Deborah Feyerick covered the LIA / conversion therapy story last night on CNN. She glossed over many of the rules that have bloggers upset, generalizing them as “no flashy clothes” and “no touching.”
She prominently featured LIA resident Ben Marshall. Marshall described how he was drug there kicking and screaming, and Feyerick notes that he not only survived the program, but decided to stay eight months. Later in the segment, he says that he is better in control of his lust, and that he hopes to marry a woman. She mentions Zach in passing (and not by name), and relates Zach’s initial upset to Marshall’s.
She also featured Brandon Tidwell, who went through three months of the LIA program before reconciling his Christianity with his homosexuality. Tidwell does not denounce the program, get more than one minute of the six minute segment, or mention any of the rules of the program or its success rate.
She introduced Dr. Jack Drescher, an APA psychologist, with the line “But others say…” and edited his part down to less than 30 seconds. The condemnation of reparative therapy by the APA, AMA, or other medical organizations was not mentioned, nor were any of the studies associated with those resolutions.
Addenda:
My personal take on every ex gay I ever had contact with….
ConversionBOTS.
They all walk and talk the same.
“Invasion of the Body Snatchers” seriously comes to mind.
“Later in the segment, he says that he is better in control of his lust, and that he hopes to marry a woman.”
Have you ever notice how little compassion the ex-gay groups have for women? It’s almost as if the emotions of women don’t count. They are there to support their man.
As anyone at the Straight Spouse Network would tell you (www.ssnetwk.org), gay men should NOT marry women. It is cruel.
And to suggest that a women should accept a man whose primary sexual desire is not towards her is, frankly, sexist.
Here’s the transcript:
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Memphis, Tennessee, home to the blues, Elvis, some 2,000 churches and one program that claims to help gay and lesbian teenagers give up homosexuality.
(on camera): How many teens are here at any given time?
REV. JOHN SMID, LOVE IN ACTION: We have had anywhere from two to six at any given time in the youth program. One of the reasons, of course, as you have experienced…
FEYERICK (voice-over): It’s called Refuge. And it’s run by Reverend John Smid as part of a larger program, Love in Action.
(on camera): So, when people say you cure gays, what’s your answer?
SMID: I don’t cause it; I don’t cure it; I don’t create it. There is no way I can cure gays. There isn’t a cure for homosexuality. What we find is, there is an opportunity to learn how to live responsibly, even with homosexual attractions or desires.
FEYERICK: But that’s not the way 18-year-old Ben Marshall first saw it. Last summer, his parents told him he was going, whether he liked it or not.
B. MARSHALL: I was just so angry that my parents weren’t accepting who I thought I was and that they were sending me to get fixed. I told all my friends they were sending me to straight camp.
FEYERICK: Religion has always been a big part of Ben Marshall’s life. He was raised Southern Baptist. His parents were strict. Dating wasn’t allowed. Then, last year, Ben told friends he was gay.
B. MARSHALL: It was surprising to me how much — people just flocked to me after I came out and how all these people that I considered untouchable, as far as popularity was concerned, wanted to hang out with me now.
FEYERICK: Three months later, the boy who had never dated anyone was with his first serious relationship with a high school senior. It was short. It was painful and Ben wondered whether it was right.
B. MARSHALL: And that became my identity, was just Ben, the homosexual. I liked the attention that I got from that.
FEYERICK: His parents, Sharon and Larry, didn’t like it at all.
L. MARSHALL: I had had enough as a parent, and I felt that, with my beliefs and with my rights, that this is the way it’s going to be.
FEYERICK: Sharon packed up the family camper, leaving Pensacola, Florida, driving Ben eight hours to Tennessee.
SHARON MARSHALL, MOTHER OF BEN: And I said, OK, Lord, we’re going to go to Memphis.
FEYERICK: In Memphis, they met program director Reverend Smid. Married 16 years, he renounced his own homosexuality two decades ago after attending a similar program. At Refuge, there is no touching, no flashy clothes. Teens and young adults study scripture, attend group therapy, pray and keep journals, what they call moral inventories.
SMID: When they express things that have gone on internally, and they find other people have shared those thoughts and feelings, it actually releases the shame.
