Last weekend I braved the heterosexual-gridlock on the Sunset Strip to see Transamerica. In keeping with Pat “take him out” Robertson’s logic God was clearly angered I saw such an evil movie and struck me ill with a cold the next day. Since I’m without internet at home till my sugar-daddy gets me a cable modem the germs and I packed up the laptop and headed to the lesbian coffee shop down the street tonight. But let’s get to the actual post.
Ex-Gay Situation:
A hypothetical gay man, we’ll call him Stephen, is unhappy being gay and pursues conversion. He eventually marries a woman, generally stay out of other peoples’ business (remember, this is a hypothetical Stephen) and live happily ever after.
End Result: One spouse is not physically attracted to the gender of their partner. (As far as gays are concerned. )
Typical Reaction From Gay People: You’re not truly sexually attracted to the gender of your spouse! That marriage is a fraud and disgrace!
Trans Situation:
One spouse in a long-married heterosexual couple comes out as transgender. The spouse gradually transitions and the couple remains together and loving. The new same-sex couple loves each-other very much and generally stays out of other peoples’ business and live happily ever after.
End Result: One spouse is not physically attracted to the gender of their partner.
Typical Reaction From Gay People: Now that’s true love! What a wonderful compassionate and committed person the non-transitioning spouse is.
Dare I say, do you ever hear criticism of the non-transitioning spouse for not being sexually attracted to their spouses’ new gender?
I daresay that the typical gay response to a heterosexual couple with an ex-gay is wrong. If they are happy in the marriage and truly in love, then it is a wonderful thing. The question that has to be answered– and only they can answer this– is whether or not both people are truly happy. If an “ex-gay” marries the opposite gender out of religious conviction but still secretly or even unconsciously wishes he/she were with the same gender, you have a problem because 1) their heart may not be in it and 2) there is a high chance they may eventually realize their situation and end the marriage or at least cheat. Gay man marries a woman out of true love and devotion, regardless of gender– beautiful thing. Gay man marries a woman because he feels pressured to, feels like he has no alternatives, feels like it will normalize him, or feels like God needs him to (even from a position that says God doesn’t approve of gay sex, a marriage motivated by an ego-boost is bad) is a problem.
Plus, there’s the possibility that one of the spouses in the ex-gay relationship might not actually know about her spouse’s past. In which case, the relationship is not built on honesty and love, but deceit.
I don’t consider exgay couples a fraud or disgrace — unless they lie to public, imply changes that didn’t happen, and use their marriage as a political pawn with which to promote antigay discrimination and prejudice.
Where is the evidence that gay people generally are are that intolerant of exgay couples who mind their own business?
I’d have to strongly disagree with this post. I could care less who or what someone ends up spending the rest of their lives with. So long as a person’s reasons are for themselves, not for others, I could care less if they have a sex change, or decide to be exgay.My dislike of the exgay movement is entirely based on the predominantly negative message it actively sends out about the gay community. It’s not a passive group of likeminded individuals striving to overcome their gayness, it’s a pyramid of politically active representatives pressing an agenda of hate and descrimination on the backs of those being pressured to change themselves for others.If someone wants to be exgay for themselves, I’ll support them, if that person wants to condemn others, I’ll fight them, if that person is being coerced to change themselves for others, I’ll fight *for* them.
As a transperson that had a marriage dissolve because of my gender dysphoria, I hold no hostility towards my ex concerning her choice to leave. She married a man, and was sexually attracted to me as a man, and wanted to be married to a man. In the end I think it’s a choice between two people about what’s important to them. The only thing that does anger me is that she considers me an unfit parent simply because I’m trans. That is dead wrong IMO.
For me I think my partner’s transsexuality was always something that was a part of our relation, subconciously at first. When my partner came out to me as a transsexual man I mostly just felt that the pieces fell together and now that we live “openly” as a same sex couple it feels like we’re true to what we’ve always been to some extent.
I think that this situation is quite different from at least some of the ex-gay marriages that I’ve read about, where the “true identity” is seen as a problem that needs to be handled.
For this reason I don’t think that the two examples in the original post shows a double standard.
I am not sure gays as a whole would be upset with someone who divorces their transgender spouse. I think we would simply leave it up to the partners.
The thing we object to is societal coercion on individuals and couples in regard to their decisions — both via public opinion and law.
Allowing people societal and internal freedom to make their own decisions in these matters is the heart of what the glbt movement stands for. Of course individual gays or lesbian may fall short of this idea.
Not allowing people societal and internal freedom in these areas is what the Christian right stands for. Individual Christian rightists may also be personally “decent” to the glbt people in their lives. But let’s not lose sight of the differences in principle.
Ah, the ol double standard. I think there are several reasons for the different reactions:
1. Society expects women to sacrifice more of themselves for the sake of a relationship.
2. Corollary to that, it’s seen as less of a problem for a woman, especially a middle aged or older woman as most spouses in the trans situation are, to sacrifice their sex life than for a man.
