David Morrison, in Sed Contra: And They Wonder Why Parents Homeschool Their Kids, says:
Parent’s are rightly protective of their kids and the ideas and concepts to which their children are exposed. General opposition to same sex marriage will crystalize into voting against it if it becomes clear that its being forced on their kids in the schools.
(David’s a sweet guy, by the way. I had the pleasure of a couple hours of talking and walking with him a few weeks back. He is not ex-gay, but rather pro-chastity.)
Tom Cole, director of Living Hope Ministries in Arlington Texas, noted in a recent newsletter:
We are facing an almost overwhelming influx of gay friendly messages from our culture. From the political side we are seeing gay marriage and gay rights making inroads in nearly every state. On television we are seeing positive gay characters on nearly every show. There are even all-gay television shows promoting homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle. As I talk to youth, even Christian youth, I am finding a tolerance toward homosexuality.
(I haven’t gotten to meet Tom, but I’ve heard glowing reports of him as a warm, principled guy who happens to feel called to ex-gay ministry.)
In Rhea County Tennessee, county commissioners quickly rescinded their implausible moves toward banning gays. For the Associated Press, Bill Poovey reports:
But 12-year-old Caitlin Kinney, attending the meeting with her mother, said she supported the commissioners’ initial vote.
“I think they should go further, try to see if they can ban them,” she said. “It’s not a Christian thing.”
And Exodus spokesman Randy Thomas gently chides the folks of Rhea County:
Of course a land owner should be able to say who they will rent to, but for a government to declare even a small portion, a county size portion of land, unavailable to anyone seeking residence is counter to what a free society means.
The days of running people out of town because of sin are over. If it were equally applied we’d all be homeless and alone.
(Randy’s another good guy I hope to meet some day.)
So, what options remain for parents who are more in tune with PFOX and James Dobson than PFLAG and the Rev. Gene Robinson? Homeschooling out of anger about “forced” exposure to folks who are different? Surprise or dismay at finding that “even Christian youth” express tolerance of their gay peers? Wistful glances backward to a time when renting to or living near folks with different beliefs could be avoided?
How about stuff like this:
“Kids, we live in a world that includes a lot of different people.
“You’re going to end up knowing about and befriending kids whose lives are different from ours. Some of them will have grown up in faraway places, speaking other languages. Head coverings and clothing might be different for those who are Amish, Muslim, or Jewish. Features, shapes, skin colors, and ability levels will vary, too. And many of your friends will have just one parent, or divorced parents, or other arrangements.
“We don’t agree with everything that other people say or do (or don’t do), nor does Jesus. But that doesn’t stop Jesus from acknowledging that outcasts and sinners exist. Nor does it stop Jesus from listening to them and getting to know them for who they are, rather than who the outcasts’ enemies say they are.
“Jesus loved his neighbors. And we pray that you will learn to do the same.”
What you suggest is so simple, yet it would cause a revolution. That there isn’t a clear leader in the Christian community who is preaching this to the world, is extraordinary. Recently I talked to a few Christians here in Portland, Oregon who had gathered to protest same-sex marriage. I asked one of them the question, ‘how do you think your protest against marriage equality, is impacting how gay men and lesbians see your faith?’ One young woman blinked a couple of times, and then said “I don’t know, I never really thought about that…”
kd
The challenge is for all of us to practice and model the simple stuff. It doesn’t always end up being so simple.
Profound differences in perception and belief exist within my immediate family. A few years back, when my kids raised the topic, I did a visual exercise for them.
“Here are two stacks of books. The authors of all of them have a lot in common: They’re Christians. Their faith is extremely important to them. They love God, and they all hold the Bible up as something precious, and they’ve studied it a lot and prayed for guidance.
“Even though they studied the same Bible and prayed to the same God, they came to different conclusions about what it means. One stack of books talks about being gay as something ordinary and natural in God’s eyes, the other stack talks about God wanting folks not to be gay even if they have gay feelings.”
I think that sort of lesson goes hand-in-hand with so many others. Christian, Muslim, Hindi, agnostic, atheist and other neighbors ought to be able to teach their kids that the neighbors need not be feared or marginalized because of the differences.
When Muslim parents admit to their kids that Christians exist — along with customs, dress, family structures, rituals, and values that can be antithetical to their Muslim traditions — it isn’t necessary for them to identify Christianity as a palatable option to Islam. It’s no surprise that people of faith often want their kids to grow up in that faith, to understand its richness and beauty, and to integrate it into their own lives as adults.
The model is used often with kids in our pluralistic society:
Kids, different traditions, choices, and families are out there.
Some of them contradict the beliefs and values that matter a lot to us.
But, the folks who differ will sometimes include our neighbors, friends, school- and work-mates, as well as family members.
Even though we disagree, we’re still going to be good neighbors, friends, and family to each other.
In Christian biblical terms, being “in the world, but not of the world” suggests to me the wisdom of knowing one’s neighbors and teaching kids to value their independence and think critically.
Freddy wears a yarmulke. Johnny doesn’t celebrate his birthday (his family are Jehovah’s Witnesses). Angie’s parents will choose her husband some day. Steffy has two moms. Kids, none of those traditions fit the way we live, and it will mean a lot to us as parents if your chosen traditions are more like ours than any of theirs.
But, here’s the important thing: None of those traditions poses a threat to our family. As parents, we are your foundation and your protectors. We will set the traditions you follow for now, and one day you will choose your own. In the meantime, we will continue being friends and neighbors to Freddy, Johnny, Angie, Steffy and their families. We will also cherish our friends at church (or wherever) whose traditions are just like ours.
This is, I think, the area the most undermines the “pro-family” movement and those who believe in the religions that form its basis – if your children must be protected from even hearing or seeing those with whom you disagree, clearly you have doubts about the strength of your moral and religious teachings. The whole point of a religios/moral belief system is that it must withstand arguments against it.
Also, the implication of statements like:
“We are facing an almost overwhelming influx of gay friendly messages from our culture. From the political side we are seeing gay marriage and gay rights making inroads in nearly every state. On television we are seeing positive gay characters on nearly every show. There are even all-gay television shows promoting homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle. As I talk to youth, even Christian youth, I am finding a tolerance toward homosexuality.”
is that the positive images are somehow lies – that the media is in a conspiracy to “sell” homosexuality to America – an argument that has been made by more than one anti-gay leader. What they don’t or won’t accept is that perhaps these positive images are real, and even the “Christian” youth are able to see the humanity of gay people.
Another not-so-thinly-veiled implication is that being openly gay is detestable, and any tiny references to it are unsuitable for children.
