stayed virgins freaked me out. I knew that, but I did not feel a sexual discussion was appropriate in the wedding. It seemed perverse.
The idea of virginity as a gift is very creepy and makes my skin crawl. I respect those who wait, but to turn it into an object is foreign to me. The groom also at the end turned to the audience, raised his hands in victory, and said, “I finally got it guys.” Again, I am not criticizing waiting for marriage–cool for them. I was freaked out by the political nature of the virginity speech at an evangelical wedding. It seemed out of place. In fact, everyone in my row also felt uncomfortable about it. Otherwise, it was a great wedding. However, I did see there this idea of freedom from freedom.
I’m suspecting all this freedom talk is code for heterosexual freedom from gay folks.
The more freedom gay folks get, the anti gay resent it.
Aaron, you and I both know that abstinence only or virgin pledging is suspiciously sexist.
In the real world, men who encounter inexperienced women, know they won’t be judged and compared with other men.
And other men don’t consider their peers ‘damaged goods’ if they aren’t virgins prior to marriage.
Marriage for sex, usually results in very young people getting married, and the real world intervenes…hence so many divorces among this demographic in the Bible Belt.
Virginity, birth control, unconditional fidelity…are the unspoken responsibility of women, not men.
And women pay dearly, in welfare and foster care rolls, family homelessness and domestic violence and murder.
Men aren’t abandoned by women at the rate women and children are.
There are higher standards and expectations on the physical attributes of women and age disparity is a more common ratio of older men/half their age women.
Aaron, as voting and more equalized members of any given First World population, women who are college educated are more demanding of equal standards and globally are a minority.
I’ll say it again here: men and women are brutal to each other. Mostly men are brutal to women.
Christians and Jews in Western nations work against gays and lesbians in ways that speak to sexism and unequal standards of sexuality and conduct. I have always and will continue to believe that gay men and women provide the caring bridge between the extremes of men and women.
You get the physical and mental talent, and emotional friendship and support with the opposite gender, without all the sexual tension.
It’s a relief to have that tempering factor.
Which is why gays and lesbians in simpler cultures are …or were the spiritual advisors.
You were at a wedding Aaron, and you are close friends of that groom.
But imagine: most people, especially couples have a good gay friend somewhere in their lives.
That counselor and friend with the point of view that is the other side of the window.
God indeed had a plan that includes gay men and women, if even for that reason alone, knew that without that tempering factor…would and do kill each other.
Steve! How is Jim?
Give him a hug for me, will you honey?
Where have you been?! Virginia went to war on gays and lesbians with a full ban on marriage, personal contracts and wills.
And three counties in VA wanted to ban GAYS altogether.
There was a panel convened to write up a bill to ban gay people!
I kid you not.
This pretty much occurred around the time marriage became legal in MA.
You know the bumper sticker, Virginia is for Lovers?
Gay folks printed out counter stickers.
‘Virginia is for Haters’.
Truth be stranger than fiction, brother.
And I think straight folks really aren’t all that concerned with gay marriage, or they don’t know just how far these states and their governments have gone to screw up gay people’s lives.
In fact, more energy has been going into gay marriage bans, and rewarding the invasion of this country by non citizens, than anything into solutions for high gas prices, corporate corruption, health care, the sanguinity of social security and the Iraq war.
All those things concern gay folks too.
And eventually maybe the public should wonder why their politicians aren’t working at what really matters.
Aaron, I’ve often thought that ‘sexual purity’ can become an idol for conservative Christians. That’s just been my own private thinking, but your wedding story certainly illustrated it in a bizarre way. I think I would have lost my appetite for the reception.
Wow, Aaron… I find the idea of a wedding ceremony devoted to the topic of sex creepy, too.
Sure, wedding traditions have long included the recognition of transitioning to a sanctioned sexual relationship, but focusing on that to the exclusion of the many other relationship gifts (and challenges!) trivializes marriage.
I respect you for honoring your friendship by staying… those are tough decisions.
Mike A: oh yes… Freedom. And by that I mean my freedom to restrict yours or others. Basically the same threadbare POV put forward by the Confederate States and the slave owners…Steve S: Equality Virginia has more on the topic.—-Aaron, remarkable forbearance from you (presume you went alone). I’m not sure I could have finished my shrimp cocktail after that.And I didn’t know you are a time lord… this wedding occured in a tent, in the desert, about 550 BCE right?At the time we — “europeans” — were most prudish about sex, but not about death, no Victorian father would have ever made that public speech. Beyond tasteless.I hope during this rant that the father at least found time to remark on the wonderful qualities of his son’s wife and to publically welcome her and her family into his. Or was this rather swamped in his joy at “the gift”? Bleauh.
