In response to some advice that I posted for an exgay reader, another reader recently wrote to ask whether I am exgay, and if so, how did I break free of homosexual desires.
Here’s my response (slightly edited).
I’m not ex-gay 🙂 … your second question is kinda broad, and requires a bit of examination:
a. Different sexual desires have different causes. The desires do not break down neatly into heterosexual and homosexual categories. The causes are not squarely biological or environmental. And some desires are less sexual than others.
b. Any given desire can have different levels of intensity — some levels might be healthy, while other levels may be too high or too low. For example, our society considers the desire for physical contact with someone healthy if that desire is for a hug or handshake from a friend, not healthy if the desire is a hug from a boss. Some societies expect men to kiss one another as a greeting, while other societies see any physical contact — even a handshake — as a violation of one’s personal/spiritual space. A desire for sex with one’s spouse once a week might be average; if one desires sex more often than one’s partner wishes, then one must learn to ignore or divert one’s desires. A constant and overpowering desire for sex, or no desire at all, might require examination.
What I’m getting at is, what exactly is one trying to break free from? “Homosexual desires” (or, for that matter, “heterosexual desires”) is too broad to be addressed with a quick fix, in my opinion (speaking as a layperson).
Best wishes.
Mike: Interesting, I might have responded in about the same way as you did.
Warren, I thought you might. … We’re not polar opposites.
Mike A:what exactly is one trying to break free from?
Doesn’t that question apply to every other “sin” or human failing. Why do we struggle with anger, greed, gluttony and the rest? Is it healthy to be a son-of-a-bitch in a violent society? Perhaps Jesus should have got angry and bitch slapped his oppressors. And how did Pride become a virtue?
This is a bit off-topic, but an executive committee member of the Southern Baptist Convention has been arrested for propositioning an undercover cop in Oklahoma City. The man (Lonnie Latham) claims he was set up.
https://www.channeloklahoma.com/news/5845859/detail.html
This part fascinated me:
“He has also spoken out against same-sex marriage and in support of a Southern Baptist Convention directive urging its 42,000 churches to befriend gays and lesbians and try to convince them that they can become heterosexual “if they accept Jesus Christ as their savior and reject their ‘sinful, destructive lifestyle.”‘”
Mark A. said:
What I’m getting at is, what exactly is one trying to break free from? “Homosexual desires” (or, for that matter, “heterosexual desires”) is too broad to be addressed with a quick fix, in my opinion (speaking as a layperson).
I don’t think anything about this issue could be described as a “quick fix”. I respect that you don’t wish to over simplify the question, but I think we can probably assume the person asking it equates being ex-gay with freedom from the desire to be sexually intimate with a member of ones own sex. While I have no data as yet to back this up, I would posit that most of the general public who have an opinion on the subject believe this as well. It is some of the ex-gay ministries/clinics that seem to see the definition as fluid, meaning just about anything, e.g., being able to abstain from acting on such desires even though they may remain, living a celibate life, etc.
If this is correct, it seems that the bar is held quite high by those expecting change and quite low by those who would provide it.
1630r said:
And how did Pride become a virtue?
It seems an odd place for this question but I will have a go 🙂
I’m not sure the sin of pride as described in the Bible has ever been considered a virtue. For instance, I think we can agree that the pride we think of as healthy today is reflected in the first two definitions for “pride” at answers.com:
1. A sense of one’s own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.
I believe that even God expressed some of #2 in Mark 1:11, describing his pleasure over His Son. The sinful pride seems to be expressed more in the third definition:
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
I would add that the ultimate sin of pride in Scripture is to put one’s self as equal to or above God – Satan’s sin. The first couple of paragraphs at the link below offer a decent explanation of this:
https://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2964/homily22Sundayc.html
Sorry if that went OT, carry on.
David
James at January 4, 2006 09:23 PM
This is a bit off-topic, but an executive committee member of the Southern Baptist Convention has been arrested for propositioning an undercover cop in Oklahoma City. The man (Lonnie Latham) claims he was set up.
This has been been discussed over at IndeGayForum. This kind of thing isn’t new. Recall that Matt Glavin, former head of the conservative Southeastern Legal Foundation operation–and married with children–was arrested twice for fondling male park rangers near Atlanta (do a Google search). And Jimmy Swaggart was famously caught cavorting with a “lady of the evening.”