And, sometimes it seems to me that resistance is not just to glbt folks themselves but to faith which is gay-affirming.
It makes the most sense to me for kids to learn that men and women worship separately in Freddy’s tradition, Johnny’s family sometimes drops everything on short notice to attend a distant religious conference, some folks at Suzie’s church speak in tongues, and Steffy’s family’s house of worship celebrates same-sex unions.
Different? Sure.
Unique? Often.
Scary? Nope!
Questions:
Should every child be encouraged to explore his/her sexual orientation?
Should public schools encourage kids to explore their sexuality?
Do you beleive, as GLSEN teaches, that you can’t know for sure until you’ve tried it?
And yes. Jesus had much compassion for the leper, whom he healed, and for the prostitute, of whom he required repentance.
Marty,
Please specify where GLSEN teaches that “you can’t know for sure until you’ve tried it.” A link to one of their web pages, or a news article where they are directly quoted, would substantiate your claim.
I don’t think children should be encouraged to act out sexually with other children, any more than adults should be. Nor should their questions about sexuality be silently dismissed, punished, or responded to with one-sided ideology. Their questions should be encouraged and answered with the sort of balance and tolerance that is presently missing from Exodus leadership, imo.
Marty,
IMHO, children should be told the truth – there are straight people, there are gay people, and there are people in between. As kids enter puberty, they should be encouraged to be honest about their emotions, and if they are ready for dating, should explore same-sex attractions, but certainly not sex.
I would never advocate, and have never heard of GLSEN advocating, that “you can’t know for sure until you try.” Nor do I advocate early sexual activity for kids (I was 17 when I lost my virginity, and I think that was still too young).
I believe the biggest disservice we do to gay teenagers is prevent them from being teenagers and experiencing all the highs and lows of learning how to date and be in relationships. After spending our teen years hiding our sexuality, we too often end up living out our adolescences in inappropriate ways, while in our 20s and 30s.
More importantly, the most beneficial thing GLSEN does is teach that different does not equal bad, and from what I understand, GSAs are NOT about sex – they are about being different.
Marty, Part of me is against answering this but
her is the take of a gay man.
Ah. No I don’t think that children should be exploring their “Sexual Orientation” but sex and sexual attraction is a part of life and sooner or latter you are going to have to deal with it. Like most people in this country I believe in age appropriate sex education. I.e. the 4th grader should not know what the words sex, homosexual or heterosexual mean but I think a high school senior should know what sex is before he and his girlfriend or he and his closest male friend accidentally discovers it for themselves. Even if the two are heterosexual and save themselves until marriage there is some useful information to be had. You know things such as it are called menstruation and not “the curse”.
I don’t think any public school encourages kids to explore their sexuality. That is going to happen naturally. What has happened is a lot of guilt has been removed from sexuality and the world today is different from the world fifty or one hundred years ago. It is kinda hard to expect that everyone will be a chase heterosexual that saves themselves until marriage in a world of unchaperoned dating, single living, late marriage (age 25 for first marriage), contraceptives, and heath care able to treat many std. HIV might be today’s scariest std, but there was a time when the list of possible killer stds was much longer and there were no treatments. We also know today that there are people who are mostly attracted to people of the same sex and that this attraction is probably just a variation in nature. Should someone live a life of guilt because try as they might they do not find anyone of the opposite gender attractive? Should some feel guilt because they find someone of the opposite gender attractive or should they feel guilt if find someone somone of the same attractive?
My mother grew up in a world that thought asthma was largely psychological. It was felt that if all possible sources of allergens were removed then it must be psychological not physiological. Teachers of the time would scold my grandmother for giving in to her asthma. Well today we know that it is impossible to remove all possible sources of allergens. Shaming the parent of an asthmatic is not going to solve the problem.
My grandma lived in a world that tried to force her to be right handed. Today we know that being left handed is not a sign of sin and we know enough is nothing to feel guilty about and is a part of nature at the rate things are going sexual orientation is about to enter the same category.
And no. I don’t believe that you can know for sure until you try. Orientation is about attraction. It is about what do you find attractive in people not what do you find attractive in bed. Attraction is a bit like gravity. Kinda hard to defy it. People who are curios may try out sex with people of either gender, but when the experimentation ends you are still left with the question of what do you find attractive in a mate.
Page 6 of this lovely piece of propaganda
https://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Homophobia%20101.pdf
Ah Marty,
The survey is clearly labeled to be given to adults and is designed to teach heterosexuals what it is like to be a homosexual who has been asked those questions.Thoose questions are the ones that many young people get asked when they come out to their parents. In other words do you really think that your heterosexuality is just a phase? If the answer is no then why should you think someone else’s homosexuality should be something they might grow out of.
Point taken and i agree that the statement has been taken out of a particular context (whether accurate is another discussion) by CWA etc.
But to your question? No, i know for a fact that my heterosexuality could easily have been steered in the other direction, and as an adaptable human being, i would have responded accordingly.
There are many people from my past who would not have been at all suprised if i had become gay, and there may still be a few who are suprised that i did not.
If events had been just a little bit different, or if i had come of age in the 90’s instead of the 80’s, i very easily could have been gay. Almost did anyway.
At that age, satisfying the demands of social acceptance and immense sexual pressure have as much to do with it as anything.
The number one reason why Christian parents homeschool is the physical safety of their children. The fact that Christian youth are more tolerant of their gay peers proves that they actually “get it” from a Christian perspective. Namely, violence is wrong. Since gay students are more likely to be the victims rather than perpetrators of violence the real threat to their children lies elsewhere. Antigay parents should not be dismayed at their children’s behavior but rather be proud of their Christian witness.
Hey Marty…
Thanks for opening up a bit. Conversation is so much more viable when we get to know each other as people, and I feel like I have a better window into where you’re coming from now.
Apparently, you and I are alike in having some personal sense of some fluidity or flexibility related to orientation.
I’ll try to talk more about this later.
Marty, here is an interesting but slightly dated article that sorta sums up my view on the fluidity of sexuality.
https://www.angelfire.com/nc/yakkow/asparagus.html
He has a couple of other interesting bits on his web page but that one sort sums up my views. I also take the view that it is pretty rare for someone to do a 180 and totally and completely change their sexuality. More often than not when someone claims to have changed their sexuality, they were a. bisexual or b. still same sex attracted but not having sex with anyone. In other words behavior changes not attraction.
