Steve Rothaus of The Miami Herald wrote Oct. 11 about an ex-ex-gay Christian man, Jerry Stephenson, who is featured in Wayne Besen’s new book, Anything But Straight.
Rothaus contrasts Stephenson’s depressing experience as an ex-gay with that of Randy Thomas, spokesman for Exodus International.
”Just as I wasn’t ashamed to be a gay man, I shouldn’t be ashamed to be ex-gay,” Thomas said. “I want people to know that if they want to overcome homosexuality, they can.”
If the quote is accurate, then Mr. Thomas vastly overstates the success rates found in the ex-gay movement’s own studies. “If they want to overcome same-sex attraction, there’s a very small chance they can” would have been more honest.
Honest if, in fact, Exodus has read its own studies.
Hey, nobody gives a tinker’s damn whether or not Thomas is an EX-gay. Ignoring the fact that it would be nice if he were to provide evidence for his claim that he is EX-gay, the fact is that the problem with Thomas and others of his ilk (i.e., the political “ex-gays”) is that they are quite active in trying to deny equal rights for those of us who have no objection to being gay. What is there with that?
NB: I should mention that I know a few people who are “ex-gay” without having gone through the religious mumbo-jumbo. And I know more than a few people who are “ex-straight,” also without going through some sort of mind-bending.
Look, the fact is that Thomas has a nice gig with an organization that gets money from conservative christians. It’s unfortunate that Thomas sees fit to bash other people–gay people–for his livelihood, but others have done that in the past, and others will do that in the future. Money does, after all, make the world go ’round.
On a slightly different–but related–topic
Losing a Church, Keeping the Faith
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/opinion/19SULL.html
Looks like the mental disorder that is conservative christianity has finally claimed another victim
I cannot for the life of me understand why Mr. Sullivan simply does go and receive valid sacraments in Dignity if taking the sacrament is so important to him as part of his spiritual life. He doesn’t even have to accept Dignity’s political/social stances if they happen to be too left wing for him.
I probably should not speculate but I think it is a case of him being, or seeing himself, as a “celebrity” in the gay movement. It then just becomes harder to just get down with the common folk, especially if most of their political/social views are to the left of you. However, if he could put up with the official church’s teachings on gays for so long and still attend mass and receive the sacraments there, I can’t see why he can’t do it in a group like Dignity.
It really baffles me.
I share some of his political views, and have sympathy for what he is going through, but I have to say that girl is even starting to work my last nerve. You would think he is the only gay Catholic, or gay Orthodox, Christian who ever had to work through issues with The Church.
I have been keeping Andrew in my prayers for a long time now. Over a decade ago, I experienced what he is enduring now and chose to leave the church. My dad’s Catholic funeral and the passing a month before of my childhood priest and lifelong friend (a completely inclusive and loving person) made me realize how deeply I miss the Church. I used to get really annoyed when my mother would say, “One a Catholic, always a Catholic.” Now I know that on many levels, she is right, and even though I now consider myself an MCC Protestant and pseudo-Episcopalian, I will always be Catholic. Which is tough, because I am not going back unless and until things change, which is hardly likely, at least in my lifetime.
Dignity is a wonderful group. Perhaps Andrew may try it at some point. But nothing is different there — yes, one can receive certain sacaraments through the organization’s liturgies, but the fact is, it is still a “less-than” situation. And many people can not settle for “less-than.” I certainly can not and will not.
I’m sorry he is working your last nerve, DW, but I think Andrew’s writings on this subject — in the New York Times, no less — are a very valuable educational tool for the masses. I’ll bet there are many Republican Catholics, for instance, who have never looked at the situation from a gay man’s point of view. If they read this article, they have now. Some will still not care after reading it, but some will. And a few may talk about it among their parish councils and whatnot. Who knows what could come from that?
Dignity Washington is quite conservative, though perhaps not as conservative as Andrew’s former parish.
Dignity Masses are held in non-Catholic facilities, and they are not led, at least openly, by Catholic priests.
Some view the use of Dignity as one’s *primary* “parish” as an acknowledgment that one has left the official Roman Catholic Church. And it might signal one’s tolerance, though not acceptance, of that departure.
If Andrew has stopped attending a “valid” Catholic parish, then as far as the church and general public is concerned, he has left the church whether he attends Dignity or not.
Somehow I am under the impression that it is almost impossible to leave the Catholic Church. Regardless of what one does, what one has become, one is still carried as a member on the rolls of the parish in which one grew up. A friend of mine tried to get herself removed from her childhood parish. After a letter explaining to the priest that she had divorced and remarried, counseled women to have abortions, become a UUA minister, on and on; the priest refused to remove her name. She still gets parish fundraising appeals that begin ‘dear member of …’.