3. At this moment in time, the “ex-gay” movement is mostly a front for a repressive political agenda aimed at persecuting LGBTs, no one’s trying to make political capital out of a trans person remaining married.
4. It may be politically incorrect to say it, but there’s a much higher chance a gay man in that situation will end up cheating on their spouse than a transwoman or their partner.
I’ve seen several couples with a trans partner dealing with this, and even the ones who try to stay together virtually all end up divorcing sooner or later.
There is a tremendous difference between the two scenarios you present. In the ex-gay scenario, the desire to change does not appear to be because of natural heterosexual feelings, those supposedly develop later. In the trans scenario, presumably there was already an emotional connection that, in this case, survived the change (reminds me of the first “Trill” Star Trek: TNG episode).
But as many people have pointed out, if a gay man truly falls in love with a woman and decides to marry her, all the best for them (I don’t get it, but that’s because on the Kinsey scale I’m about a 7 1/2.) There is, in fact, the example of Stephen Daldry, the director of the Hours who, IIRC, was openly gay and then did fall in love with a woman, to whom he remains married 5 years later; however I also seem to recall he has not renounced his homosexuality, stating basically that his wife is the only woman he could have fallen for. That is a far cry from what others have noted is the claim of complete and total change trumpeted by the “ex-gay” movement.
Daniel,
I think you are overlooking an important distinction: how the marriage is resolved.
Usually in post-trans marriages in which the spouse stays, it is agreed that this is not the most ideal situation. The relationship endures despite a gender configuration that is not desired by one of the partners. The parties are honest with themselves and others. They realize that they cannot further change themselves and that they’ve made a decision made to stay within a less than perfect configuration. There is resolution.
However, in most ex-gay marriage situations – or at least those who are politically active in the ex-gay movement – the marriage is seen as ideal. The conflict arises not from the situation but from the nature of the person. There is a desire to change the person to conform to the situation. They are ever seeking to “fight their desires” or in a “change process” and thus are never at a resolution.
So while you have two situations in which there is a marriage with one partner lacking in true desire, in one circumstance there is a recognition and acceptance of this fact and in the other there is denial and rejection of this fact.
If, however, an ex-gay person is honest about his lack of desire and the spouse is aware and accepting and neither claims that it is something other than what it is, I have no problem with that. My concern comes in when there is deceit within the relationship (to the spouse or to them self) or deceit in how it is presented externally. Or, of course, when their decisions are in turn coerced onto someone else.
Even in heterosexual marriages where there is no trans or gay situation, one thing usually occurs in disparate situations: one spouse ALWAYS hopes to change, or thinks they can change something in the other they find objectionable.
Many times a marriage is used as a tool for changing the opposite individual.
Make him more of a spender, if they are cheap.
Clean up their personal or environmental hygiene.
They’ll suddenly be more attentive to me and should give up their regular visits to bars and clubs with their friends.
If we have a baby, it’ll save the relationship. The baby will anchor us together.
I”m the one that works, and you do nothing, so yeah, I should control everything we do.
Any one or more of these scenarios plague ANY couple.
The unspoken, non realistic expectations or agenda of one spouse for another has broken up straight couples.
It’s just the trans or gay or bi situations that are politically exploited like no other normal situations couples are in.
When the feminist movement took women from being the quiet warrior to the loud one, men were confronted with their expectations and entitlements around THEIR gender.
The trans and gay issue upends entitlement and expectation all over again around gender and gender sexuality.
But it’s time has come for general discussion and only by that discussion can all things be on the table.
Traditionally, the vows of marriage have not been invalidated by the absence of erotic love. “Being in love” has always helped but the primacy of sexual attraction within marriage is a modern development. Gay marriage itself was only imaginable after sexual attraction became the most important factor in straight marriages.
If a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman marry and “fall out of love” or stop finding each other attractive, is the marriage a sham? The Biblical answer is no.
Daniel,I’ll forgive the apparent use of “all gays think one way” etc 🙂 For clarity, I’ll stick with it.I don’t think “the gays” have a problem with “the ex-gay marriage” per se. Frankly, that’s their issues to resolve; should they have any. Ditto marriages in which one person transitions.These are decisions that the couple make — together, and as two individuals. The resolution will be one that they make (be it staying together, splitting, whatever).It is not hypocritical of “the gays” to allow the couple to make their decisions. That is, afterall, what we ask of others with regards ourselves.Having said that: a partner already in a marriage who decides to gender trans. is doing something that is clearly obvious to anyone, let alone the current partner. It’s not like you can hide and fake it. What that means for the couple is, I imagine, many and varied in outcomes.It’s a very different situation to pretend to be heterosexual (albeit “cured of gayness”) and fake your way into a marriage; or falsely present yourself as “changed” to the general public.
