Psychotherapist Joe Kort wrote a book, published last year, titled 10 Smart Things Gay Men Can Do to Improve Their Lives.
What smart things does Kort recommend?
- Take Charge of Their Own Lives
- Affirm Themselves by Coming Out
- Resolve Differences With Parents and Relatives
- “Graduate” From Delayed Adolescence
- Avoid — or Overcome — Sexual Addiction
- Learn from Successful Mentors Who’ve Been There, Done That
- Take Advantage of “Therapy Workouts”
- Achieve — and Maintain — Rewarding Relationships
- Understand the Stages of Love
- Commit to Their Partner
As it happens, I’ve been suggesting some similar steps to ex-gays, even if they opt not to identify as gay.
But is that wise? How should this advice differ for ex-gays?
As always, constructive gay, exgay and nongay reader comments are welcome.
Most ex-gay literature I’ve read simply says that these things such as commitment, affirmation, good family relations and so forth, simply can not exist in someone who identifies as gay.
I have to admit, I find the above points to be vaguely patronising and insulting. The idea that homosexuals require special ‘help’, as though our minds are so radically warped by all the rampant sex we have, seems to be pop psychology at its worst.
And, like all pop psychology, it’s also slightly contradictory: at number one we are told to ‘Take charge of their own lives’, but then we are asked to ‘Learn from Successful Mentors’ and ‘Commit to Their Partner’: surely submitting to a mentor (who does he think would makea good ‘mentor’?) or committing to a partner are all about letting someone else take charge of part of your life?
And ‘Understand the Stages of Love’ seems to be the worst, as though love is a process that is the same for everyone, as though love can be predicted.
All of the points could easily apply to straight people equally well: I see no other reason for this book other than to sell copies to desperately unhappy gay people. Its only advantage is that it might steal some of the shelf-space away from books about reparative therapy.
Like Ricardo, I would consider this “pop-psych advice” rather than “psych advice.” And I also agree with Ricardo that the ten points are also applicable to straight people. Maybe Mr. Kort wants to become the Dr. Phil for gay people. I doubt that there is anything wrong with that. The ten points mentioned seem fine to me.
However, I did want to question Ricardo’s comment “And ‘Understand the Stages of Love’ seems to be the worst, as though love is a process that is the same for everyone, as though love can be predicted.” I haven’t read Mr. Kort’s book to find out what he is referencing there, but I have had some experience in the matter, and I have chatted with others who also have had some experience. For many people, relationships often start with a period of infatuation. After that period, there is often a bit of a feeling of boredom. It’s during that period that people tend to break up. If that period can be successfully navigated, relationships enter a period in which they are often much more long-lasting. So, I tend to agree that there are stages to love, although clearly they are not the same for all, and they will certainly differ in detail.
While the points are applicable to straight people, I think gay men are likely to feel a lot more comfortable reading advice written for them and not for “you and your girlfriend” with unsettling reminders of how different your girlfriend is from you.
And I think there are a lot of people, regardless of orientation, who feel that simple step-by-step guides help fill in the blank spots in their lives, more than a professional science journal would.
Hmm… I’m always surprised by what people find “patronizing and insulting.” I didn’t find Kort’s list to be that at all. Sure, distilling life choices down into a series of ten easily-digested points is oversimplification, but there is a lot of wisdom there. Of course, those catch-all phrases may not best express Kort’s discussion of each point. I think we should keep that in mind when discussing this list.
I agree with raj that there are stages of love, and this is one area that many gay men–at least in my experience–don’t seem to grasp effectively. The inability to communicate wants and needs regarding love, and the assumption that dating relationships should be blissfully romantic all the time, and when they aren’t, then something is wrong and it’s time to break up, is a consistent, immature behavior I see all the time, regardless of the ages of the participants.