FEYERICK: Yet others say the opposite is true.
DR. JACK DRESCHER, AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION: It increases their feeling of shame. It increases their feeling of failure. it makes them feel worse about themselves when they’re done.
FEYERICK: Dr. Jack Drescher has written a book on homosexuality and psychoanalysis. He says programs like Love in Action are misguided.
DRESCHER: It offers the possibility that somehow homosexuality is a result of not being religious enough, not having enough faith, and if you just increase your faith, then that should help the homosexuality go away, which would be nice, I suppose, if that were true.
FEYERICK: Not being religious enough certainly wasn’t true for evangelical Christian Brandon Tidwell. In the summer of 2002, he spent three months at Love in Action’s adult program.
BRANDON TIDWELL, LOVE IN ACTION GRADUATE: I was at a place of such desperation, believing that the only alternative was to not be gay, not being able to see things from a different perspective that I see it from now. And so it was, in my opinion, the last and only attempt to get fixed.
FEYERICK: But something else happened instead.
TIDWELL: I realized, quite quickly, that I could be a person of faith and embrace who God had made me to be.
FEYERICK: Tidwell, a trained social worker, is critical of Love in Action’s counselors. Only one is licensed. Last month, state agencies began investigating after a teenager entering the program described his feelings of depression on a Web log. Reverend Smid is confident the state will find nothing wrong. But the blog struck a chord with Ben Marshall.
B. MARSHALL: There was one comment that he made about, if he did come out fixed on the other side, he was going to be so depressed and emotionally unstable. That was what I kept telling my parents, so…
FEYERICK: Yet, not only did Ben survive the initial two-week program. He stayed eight months.
B. MARSHALL: There is that lust that’s still there. It’s subsiding. I don’t know that it will ever go away altogether. But it’s not nearly as strong as it used to be. I don’t go to the same places in my head that I used to.
FEYERICK: Asked if he’s gay?
B. MARSHALL: I have trouble with the word gay, period, because that is a label, and I don’t necessarily think anyone is clearly heterosexual or homosexual.
FEYERICK: Before Love in Action, Ben planned to go to New York to study journalism. Now he’s part of a church group and plans to study psychology in Memphis, with an eye towards theology and a seminary. As for a wife and children:
B. MARSHALL: I think it’s possible. I think I’m attracted to women enough right now that it can eventually develop into a relationship. I know I’m capable of that. If it don’t get that, that’s fine. Celibacy is an option for me right now.
FEYERICK: Texas-born Brandon Tidwell is also staying in Memphis. He goes to church regularly with his new boyfriend and trains young people to become community leaders.
TIDWELL: I have never felt more true to myself, more true to my community, more true to my family and to my relationship with God than I do now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Deborah Feyerick giving us a very good idea of why these conversion programs remain so controversial.
Yes, they have some doozy of stories on Straight Spouse Network from time to time don’t they.The quotes from the pro-LIA “graduate” should give fair warning to any young lady about being a future member of SSN!Quotes of the segment:Smid“There isn’t a cure for homosexuality.” (he teaches people to “live responsibly”)Ben“There is that lust that’s still there” … “I don’t go the same placs in my head” … “I don’t think anyone is clearly homosexual or heteroseual” … “I think that I’m attracted to women enough now [to get married]”. So no evidence of change, but evidence of reframing.Brandon reporter did voice over that he was “critical of LIA counselors, only one is licensed” and then mentioned the investigation into LIA being unlicensed for therapy provision. Ironically, Brandon was titled as a “Love in Action Graduate” — hmmm, I wonder how many others would graduate a self-described “failure”.Dr Jack was clearly labelled as speaking on behalf of the Psychiatric Association.All in all, reasonable for tabloid journalism — but still no tough questioning, and complete reliance on testimony. In other words, some parents will continue think it doesn’t work; others will continue to think it’d be a fab. idea for their homosexual spawn. No attempt at resolution.
Damn Timothy, too fast for me — obviously your broadband connection wasn’t having a hissy fit!
grantdale
“Ironically, Brandon was titled as a “Love in Action Graduate””
Good catch. Just like everything else about the ex/anti-gay movement, it’s all about redefining words. In the ex-gay world words never mean what they do in the real world.