Boo said:At this moment in time, the “ex-gay” movement is mostly a front for a repressive political agenda aimed at persecuting LGBTs, no one’s trying to make political capital out of a trans person remaining married.Boo, transgender people like Marti and me are on the radar of ex-gay organization. Crosswalk has done an “ex-transsexual” expose on Jane. PFOX raised funds for reversal surgery for Darrell, a self-identified former transgender, and his story is repeated on Jerry Leach’s “Reality Resources” website.Here’s some links to example pieces from the Gender Identity Disorder section of Jerry Leach, an ex-transsexual / ex-crossdresser affilliated with Exodus (his main website is here):Homosexuality – Same Sex AttractionSex Change Surgery SanctionThings in Common Among Transsexuals Ex-Transsexual or Ex-Christian? From the basic premise that transgender behavior is sinful in a way similar to homosexual behavior, the folk on the religious right find transgender marriage as heinous as same-sex marriage. Here’s some “traditional marriage” viewpoints that address transsexual marriages:TVC Chairman Urges Dissolution Of Transgender ‘Marriage’Mainstreaming deviancyTransgender Marriage Is ComingLaws prohibit ‘transgender’ discriminationTransgendered ‘Father’ Loses Custody Case In FloridaJoanna Grossman wrote on transsexual marriage in FindLaw’s IN A DECISION REJECTING A TRANSSEXUAL’S MARITAL UNION, KANSAS EMBRACES TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE – OR DOES IT? — A more secular take on the issue.
The dfference between the trans and the exgay situation is the level of social coercion that’s led to couples being in relationships that lack a desirable dimension. Both situations are caused initially by a denial of reality that is undesirable but in the exgay situation the denial is strident, formal, organized, and much more directly due to the desires of people outside the relationship. Because the social coercion is so much more intense and other centred in the exgay situation I am much more suspect of the integrity of such a relationship than the trans situation. Especially given that the exgay philosophy is to stay in a “heterosexual” relationship with no consideration of the alternatives. In the trans situation the couple is much more likely (after the time involved to get to a transition point) to be basing their decision to stay together on a reasoned consideration of the alternatives, their own reasons rather than outside social coercion and will make a better choice as to whether continuing the relationship is a good idea.
I’ve been in relationships with both a man and a woman where neither is physically attracted to me as I transistion to female. Marriage to my ex-wife failed partly because she entered the relationship under the false understanding that I was the typical heterosexual male. The women marrying ex-gay men are likely similarly misled by the propaganda that says gay males can change their sexuality and become exgay.
My current long term relationship with a gay male succeeds today in the most wonderful and satisfying fashion despite his not being particularly attracted to my female self. The difference is he knew in advance of getting involved in the relationship exactly what he was getting into. And he chooses to be with me because its what we want for ourselves, not for some god or external social need to please others.
I’m just wondering — is it legal for a transgendered woman to marry a biological man in most states (besides Massachusetts, where it would be a moot point)? If so, we have a situation where two biological males can marry provided one of them has his genitals amputated, takes female hormones and dresses in women’s clothing.
Mark, I can’t tell whether your question is a serious one or not. Certainly your phrasing of sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) as getting one’s “genitals amputated” — as well as refering to a post-operative male-to-female (m2f) transsexual with the male pronoun “his” — indicates that you believe the opposite-to-natal-sex gender identities of transsexual people aren’t valid. And, the question itself is prased in such a way to indicate you understand that all transsexuals are m2f’s, and all are m2f’s are attracted to men — their attraction to men being the primary motivator to go through SRS. Your apparent assumptions about transsexuals are basically incorrect.To begin with, about 40 to 50 percent of transsexuals are female-to-male (f2m) transsexuals. About 10 to 30 percent of f2m transsexuals identify as gay men.With m2f transsexuals, as I recall the book True Selves estimates that about 25 percent identify as heterosexual, about 25 percent identify bisexual, about 25 percent identify as lesbians, and about 25 percent identify as asexual.To answer your question seriously though, marriage for transsexuals depends both on the state where one was born, and the state where one resides on which sex a post-operative transsexual may marry. If the state one was born in doesn’t allow one to ammend one’s birth certificate to recognize the target sex, then the most other states (but not all) still consider one as the sex on one’s original birth certificate. And even if one’s birth state recognizes a sex change, some states never recognize the sex change. For example, a post-operative m2f transsexual (recognized as female by one’s birth state) could only marry males in California and Louisiana, and only marry females in Kansas and Florida. And who knows what happens when a married transsexual crosses state lines.
Daniel (and all),
Please read my blog at http://www.thewardcleaverfiles.blogspot.com
I am living the life you have described.
In the situation you describe, you didn’t specify whether the non-transitioning spouse of a transperson is heterosexual or bisexual, which is probably important to know before you presume that there is a person married to someone to whom they are not attracted.
It also ignores the fact that people who love transfolk (as well as transfolk themselves) often discover that sexuality and gender are not nearly as straightforward (no pun intended) as they might have once thought. I personally know a few transmen who were once homosexual women, and are now homosexual men. I myself am a dyke who tends to prefer gay male porn, and “The Leather Daddy and the Femme” is one of my favorite erotic books, although my own experimentations with bisexuality have been abject failures. There’s something going on with queer sexuality that’s a whole lot more complicated than gender preference.