Here also is a link to a page on the same web site that shows the sorts of religious and personal dilemmas homosexuals face.
https://www.angelfire.com/nc/yakkow/mystory2.html
I don’t take the view that someone can easily become gay. People tend to experiment when they are younger because they are just discovering who they are. Sexuality is among many other things people experiment with at that point in life. Some people may never have a same sex involvement when they are younger. They simple have no attraction to the same sex.
Other people may have a same sex involvement or two and never have one again. They simply are not attracted enough to the same gender to want another or are so much more attracted to the opposite gender that they do not have a burning desire to try it again. The proverbial college lesbian who goes off and marries may be in this group.
Still others may have little to no attraction to the opposite sex and plenty of attraction to the same. They may try opposite sex relationships, but the attraction the same sex is still there and it can make for quite an unhappy relationship if one party does not find the other attractive.
I take the view that young people need the time and the space to explore themselves and they need to do it in as healthy way as possible. GLSEN do that by creating an enviroment where young people can find out that they are not alone. I think the one thing I will always remember from the 90ies was a teenager who fell down the stairs. There he was lying down at the bottom of the stairs too injured to get up, first begging the staff of the gay youth group not to call his dad then balling up and crying because they did. I think there is something wrong in a world that values heterosexuality so highly that a person is willing to lie at the bottom of a stair way injured than meet his dad.
Sorry, i just dont buy into the psychosexual labeling of everyone. Most guys i know, especially teenagers, would mate with a hole bored into a tree, given enough time alone. Some may even come to prefer it, with enough practice.
Becoming a “sexual” person is about opportunity, acceptance, and comfort levels. Preferences can and do change, as we change inside, and as the world changes around us.
Quoted: “I think there is something wrong in a world that values heterosexuality so highly that a person is willing to lie at the bottom of a stair way injured than meet his dad.”
Redirected::
I think theres obviously something wrong when a person is so ashamed of his behavior that he is willing to lie at the bottom of the stairs injured.
But blaming 97% of the population instead of the kid on the floor is a bit of a leap, don’t you think?
Marty,
I agree with you that the psychosexual labeling is misleading. Sexuality is something that does not neatly fit into a box but unfortunately you need words to describe a situation. I mean there are men who wear drag but prefer to date women and there are people who change gender and date people of the sex that they changed into. I have known men that would probably have sex with anything that stayed still long enough and I have know guys that found men attractive but did not want to have sex with them. I have even known guys that claim they only found their wife attractive! Not simple, straight forward or clear at all. Also given the views you have expressed on this blog, would you be surprised if one of your children would prefer anything expect letting you know that they might be questioning. No matter how much they fight it teenagers do care what their parents thinks of them. If they think their parents hate homosexual or think homosexual are not an ideal situation then they would prefer to hide the fact that they are having same sex attractions to telling their parents.
In fact I wish the word homosexual didn’t contain the word sex. It is misleading. Homosexuality like heterosexuality is about sexual attraction. I mean how many people wish to date, have sex, or enter into a long-term relationship with people they do not find attractive? Sports Illustrated has yet to publish the unattractive but otherwise perfectly acceptable people of the year issue. I used to work at a place that was all male. Whenever an attractive woman would come through boy you should have seen the reaction on the guys. Work stopped Mouths gapped open, Eyes follow.
I never had that sort of reaction to any woman. I have never been so attracted to a woman as to find it distracting. With guys it is heart skip a beat, wow he is hot, argh I don’t want him to know I find him attractive, down boy down. Also I was having homosexual attractions (age 13 in grade school) long before I ever had any chance to act on them (age 18 in college). I have known people that have waited even longer than that. Those feelings didn’t go away or decrease because I was not having sex with guys nor did I have much of any attraction to girls. I found the odd girl attractive, but frankly comparing my attraction to woman to my attraction to guys is like comparing a choir bell with the bells of church.
I have yet to have a heteroerotic dream or fantasy and I often wonder what is it heterosexual guys see in woman. I find the thought of heterosexual sex slightly repulsive. I did have a girlfriend in high school but I didn’t want to do anything more than hold hands or hug. I never thought of her in a sexual way. I never wanted to kiss her. It was more like being really good friends who go on the prom together than lovers.
I don’t think acceptance has anything to do with it. My family does not accept homosexuals. I didn’t know any gays at the time and my college did not have any sort of GLSEN. I didn’t know about gay youth groups and when I did learn I was too scared to go. I wasn’t a fag. I had all these images of gay men being raging jealous effeminate queens. I just had this prejudiced image of some guy in flamboyant wear slashing my tires cause I asked his boyfriend for directions. I couldn’t go there. Instead of going to a gay youth group and finding support/information and a healthy way to work through that question. I went to a bathhouse.
Note I went to a gay bathhouse, not a brothel or straight strip club to get a lap dance nor was I interested enough in the woman at the coed school to want to date one. I wasn’t uncomfortable with them just uninterested in them. However, I sure had the devil of a time trying not to act interested in some of the guys and I had been in plenty of situations where the only thing that saved my virginity was disinterest on the part of the other guy. If you want to see discomfort try sitting in assigned seats next to a straight guy you find really hot or fearing taking off your cloths around guys in the locker room.
Lucky I didn’t get a STD from the visit. About the only thing I learned was what the heck two guys do in bed and that I like some but not all forms gay sex. Before that point I wasn’t that sure what guys did together all I knew is I was attracted to guys in a sexual way.
Going to a bathhouse didn’t answer my question as to if I was gay. I mean I could just have liked the sex but have been just as happy to be married to a woman and never have gay sex again. The sex wasn’t so good as to make me think that monogamy was impossible and I felt iky afterwards. It also has been one of my few regrets that my first experince was not romantic. It could have just been a one-deal event. It It took some good old-fashioned soul searching and thinking to answer that question.
It’s become pretty clear, starting with the Kinsey research (as maligned as it may currently be) through the modern era, that human sexuality does not fall into a binomial distribution – hetero and homo. Bisexuality is a major component, not only of human sexuality, but all simian sexuality. “Experimentation” with one’s own gender is a common experience for people who consider themselves totally straight, and some psychologists believe that it is part of the “normal” development of heterosexuality (which is why some psychologists also argue homosexuality is a developmental disorder; in their view gay people have not successfully completed adolescence – a view I don’t support).
I am not one of those people who believe we are all fundamentally bisexual, and “choose” one side or the other. I do believe that functionally, in a purely physical sense, we all have some level of bisexuality – too many gay people have been able to function in heterosexual relationships, especially when they are young, for me to argue against that point. But true bisexuality, being able to emotionally, romantically and sexually relate to both genders, I believe is pretty rare. After all, nearly all cases of marital infidelity are with opposite sex partners.