Also, Ricardo’s critical remarks regarding Kort’s advice to take advantage of gay mentors and commit to one’s partner isn’t the first time I’ve heard such criticisms. I daresay that they say more about the person being critical than the advice itself. Perhaps *I’m* playing pop psychologist here, but those criticisms indicate to me that the person making them has taken rugged individualism to an extreme as a way to avoid getting hurt again, or being controlled again (either by a parent, a former lover or perhaps, a social/religious group with a negative view of homosexuality). However, such “I’m in total control here” attitudes can ultimately lead to isolation and heartbreak. Trust and interdependency (*not* co-dependency–there’s a difference) is vital to a healthy, happy life, and I think that’s all that Kort is trying to say with these two pieces of advice. (I realize that this response is inspired by some assuptions I’ve made about you, Ricardo, so please feel free to correct me if they don’t totally apply to you. However, I believe my general assumptions to be on the mark, regardless.)
Of course, based on this list, we don’t know who Kort considers a “good mentor,” so I don’t think we should beat him up without knowing the details. In my life, I’ve gained great advice from older gay men, especially about what makes a relationship work. I don’t have to agree with all the opinions or advice a person gives, but I think it’s important to remain teachable. We don’t know (and haven’t experienced) everything, and those that have gone before us can provide a lot of wisdom, even by their mistakes.
Lastly, commitment to one’s partner is not a sign of weakness or merely a desire to give control to a stronger individual. But, at the same time, true commitment requires trust, and that can be difficult for anyone who has had a history of negative experiences regarding relationships. So, criticizing Kort for promoting commitment to a partner reflects more about the critic’s personal issues with commitment, not the nature of commitment itself, which I believe to be healthy and rewarding.
Christopher: I appreciate the attempt to analyse me, although I hope you’ll forgive me for pointing out the obvious issue with answering my criticisms of pop psychology with more of your own platitudes. Obviously, since I don’t subscribe to pop-psych I’m just going to ignore your vague comments about my personal life and state of mind.
What concerns me is this idea that love and commitment is an automatic recipe for happiness. You cannot reduce love to ‘prozac for life’: in my experience love can be hard and commitment can be as difficult as being on your own. Despite what Christopher’s says, I don’t believe a relationship makes your problems go away. Being alone does not denote some deep seated deficiency. On the contrary, I have a great deal of respect for those individuals who have the strength of personality to go it alone without the need to devote themselves to another person. Equally, I have the greatest respect to those who have, against the odds, made their relationships work.
What I find most concerning about the Kort’s book is that basically its advise on how to conform to what Kort and everyone else expects of gay people, rather than what might actually make you happy. In the new climate of acceptance are we just to replace gay stereotypes of promiscous gay men with straight stereotypes of enforced monogamy?
Actually, I’d be interested to know what hard, scientific evidence they have to back up the claims and ‘advice’ these pop-psych books give? How disputed is their advice and what other mental health professionals and psychiatrists/psychologists think of them?
Yes, the list is simplistic. Yes, there are many gay people who do not need such advice because they are stable and capable individuals. Yet, my experience and observations tell me that within the gay community there is profound dysfunction. Is there dysfunction among straights? Yes, of course, but I dare say the proportion of dysfunctional individuals to functional individuals is greater in the gay community – and I know there are very legitimate reasons for this. Yet, having to restate the obvious is sometimes absolutely necessary for those attempting to re-orient their lives from dysfunction into a life that is healthy, sane, and stable.
The list presented by Kort is good advice and good things to remember. Should we not “take charge of our own lives?” Should we not “affirm ourselves by coming out?” Should we not “graduate from delayed adolescence?” And so forth… Yes, we should do all of those things and I am thankful for the reminder – and that such things are being advanced within the gay community. We for too long have done too much that is in opposition to our desire for health, enriching relationships, stability, and happiness.
Perhaps, but is there any concrete evidence backing this up? Or is this just anecdotal evidence from glancing observation? I know there are higher suicide rates amongst young homosexuals who have just come out but that’s unrelated to the issue of commitment.