Actually Grantdale, I went with my spouse. My friend’s dad, who gave the virginity speech, knows me well, but I even turned to my partner when there was the point about love not being between two consentual adults–I wondered if the dad was addressing us in an odd way. The father has never said anything previously to me–although the mother works for an organization associated with the Christian Coalition. I certainly hope the father was not trying to make a backhanded remark during the wedding.
They even had at the reception a marraige honoring ceremony when they had all the married couples stand–they counted out the years of marriage for each couple. My spouse and I almost did as a point, but we realized that it was not our day, and we were being as respectful as possible. We were surrounded by lots of prominent evangelicals. The funny thing is that people did have to acknowledge we were there. I suspect some people may have talked. The minister even knows me.
Actually, there was a separatist idea about marriage there in the message, but the stuff the minister and father talked about in the joys of marriage itself all applied to my spouse and I. Our concerns, goals, permanence, and love were all the same as them–I just don’t think some could ever see our relationship of fourteen years as being as valid as that new wedding that took place.
The funny thing is prior to the wedding the groom asks me all the time for relationship advice like how to control money, etc. Still, I love this family greatly and was happy to be there at the wedding. If gay marriage is ever legal here, I wonder if my friend and his family would attend.
I was aware of the earlier VA laws, but hadn’t realize it had turned into a ballot initiative.
Aaron at June 4, 2006 10:36 PM
A demonstration of class.
Perhaps the father, the minister, or other evangelicals didn’t see it, but I’m sure that someone there saw you being respectful and having your relationship unneccessarily dismissed and a seed was sown on some fertile heart.
This “freedom from freedom” campaign is a great idea.
If we could just lock away or eliminate anyone who doesn’t do exactly what we like, then all our neighbors would be just like us.
It would make it soooooooo much easier to “love our neighbors like ourselves” if they were just like ourselves.
Aaron,
As an evangelical Christian, I’m embarrassed by what you and your partner had to endure at your friend’s wedding. I’ve never heard of such a thing & it’s really sad that the “virginity” of their son and his bride were the sole goal for this family, especially when you consider what Jesus referred to as the greatest commandments.
Hopefully the parents didn’t hang the blood-stained sheet out in the front lawn the morning after the wedding. I think that’s still a practice in some middle-eastern cultures.
That said, I applaud you for the respect you showed your friend, his bride, and their families by celebrating their big day with them & not getting too bent out of shape by something so odd. You allowed love to “win out.” He must be a great guy.
singer
I was having a conversation with Grace when this came up and I feel its important to share.
I suspect few people are more transparent then me. In the family I grew up in (nine older sisters and brothers) I was constantly under verbal ( and regularly physical) attack with older and more sophisticated people never missing an opportunity to point out what a bad person I was. I suspect it wreaked havoc with my sense of self-esteem and security and may be part of the reason I have occaisional schizophrenic breaks with reality. When what appears to be solid reality differs from what most people (whom my emotional insecurity makes me feel they know better) are telling me, I think I can’t decide what reality is and the terror starts. However because of my unreasonable family I learned to accept that I am inevitably flawed as we all are and I learned to be sometimes desensitized to criticism. I think the transparent admission of flaws adds to one’s credibility whereas if I meet someone who is more certain of everything than I am of anything, someone who can’t admit when they’re obviously wrong that ruins their credibility for me because they can’t acknowledge reality that disagrees with them and that is key to being logical and reasonable.
Schizophrenia is (or was) believed to be a bioligical predisposition with social environmental triggers, triggers such as a mother with conflicting emotions about having the child, or as I understand it some research shows many schizophrenics have onset while attending university. One thing I noticed about the university educational experience is a social environment where the professors and graduates attempt to maximally emphasize how much they know and how little the new attendees know. In disagreements they sometimes use specious mind games to make the new attendees feel small, ignorant, and mistaken – even when it is the new attendee who is more reasonable and correct. I believe this sort of thing creates the same sort of disbelief in reality and one’s ability to think correctly that I have experienced and triggers occaisonal and persistent schizophrenia.
