From AP/CNN:
WASHINGTON (AP) — Lesbians’ brains react differently to sex hormones than those of heterosexual women.
An earlier study of gay men also showed their brain response was different from straight men — an even stronger difference than has now been found in lesbians.
Lesbians’ brains reacted somewhat, though not completely, like those of heterosexual men, a team of Swedish researchers said in Tuesday’s edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
A year ago, the same group reported findings for gay men that showed their brain response to hormones was similar to that of heterosexual women.
From Good As You:
The findings would seem to serve as even more proof that biology is at least partially responsible for one’s sexuality; for more proof, just open your eyes and actually talk to a few homosexuals.
Although most of us will see this as another study supporting the growing body of evidence that sexual orientation is most likely highly influenced by biology, I suspect the ex-gay and anti-gay folk will take another approach.
Most likely, they will suggest that it is same-sex sexual conditioning that trains the brain to respond in a manner similar to heterosexuals of the opposite sex.
Of course sexual attractions are influenced by biology. But maybe biology can be taught. Who knows if this is how it is, but the study authors also advance the conditioning hypothesis in the study and have indicated to me that the AP report is incorrect on at least two counts.
Prof. Throckmorton, thank you for the additional information and links.
Does all this really matter? Throckmorton, there is social conditioning that prevails to mistreat gay people. Exclude them from EVERYTHING, if there is suspicion or disclosure (involuntary or not) of being gay.
I know what experiment, I’d like to see. Wholesale acceptance that homosexuality is an orientation that doesn’t require ANY intervention or negative response.
How about the results on something like that?
Or the positive impact of marriage for gay couples and society at large in MA?
THEN, and ONLY then can we see just who wouldn’t attempt to change or seek therapy voluntarily.
Gay orientation manifests so early, parents start trying to recondition their gay children prior to the child having any choice.
All these studies obviously show that homosexuality has no anomolies or abnormalities or genetic differences pronounced enough to see a marked difference between gay people and heterosexuals.
The ONLY thing that isn’t equal is in how gay people are treated.
Hope changes behavior in ways that people would be less destructive to themselves.
The hope for gay people shouldn’t rest in being not gay, but in being treated well, and without repurcussions because of their identity- like they see everyone else being treated.
Ever hear of the Clark experiment with white dolls and black dolls, Throckmorton?
I rest my case.
Warren Throckmorton at May 8, 2006 09:07 PM
Warren,
I have a question about your statement about taught biology. I see that this is in reference to androgen changing brain nucleas volumn in castrated rats.
I can see how that might come into play in the sexual orientation of castrati. Otherwise I’m not sure what you mean. Unless you are indicating that you think orientation may be tied to levels of hormones.
Many have suspected that hormone levels in the womb are impactful or sexual orientation – and I think this is something that we’ve discussed.
My question is this: Are you exploring the idea that homosexuality may be able to be reoriented to heterosexuality through manipulation of hormone levels in the body?
Or was your link simply a suggestion that these brain function variations may be due to gay or lesbian people having differing levels of hormones than their straight counterparts?
I do not know what the mechanisms would be. I taught adult development this semester which focuses much on aging and recovery from brain injury. I am so impressed by the plasticity of the brain. I am aware that the amygdala has much to do with social connection and this area is stimulated by the putative pheromones as well as the hypothalamus in the Swedish studies. Some people might get to sexual response through social connectedness and others in the more usual way. Many ex-gay men are deeply in love with their wives and are sexually responsive to them but not attracted much to other women. Are there differing brain correlates? I suspect so. I asked Ivanka Savic to consider a follow up with bisexuals and ex-gays. I believe the research team may consider it. I would welcome this.
I sent this, without the edits of course, to a friend of mine who thought I’d be excited about the study. Dr. Throckmorton, we may have some points of agreement.
…these studies present an issue I’ve thought about a lot, as you can see.
In general, I think they treat homosexuality like a disease that must be “explained.” They exclude bisexuals, either by burying us in the statistics by calling us straight or gay people or not dealing with us. Anyway, [my wife] and I have distinctive brains because of a squillion other factors. (She told me Tony Stewart had moved up in the [NASCAR] Nextel Cup points standings before their computers could this weekend and can sew a suit from a “good picture” in Vogue magazine, no pattern; I am high-IQ numeric-dyslexic and have dealt with depression since I was seven.) All this to say, not impressed, really.