So even if kids “experiment” in their youth (and I don’t advocate sexual activity at young ages), I don’t believe that can fundamentally change their sexuality. We are hard-wired for who we are to love and minor physical pleasure is not going to change that.
Hard wired huh?
See, this is what i resent, the implication that there is something “fundamental” about sexual attraction.
Fundamentally, Human beings are heterosexually designed.
True hermaphrodites are an exeption, but are you arguing some sort of psychcological hermaphrodism?
Thanks for the discussion.
Yes, Marty, I do believe that homosexuality is a brain-centered physical difference that is akin to genital hermaphrodism (sic?). We are all the products of one man and one woman – we all have male and female inherent in us. I simply believe gay men and lesbians are more of a mixture of male and female then straight people.
After all, whenever a physical difference between gay and straight people is found, it is always toward the other gender. For instance, gay men have, on average, more feminine hands than straight men. Lesbians, on average, have ear structures that are more similar to straight men than straight women. Even the ground-breaking study of brain structures of gay men found more feminine features in the gay brain than the straight brain.
None of this researches “proves” that homosexuality (or bisexuality, or heterosexuality) is biologically determined. But the fact that all the research points in the same direction is telling, and one of the ways science knows that it is on to something.
It is true that heterosexuality is required for the propagation of the species, and I thank God for the existance of heterosexuality (without it, we wouldn’t have any more gay people). But it is not true that every single member of the species has to be heterosexual for the species to survive. And since so many animals have evolved with homosexuality and bisexuality in their species, it must be that these “alternative” sexualities provide some benefit to the species.
Certainly I have long argued that having a few spare adults around, who are not consumed with the difficulties of child-rearing, would have helped early human civilizations – gay people would have been more readily available for food gathering and for serving as adoptive parents.
The problem with the idea that humans are fundamentally designed heterosexually designed is that gender and sexual attraction are controlled by the brain not the sex organs. Which leaves open the possibility that brain and sex organ might not agree. Also modern science thinks the brain is sexed before birth making changes in what one finds attractive difficult at best. A good example would be the case of John/Joan. In this case a normal male baby had his genitals badly damaged shortly after birth. The doctors, parents and psychologists determined that changing the boy into a girl would be the best surgical solution and would give him the best chance of living a “normal” life. They felt that it would be best to raise him as a normal girl rather than a boy who had no penis.
If gender and sexual attraction could have been easily directed any which way this would have been the perfect case. He of all people should have been a heterosexual female. He was raised a girl. Given girl toys to play with and encouraged to be a girl. However right from the start things went wrong. He wanted to play with boys, boy toys and do boy things. He felt different from the girls. He felt a great disagreement between what his family wanted him to be and what he was. At 14 he rebelled and no longer wanted to live as a girl despite the wishes of his family and the doctors. He underwent surgery to change his gender into male and claims that despite being approached both as girl and as a boy he never felt any attraction to men. Castration, hormones, social expectations and parental expectations could not change his gender, his sex role and his sexual orientation into what was desired. He is married to a woman and has adpoted children and otherwise comforms to being a normal heterosexual male.
As a gay Christian, I tire of other Christians who deny that I can be gay AND faithful to Christ’s teachings. I tire of media depictions of the Religious Right representing the whole of Christianity. I tire of the lack of coverage and exposure given to non-fundamentalist readings of the Bible.
And most of all I tire of the relentless, decidely non-Christian attitude of the religious right and fundamentalist Christians. I was a fundamentalist at one point in my life, but I never believed that I had the right to impose my religious beliefs on others through political processes. I tire of Christians who want an American theocracy and seek to seclude themselves from mainstream society until this happens. I have a hard time believing that Jesus would advocate the political exclusion of any human being.
Lastly, I tire of Christians who paint homosexuality as the sin du jour. The sin to end all sins or the mother of all sins. A close fundamentalist friend once told me, “I still think homosexuality is a sin, but I’m a sinner too. Your sin is no worse or different than mine.” She has never treated me any differently. This, I think, is a true Christian attitude.
God created mankind
God considered himself not to be a gay man or a lesbian woman.
Man was created as a very picture of God
The gay men and lesbian women are sexally (that is: bodily, geneticalled) focused on their same sexes, this is a truth in itself.
But that is not the r e a l problem. The real problem is, that every human being also has a Soul, also Produced and Manufactured by the Lord. That’s the very place where he puts the gay and lesbian world in a discredit: he refused to allow Love te be accessible inside your homosexual soul. So if you say: I feel gay and I choose for a gay lifestyle, you can bet it’s gonna bring you a lot of misery that could have been foreseen easily.
No gay or lesbian civil union, no same sex marriage no gay and lesbian child adoption is going to address this fundamental problem in the souls of the homosexual community.
Laws, fundamental gay and lesbian R-I-G-H-T-S, I read so often about it on the Internet.
I’m sorry to inform you that it is n o t a matter of rights.
It is a matter of the Love that can only be reached in its very nature in a heterosexual relationship.
janverhees@wanadoo.nl
God refused to allow love to be accessible inside my homosexual soul? Wow. That was a pooty thing for God to do. I think I remember reading that in the third chapter of the Book of Cellulites. (A lesser known part of the Apocrypha)
Jan,
“God considered himself not to be a gay man or a lesbian woman.”
I’m having difficulty understanding your point. Are you suggesting God is heterosexual? Do you really view God as a sexual being? With whom do you think God has sex?
“That’s the very place where he puts the gay and lesbian world in a discredit: he refused to allow Love te be accessible inside your homosexual soul.”
That’s interesting. Other than simply being a statement of bias, this has no value whatsoever. It does, however, remind me of the arguments in the antebellum South in which preachers claimed that black people could be enslaved because they did not have a soul.
Just so you know, Jan, love can be experienced as fully in a gay relationship as in a heterosexual one. As full, as deep, as committed, and as wonderful.
Your claims to the otherwise will not be convincing to people here who know that love by experience.
It would be as if we came to you and said, “Jan, you don’t like icecream.” You know yourself and you know whether you like icecream and if indeed you do like icecream you are going to think we are a bit crazy and discount whatever we say. So too will those of us here who know ourselves and know the love we experience simply dismiss you and anything you say when you make claims that from our experience we know not to be true.
Hi Tomothy & Boo,
As you will have noticed from my email address I live in the Netherlands. Whenever I “climb” the Internet and look for gay sites, it’s always so striking and always so confusing to see the abundance of gay sites, gay organizations, gay clubs, gay restaurants, gay games, gay sports, and other gay notions one has to encounter on the net. You get the impression that – one way or another – gay people (and of course the same goes for the lesbian equivalent) try to to sell a product that has no sales value at all. A produt that won’t fly.