So, if you know the secret to getting off the membership listings, please publish them. Many, many people have been trying for decades to accomplish this.
I have heard many stories like that. In my case (this was in 1991), I told my then-pastor I was leaving and why, and my name was promptly removed. Then again, I was pretty high-profile in the parish, having been involved in choir, youth ministry, and religious education. It was probably to their advantage to erase any trace of the queer lady having been there.
And that is correct, Mike — if Dignity is one’s primary place of worship, you’re gone or you might as well be gone, as far as the Church is concerned. In truth, being in Dignity is kind of like being in limbo: You have one foot in and one foot out of the RCC. It is, I believe, a good place for folks like Andrew. There may be no priests, but one is treated with love and respect there, and that is important to have in one’s faith community.
Here is the url to AS’s article, found the one Raj used didn’t work. Hope this one does:
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/opinion/19SULL.html
Also thought the essay was whiney and self pitying. As far as I am concerned there is a clear choice with clear alternatives. Leave or stay. The conditions of each are fairly clear and set out. Enough already, make up your mind.
Mike, how do you post URL’s here? Tried to put in the one for AS’s article and it will not work.
Thanks, Dale
Geez, people, a little compassion, please. No, Andrew is not the only person to go through something like this. But this is how the situation is affecting him. He is in pain. And he has put his pain on display — not for gay people, but for all people — in the New York-friggin’-Times. And today, they got to see the humanity behind the Catholic homosexual.
I know Catholic people. There are those who will read that and take it to heart. The people are the true Church, not the robed men in hats. That is how change begins, in the minds and hearts of people. Sometimes, in order to reach those hearts, we have to let them see what exists in ours. (Geez, I sound like a bridgerly someone many XGWers know.)
You guys can insult Andrew all you want, but what he did was very brave, and it may be helpful for the cause.
Leaving one’s church is, in some respects, like coming out. You have to do it in your own way and in your own time. I left the RCC in 1991. How many years had I been struggling with that decision? More than I can remember. I didn’t stay as long as I did out of fear — it was because my goal was to change things from the inside. Same with Andrew; as much as I loathe many of his positions, I know that to be true. Like him, I LOVE that church, that community, that particular brand of worship. But once I realized my efforts were futile, and after carefully considering what should be done, I split. That is not an overnight decision for many people, as inconvenient as that may be for some in the GLBT community.
I don’t need to defend Andrew Sullivan; he can do that himself. He and I politically are poles apart. But he is a human being in enormous pain, a person suffering a pain I know intimately (and one I still feel). It’s a shame some others refuse to find a wee bit of empathy for him.
Dignity takes many forms, liturgically, depending on local practices and circumstances. But I think that in most, or at least many, places masses are said by Catholic priests. It has a lay leadership — which is to its credit. Empowering the laity is something we should be encouraging.
Re: Natalie’s view that Dignity is “less than” and a type of “limbo”. Well this is not the view of many Dignity members with whom I have spoken. It is not the words they would use to describe their own experience. It sounds terrible condenscending to me for her to use those words, even if she speaks as an ex-Catholic. But I think that they are meant to describe her own experience there. I hope it is not the view held by MCC, or of many MCC members, that Dignity is somehow objectively “less than” or a type of “limbo”. For that, I would assume, would imply that MCC is not “less than” and not “limbo” and, therefore, better. And I assume MCC knows that we should be guarding against thinking that our own gay Christian religious community is better than another.
I didn’t mean any such thing, and I apologize if anyone was offended. Dignity is a wonderful and worthy place and, in my mind, equal to any faith community. It is *certainly* not less than MCC or any other group in any way, shape, or form.
What I mean is when Dignity is compared to the Catholic Church itself. You’ll notice that I put the phrase in quotation marks — that was to signify that leaving an accepted Catholic Mass in a Catholic Church to go to Dignity can be seen as being “less than” what goes on in accepted Catholic Mass in a Catholic Church. You know the quality of worship is the same. I know the quality of worship is the same. And the community can be much better than what goes on in a Vatican-approved Catholic parish Mass. But to someone making the transition, it can feel like limbo, especially when one is aware at all times that the Church’s leader is opposed to you and opposed to what you are doing. It is sort of like being relegated to worshipping in the slaves’ chapel while the approved people get to worship as whole people in the Pope-sanctioned Big House. Does that make better sense? Dignity is super for those who are able to find a home and comfort there, and I am glad it exists for all who do. But less than MCC? No way. Since my recent visits to my childhood church, in fact, I realize what is missing when in MCC churches. Nothing against MCC, which has given me much love and many wonderful relationships, but the churches I have attended are more Protestant/Pentecostal in feel, but at my core, I’m still Catholic, however hard I fight it. But I can’t go back, and at Dignity services, I am all too aware of the pain of the Church’s exclusion.
Boy, I’m glad I’m an atheist!
