The ex-gay movement exists, to a great extent, because of its usage of a language that allows them to say one thing and mean another. Sometimes this contorted way of thinking produces comical results. One such example is shown in the Love Won Out press release. In discussing mom-from-hell Nancy Heche’s presentation:
…she lost her husband to AIDS after discovering he had secretly lived a homosexual lifestyle during their marriage.
Yep. You read it right. The “homosexual lifestyle” is being married and pretending to be straight. Oh… but that’s what the ex-gays do. Darn, this is confusing.
On a more serious note, later the press release revealed the true agenda of this organization when reporting on Joe Dallas’ speech:
Also, the author asserts, the church needs to “repent of being intimidated by the gay rights movement and recommit itself to its prophetic role.” He says if Christians, who are “the conscience of the state,” allow themselves to be intimidated into silence, then “the state has no choice but to become a sociopathic state.”
And if the church allows that sociopathic, homosexuality-affirming culture’s increasing self-destructiveness to proceed unchallenged to its logical, morbid conclusions, Dallas contends, “God will require the blood of the state at the hands of his visible representation, who allowed itself to be intimidated into silence.”
Exodus, FOTF, etc. have for a while been pretending that they were simply offering an option to people who “wish to leave the homosexual lifestyle.” They’ve been saying that they aren’t trying to change those who are happy being gay.
Dallas, however is clearly stating that if the church does not fight to deny gay people any affirmation in society (read rights of any kind) then God will destroy the government.
This is not the benign offering of an option that they have been claiming.
Lies certainly come easy to these people
It’s going to be interesting to see what happens at their next Love Won Out Conference. The last one was held in Birmingham, AL. The next one is scheduled to be held in Boston, MA (that’s right, the capital of same-sex marriage), on October 29.
It’s a lot more organized glbt community, and a better educated community in general, especially with regard to gay issues.
Phil-
Oddly enough, I just posted about this Agape release on my blog also.
I, however, focused on Melissa Fryear’s astonishing claim that she has never met a gay person that has not been sexually violated.
Here is her quote, “Sexual trauma is a huge piece of the puzzle. Having talked with hundreds of homosexuals, I have never met one that had not been sexually violated in his or her life.”
I speculated that the only way she could say this would be to have some weird definition of what sexually violated meant.
re: “Sexual trauma is a huge piece of the puzzle. Having talked with hundreds of homosexuals, I have never met one that had not been sexually violated in his or her life.”
Perhaps someone should introduce her to me.
Jim- exactly what I said…
Brady,
Jeremy at GoodAsYou had the same response.
I too fall into the group that was never, in any way, sexually violated as a child. I was a virgin in all senses of the word until I was 22. I didn’t even have any touchy-feely lets-play-doctor experiences.
I suspect that she’d say I’ve just repressed the memory or that I’m simply lying. Who knows.
I find that people who work in ex-gay ministries generally say this (I’ve heard quotes from ex-gay ministers or ex-gay “experts” *cough* of 80-90% of gay people having been sexually abused).
Of course, they don’t realize that they are not getting a good sampling of *all* gay people. They’re only seeing the ones who bought into the ex-gay stuff. My hunch is that the type of people who seek ex-gay or reparative therapy are aware of abuse/trauma and that is precisely *why* they seek out the ex-gay therapy (or are more vulnerable to its claims). That is exactly why I did the ex-gay therapy. I knew that I had a lot of abuse in my past, and so it was easy to think that it must have made me gay. If I had not had the abuse background, I probably would not have entertained the thought of ex-gay/reparative therapy, because I wouldn’t have thought I had something that needed to be fixed.
Most of the gay people I know who grew up without abuse have never entertained the thought of ex-gay/reparative therapy (even if they come from fundamentalist/Christian upbringings). So these so-called ex-gay experts are only seeing part of the picture…
Why exactly is it that the fundamentalist “Christians” seem to have no problem with allowing Jews – who, after all, deny the basic tenet of the Christian religion – the divinity of the rabbi Jesus of Nazareth – to exist and operate in society, even though their children may be “infected” by a religion that is completely antagonistic to their beliefs, but get so bent out of shape about gay people? Most of us were raised Christian – certainly we are no different from the general population in our religious upbringing – and all we disagree on is a few biblical passages. Hell, Protestants and Catholics have less in common than gay and straight Christians, but somehow we are the bane of society.
Interesting, isn’t it?
This business about being sexually abused is curious to say the least. I can’t speak for every other glbt person, but those that I know have not been abused, at least that I’m aware of. Perhaps it’s in what they claim defines abuse.
What I do know is that myself and my significant other of 20+ years have never been sexually abused.