Real world definition of graduate: person who has completed a course having achieved at least a minimum standard according to its stated goals.
Ex-gay definition of graduate: person who attended a course for some prescribed time with or without any perceivable accomplishment towards its stated goals.
I think it is important to talk about WHAT exactly the professional organizations oppose
Ray Fowler, CEO of the American Psychological Association, states:
“The APA’s position on reparative therapy is that those who wish to explore developing heterosexual feelings or behavior have a right to do so as part of every client’s right to self-determination. If an individual is comfortable with homosexuality, it is not the role of the therapist to convince the client otherwise. If one’s feelings are ego-dystonic and there is a desire to talk about changing, that is an acceptable choice and a psychologist may participate if he or she desires.” (The Utah Psychologist, Winter 1998, p. 11)
What the APA really opposes is coerced change, as in the case of Zach. The APA also opposes telling someone that being gay per se is bad. What they support is when someone who truly is unhappy being gay, wants to explore other options besides living an openly gay life. Living an openly gay life is NOT the only option for someone with same sex attraction. I’m sure Mike Airhart would agree with me on this.
Wanting to develop heterosexual feelings and desires is different from reparative therapy, in my opinion, because the latter operates from the premise that being gay is always bad, where as the former need not operate from such a premise.
But why anybody would need therapy to explore their heterosexual potential is beyond me. As Raj said, they should “do it.” Seems like someone can do it on their own if they have sufficient self understanding, and if their sexuality is sufficiently fluid.
Peter
Peter,
You are using language pretty loosely here when you say “What they SUPPORT is when someone who truly is unhappy being gay, wants to explore other options besides living an openly gay life.” [my emphasis]
What Fowler actually says is “If one’s feelings are ego-dystonic and there is A DESIRE TO TALK ABOUT changing, that is an ACCEPTABLE choice and a psychologist may participate if he or she desires”. [my emphasis]
There’s a universe of difference between “I support” and “that is acceptable to talk about”.
Or as I would phrase it: I certainly wouldn’t support someone spending time, effort, and money to chase a goal that AT BEST has a 30% success rate (which I very much doubt) in turning you celibate (as opposed to heterosexual) and at worst leaves you depressed and suicidal. But if you want to talk about it in therapy, go right ahead.
Andrew wrote:
The condemnation of reparative therapy by the APA, AMA, or other medical organizations was not mentioned, nor were any of the studies associated with those resolutions.
Seriously, where are the studies? The APA had cast doubts on reorientation before any studies were done. Read the first page of Shidlo and Shroeder’s 2002 study and they admit that their study was the first. The APA’s actions on this issue are not based on data and research.
Maybe you can help me out Warren. Where is there data to support Alan Chambers ever growing statements about the number of ex-gays in existance?
2003 – Thousands
2004 – Tens of Thousands
2005 – Hundreds of Thousands
I’m curious to know how the ex-gay movement is tracking their numbers. How long do they follow their subjects? Is there anything peer reviewed to back up these claims of sustained change?
Scott,
you will be waiting a very, very, very long time if you are waiting for Warren Throckmorton to actually answer a question. It doesn’t happen. He isn’t interested in dialog.
And as Doc Throc considers himself separate from the bizarre statements of Alan and his cohorts (going so far as to criticize LIA/R), I’m sure he won’t touch Alan’s ever increasing numbers with a ten foot pole (or hundred foot pole, oops now it’s a thousand foot pole).
He will, however, from time to time, jump in to refute some tiny portion of a statement. And then he’s off – never to answer any challenges to his statements.
Warren,You know very well that Dr Haldeman published his paper in 1998 — The Pseudo-science of Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapy.The APA warned of the potential for harm in December 1998, based on this AND the experiences of therapists who gave their views.And how do I know that you knew?Warren, you referenced Haldeman’s paper and others in 2002.The APA did not need to know what proportion of clients were harmed by exgay therapy in order to make that warning — all they needed was sufficient cause for concern.Mike A. could you please check the when and how this last message was received from Warren (ISP etc) and let me know by email. Tks.
I got a better question, if ex gays are now confirmed heterosexuals and heterosexuals are the majority, isn’t asserting that people who AREN’T homosexual really REDUNDANT ?