When in Amsterdam, the capital of the Netherlands, the homosexual portion of the Dutch people wanted to erect a monument for the homoseual community, it took a lot of chaotic effort to finance this monument. Finally, after the Dutch government added a sum of money, the monument was built. The finance effort itself was concluded after a number of years. So UN-inspiring is gay and lesbian “love”. The Homomonument (as it is called) consists of several stone plates alongside a canal. So, it is (Homosexual Ladies and Homosexual Gentlemen) definitely N-O-T a French cathedral-like buiding with gigantic dimensions, that was going to take tens of years to construct by hundreds of persons. Only the best US Navy SEAL who excels in card-and compass exercises knows where the Homomonument is to be found in Amsterdam.
Enjoy your icecream !
Wow, masturbations with somebody elses penis is …… great! This must be L-O-V-E.
Where do I find the local bull on this farm?!
Maybe this t-o-o is going to result in God’s eternal and never-ending love!
Oo-kaay… someone’s plainly got bonked on the head by a large red cheese on their way to the clog factory.For people interested: the monument, not to the homosexual community, but to those gay men and women murdered by the Nazi’s is here. A monument to some of the very exgayed, one could say.Jan, for a person who so resents all this gay stuff… you’re sure making quite a career out of looking for it. Or let me guess, all these organisations and webpages just fly out of nowhere and attack you?Just like that large red cheese did.
I guess Jan’s tinfoil helmet must have fallen off. Beware Jan- the government microwaves are penetrating your brain!!! To the Batcave!!!
Jan,
perhaps there are cultural difference which contribute, but it seems to me that we have a lack of communication.
To participate here you have to be part of the conversation.
You cannot simply show up and make unsubstantiated claims and ignore any questions that may be directed to you. For example, if you make statements about God’s sexual tastes and then are questioned as to what you’re talking about, it is inappropriate to ignore the questions and then go on to rant about cathedrals.
You must make postings that are relevant to either the original post or to the current conversation. Your discussion about the homomonument are neither. And you did not provide any context to explain why you discussed this monument or what point you were trying to make.
You should know something about your subject before you start posting. To suggest that gay relationships are nothing other than a particular sex act is ignorant and suggests immaturity and bias rather than support for your position. Those who post here are generally well versed in fact and philosophy. If you show up ranting about bulls on farms and monuments in Amsterdam, you are going to be dismissed as nothing other than a crackpot.
Finally, rather than assume that the abundance of gay sites is somehow trying to sell something to you, consider that it might be in response to a market demand from gay people. Sites for gay organizations (a gay rugby club, for example) are not trying to find heterosexuals to convert by means of rugby, but rather are simply letting gay people who enjoy playing rugby know how to find others with similar interest.
I wish you well, Jan, and if you can come up to the standards of discourse engaged at this site you are certainly welcome to contribute. But until you are able to present your positions logically and coherently, you may want to reconsider participating.
Thank you Timothy for your comment.
Maybe we should make a similar discussion about the aims of the homosexual community to “integrate”into society. This is my point of view. When in Holland (I hope you are not going to forbid me to talk on this site about my native country Holland) the gay and lesbian community are making unsubstantiated claims of their wish to integrate, I am inclined to have my doubt about these claims. This is what my objection is to the homosexual “integration” fairy tale: it means having sex overtly in the public domain. In Holland you can find the names of the parking lots and woods where gay sex is overtly taking place, Mr. Kincaid, on the Internet. So, if I am allowed to voice my criticism, the definition of integration as it is used by the gay community is – to my humble yet sarcastic opinion: one homosexual man is causing with his left of right hand an ejaculation with the penis of an other homosexual man. A member of the municipality council of Amsterdam has even put forward 40 proposals to design a sort of of sign with the letters H.O.P. on it. H.O.P. means Homofielen Ontmoetings Plaats, in English: Gay Meeting Spot These signs indicate where homosexual activity is allowed to take place. Sort of traffic symbols. The proposals were greeted with a lot of hate mail and were rejected by the Municipality of Amsterdam.
You should consider this gay integration fairy-tale as my answer to your remark about gay rugby players who are trying to find similar rugby players with a similar ‘interest’. Perhaps we see these rugby players as tourists in Amsterdam in or around gay woods or public toilets to prove their ‘similar interst’ in integrating in an orderly (Dutch) society.
As to your statement about cathedrals, you may reconsider your opinion in this way that it is very obvious from my contribution that the homosexual type of relationship is the UN-inspired type of relationship. Building a cathedral takes tens of years. A long time to design, a long time to find the appropriate funds and especially a long time to build. Besides, it is not just a square warehouse without windows that the people in the past built. Is is a design that is very inspiring, creative and has a lot of elegance. These buildings can only have been designed and built by people who believed in their cause. [Snap jij het nou nog nie?!] A religion that is full of inspiration. Creating a House of God that is the expression of their religion. I have tried to draw a parallel with the homosexual “religion”: the monument in the capital of the Netherlands, the Homo-monument (Gay Monument) in Amsterdam is an expression of a religion that totally lacks inspiration. Only a couple of large pink tiles alongside a canal express this gay ‘religion’. Besides, this monument – as I said earlier – was built after a chaotic period to find funds.
You must have eagerly overlooked my previous philosophiqal statement.. It took y-e-a-r-s to collect the funds and finally a marginal monument is all that remains of the homosexual “religion”. If you previously considered my remark about the cathedral and the Homomonument as unsubstantiated claims, I hope this explanation is going to shed some more light on the ’value’of gay and lesbian relationships. With so many gay and lesbian boys and girls, gay and lesbian men and women around in Holland, this pink ‘cathedral’, that merely consists of 2 or 3 pink tiles or so, is the living proof of the structurally loveless gay ‘inspiration’. The gay monument is a sign of absence of inspiration, absence of love in gay and lesbian relationships. You see it clearly reflected in the Homo-monument: you almost need a Scanning Tunnelling Microscope to find the Gay Monument in Amsterdam, Timothy.
I ‘m sorry to inform you that Grantdale is not quite “……… properly versed in fact and philosophy….. “ to quote Timothy Kincaid: the monument to those gay men and women murdered by the Nazi’s, alongside all the other men and women murdered by Hitler’s Germany, is on De Dam in Amsterdam: the Nationaal Momument (National Momument). That’s the official monument where a-l-l victims of Nazi Germany (including gay men and including gipsies) are commemmorated. I have never heard of complaints of gypsies about the lack of a gypsy monument. Perhaps the Gypsies think: Gay, or gipsy or heterosexual: does not matter: all of us are commemmorated at the Nationaal Monument because
a-l-l our loved ones that we lost during WW II are symbolically commemmorated at the Nationaal Monument on De Dam.