Compassion? For Andrew Sullivan? He has been trying to excuse the Roman Catholic Church, Inc.’s, bashing of gay people for years. Despite the fact, which would be clear to anyone who bothered to pay attention, that the RCCI’s bashing of gay people was part and parcel of its marketing efforts in the turd–sorry, third–world (I’ve been listening to Michael Whiner, nee, Savage, too much). The third world–Africa and south America–is what is driving the RCCI’s message, as should be clear from their trotting out of a bishop from Nigeria–Nigeria of all places–to give a speech at Georgetown University a few months ago regarding gay people.
The RCCI’s bashing of gay people is part of its marketing efforts. Gays are expendable. The fact that Sullivan does not recognize that is his problem. It’s a shame that he feels a need to whine about it in the NYTimes.
BTW, the Anglican church is in almost the same boat as RCCI.
BTW, on the main topic I wonder what evidence Thomas would provide to show that he is “ex-gay.”
Ignoring the fact that nobody cares whether or not he is “ex-gay.” But he seems to make a big deal about it.
Re: Natalie Davis’ comments. Basically I think one should speak from one’s own experience. And since you have identified yourself as a former Roman Catholic who, it has contact with Dignity, I accept that your description as that of your own experience. I am not sure, however, how many others in Dignity, or who have gone thru those doors, have felt the way you describe. Obviously some have felt something like that because they have moved on to other communties or given up altogether seeking an accepting religious community. But , from talking to many members, and although this too is a type of generalization beyond my personal experience (albeit based on my discussions with members), I do not think those feelings are felt by the majority of Dignity members who stay in the organization.
I can say from my own view point, as an Eastern Christian practicing there, that it is a wonderful community which feels in no way “less than” “The Church”. We have priests celebrating the mass in my locale, so maybe that makes a difference.
To combine the two topics here – “ex-gays” and the RCC – I too am one of those who has left the church officially, but still feels culturally like a Catholic. I have not attended MCC or other affirming services, because I still hold the Catholic notion that it is the “true” religion, and I can’t get past that prejudice, although it is weakening.
Interestingly, I also could not get them to take my names off the rolls, even after writing the Bishops of Rochester, NY (where I was baptized), Springfield MA( where I was confirmed) and Washington DC (where I live, but have never been a member of a parish) and demanding ex communication. They keep referring me to Courage, and telling me how wrong I am. Apparently, they can’t get the notion they are my “father” out of their heads.
Interestingly, I have already lived as Courage says – I guess I am an ex-ex-gay, although I never claimed any change in sexual orientation. For most of my 20s, I was celibate, as the Church wanted me, and thought I was resolved to live that way. It is possible (although I would not call it healthy) to eschew all personal involvement as a way of both being gay and staying in the Church, but in the end it was not enough for me. I don’t care if people like Thomas want to remain celibate, but they are not “walking away from homosexuality” they are hiding from it.
What bothers me the most is that the RCC claims to believe that orientation is not a choice, that gays and lesbians must remain celibate, but are still good people. Yet if orientation is not chosen, but giving in to our orientation is an “evil” (as the last Vatican paper on gay marriage put it), then hasn’t God punished us for something? And since the Church has declared that we cannot receive either the sacraments of Holy Orders or Matrimony, does that not mean we are second-class human beings to the Church – ones created by God with defective souls? Does the Church even attempt to analyze the ramifications of its own teachings?
Raj says:
Compassion? For Andrew Sullivan? He has been trying to excuse the Roman Catholic Church, Inc.’s, bashing of gay people for years. Despite the fact, which would be clear to anyone who bothered to pay attention, that the RCCI’s bashing of gay people was part and parcel of its marketing efforts…
Total agreement from here on this Raj. If any public gay figure deserves scorn and derision it is Sullivan. Mr ‘bareback anyone I want who cares if I spread HIV’ should have long ago been thrown out the nearest gutter by the lg world. Wait, that seems to have happened. Only conservative straight people read him. Why is this loathsome pariah held up as an example of gay people?
I feel any sympathy shown him is wildly misplaced.
As a Christian, I have no choice but to show compassion to all, including my opponents. And even if one is not a believer in the divine, it is anti-humanist to wish pain on anyone.
That said, one can show compassion and also be honest about someone’s bad and/or dangerous behavior. I am full aware of the damage Sullivan has done and the awful things he has advocated. I still wish him well as a person, though, especially because I know much about the pain he is enduring.
Take time if you will to visit my site for EX EX GAYS.. http://www.exgaynoway.org
there are testimonys of men who have seen through the tripe offered by the religious right and have come out and are proud of it.
there is a disscussion board to leave and air your feelings about the exgay movement.
thanks for reading Paul
Wow, Paul… the site looks great! Good work so far, and best of luck with it.