I would imagine that homosexuals are no more or less likely to be ‘dysfunctional’ (whatever that really means) than straight people. We all have our crosses to bear: some of us are rejected by our families (and not just gay people), some of us feel lonely, some of us long for love.
healthy, sane, and stable
I suppose that depends on how you define healthy, sane and stable. Those words are heavily loaded with negative assumptions and presumptions about what is healthy, sane and ‘stable’. The context they are used here seems suspiciously close to how the ex-gay and anti-gay lobbies use them.
Should we not “affirm ourselves by coming out?” Should we not “graduate from delayed adolescence?”
To me these are just seem like meaningless platitudes. Coming out is good advice for everyone and it doesn’t really need writing down, or indeed, a whole chapter of a book to itself. “graduate from delayed adolescence?” Surely, we can all stand to be a little more mature, gay or straight. In my exprience, there are just as many straights suffering peter pan syndrome as gay.
From the little that is published about it in the links above the book just seems to cynically exploit gay stereotypes that many homosexuals themselves are sensitive about.
I can’t say I’m entirely surprised by your response, Ricardo. It certainly is much easier to dismiss my observations out of hand as mere “platitudes,” then respond to things I never said, rather than actually address any points I raised.
For starters, I never once said (or inferred) that a relationship “makes your problems go away.” In fact, I stated quite the opposite by pointing out how–in my experience–many gay men assume that a successful relationship is defined by a false notion of endless bliss. Perhaps you skipped over that part. Relationships can be hard work. They often require sacrifice, as well as the necessity to consider others’ needs as important as your own. But the growth potential and shared history that they offer are positive things. The need to form a close bond is not something that gay people do because they want to ape heterosexuals. Rather, it’s a deep human need regardless of one’s orientation. Are some people better off being single? Sure. But they’re the exception to the rule. (That’s why exceptions to the rules are called “exceptions.”) For the vast majority of people, a close romantic bond based on mutual love and respect is a healthy, rewarding thing. You don’t need to run a government study to see that. It’s just basic common sense. I don’t understand why you feel motivated to criticize someone who encourages others to pursue that level of commitment.. (Well, I could guess–and I’d probably be right–but it would likely piss you off, so I won’t.)
I also take exception to your statement that Kort’s advice “cynically exploits gay stereotypes,” but I will agree that these are issues that “homosexuals themselves are sensitive about.” Why? Because those of us who are paying attention can look around and see that the issues that Kort speaks to are reality in many gay mens’ lives. Not *everyone*, but many people.
However, if you are So Experienced and Wise™ that you don’t need Kort’s advice, great! The book clearly wasn’t intended for you. But there is a severe lack of common sense out in the world today, regardless of whether people are gay or straight, and these self-help books can serve their purpose. In this case, it’s tailored to a particular target market. To some of us, especially those of us who are older, the advice may seem obvious, but to the average college-age gay boy who wants more than the facile relationships he’s cultivated through bars, clubs and gay chat rooms, this book appears like a decent first step in that direction.
Christopher: I can’t say I’m entirely surprised by your response, Ricardo. It certainly is much easier to dismiss my observations out of hand as mere “platitudes,” then respond to things I never said, rather than actually address any points I raised.
Ahem, sorry, Christopher, but I like my observations to be based upon evidence and facts, not conjecture and hyperbole. Perhaps by attacking me you hoped to discredit my argument, a common logical fallacy. However, arguer and argument are seperate things. Your criticisms of me are easy to dismiss, not because I ignore them, but because you obviously cannot know enough about me to make such judgements.
For the vast majority of people, a close romantic bond based on mutual love and respect is a healthy, rewarding thing. You don’t need to run a government study to see that. It’s just basic common sense.
Actually, I would argue that you do some sort of evidence to back up your arguments. Calls to ‘common sense’ fall on deaf ears with many people, including myself. What is held to be common sense varies widely from person to person. A few hundred years ago it was ‘common sense’ that the world was flat. Many ex-gays think it’s ‘common sense’ that sexuality is changeable and that you’ll go to hell if you’re gay. So far, you’ve given me nothing except more conjecture and your own, subjective, personal observations.