I’ve also heard that a glbt identity is caused by an absent father and an overbearing mother, or some other such poppycock. Well, my father was present to the point that I sometimes wished he would go away, and my mother, while opinionated about bigotry and idiots, was never overbearing (although I sometimes wished she would go away too, but I guess that’s a normal part of growing up).
I guess what it really boils down to is that one cannot pigeonhole people and try to make assumptions about why they are who they are. Our friends on the ex-gay movement seem to have a problem with that, as they like to see everything in terms of black and white, good or bad, etc. The human soul is not so easily defined.
The problem is they start from their conclusion that same-sex attraction must be disordered, then work backwards to create a cause for “disorder.” They encourage their clients to look for abuse or bad fathering in their pasts, which the clients obligingly do because they’re so deparate to believe they can be cured.
There’s something similar for transsexualism, except in our case since we’re roughly a generation behind LGBs in getting our rights these ridiculous theories still have some degree of official support. According to the DSM IV TR, I transitioned because I like to masturbate while I think about knitting. I kid you not, it is in the DSM.
PS CPT- fundamentalist Christians used to have exactly that attitude towards Jews until it became too socially unacceptable, at least in public. And in some ways they still do. A lot of the RR’s support for Israel is based on their interpretation of Biblical prophecy that Israel has to exist so it can be wiped out at Armageddon.
Annika said:
That’s something I’ve clearly noticed as well. Without leading anywhere in particular… I’d suggest that the childhood abuse would create (at times) an adult who continued to go looking for abuse. While some do not, I’d also suggest that a fair slab of exgay and reparative therapists provide an abusive environment — self-hating, repressive, controlling — that appeals.And you can add to the list two more guys that were never molested or abused in any way. I’m struggling to think of anyone gay who’d fit that description actually. Nope, none.I can name one person who’s father got (verbally/emotionally) abusive — but AFTER he found out his teenage son was gay… so it cannot be a cause.
According to the DSM IV TR, I transitioned because I like to masturbate while I think about knitting.I’m trying to imagine how that came up in conversation…I guess when they’re clutching for straws they don’t need to go find a whole hay shed.
Grantdate said:
“That’s something I’ve clearly noticed as well. Without leading anywhere in particular… I’d suggest that the childhood abuse would create (at times) an adult who continued to go looking for abuse. While some do not, I’d also suggest that a fair slab of exgay and reparative therapists provide an abusive environment — self-hating, repressive, controlling — that appeals.
“And you can add to the list two more guys that were never molested or abused in any way. I’m struggling to think of anyone gay who’d fit that description actually. Nope, none.
“I can name one person who’s father got (verbally/emotionally) abusive — but AFTER he found out his teenage son was gay… so it cannot be a cause.”
Exactly. And I, on the other hand, having been involved in the ex-gay movement, and been involved in several different ministries, and so during that time I knew (mostly) only those who have been abused.
It really boggled my mind when I first started meeting gay people who had not had childhood abuse, or problems with their parents (beyond the norm, or beyond the issues brought up because of coming out). I started meeting these people when I left the ex-gay circles, which is what made me go…”hmmm” about this whole issue of gays having sexual trauma in their past. Now, if I were to look at all the gay folks I know, the percentages seem to line up with society at large.
But when I was in the ex-gay scene? There was definitely an overwhelming percentage of folks that had abuse in their past (although even there, not all of it was sexual in nature).
I definitely think you might be onto something, as well, with your theory about the kind of environment that ex-gay ministries/reparative therapists provide. The other thing I’ve thought of is whether it is just more common to have abuse in fundamentalist families, which is generally where the pool of folks that attend ex-gay ministries come from.
A friend of mine pointed me to this interesting article about Melissa Fryrear, and the issue of the stories that ex-gays tell about their childhoods (that part is mostly on page 2 of the article).
Thanks Annika — Kim writes well, and good stuff in there.Snort causing quotes of the moment for me:
And that, dear readers, is how Ken “accidently” went home with a drag queen…
To me, some of the exgay stories remind me of the satanic panic stories of the 80s and 90s. We can create memories based on suggestion. In the exgay group and meetings I was in, you were basically forced to say you were molested. If you did not tell the story they wanted you to tell, they would badger you until you came up with the correct story. I was told over and over that I had to have been molested but I just wasn’t admitting it or remembering it.
I had a great childhood, and I had problems with my parents like many kids do, but my parents were great and are great. I also was not molested.
My mother went to a psychiatrist when I was a kid, and she came back with these bizarre stories about her childhood. To this day, I have no idea what was true and what was not. I suspect much of her memories are fake. For example, she said she saw her parents burying numerous dead babies behind the house (a common storyline in satanic narratives). She also said that her father would put dynamite under her bed and blow up the house and other weird memories. My mother is perfectly fine, but she still carries these weird memories that came from therapy.