Gay people are a distinct and symbiotic minority fighting to survive. And deserve to, so we’ll know more and understand this vital part of all humanity.
Self determination is in everyone’s DNA.
Why such a war on homosexuals? Where just mentioning you’re not heterosexual isn’t allowed without social risks.
Aren’t there ENOUGH heterosexuals in this world?
Jews are another minority constantly under seige.
Southern Baptists set aside two days out of the year to try and convert Jews to Christianity.
What a horrible world this would be that all gay people or Jews should disappear as no one really knows who they are, or wouldn’t know if none are here to tell their story.
Up until very recently, the only people who DID talk about gay people (and badly), including whoever wrote about them in the Bible, was a heterosexual.
The revolution with the DSM finally came about when Dr. Evelyn Hooker got the bright idea to consult with GAY PEOPLE… and other research jumped off from there.
Before that, anything know about gay people was second and third hand…also known as heresay.
Heresay isn’t valid in the law, let alone for scientific conclusions and empirical data.
If ex gay ministry is successful, there would be and according to them, there ARE a lot more heterosexuals running around.
More self congratulation from the ex gay supporters that there are less and less gay people around.
And I’m supposed to be impressed and thankful for that?
I hate the very idea that gay people struggle for SELF determination.
I hate all this back patting that gay people are compromised and their numbers are shrinking.
That’s APPALLING that a gay person is disappeared because of the traditional belief that ONLY heterosexuals matter.
I’m tired of gay people being treated like badly behaving children who aren’t entitled to having what every other adult has legally.
The rote theories that are the agenda of ex gay ministries care nothing for individuals, but comformity to an impossible ideal that even original heterosexuals aren’t concerned with.
The eternal darkness of the cowardly mind…
I signed on for the 21st century, this new millenium.
These ministries are dragging the unwilling back to the 19th.
Just cause they aren’t ready for it, doesn’t mean the rest of the world shouldn’t be.
For those who wish to, Haldeman’s paper is available hereThis really is highly irregular behaviour by Warren and I do intend to pass this exchange forward.
Damn typos.That should read 1999 for Haldeman’s publish date (part of the work leading into the APA decision). The other “December 1998” is correct.Better check…. Yes I did type 1998 for that one. Phew.
Back again,I knew there was an earlier mention of this subject by Warren, but couldn’t remember off the top of my head where I saw it. I’ve now placed it, therefore may refer to it 🙂
Happily, Warren has also date-placed the original Haldeman work for us
1994. 2 years leading up to 1997. March 1998… that’s the history being rewritten, apparently.
Warren asks: ‘Seriously, where are the studies? The APA had cast doubts on reorientation before any studies were done. Read the first page of Shidlo and Shroeder’s 2002 study and they admit that their study was the first. The APA’s actions on this issue are not based on data and research.’
One factor driving the APA on this was the internal collapse of the studies done before the early 1970’s. Martin Duberman’s ‘Cures’ goes into this process, as does Larry Kramer in passing. As do both Gore Vidal and Midge Decter Podhoretz. What was increasingly evident in the late 1960’s was the very visible gay presence of people who were presented in the studies as ‘changed’. Rather than go through the studies and edit them to reflect the lack of change, it was easier to simply abandon the whole project. What is being ignored by Warren is that the whole body of studies that supported change were in serious danger of collapsing from the weight of subjects who were saying that they had lied to escape from further torture. It needs to be kept in mind that no patient from the ‘golden age of psychiatric reparative therapy’ is today a public exgay. And that there are a number who denounce the whole movement as quakery. What we see in the current exgay situation is but a pale reflection of what was once a major movement in psych* type treatments that nowadays is confined to religious fringe elements.
Hi all, the above comments are mine. For some reason TypeKey did not attach my name to them. I do not why this is so, but it did happen even after I had signed in. Very sucky.
Timothy,
Rationalize it if you need, if it makes you feel better about yourself, but the statement is pretty clear: the APA supports the clients right to self determination, whether that implies gay affirmative or re-orientation therapy.