And, again, we see the use of this subjective term ‘healthy’: another favourite term of the ex-gay and anti-gay lobbies. What do you mean by healthy? Do you mean people are physically in quite a lot of risk from being single? Do you mean that they might be risking their mental health? They might go insane? Do you have any concrete evidence to back this up?
However, if you are So Experienced and Wise™ that you don’t need Kort’s advice, great!
Acutally, I make no claims to be more experienced or more wise than anybody else. On the contrary, I’m as confused about matters of life and love as everybody else. I can only speak from my own, limited experiences. However, people like Kort et al aren’t any wiser or experienced than anyone else and I have little patience for those who claim to be.
I stand by my calim that Kort is cynically exploiting shallow, gay stereotypes. I mean, the book itself has a picture of a confident, attractive gay male (I’m assuming this is Kort himself) smilling warmly: he seems happy, successfuly, healthy. Somehow, I doubt the majority of people actually purchasing the book look like that, although they probably aspire to it. It targets people who, for whatever reasons, don’t have the strength of convictions to be themselves and are looking for easy answers to difficult questions and seems to fill their heads with conformist ideas about what is ‘healthy’ and ‘stable’.
And the stereotypes that the book exploits – that gay men are promiscuous, shallow and childish – are also pretty cheap and nasty. For anyone who has spent anytime in straight clubs, you’ll quickly discover that gay males do not have monopoly on such behaviour, far from it. It’s an easy criticism to make not because it is necesarily true or limited to gay males only, but because of the popular perceptions pushed by the media and groups like Exodus. However, the popular perception is not necesarily the correct perception and certainly not my perception.
Actually, I don’t think the book “exploits gay stereotypes” at all. It seems to me to be a pretty standard self-help book, really, just reworked to cater to gays. With the exception of the chapter on coming out, those ten points are more or less what you could expect to find in a straight-oriented self-help title, ESPECIALLY the part about “Delayed Adolescence”
Well, I actually read this book a few months ago. Having spent many years immersed in ‘ex-gay’ literature and ideologies, it has been refreshing to read a number of books from alternative points of view over the past year, and this was one that caught my eye.
As one who was led to believe (by ex-gay proponents) that all gay relationships are doomed to failure, and that gay sexuality is nothing more than addictive promiscuous behaviour; this book was just one more nail in the anti-gay and ex-gay coffins.
Yes, it is fairly typical ‘self-help’ fodder, but at least the author offers his advice gained from his experience counselling gay couples, so it is somewhat more relevant to gay males than the average newspaper ‘self-help’ columns. The author states himself that “You may not agree with every word I say…..however, you’re sure to recognize many of the challenges …”
The material was generally helpful, and the author is obviously a proponent and supporter of the type of committed, longterm, successful gay relationships that many genuinely seek.
The only chapter that I had doubts about was the one on sexual addictions. Much of the advice seemed pretty commonsense, though some of the psycological explanations came across as a little too much in the nature of the pseudo-scentific psycho-babble used by ex-gay theorists – and you’ve guessed that I’m more than a little sceptical of that now.
“As one who was led to believe (by ex-gay proponents) that all gay relationships are doomed to failure, and that gay sexuality is nothing more than addictive promiscuous behaviour”
Whoa James! That’s a bit of a leap. I haven’t really read those kinds of statements in any ex-gay literature, but then I haven’t read that much. Martin Hallett (of True Freedom Trust UK) has actually made a point of saying that those are just lies.
For goodness sake, people can be happy and fulfilled as mass-murderers if they want. There’s not much causal relationship between apparent happiness/fulfilment and whether something is “right”.
You do seem to have an aversion to psychological explanations for things though. I hope you’re just as skeptical about things like “internalised homophobia”.