So I tend to see the exgay stories in the same vein. I think they are sincere but often forced by therapy.
I must say that the language of the press release is a bit convoluted and not exactly conducive of clear meaning but when they say “God will require the blood of the state at the hands of his visible representation”, are they not saying that the church should actually go out there and destroy the state? Isn’t that a call to terrorism?
>>According to the DSM IV TR, I transitioned because I like to masturbate while I think about knitting.
I’m trying to imagine how that came up in conversation…
I guess when they’re clutching for straws they don’t need to go find a whole hay shed.
One thing to remember is that ex-gay “ministries” do attract conflicted people. So the sampling group is going to be skewed. When I was in Love in Action, there was an large percentage of men/women who had been abused. I was led to believe that the overwhelming majority of all GLBT individuals were also abused. Since then I have learned that it is not case. As Annika said above, I am finding that in the matter of childhood abuse the GLBT community is the same as statistics across the board for society in general.
As far as the absent father/overbearing mother theory is concerned, it is the major cornerstone of the ex-gay movment. The kicker is this the absenteeism (otherwise known as neglect) can be either real or perceived. During my time in LiA, this is what was taught. Since I knew that I didn’t fit the abuse angle, then this scenario must be the cause behind my homosexuality. So, through various program “tools” I delved into my past until I could make things fit. Discounting any evidence to the contrary my childhood became the absent father/over-bearing mother. The “positive affirmation” I received from the staff and other clients cemented this in my mind. It’s only recently that I have realized the amount of disservice and pain that would have caused my father and mother (even though they were there with me and supportive through the whole program). To borrow a term from LiA, I definitely need to go back and “make amends” for that.
Another manipulative point to LiA is the powerlessness list. Since LiA borrows quite a bit from the 12-steps, I don’t know if this is unique to them. Since homosexuality is treated as an addiction, the client is to come up with a list of behaviors and character traits that homosexuality has led him/her into or engendered in him/her: “my powerlessness over homosexuality has led me into….”. Again, definitions are stretched to the breaking point for behaviors to fit. For example, when in the mall I looked at or noticed men that I found attractive–their chests, their buttocks, their crotches–I even fantasized about some. I was deriving a sexual arousal or desire seeing at these men. Hence, I engaged in voyeurism.
The more items you added to your list the more positive credit you were given for being honest and dealing with your issues. Never was any one challenged that he/she was creating things that weren’t real. I started out my time in the program with a powerlessness list of about 13 items. By the time I had left it was over 30.
That’s just a few observations of my time in the ex-gay bubble.
Just to remind you, the “absent father/overbearing mother” mantra has been debunked. It was formulated by psycho-analyst Martin Bieber in the 1940s and 1950s, who (wrongly) believed that, in getting homosexuality considered a mental disorder, he would.
His theory was debunked at Is Homosexuality Caused by Son-Father Estrangement? https://hem.passagen.se/nicb/quinn.htm
Perhaps the childhood abuse is not a factor that arises among gay people. It could just as easily be a feature of conservative Chrisitianity as that is the background from which almost all exgays come. I always wonder when some gay activist will start to make an issue of this. That the abuse is part and parcel of the cC world.
Raj.
I kust looked over the exellent link you provided. Thanks for sharing.
Re: It could just as easily be a feature of conservative Chrisitianity as that is the background from which almost all exgays come… the abuse is part and parcel of the cC world.
I’m not so sure. My observation growing up in a very cC environment that most visible signs of abuse were in irreligious households. Makes sense, given that visible abuse and Christianity would be seen as scandalously incompatible.
Hidden abuse, who knows? Sure it happens in religious and non-religious households alike, but I haven’t seen anything that suggests a correlation between abuse and religiosity in either direction. Statistics would be useful if this suspicion is to be substantiated.
There’s no reason to believe that ex-gays are any more representative of conservative Christianity than they are of gays.
Well, if that weak father theory was real, then Zach’s father should have a problem with LIA/R and Mr. Stark wouldn’t have participated in an interview with Pat R. that in a way, creates a ridiculous contradiction.
Ministers like Jesse Peterson, DL Foster, James Dobson and their ilk, will say they have nothing against gay people, but are extremely active in perpetuating stereotype and prejudice against gay people.
This is speaking with two mouths from two faces, and in the middle is conceit and moral cowardice.
They speak as if on intellectual and knowlegable terms and authority on their selected subject with people they feel certain won’t investigate further or challenge them on their contradictions.
And refuse to answer those who do. Or what responses are offered, are often terse and dismissive and never a part of a real dialogue, but there is never an EXPLANATION.
The conceit is that they behave as if their position is never to be challenged, the cowardice is that they never stand up to a challenge and tend to obfuscate the most important aspects that motivate them to begin with.