Timothy, you also say “Just so you know, Jan, love can be experienced as fully in a gay relationship as in a heterosexual one. As full, as deep, as committed, and as wonderful.”I consider this to be an unsubstantiated claim. Perhaps you should rethink your remark in the light of the gay and lesbian domestic violence. There are websites around that disprove your claim that is so “ ……. well-versed in fact and philosophy ……….” …..”(Mr. Kincaid’s statement). In this context I suggest you visit the next websites:
http://www.gmdvp.org (Gay Men DomesticViolence Project); http://www.psychpage.com (about domestic violence in gay couples) http://www.the body.com (domestic violence and abuse in the gay community). Heterosexual domestic violence is by nature different. Love is in principle by its very nature only accessible in heterosexual relationships. In gay and lesbian relationships however it is not the argument that one chose the wrong person to have a relationship with, it is the wrong sex to have a relationship with. Hence, comparing heterosexual relationships with homosexual relationships is comparing apples with pears. The very nature of the heterosexual relationship and the very nature of a homosexual relationship are so vastly and structurally different. Perhaps you should look at the following statement of Richard Weller, a former gay man from Oregon, who underscores my arguments. In contrast to you Timothy, he is no longer a disciple of the Politics of dishonesty. In my view, the politics of dishonesty consists of making statements while you know beforehand that only the o-p-p-o-s-i-t-e of one’s statement is true.
This is what Richard Weller has to say about the Politics of Dishonesty.
By Richard Weller
March 28, 2002
NewsWithViews.com
“When I was 17 years old I was recruited into the gay lifestyle by an older homosexual man. Like so many young people who get drawn into homosexuality, I was lonely, naive and vulnerable. My father was an alcoholic. My self-esteem was very low. I was easy prey for anyone who was willing to exploit my need for a fathers love.
It started as a conversation in a Greyhound Bus Depot, and ended eleven years and six homosexual relationships later.
I tried imitating others when they said they were born gay, I would say “me too”! It seemed an easy way to get people to accept us. If we were born gay that took away any personal responsibility for our behavior and made people feel sorry for us. All along though, we knew it was a convenient lie.
I love and respect myself today, but I hate the things that I used to do. Homosexual sexuality is perverse and unhealthy, both physically and emotionally. We put on such a respectable image, but inside we were miserable and ashamed. Like many young gays, I tried to commit suicide because I didn’t think there was a way out.
Today I am living proof that homosexuals can and do change. I was as deep in the lifestyle as anyone. I spent nine years with my piano teacher and even thought about getting “married.” I was 100% gay, now I am 100% recovered from that sick and twisted life. They call it “gay”, but I wasn’t gay at all, I was miserable. I can’t think of a more miserable way of life.
Some people believe that compassion for homosexuals means approving of their lifestyle, but I thank God that others still have the guts to insist that it’s wrong, otherwise I might still be trapped. homosexuality, or see them go along with the idea”.
Maybe you should reconsider participating, Timothy.
Jan.
Next time an Atomic Force Microscope (AFM), grantdale ?!
Sounds like Jan’s argument is
1. Public places for sex are bad (and clearly marked, so they’re hard for innocent people to avoid).
2. Gay people can’t build cathedrals, and this is parallel to the fact that their relationships are not worthy.
3. Someone else’s experience of deep homosexual love is an “unsubstantiated claim.”
4. There is an individual who has a story of change.
Some (brief) replies.
1. Public sex is not the same thing as homosexuality. That’s a topic which could be pursued–defended or not. But to use that as an example of homosexuality is not legitimate, as it is only one expression of same-sex sexual activity.
2. I’m not sure where to start except to note that a) perhaps some gay people were involved in building cathedrals. Michaelangelo painted the inside of one–does that count? b) we’re living in a different artistic period
3. What kind of evidence would substantiate someone else’s subjective experience? (Note that Timothy isn’t arguing that he experienced a UFO–which is something subject to empirical verification. He is talking about experiencing love, which so far, we have no empirical tests for.)
4. Yep. He has a story. But, ahem, see number 3 on Jan’s argument. Self-defeating.
Oh, and I suggest a rule that foreign languages should be translated–for everyone’s benefit.
Wat denkt u aan dat, Jan?
Don’t forget 5- domestic violence is somehow “different” between gay versus straight couples. Exactly how it’s “different” she hasn’t explained tho.
6- the “politics of dishonesty” involves making statements ones knows to be untrue, and Timothy is involved in this sort of politics, even tho he has said nothing untrue. The politics of dishonesty however has nothing to do with making wild unsubstantiated claims as Jan has.
8- homosexuality is a religion to Jan, instead of a sexual orientation as it is to the rest of us.
And btw, Richard Weller doesn’t say he was gay and is now straight. He says he was involved in unhealthy relationships and stopped being involved in them, and instead of blaming his unhealthy behavior on his own poor life choices he blames it on his sexual orientation. It’s a shame the ex-gay movement discourages personal responsibility in this manner.
yeah yeah, I can’t count
Well, Jan, you have nothing other than your opinion that gay love isn’t the equivalent of heterosexual love – how would you know, have you experienced gay love?
I’ve loved women and married a woman, now I love a man. I speak from experience when I tell you that gay love certainly is the equivalent of heterosexual love – you can take that to the bank.
“The gay monument is a sign of absence of inspiration, absence of love in gay and lesbian relationships.”
Ah, inspiration. Now if inspiration is evidence of love, gays have it in abundance:
Michelangelo Buonarroti
Leonardo Da Vinci
Alexander the Great
Peter Ilyitch Tschaikovsky
George Frideric Handel
T E Lawrence
Alan Turing
E M Forster
Sappho
Christopher Marlowe
Philip Cortelyou Johnson
Truman Capote
And that is just a tiny percentage of gay men and women filled with an inspiration that has survived the centuries.
Oh, and most studies say up to 33% of LGBs are abused by domestic partners, compared to a heterosexual rate of up to 44%:
https://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/feeds/hscout/2006/05/31/hscout532736.html
Hi, Boo, I’m a h-e, not a s-h-e.
“5. The “politics of dishonesty” involves making statements ones knows to be untrue, and Timothy is involved in this sort of politics, even tho he has said nothing untrue. The politics of dishonesty however has nothing to do with making wild unsubstantiated claims as Jan has.?”