My psychiatrist asked me what I think caused my schizophrenic episodes and in looking back I see this type of mind game central to it. In my time with the government I found the university social environment writ large with lots of specious mind games used in power struggles. I believe now that this caused pyschotic episodes I had there as one common specious mind game was used on me. The fallacious “I know something you don’t which explains why you are wrong when everything you’ve said seems reasonable and correct – but I’m not going to share it with you, when you know as much as I do about “blah” you’ll see why I’m right when I look wrong.”. This kind of common psychological abuse literally makes people like me crazy. I’ve found these profound contradictions of reality coming out of the exgay politicians like NARTH and Exodus and have experienced terrifying psychotic breaks partly because of it.
It occurred to me on Exgaywatch that it makes no sense that Throckmorton, exodus and the like argue that unwanted sexual contact with men causes opposite reactions in boys and girls – making boys like sex with men and girls hate it. Grantdale mentioned they asked Nicolosi why this would be and got no response. That kind of irrational certainty out of supposedly well educated intelligent people like Nicolosi is just the sort of thing that has pushed me over the edge in the past. This “paint gays negatively no matter the truth” approach literally makes some people nuts (like me) who might otherwise cope reasonably well with life. Its been a shock to me to realize these people are lying, they know it, and they just don’t care – their moral standards are so messed up that somehow this is okay. I think that’s what happens when people feel they have to unconditionally make all the uncertain words of thousands of years ago be the absolute truth. This cavalier handling of the truth can cause a sufficient loss of trust in humanity and reality which triggers psychosis in those with a predispositon. I’m more and more sure of this.
We recently attended a purity ring ceremony for a 13 year old boy, and had similarly mixed feelings to the poster above. Interestingly, at least according to his parents, they had offered to have the ceremony be for the family only, but the boy asked that his community be present to help him stay accountable.
When the ceremony was held, the love that the parents had for their son, and he for them, was very present and vivid. In a way it was really neat to see, that he wanted to get up there and state how he felt about them, in front of all these people… not a common behavior in most 13 year olds!
This particular ceremony didn’t talk much at all about sex per se, or virginity per se. There was a quick reference to purity before marriage, but mostly it dealt with things like respect, honor, and dignity.
These particular folks are very welcoming but also highly prejudiced against, and condemning of, GLBT people. We have gone to several social affairs at their home, and needless to say the other guests assume that we believe as they do. It usually takea about a half an hour before someone embarks on a homophobic riff … they seem to be some of the very few people who don’t realize that our son is gay. In the interests of not ruining the party, and being respectful to our hosts, we always just change the subject and never engage with anyone. I feel that this is the right thing to do (it’s their home after all) but sometimes it also makes me feel a bit disloyal toward my son. He says that he absolutely doesn’t want us to make any sort of deal out of things, or to confront anyone, but I still wish that people just wouldn’t raise the subject at all, rather than be so outspoken about it.
Jane in CT
Jane,
Thank you for your loving support. I’m certain your son feels blessed to have you as parents.
Regardless of your son’s concern for your feelings and his desire to allow you to avoid conflict, it isn’t fair to either him or to you to make you sit through abuse. Perhaps there’s a way to be respectful of someone else’s home while also being respectful of your own love for your son.
I’d suggest coming up with a phrase in advance that you can use when this occurs. Maybe something along the lines of:
“I respect that you have strong opinions on this subject. However, the things you are saying about my son are very hurtful. And while I am not here to try and change your opinion, I hope that we can change the subject and avoid being unkind to each other.”
Randi,
I read your comment about varying responses to sexual abuse and would like to offer my thoughts, if that’s OK. First, I want to make it clear that I’m not a psychologist or any sort of expert on this subject, so my comments are solely based on my own first-hand experience with childhood sexual abuse and that of some very close friends who have shared with me about their own abuse.
I am a male and was abused for about a year by a 20-year old male when I was 10. It took me nearly 10 years to even tell anyone about it and then almost another 10 to refer to it as “abuse” because it wasn’t violent & I actually thought this man was showing me love. I think this experience played a significant role in my sexual attraction to other men.
I have three close friends (two male and one female) who were similarly abused by adults in early adolescence, but their perpetrators were of the opposite gender. Their experiences were also not violent and even felt “loving” to them at the time. All three became very promiscuous (heterosexually) as they entered adulthood and had affairs even after they were married.
Finally, I have two friends (one male and one female) who were violently sexually abused by adult males when they were children. He is “straight” and repulsed by the notion of homosexuality and she is a lesbian. Both understandably have a deep mistrust for virtually all men.