It boils down to gays and lesbians being treated like perpetual children, incapable of self determination and freedom and ministers taking the role of father/disciplinarian.
‘This we know best and we’re tyrannizing you for your own good’ politics has been visited on other groups before and didn’t work.
But the ministers mentioned (and those like them) don’t refer to that historical and empirical evidence to inform them.
They’d rather skip over that as if it never happened and there is no reference point to show how WRONG they are.
I find people like this as offensive and destructive and those who deny the Holocaust didn’t really happen either.
I just wish, once and for all-that those in the anti gay movement will at least admit, that ONLY sexual attraction to and sex with one’s same gender is the ONLY thing that’s different that gay people do from hetero people.
It’s just DIFFERENT, period.
The problem is that heterosexuals are speaking with these two mouths.
1. They think they are the cure for homosexuality, while at the same time, are the BIGGEST problem that gay people have.
2. They want gays and lesbians to be sexual saints, while at the same time consider them hopeless sinners for EVERYTHING else.
3. Denying that they engage in this dichotomy in the first place.
4. Who died and promoted heterosexuals into the position that they were the greatest thing since sex was created? Other heterosexuals that’s who.
And as I am suspicious of all holy writ because no women participated in their creation, I am always suspicious of heterosexuals who have self determined theirs is the only legitimate orientation that’s supposed to exist.
This isn’t rocket science…it’s simple.
We’re all here together, always have been and will be…heterosexuality and homosexuality are a fused and normal aspect of human existence and sexuality, not at odds with one another.
I think that anyone who says otherwise is just too damn dumb or arrogant to get that simple truth figured out and made up all the other crap to hide that fact they don’t have the intellect to know any better or the backbone to want to try to.
And I’m only getting really, really pissy about it because yet another beautiful and smart young gay person called me and told me about their fractured relationship with their parent, and I get upset all over again at who is playing god with good people’s lives.
Some thoughts:
I grew up in a conservative Christian environment and was that kid to whom the other kids told their secrets. I don’t think there must much abuse going on either physical, sexual, or emotional. There was one guy who was molesting his kids, but I had figured out that something was odd long before it came out. Perhaps there’s a greater level of abuse in CC environments, but I highly doubt it.
…
The ex-gay movement, like most folks, tends to think the world is homogenous and is just like what they see everyday. We do this too. How many times have you heard something like “How could Bush have won? I don’t know anyone who voted for him!” If they see only abused gay people, that’s what they think gay people are.
…
Abused people often need therapy. Gay people who are raised to believe they are an abomination often need therapy. Sometimes either group can work it out on their own or with friends/ministers/etc. But abused plus abomination equals really need help to work it out.
I find it interesting that sometimes we hear from the survivors of the ex-gay groups, that they found support for part of the problem and then had the strength to leave the ex-gay group and resolve the “abomination” issue on their own. If the ex-gay groups simply focused on healing the abuse, they would be doing a tremendous service.
Timothy said:
“I find it interesting that sometimes we hear from the survivors of the ex-gay groups, that they found support for part of the problem and then had the strength to leave the ex-gay group and resolve the “abomination” issue on their own. If the ex-gay groups simply focused on healing the abuse, they would be doing a tremendous service.”
This is exactly my story, Timothy. I found quite a bit of healing for my own childhood abuse issues through the ex-gay groups I attended. I also found myself changed with regard to a number of other issues, including my view of myself as a woman (which is another thing that ex-gay groups promote). And for quite a while, I understood this to be the same as being ex-gay. Guess what? It’s not. I am a completely different person in many ways from when I started being involved in the ex-gay world. But I’m still very much a lesbian.
That said, I’m not trying to advocate that people go to ex-gay groups for therapy for abuse issues. Because along with the “healing” – I also picked up lots of extra shame and baggage that I sure didn’t need…I could have gotten the same healing for my issues through private (non-reparative) therapy and not wasted so many years in a fantasy world of feeling ashamed of who I was, feeling inferior to others, wanting to change, thinking I’d changed, trying to deal with the reality in the back of my mind that I hadn’t changed, etc.
Well, there’s abuse and there’s abuse.
The mind**ck has to be the most common and frustrating of all. Even for me.
Heterosexuals love playing games, with words, politics, gay lives…and all the while denying they have anything to do with gay folk’s problems.
Mind**cking is what heterosexuals do best…they know it. Just won’t admit.
And that is the most profound abuse of all.
>>The mind**ck has to be the most common and frustrating of all. Even for me.
Heterosexuals love playing games, with words, politics, gay lives…and all the while denying they have anything to do with gay folk’s problems.
Mind**cking is what heterosexuals do best…they know it. Just won’t admit.
And that is the most profound abuse of all.