The wild unsubstantiated claim is Richard Wellers description of the world of homosexuality. Perhaps you should read Richard Weller’s account once more. It gives you a privileged peep in the misery of the homosexual world.
Randi’s gay ‘love’ is clearly defined by Robert Weller. Only gay sex exists. Gay ‘love’ is always going to remain a fata morgana. So you should travel to the south of Algeria and there you see in the desert the Fata Morgana that represents gay ‘love’. It looks like ‘gay love’ but in reality it’s just a notion without a body. Choosing for a gay lifestyle is therefor the same as choosing for an empty lifestyle. It’s just the joy of an orgasm, nothing more.
Timothy you have named a number of people who are said to be gay, but I’m afraid you missed one. Below you find the complete list of gay and lesbian people:
Michelangelo Buonarroti
Leonardo Da Vinci
Alexander the Great
Peter Ilyitch Tschaikovsky
George Frideric Handel
T E Lawrence
Alan Turing
E M Forster
Sappho
Anita Bryant (Save our Paedophiles)
Christopher Marlowe
Philip Cortelyou Johnson
Truman Capote
Maybe Anita is also filled with inspiration that has survived the centuries. Perhaps you may have forgotten, Timothy but Pjotr Tsjaikovsky was married to Nadeshda von Meck, so his homosexual deviation must have been an authentic American fairy-tale. The couple had one child, a boy called Modest (the same first name of Pjotr’s brother and grandfather)
“Oh, and most studies say up to 33% of LGBs are abused by domestic partners, compared to a heterosexual rate of up to 44%”. I just do not understand what you are trying to say. In Air Force Magazine (a periodical of the United States Air Force), I read about laser-guided bombs. What has a laser-guided bomb (LGB) got to do with a homosexual relationship?! Tell me, Timothy.
Your statements about “most studies say” is a never-ending story. If one study proves that the quality of homosexual life is high, there are ten other studies that disprove that study. If an other study proves that the quality of heterosexual life is high, there are in turn also ten other studies that disprove that study. This is a-l-w-a-y-s going to remain a so-called “scientific”cat-and-mouse game. I’ve seen it so often on the Internet, also in the field of adoption of children by gay men and lesbian women on the one hand and adoption by heterosexual couples on the other hand.
“Loads of studies seem to indicate that not a single study has found children
of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to
children of heterosexual parents.” (the American Psychological Association & the American Association for the Advancement of Paedophilia).
I am convinced that my proposal to the Municipality of Amsterdam to demolish the symbol of homosexuality, this so-called Homo-monument, will pass. Before year’s end the remaining site is finally going to serve a useful purpose: it will be the place where a new control station for Amsterdam’s electric grid is to be built. The proposal will be sent within short notice.
CK and Boo, do you really want me to comment on each and every item you have posted there?
And, CK, you “… suggest a rule that foreign languages should be translated
for everyone’s benefit”.
I refuse to do so CK.
Here we go, CK:
Mentrum GGZ Psychiatrisch Ziekenhuis
t.a.v. de heer B. Premsela, geneesheer-directeur,
Plantage Middenlaan 52
1018 DH Amsterdam
Den Haag, 30 maart 2006.
Onderwerp: diagnose hr. Verhees te Rijen
Amice !
Graag zou ik uw aandacht voor het volgende willen vragen.
Op 24 maart 2006 heeft de heer Verhees, Johannes Cornelis Maria, geboren 16-05-1957 te Breda [patiëntendossiernr. 1488988-1A] zich bij mij op het spreekuur gemeld.
De heer Verhees is een 48-jarige zieke man en heeft het volgende aan mij kenbaar gemaakt.
De aanleiding
De heer Verhees heeft mij medegedeeld dat hij op 22 maart 2006 een bezoek heeft gebracht aan het Groot Staatscircus van Moskou, dat in de periode van 20 tot en met 22 maart 2006 een vijftal optredens verzorgde in de kern Rijen, gemeente Gilze en Rijen.
Gelet op de wel zeer specifieke problematiek van patiënt Verhees, leek het me dienstig om Verhees zoveel mogelijk te citeren, een en ander ter kenschets van het beeld van deze zieke man.
Dit is wat hij mij vertelde:
“Ja dokter, op 22 maart ging ik naar een optreden van het Groot Staatscircus van Moskou, hier in Rijen. Ik houd nogal van Rusland en de Russische cultuur, en ik wilde dit circus daarom wel eens met mijn eigen ogen aanschouwen.
Nadat de tent vol was, werd het circusprogramma gestart.
Allereerst waren er de tijgers in de tijgerkooi.
Spannend om te zien, al die wilde beesten.
Daarna werden de tijgers weggevoerd en werd vervolgens de kooi afgebroken, zodat het tweede nummer kon beginnen.
Het betrof een act van een aantal erg schaars gekleden Russische vrouwen van achter in de twintig, die hun salto?s en andere adembenemende capriolen hoog in de trapeze lieten zien.
Ik raakte er echt hélemaal van in vervoering. Mijn geestdrift en mijn opwinding waren bijna niet te verwoorden.
Toen die Russinnen met hun voorstelling in de nok van de circustent bezig waren, kreeg ik na enkele minuten last van een stijve nek en een stijve penis.
Nu meld ik me hier bij u, dokter, teneinde een oplossing te vinden voor het probleem van mijn stijve nek.”
De diagnose
De klachten van de stijve nekspieren zijn duidelijk herleidbaar tot het langdurig kijken in de hoogte.
De nekspieren van patiënt Verhees zijn daarbij kennelijk in meerdere of mindere mate overbelast.
Ik verwijs patiënt in dezen naar een fysiotherapeut. Het is mijn vermoeden dat met een kortdurende behandeling volstaan kan worden.
Het krijgen van een stijve penis is echter van zeer ernstige aard.
Om die reden dient de heer Verhees eerst hiervoor behandeld te worden, alvorens de heer Verhees voor de stijve nek door een fysiotherapeut behandeld kan gaan worden.
Het krijgen van een erectie, veroorzaakt door vrouwelijk naakt wordt door het CDA en door het COC gezien als een ernstige tot zeer ernstige afwijking van de menselijke geest.
Dit is ook mijn persoonlijke overtuiging.