“As one who was led to believe (by ex-gay proponents) that all gay relationships are doomed to failure, and that gay sexuality is nothing more than addictive promiscuous behaviour”
Whoa James! That’s a bit of a leap. I haven’t really read those kinds of statements in any ex-gay literature, but then I haven’t read that much.
Actually, Trevise, I have read a whole, whole lot of ex-gay literature (which of course is mostly geared to men, as usual) and read and heard a lot of testimonies from “ex-gays” and most have this theme in common. You almost never, ever hear about any ex-gay person having a normal or healthy relationship with the same sex. And while ex-gays will say, “That’s because they don’t exist” many of us know that is a total falsehood.
As an example, I just did a search on google for “ex-gay testimony” and the first link I clicked on was a press-release on Exodus about ex-gay Christine Sneeringer. Here’s a quick quote:
As a child, Sneeringer saw the women around her being treated as objects, she said. Many lesbians are just trying to protect themselves from men. “To be feminine was to be weak.”
Her first lesbian relationship came when she was 15. In her early 20s, she was involved with a married woman, she said. “But God came after me even though I was a lesbian and a home wrecker.” Today, she has “developed healthy same-sex friendships.”
So her big relationship was as a lesbian home wrecker. And clearly she is saying that her lesbian relationships were not healthy.
Here’s another quote from a testimony on the web by Bernard Coleman:
“I will never forget the night of January 20, 1983. Lights in the bar were dim, like the faces surrounding me. I loathed looking into those faces because they mirrored my own. Those sad, lonely faces with sighing eyes searched the bar that night just as I did, longing for someone to fill their emptiness.
I turned from their dismal stares and sipped my vodka. The next day, Saturday, marked my 36th birthday, yet I felt no joy-only deep depression. I wanted the alcohol to wash away the pain of a homosexual relationship now decaying into emotional trauma.”
Another testimony from that same site says:
“Even as a married man, I couldn’t stop seducing other women. I even got involved in homosexual activities in bookstores, just for the sexual release as I watched dirty movies.” – as an aside, it’s also a perfect example of Exodus trying to show a clearly non-gay man (the entire story is all about sexual addiction mostly with women) who is now “ex-gay.”
I have personally seen testimonies on the 700 club and other christian programming by ex-gays who paint the “gay lifestyle” as a terrible life filled with alcohol and promiscuity and a lot of sadness and lonliness.
In addition to all the other ex-gay work I’ve personally done, I’ve also been through Andy Comisky’s “Living Waters” program (and can attest to this same sentiment being a part of that program). His testimony starts out:
“After being gang-raped, beaten up…and hit with several bouts of VD, I decided to reevaluate my “liberating” move and give my life to Christ.”
Anyway, just a few examples. From my experience, and from things I’ve read, I’d have to agree with James.
Annika, I’m sure you’d agree that it doesn’t take much critical reasoning to realise that of course these would be the testimonies to which Exodus and other ministries would give the limelight. They’re dramatic. It certainly doesn’t mean that other people might have less dramatic testimonies.
James’ leap, which I was questioning, was to believe that this shows that all gay relationships are doomed to failure, etc.
You show your own tarbrushing when you say, “And while ex-gays will say, “That’s because they don’t exist” many of us know that is a total falsehood.”
(Leaving aside the value-loaded statement of what makes a relationship “normal”), which ex-gays will say that? You should at least use a qualifier like “most” or “some”.
While I wouldn’t label myself as “ex-gay”, I’ve exposed myself to some of their literature, and I’ve never arrived at the conclusion you guys have. Your quotes above demonstrate that a lot of people have had very negative experiences of same-sex romantic/sexual relationships, but to jump from there to the conclusion that that’s how it always is, I’d have to have been living in a cave.
For completeness (sorry to be splitting hairs), let me quote the last part of the original statement from Jason.
“and that gay sexuality is nothing more than addictive promiscuous behaviour”
Jason, I respect you greatly for the discussion we had about biology and psychology, but I still don’t see how a questioning, critical thinker like yourself could come to this conclusion.