I don’t even think they’ll sway the Christian Wrong. They are already drawing comparisons to alcoholism (which is genetic, but must be worked around.) And then there is the Catholic idea that gay people are deformed from birth, poor things, and have a calling to be celibate. So if there’s shatterproof evidence that it’s inborn and biological? The haters will still go on hating us. After all, race is definitely a biological and inborn trait, yet there is still racism. I believe that ultimately, we’re going to have to talk more about effects than causes. In other words, about love, about being honest and not hurting others (including straight women and men that all-the-way-gay people marry!), about our actual lives.
I clicked the poll [at MSNBC, about origins] out of curiosity. There’s never a “Who cares?” option in them, is there? When there is one, I’ll know our society’s starting to grow out of its adolescence.
…I suggest Jennifer Terry’s “An American Obsession” to you. It’s about the dubious scientific experimentation done to explain and cure same-sex-loving people. It’s not what changed my mind, but it did solidify and confirm some suspicions I had.
Sorry you asked? 🙂
Warren,How on earth do you leap from a paper describing the chemical effect of hormones to a claim that biology can be taught??? That paper makes no such claim. Synaptic plasticity is a different subject.Hormones are well established to have inhibiting or exagerating effects on libido. There is utterly no evidence that it influences the direction of sexual attraction itself. I’d have thought several decades of failed — and abusive — work in East Germany should have convinced people of that.And I’d have hoped you do not confuse teaching and learning with the giving of artificial hormone shots.
Warren,
Interesting. Something to think about.
“Many ex-gay men are deeply in love with their wives and are sexually responsive to them but not attracted much to other women.”
This doesn’t surprise me. This is, after all, what some men have described to be about their “pre-gay” experience (for want of a better term). They were in love with their wife and sexually responsive, just not sexually fulfilled – and sexual response required fantasy and effort.
I would be inclined to think of these ex-gay men as gay men that are functioning heterosexually – as it would appear that their sexual orientation has not changed (but I use definitions based on attraction, not on what sex organ goes where). Nonetheless, I can see how some men would be willing to forego sexual fulfillment in exchange for a sense of spiritual security and social approval.
I too would be curious to see what sort of brain correlation there is in those whom identify as ex-gay. Just guessing here, but if they are similar to those you mentioned (not attracted generally to women but sexually responsive to a specific woman) I would suspect that their brain responses to the odors would be similar to those of those who identify as gay.
It might be too complicated to perform, but it would be interesting to know whether scents obtained from the specific women (their wives) to whom they are sexually responsive would trigger brain processing similar to the scents from other women or of men.
Timothy, you’re dead-on with the chemistry from specific people. My partner (a neurologist) and I talked about this last night.
1. Pheremone “science” is highly speculative. We don’t even know that there is a parallel mechanism in humans as in animals.
2. The chemicals in the study were stronger than found in day-to-day interactions. This could impact the results.
3. How did the study (and I haven’t gotten a copy yet, so this may be answered) determine who fits into the ‘straight’ and ‘lesbian’ categories? There are many who characterize themselves as same-sex attracted who have (varying) physical responses to men and women, but “fall in love” with women. The biology here is bound to be complicated when we consider emotional responses over time.
4. What would the results of a study featuring “pheremones” from lesbians, in contrast to “women”? Would there be a difference?
5. Back to #1, we don’t even have a working model of how the brain responds in the “paradigmatic” (heterosexual) cases. What is problematic, as well, is the paradigm–very binary, with straight men/gay women and straight women/gay men acting as two poles of a supposed “masculine-feminine” divide. My contention is that this impugns much of the empirical worth of the study–we’re already looking at the data through an interpretation. More work needs to be done on some of these assumptions.
Just some thoughts without having looked at the studies, from a philosophy major with no science background. (I.e., fire away with criticisms….)
ck,
very good question #4
And I agree with you and with Warren that MUCH more research needs to be performed in many areas of sexual orientation. But the fact that these reports get such attention in the media (though not always correctly) gives me encouragement that perhaps more research will be funded in the future. Even scientists like seeing their name in the newspaper.
ck: nah, no criticisms from here. It’s good you’ve got a “resource” 🙂 ***hope the holiday went well too!***I’m wondering when it suddenly became big news that some gay men genuinely do love a particular woman? Of course some do. Always have done, girlfriend…But love and affection is not the same as sexual desire. (Though it is pretty cool when it all three come together in one neat package.)
grant/dale, the holiday did go very well, thanks. We’ve both got rings and are working on planning our wedding in a year.
She’s a good resource, definitely, although to really understand the study she’d need to be focusing on that part of the brain. Science is just so dern specialized anymore! How am I supposed to be an educated layperson??