Om die reden acht ik in dit specifieke geval zelfs termen aanwezig om patiënt met voorrang op basis van dwangopname in het kader van artikel 20 van de Wet Bijzondere Opnemingen Psychiatrische Ziekenhuizen (Wet BOPZ) op te laten nemen (zogeheten inbewaringstelling). De roze dagburgemeester van Amsterdam, de heer Job Cohen, heeft in dezen baanbrekend werk verricht door de lastgeving tot dwangopname van Verhees met spoed en met voorrang te ondertekenen, zodat tot onmiddellijke behandeling van patiënt kon worden overgegaan.
De heer Verhees is op het moment van dit schrijven ondergebracht in uw ziekenhuis, zoals u weet, zodat de bescherming van de maatschappij tegen deze zeer geesteszieke man uit Rijen gevoeglijk als feit mag worden aangenomen.
Het behandelproces en externe specialismen
Omdat ik vermoed dat patiënt niet aan zeer langdurige behandeling zal kunnen ontkomen, gezien de aard van zijn problematiek, lijkt het me zinnig hier eventuele externe specialismen de revue te laten passeren die mogelijk een bijdrage kunnen leveren aan het herstelproces van patiënt.
Te denken valt bijvoorbeeld aan Kinderwerkgroep Martijn, het Homo kennis Centrum, Kenniscentrum Lesbische en Homo-Emancipatie, Rozehulpverlening, Holebi-Federatie Nederland, Mini-site van COC Nederland: “Iedereen heeft wat – Wat heb jij??” en tot slot (nogmaals) Kinderwerpgroep Martijn.
Het is mijn persoonlijke overtuiging dat de Kinderwerkgroep Martijn mij in eerste instantie voor Verhees de meest aangewezen hulpverleningsinstantie lijkt.
Wellicht kunnen ook de overige hierboven genoemde instellingen patiënt Verhees weer op het rechte pad krijgen met behulp van onder meer therapie en veel, héél veel medicijnen.
VWS- subusidie bijzondere ziektegevallen
Ik attendeer u tot slot ? wellicht ten overvloede – op de mogelijkheid om voor patiënt bij het Ministerie van VWS een subsidie bijzondere ziektegevallen aan te vragen in het kader van de zogeheten “Regeling Van Mesdagkliniek-onderzoeken”.
Met de meeste hoogachting tekent,
M.L. de Pater-van der Meer
COC – Lid afdeling Den Haag
[tevens lid van de CDA-fractie van de Tweede kamer der Staten-Generaal]
[tevens beschermvrouwe van Kinderwerkgroep Martijn]
NB
Een kopie van deze medische rapportage wordt door mij ter hand gesteld aan een kennis van
mij die werkzaam is bij het Homo kennis Centrum.
I suggest you find for yourself a Dutch interpreter. The subject has got everything to do with homosexuality and is an implicit reply to CK’s and Boo’s brief replies to my statements.
I can impossibly translate the letter because I’ve got other things to do as well, today.
The letter is in fact a psychiatric report about myself.
Why don’t you send Richard Weller to the scaffold, Boo. In your opinion he is the guy who betrayed the interests of gay society.
Randi says: “Well, Jan, you have nothing other than your opinion that gay love isn’t the equivalent of heterosexual love – how would you know, have you experienced gay love??”
Well, to be honest, Randi. I had a very gay time in the Groot Staatscircus van Moskou, here in Rijen, while I was looking at their second performance. One way or another I must have become gay about what I saw going on high in the circus tent.
Jan Verhees.
“The wild unsubstantiated claim is Richard Wellers description of the world of homosexuality. Perhaps you should read Richard Weller’s account once more. It gives you a privileged peep in the misery of the homosexual world.”
No, it gives you a privileged peep into the self-inflicted misery of Richard Weller. See, I’m already in “the homosexual world,” so I know it’s not miserable. Sorry. It’s just too bad people like you feel compelled to enable people like Richard in his quest to avoid personal responsibility for his actions. He could have chosen to engage in healthy same-sex behavior, but he did not.
“Your statements about “most studies say” is a never-ending story. If one study proves that the quality of homosexual life is high, there are ten other studies that disprove that study. If an other study proves that the quality of heterosexual life is high, there are in turn also ten other studies that disprove that study. This is a-l-w-a-y-s going to remain a so-called “scientific”cat-and-mouse game. I’ve seen it so often on the Internet, also in the field of adoption of children by gay men and lesbian women on the one hand and adoption by heterosexual couples on the other hand.”
Running away from the science on this issue is a good move on your part, since it clearly does not support you. Maybe next you can investigate curing cancer by twirling a rubber chicken over the patient’s head. “Science” says that’s not going to work, but why should that stop you? Onward and upward!
“Why don’t you send Richard Weller to the scaffold, Boo. In your opinion he is the guy who betrayed the interests of gay society.”
It’s very generous of you to tell me what my opinions are, because how else am I going to know what my opinions are? Sorry, Richard didn’t “betray the interests of gay society,” he’s just blame-shifting. Far better if he could be convinced to take some personal responsibility.
Oh, and taking the example of the negative behavior of one member of a group and projecting it onto the entire group, and then claiming it’s the truth just because you say so, is sort of the definition of bigotry.
That does it for me. Jan doesn’t know how to enter into civil discourse.
From what I could translate through BabelFish, the letter is about Jan’s problems with an erection at a circus. Not sure how that is relevant, but if he really wanted us to know, I’m sure he would have summarized.
I’m done with this thread.
Jan said “Randi’s gay ‘love’ is clearly defined by Robert Weller. Only gay sex exists.”
I’ve got news for you Jan, you and Robert Weller don’t define my love, I do. Let me assure you that in my “gay” relationship there is much love and precious little sex. Your willingness to make statements of certainty about that which you know nothing merely highlights your foolishness.
I never heard of Robert Weller and couldn’t care less about him. If he’s a hero of your’s he obviously has nothing of value or truth to say.
Jan’s comments have consisted of sweeping, and defamatory statements about all homosexual persons as a class. Jan has also declined to substantiate his claims about sex, love, domestic violence, and other commenters.
In addition to the bigotry and intellectual dishonesty just cited, Jan has constributed a destructive tone to the discussion by refusing to extend courtesy or good will toward commenters. While Jan sneers at any/all same-sex-attracted persons, Jan offers no objections to public heterosexual sex and lust.
In short, it seems to me that Jan is coping with his own sexual and political conflicts (not necessarily same-gender attraction, but internal conflicts nonetheless) by lashing out at other people. And he is purposely doing so on a page whose topic is the ability of emotionally and spiritually mature exgays to model tolerance.
Jan is banned due to his refusal to engage in civil two-way conversation, his repeated lobbing of blind accusations against fellow discussion participants, and his disruption of a discussion with off-topic remarks.