I’ve read numerous articles from Exodus, as well a couple of books by “names of notoriety” on this site, and I can’t think of one that reduces the complexities of human sexuality and perceived/experienced orientation to such a singular concept. There seem to be claimed statistics showing markedly low rates of fidelity in same-sex relationships, but the fact that these statistics show anything other than 100% can only be a clear indication that there are exceptions to the rule.
Just as an aside, I once read an article from a psychologist who mentioned a same-sex relationship that had a “healing” effect on one young man (though he didn’t give an unqualified recommendation for the solution to others!). The guy apparently got into a sexual relationship with an older man who became like a father figure to him. The relationship gradually became less and less sexual and then the younger man began pursuing women. Some may be tempted to say, “he was obviously never gay”, but I’m not so sure.
I remember also seeing a European film where two young men, friends from college or something, were reunited. One asked the other whether he still had a boyfriend (or something along those lines) and he replied laughing, “Of course not – I’ve grown out of that”. I was surprised, because that tends to grate with the “once gay always gay” message we get in the West, yet we often look upon Europe (and especially European cinema) as more liberally-minded in sexual matters.
Ah trevize that comment was by james not me.
I don’t see much of the once gay always gay here. People can be gay curious, bisexual or a mostly straight guy having opportune gay sex. Young people experiment with sex both gay and straight and they may also experiment with relationships. The gay high school student that falls for the straight guy that just wants sex is not a rare situation nor is the college lesbian who goes off and marries a husband.
When I was younger and into a gay youth group every so often someone who is questioning would come in and after a while decide that they are not gay and leave. People in this country do leave each other for both same sex and opposite sex attractions and some people claim that their orientation changed over time. It seems rather rare that someone just wakes up a different sexual orientation.
What is different is that most people who do so do not try to change their underlying attractions. It is one thing to leave someone because the relationship soured and then you found the opposite sex person of your dreams. It is quite another to expect a relationship to change someone’s orientation or to expect to grow out of it. Both of which might not happen.
Although that was an interesting take on that theory. Normally the goal would have been to keep the relationship non-sexual and usually results with the two falling in love (if they are gay) or the gay one writing ten volumes about unrequited love for the straight partner. Not to mention the theories involving behaviorism which would make having the sex a very risky proposition for “Healing”.
Trevise and Annika, thanks for your comments.
Trevise, you picked up on some of my points:
“As one who was led to believe (by ex-gay proponents) that all gay relationships are doomed to failure, and that gay sexuality is nothing more than addictive promiscuous behaviour”
Whoa James! That’s a bit of a leap. I haven’t really read those kinds of statements in any ex-gay literature, but then I haven’t read that much. Martin Hallett (of True Freedom Trust UK) has actually made a point of saying that those are just lies.
I rustled through my bookshelf and found the following:
From Nicolosi: …do not expect a monogamous homosexual relationship…
From Worthen: …Jay knew that in pursuing homosexual relationships, he’d never find that one special person who would form a lifetime commitment.
From Moberley: …homosexual relationships [are] inherently self-limiting. There is no basis for permanence in the structure of the homosexual condition.
From ‘Crossover Ministries’ whose main outreach: involves helping individuals who desire to come out of various forms of sexually addictive behavior such as homosexuality…
I admit that many of the ‘ex-gay’ proponents are more cautious and do not make such sweeping claims. Some of the things they have to say are of value, and I could not condemn any of these types of book that I have read as being worthless. Nearly all have some insights on the homosexual psyche that ring true. As human beings we are all prone to failings, and homosexuals can make just as many bad choices in life as heterosexuals.
My cynicism follows from the claims made by many of the more extreme ‘ex-gay’ proponents that following their schemes will lead to development of permanent heterosexual feelings in a significant number of those following their courses. While I do not deny that some gay people do change, I think that Spitzer’s research and subsequent comments (amongst other things) have made it clear that this is indeed ‘extremely rare’. I doubt that so many folk would persist in these courses if they really knew of the ultra-slim chances of ‘change’. I am also aware of those who have sadly blighted their and other people’s lives by entering into strained ‘heterosexual’ marriages in a vain attempt to prove their healing.