Again, this merely summarizes the common experiences of a very small group of people. My goal here is not to offend anyone, but I guess the point I want to make is that there are many variables when it comes to abuse and how we each respond. The most obvious variable would be the “context” of the abuse itself (“loving”/manipulative or violent/aggressive). Of course the emotional and physical development of the child at the time of the abuse has a huge affect on his/her response to it. I’ve practically written a book here, so I’ll stop now.
Thank you for sharing so candidly about your schizophrenia. It must be a very confusing and emotionally painful illness. I can certainly understand how receiving ambiguous responses from supposed “experts” could be a major trigger for you at times. I wish you well in your recovery.
Singer
Thankyou for your encouragement Singer, reason and honesty in others is critical to my mental health and when it comes to being same sex attracted traditional society gives too little of both.
What you’re saying makes good sense to me in that it would be the nature of the abuse that determines whether one comes to enjoy or abhor the experience of sex with men. Its my understanding that “reparative therapy” advocates do not make this distinction in the nature of the male perpetrated abuse and assume that regardless of its nature that it produces lesbian girls and gay boys. Although it seems less likely based just upon what you’ve said, I would also suggest that it could be coincidence that the people you know who were abused by men in a non-agressive way were male-attracted to begin with (or destined to be), and that the ones that were abused agressively were attracted to women to begin with (or destined to be).
singer,
thank you for posting your observations.
However, it seems to me that your suggestion that the nature of how the abuse was observed by the child determined sexual orientation. I would suggest just the opposite: the orientation of the child determined the way in which it was observed.
I suspect that you were open to observing the molestation in a positive way while the boy who was opposite-sex attracted observed it as agressive. And too the opposite sex molestation was observed by the lesbian girl as agressive while the heterosexual girls could be manipulated into seeing it as loving.
In any case, clearly molestation of children leads to confusion and difficultly in finding the proper expression for sexuality. I do not find it at all surprising that the heterosexual children molested by opposite-sex persons became promiscuous or that the molested lesbian and hetersexual child are distrustful of men. Or that you seek a cause and a cure for your orientation.
What was done to you and the others was incredibly selfish and cruel regardless of the way it was observed at the time.
Ohhh Timothy, you’re so smart!
Timothy’s right Singer, it may be just that the abuse, or being told its so, makes you think it caused your orientation. I saw a number of different therapists in my younger days, it frequently came to pass that they asked me if I’d been sexually abused. At first I was automatic, “No.”. Then as I kept hearing the question I started to wonder why I was the way I was and I thought maybe I’ve just suppressed a truth too horrible to face. I had a close family friend that I was uncomfortable with, I started to wonder if he showed too much interest in me, if maybe he’d molested me and I’d pushed it out of my mind. I accused him and he vigourously denied it, offered to take a lie detector test, and I believe him. I think it was a bit of “false memory” syndrome, the suggestion was planted, I wanted an explanation, and it seemed possible. After all, one of my close female friends had been sexually molested by a man and REALLY seemed to love sex with men.
I’m sure that’s where a lot of the distorted statistics from Exodus and “Focus on the Family” come from on the numbers of gays and lesbians that have been sexually assaulted. Its easy for some of us to believe even if there’s no evidence of it.
I should add that that female friend found the male perpetrated abuse agressive and unwelcome, but loved sex with men when it was on her terms.
Randi & Timothy,
I fully agree that there are many factors leading to orientation besides abuse (including biological factors, family dynamics, etc.) and even that these factors made me easy prey for this type of perpetrator.
The reason I think I saw it as an expression of love is because the other significant males in my life (dad & older brother) treated me like crap or ignored me, not that I wanted sex from a man. When a man offered me abuse and called it love, I soaked it up.
I know we won’t agree on the “chicken & egg” part of this argument, but I do appreciate the understanding and compassion you’ve both offered.
Singer
David, on the thread about DL Foster, lesbians and logic below
https://exgaywatch.com/blog/archives/2006/06/dl_foster_lesbi.html#comments
you asked me the apparently off-topic question “Is it your opinion that no one should be kept from posting no matter how abusive their behavior? “.
In my opinion anything goes uless it threatens physical injury or death. I would also prohibit conversations I understand to be illegal. I don’t believe DL has broken the law with the possible exception of slandering me on his site when he said I feel sorry for pedophiles.
I’ve agreed with 1/2 to 2/3 of the rare posting restrictions I’ve seen on exgaywatch but ignoring that Mike supports religion and I oppose it I’d have to give Exgaywatch a near perfect score on providing free expression of opinions. I can’t even begin to describe the gap in quality and credibilty between exgaywatch and the anti-gay sites.