You seem to forget that psychological therapy implies talking, so talking about changing often is the beginning of re-orientation therapy. What would be the point in dictating what is important to talk about? Clearly, we don’t need to be told by Dr. Fowler what we (as the patient) can or can’t talk about. In other words, you are grasping at straws.
Clearly, you missed the greater point about the difference between reparative therapy and therapy to develop one’s heterosexual potential, which to me is two different things.
Peter,The Commercial World also supports a clients right to lather themselves with expensive “anti-aging” creams. They don’t work. What’s your point?
I just watched part I of this last night. I have part II on DVR right now. Anyway, I found this quote particularly interesting:
“B. MARSHALL: It was surprising to me how much — people just flocked to me after I came out and how all these people that I considered untouchable, as far as popularity was concerned, wanted to hang out with me now.”
This just sounded so strange to me. Certainly this is not the case with most gay people (not with any gay people I know, especially in high school). I wonder if this was a conclusion he arrived at himself or something that was suggested to him as one of the reasons he was gay.
Peter,
With all due respect and without trying to be confrontational, I don’t think that I am the one trying to rationalize or grasp at straws.
I readily concede that one of the APA’s says that it isn’t unethical to delve into discussion with a client about their unwanted orientation.
However, you seem insistent on using “support”. There’s nothing in the statement by Dr. Fowler that suggests that he, the APA, or anyone else supports this direction, but rather only that it would be an allowable course of discourse.
As to “developing your heterosexual potential” being different from “reparative therapy”, I frankly don’t see it as all that different but if you do, fine. No problem. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with the quote from Fowler.
It seems to me that you’ve found one quote that says basically “We don’t oppose discussing unwanted sexual orientation” and turned it into “We support developing your heterosexual potential”.
Peter, you may search for whatever heterosexual potential you may have and best of luck with it. If it makes you happy or brings you peace, I am glad for you (as long as you don’t use it as a tool to oppress others).
But don’t use magical thinking. Don’t see one thing (for example Fowler’s quote of acceptance) and think it’s another (an endorsement).
In the long run you’ll be much happier if you see reality as reality. Perhaps if you do, you will find your true sexual potential – be it heterosexual or gay.
The second part of this story was far better done than the first. They asked hard questions and brought up salient points about the APA’s position on this type of therapy.
I still am wondering why LIA would send a low-level (from what I can tell) staffer out to handle the press like this. He really was in over his head in the interview at the end of Part II.
Peter
I have an issue with the referal of Love In Action’s therapy being “coerced” as a gaduate of the program, who went against my will, I can assure you that the decision to start listeing to and accepting their teachings was etirely my own. A person dead set on embracing homosexuality, such as Brandon Tidwell, can easily leave the program having never embraced any of the teachings. It’s a choice made, or not made, by each individual client, and, as I’m sure you’re well aware, it’s not made by all of them.
Love in Action (successful) Graduate
Marshall,
I have an issue with people who tend to to make absurd accusations without any substance. Why the hell would Tidwell volontarily join the LIA program out of desperation if he was set on ’embracing homosexuality’ in the first place? Tell me, I’m dying to hear your answer.
As for your decision to start listening when you were there, what really triggered your decision?
RE: Ben Marshall
I have an issue with the referal of Love In Action’s therapy being “coerced” as a gaduate of the program, who went against my will, I can assure you that the decision to start listeing to and accepting their teachings was etirely my own. A person dead set on embracing homosexuality, such as Brandon Tidwell, can easily leave the program having never embraced any of the teachings. It’s a choice made, or not made, by each individual client, and, as I’m sure you’re well aware, it’s not made by all of them.
What it seems to me, Ben, is that your problem isn’t so much with homosexuality, but your complete lack of a back bone, and the ability to stand on your own two feet without looking for scape goats for failings in your life.
So what, you had a relationship, and it was crappy – you thought you’d be together forever – just like any other teen, be it heterosexual or homosexual.
What you need to do is pick yourself up by your boot straps sunshine, grow back bone, and be a man rather than blaming everyone else for your own short comings.
The things you’ve gone through seem to be the poster boy for the ex-gay movement – life going down the toilet, but instead of acting like an adult and accepting responsibility for the choices YOU made as an ADULT, you blame your sexuality – its a cop out, plain and simple.