The ministry that you mentioned is not typical of many of the American ‘ex-gay’ proponents. Indeed, over the years this ministry has considerably toned down the likelihood of change to heterosexuality. They support those who wish to remain celibate; a course that I consider a valid option. However, I personally do not consider that it should be the only option considered valid.
It has been said that while while there remain folk who hate themselves for being gay, there will be takers for ‘ex-gay’ ministries. Yet these folk might make greater strides forward by overcoming the hatred of their gay feelings, than by struggling to be something that they are not and most likely never will be.
Jason,
Sorry! I had the wrong name in my head! Good points there, but I still think there’s a lot of pressure on kids in our society to decide between gay or straight. I’ve never seen a story like the one I mentioned in a popular movie or TV show here. The testimony always seems to be “I always knew deep inside that I was gay, I just tried to deny it.” Maybe it’s just me, but I see orientation almost universally painted as a core, unchangeable “setting” that can be discovered, but is ultimately unalterable, whether by ourselves or by time.
“It is one thing to leave someone because the relationship soured and then you found the opposite sex person of your dreams. It is quite another to expect a relationship to change someone’s orientation or to expect to grow out of it.”
I think you’re talking about someone who is attracted pretty evenly to both sexes here aren’t you? Otherwise, I think you’d be quite sensible to infer that the relationship effected this transformation?? At the very least it shows a large role for socio-psychological factors in “orientation”.
James,
“It has been said that while while there remain folk who hate themselves for being gay, there will be takers for ‘ex-gay’ ministries.”
This saying makes the assumption that all people who look into ex-gay ministries hate themselves. I disagree. The usual problem is the confusion of a property or attribute with an identity. (Incidentally your use of the noun forms “homosexuals” and “heterosexuals” further encourages this). If I have an attribute (eg. same-sex attractions, nail-biting habit, curly hair, an explosive violent temper) which I believe requires moderation and/or healing, it does not logically follow that I hate myself.
However I do agree that a lot of people who enter into these ministries want to change because they hate themselves. Starting from such a place of shame is probably the worst thing they could do. Sometimes I think they’re almost better off starting from the pro-gay position (that’s what I did), if only to get it through their heads/hearts that God loves them anyway. Then they can soberly decide whether they want to sacrifice something.
Nah homosexuality itself is rather a new topic for t.v. (Heck remember the controversy of Ellen coming out of the closet or the lack of controversy of Deep Space Nine’s “lesbian” kiss). So at the moment don’t expect much seriousness or depth in a 15-min story. T.V. is probably the most censored media there is. A good example would be race. As an African American I used to hate the Disney movies/shows I saw on t.v. as a kid in the 80ies. It was mostly stuff left over from the 50ies and 60ies and not a single black person to be found. It was as if we did not exist before then or were inappropriate for family viewing boy have they changed.
As for movies mostly the indie movies and books that explore homosexuality and some of them question the nature of attraction. I remember reading a mystery novel about where the main character was the former lover of the person who hired him. The guy who hired him had in the years since married and was being black mailed about his former life. I also remember reading an very old and interesting book about the myth and mysteries of same sex love written by Christine Downings about ten years ago. A lesbian who on the road toward love of woman wound up having relations with two gay men and took full part in the sexual revolution of the 70ies and talks about her experiences of the AIDS crises of the 80ies. Although she doesn’t go into wither attractions can change she doesn’t see gay as ruling out sexual relations and she explores sexual relations from a psychological angle and a Greek mythological one as well as a personal one.