Regarding Latham, one of the commenters at IndeGayForum informed us that the resort at which Latham was staying was known to be catering to people seeking homosex. I quite frankly don’t have a problem with that–although soliciting for prostitution might be a crime in OK. What I did find interesting–as I posted on the comment thread at the IndeGayForum site–is that the reverend was driving a 2005 Mercedes Benz. I know that Baptist ministers don’t take a vow of poverty, but that strikes me as being a bit much.
On Mike’s post, I agree pretty much completely. There are too many variables–and too many possible values for the variables–to go through all of them, but the post is a start.
The Habana Inn where Latham was arrested is a large gay resort. I’m not certain if he had booked a room there – or whether his room was at a nearby motel. News reporters emphasized that he was not arrested for attempting to solicit a prostitite since there was no mention of money in the exchange. This will be an interesting story to follow since Latham was a key SB leader and was politically active in opposing rights for LGBT persons.
Mike: Interesting, I might have responded in about the same way as you did.
Posted by: Warren Throckmorton at January 4, 2006 07:03 PM
“Different sexual desires have different causes. The desires do not break down neatly into heterosexual and homosexual categories. The causes are not squarely biological or environmental.”
“Some societies expect men to kiss one another as a greeting, while other societies see any physical contact — even a handshake — as a violation of one’s personal/spiritual space.”
Posted by Mike Airhart at January 4, 2006 06:55 PM
Warren, if you agree with Mike on this than it should follow that you agree homosexuality is a natural and expected outcome of a varied environment where people have freedom of choice in how to live their sexual lives. Doesn’t sound like something you’d agree to although logically and honestly you should.
Also, if you agree with Mike that the causes of sexual desires are not squarely biological or environmental why have you in the past refused to acknowledge that the twins studies showing if one twin is gay the other is much more likely to be gay than the 1% to 10% of the population which normally is, means the cause of gayness is partly genetic?
https://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/em_homosexuality.html
Hi Randi,Given we put it straight to Warren on more than enough occassions 🙂 I’m also more than ready to state this.Warren DOES acknowledge that sexuality has biological and environmental aspects. He DOES acknowledge the twin studies, although he is normally doing so in order to down-rate the significance and is often squibbing about the fact that there very obviously is something genetic at play.Warren (currently) prefers Bem’s EBE as the public face for his opinions (and we happen to think Bems’ EBE is a crock — mere speculation based on Bell, Weinberg, & Hammersmith’s work from the 1970’s despite the fact BW&H specifically warn people NOT to extrapolate the data in this way. EBE appears to fit some people at a point in time, but then again so does astrology.).Where Warren does part company (with us, and actually near all his professional collegues) is whether sexual desire can be changed by deliberate effort. Warren says yes, but based on self-reports by ex-gays, or (IOurHO) a “fresh” re-reading and interpretation of the few good studies he’s offered as evidence or the use of some highly dubious studies. You may read Warren’s 1997 piece to find what one’s they are — Pattison & Pattison, as but example.We’ve also yet to get a plain answer about how often he regards this as possible — “some”, “many”, “most” “all”??? And that question is the crux of the matter, regardless about however we quibble about defining “sexual orientation” or inventing significant differences between being “gay” or “homosexual” etc etc etc ad nauseum.As we’ve stated before to Warren… America’s a big place and, as Jerry Springer only too well knows, you can always find an individual who’s ready to claim anything.Base a theory on such people, urgh, well, no. Not a good idea.–Urgh, and just remembered Warren… we still haven’t told you what prize we wanted sent to the antipodes. We’ll discuss it tonight and email you, but I have a feeling our own very copy of “I do exist” will best suit our historic library. I’ll be fascinated to review it again in 20 years time; as, no doubt, will the 5 ex-gays (bahahaha). And I can then stop borrowing the copy from the local ex-gay marketers…We were hoping to make you pay the postage on a wardrobe or something, but apparently you don’t sell them 🙂
Hi Grantdale, good to hear from you again, its been a while.
Shame I missed it if Mr. Throckmorton acknowledged the biological or genetic role in same sex attractions. It must be a rare event because from what I’ve seen. When I put it to him that the twins studies indicated a genetic component he refused to acknowledge it and squibbed (I had to look that one up) as you say. Not exactly an honest stance on the likely reality of either issue.
I find Bem’s “exotic becomes erotic” theory silly.
I am biologicaly male, but transgendered. As a child/adolescent I never considered males exotic, just common and ordinary – I was grouped with other males all the time. Females were exotic because of their physical differences from me and adults forcing exclusion from female groups. Yet I became attracted equally enough to both sexes tha to this day I still try and fail to decide one is a preference over the other, perhaps due to social pressure from both gays and straights. Seems nobody wants to acknowledge a bisexual and Warren’s been no exception.