As for that comment no I was not talking about someone who is bisexual. I was talking about someone that perhaps time changed the nature of the attraction or perhaps it was a mostly gay man who fell in love with the odd woman he found attractive. I was stating that starting a relationship with the expectation that it will change orientation is probably a bad idea and most likely will not work. Lots of gay men have both deep friendships and relationships with men. It doesn’t seem to change their orientation. You don’t hear of a man leaving another man for a woman quite as often as a man leaving another man for a man. Also many of the ex-ex gays have tried that plan and failed. The usual result being falling in love with the person that was supposed to cure them.
Some people do experiment with same sex relationships when they are younger and it is possible for a straight person to be in love with someone of the same gender in the way that a gay person can be in love with the opposite gender (i.e. really like being around the person but really not interested in sex). Some people do experiment with same sex activities when they are younger but then go on to be heterosexual. They just do not find people of the same sex desirable enough to want a relationship or they find the attraction so minor as to be easily ignored.
Jason,
“Lots of gay men have both deep friendships and relationships with men.”
Perhaps. I can only say that it hasn’t been my experience, nor any gay guys I’ve got to know. I think this is true of many straight guys too.
“It doesn’t seem to change their orientation … Also many of the ex-ex gays have tried that plan and failed. The usual result being falling in love with the person that was supposed to cure them.”
Using words like “plan” makes it sound like this is all some celebrity conversion diet from a magazine. Anyway, yes, I’ve heard that this happens – I think some counsellors often warn eachother about it. I’ve also heard it recommended that these one-on-one friendships may not be the best idea anyway. It may have resulted in something in that particular case because of whatever issues that guy had.
“Lots of gay men have both deep friendships and relationships with men.”
Sorry, I think I misunderstood what you were saying here. In my reply I was referring to friendships outside of the context of a sexual/romantic dependency. Of course being in a sexual relationship with someone is most likely to condition you to respond physically to them, not the reverse, so it’s unlikely to change your physical attractions, though it may have an effect on some emotional things.
Trevize:
“Just as an aside, I once read an article from a psychologist who mentioned a same-sex relationship that had a “healing” effect on one young man (though he didn’t give an unqualified recommendation for the solution to others!). The guy apparently got into a sexual relationship with an older man who became like a father figure to him. The relationship gradually became less and less sexual and then the younger man began pursuing women. Some may be tempted to say, “he was obviously never gay”, but I’m not so sure.”
I’m interesting in reading that article. Where can I find it?
From my perception, that’s a pederast type of relationship. They’re common throughout quite a few cultures, including ancient greece. Young boys with mentors that grow up and get married after they reach of age. BTW I suggest you read upon pederastry to clear your perception on this peculiar scenario.
Trevize:
“I remember also seeing a European film where two young men, friends from college or something, were reunited. One asked the other whether he still had a boyfriend (or something along those lines) and he replied laughing, “Of course not – I’ve grown out of that”. I was surprised, because that tends to grate with the “once gay always gay” message we get in the West, yet we often look upon Europe (and especially European cinema) as more liberally-minded in sexual matters.”
Yes, Europe is indeed more sexuality “open” compared to North-America, which gives it a more tolerable environment for ‘bisexual’ guys, that have sex with guys, yet would only form romantic relationships with women, to be completely open about their sexuality in public. The same type of group exists here although they’re closeted, like the character Nino in Mambo Italiano for example. Personally, I detest most of them for their romantic exclusion of the same-sex. They tend to see guys as nothing more than a juicy piece of meat.
Xeno (foreign),
Yes, I am familiar with Ancient Greece and pederasty. My point was that the young man was apparently more interested in man-man sex at the start (in other words, he would probably have concluded that he was gay), and then changed while in that relationship. I can’t honestly remember where I read this account, but I’m pretty sure that psychologist wasn’t making it up. His inference was that the love and affection the younger man received from the older one had a “healing” effect on some emotional wounds he had, which were driving him to pursue men. The older man identified as gay too.
I don’t know if this is truly equivalent to a pederastic relationship, where the older participant may frequently be using the younger for physical pleasure or status (besides teaching him some Plato and Socrates). Also, I don’t think the guy was an adolescent.