The natural existence of bisexuals also flows from Mikes statements at the beginning of this thread. I had to re-read what Mike wrote several times before its significance became apparent. I’ve asked Mr. Throckmorton repeatedly to acknowledge bi-sexuals and discuss what that means regarding “exgays” and he’s refused with flippant replies if at all. Bi-sexuals would also be a natural result of Mr. Throckmorton’s own ideas about the “fluidity” of sexual orientation.
I’ve read a fair bit of Warren’s stuff and only heard him emphasize the role of societal pressure in forming sexual orientation. Again if solely that were true the somewhat random visions of societies would also naturally create some with bisexuality. Would that Mr. Throckmorton answer these questions himself, but I haven’t seen him be very forthcoming on questions logically stemming from his own ideas or those of the majority of mental health professionals. Small comfort if he’s made a bit of a concession in agreeing to Mike’s statements when he doesn’t support the right of gay couples to live happy monogamous supportive lives together.
Re: “I’ve asked Mr. Throckmorton repeatedly to acknowledge bi-sexuals and discuss what that means regarding “exgays” and he’s refused with flippant replies if at all.”
Although, to be honest, bisexuality is something that very few people give serious thought to for very long. That’s true even among LGBT folks.
Jim Burroway at January 6, 2006 04:33 PM
Although, to be honest, bisexuality is something that very few people give serious thought to for very long. That’s true even among LGBT folks.
Maybe that’s because, according to an article over at IndeGayForum (I believe it was by Paul Varnell) most Bs eventually turn out to be–straight. At least in their public lives.
That’s one reason why I distinguish between the gay/straight dichotomy and the homo-/bi-/hetero-sexual trichotomy. Although I am over-simplifying here.
BTW, I don’t know where the Ts come into all of this. But we’ve been discussing that on other boards and frankly I’m bored with it.
“Although, to be honest, bisexuality is something that very few people give serious thought to for very long. That’s true even among LGBT folks.”
“Maybe that’s because, according to an article over at IndeGayForum (I believe it was by Paul Varnell) most Bs eventually turn out to be–straight. At least in their public lives.”
I think this is a major part of why heterosexual men are frequently anti-gay, they resent being faced with a real world example of the same sex attractions they uneasily experience. Warren says most people have experienced a same sex attraction, but when I asked him about his he acted as though the question were absurd, it struck me that he doth protest too much. I agree with Stanley Kurtz that bisexuals probably represent at least as large a group as gays and have been invisible because both sides have a vested interest in denying our existence and as Raj has said most of us have chosen to live as straight.
Agree Randi,The very real fact of people with sexual desires for both sexes is a considerable hurdle for Bem’s EBE. His collegues have raised this, and I’ve yet to see a satisfactory reply (most from Bem seem more concerned with “I didn’t say it applied to everyone” which rather side-steps the point that Bem did initially claim this to be an encompassing pathway to all sexual desires — gay/straight/whatever — and it’s a rather circular “debate”).There are other very real problems with Bem’s pathway, particularly for an American academic.Bem’s notion that the exotic (the mysterious) of your childhood determines who later becomes eroticized would suggest a very different interaction between black and white Americans than actually occurs. (Or anywhere else in the World — the British in India, Japanese in Hawaii, white and aboriginal Australians etc etc)While some, of either, do indeed have an primary erotic desire to the other race — simply because others are the other race, and at the exclusion of one’s own — this is not the overwhelming result.Leaping off from Bem — and exposing a primary flaw in the explanation — one should have seen whites EBEing blacks, and blacks EBEing whites, to the greatest degree when and where the races were most divided.Pre-Civil War? The South vs other regions? None of what should have been predicted by Bem’s EBE in fact occured. If anything, the opposite (or a neutral outcome) was the case.—-and glad you liked the word 🙂 It’s a wonder I haven’t used it before. For those who didn’t consult an online dictionary: a squib is a very small firecracker. To squib is to attempt to disrupt with something that doesn’t really make much of a noise. Hmm, must check if “squib” and “quibble” have a common root. I’d hesitate a first guess at Latin.
I’m not ex-gay, but I had some formative experiences with counselors using what I now think were informed by the retro techniques used by “reparative therapy.” Whether they were consciously rebelling against the then-less-than-fifteen-year-old APA decision to take homosexuality out of the “problem” category, or whether they simply hadn’t caught up (because they didn’t have to?), I don’t know. Anyway, I wrote about it here:
https://fetchmemyaxe.blogspot.com/2005/11/memory-lame-contd.html