Daniel Gonzales of Box Turtle Bulletin took his camera with him to see Eric Leocadio of Two World Collision and came away with some great video testimony. Much of this echoed my own life and Eric tells it with his usual sweet, humble manner. He explains his journey through Ex-Gay programs Desert Stream and Living Waters, and the despair of having Christian friends distance themselves from him as he “came out.”
Do you see yourself in any of this?
“Suicide & The Porcelain Punisher” – Part 1
“The Ex-Gay Program” – Part 2
“Isolation and Exclusion” – Part 3
“Side X Culture” – Part 4
Bonus Q&A
Source: Box Turtle Bulletin
Eric is a great guy 🙂
I imagine all of us who have been down the ex-gay path can see ourselves in Eric’s testimony. When he began sharing about the ‘porcelain punisher’ I suddenly remembered lying on the cold basement floor in my home at the same age – 14. A book I’d read said homosexuality was caused by demons and that self-deliverance was possible (“Deliver Us from Evil” by Don Basham). It also said a slimy substance might ooze out my mouth, so I chose the basement concrete for my exorcism. Nothing happened, of course, apart from lots of shouting and crying. My next exorcism attempt (this time with the help of ‘professionals’) was 24 yrs later with the same results. I wonder sometimes how I managed to keep the effort going all those years and how I got to the place of submitting to an exorcism.
Great testifying, Eric.
I’m still reviewing Eric testimony. I’m a Christian struggle with same sex attraction so I know where Eric is comming from. His response to the Living Water Program is different than mine but for the most part what he is saying about the program I do agree with.
However, at the Anaheim Vineyard Where the Desert Stream Offices have been for many years until two years ago had a big influence how the Anaheim Vindyard ran their Living Water Program.
In my years as being a small group leaader, we allowed the group member to contact each other after the six month program was over. It was only durring when the six months when the Living Waters runs that group members were not allowed to contact each other outside of group. But after the six months, everyone exhanged telephone numbers.
That’s too bad that Erik’s church did not allow their groups to do the same.
John H, thank you for reviewing it and providing your input as a “struggler.” Please keep it up.
I know each church has their own personalities. The church that I am as a small group leader never pray against homosexuals. We would always love them regardless if they agree with us or not.
The only other thing I will point at is lets say you had a close friend that you work with the EX-Gay Watch Web Site with or something similar. Then your friend decided to change their mind on homosexuality and joined Desert Stream. You may agree to stay friends and love each other however over time both of you would naturally move on with your life and find yourself more distance with your friend.
Also lets say for the sake of this point you had decided that the letter “K” is not a good letter. You then found a group of people who agreed with you that the letter “K” is not a good letter. You made many friends from this Anti K Group. But then you change your mind. It was silly not to like the letter “K”. Even though you change your opinion on the letter “K” you would end up very disappointed if you thought everyone or even anyone would change their opinion at the same time as you did. (I only randomly chose the Letter “K”)
How shadow this may sound, many times when the basis where and when the friendship started is shattered, the friendship as will, will do the same.
I’m not down playing Eric’s pain at all when he got out of the closet. So please don’t get me wrong. However, it would do all of us good to count the cost for every life changing event choice we make so we will have a plan of support in place from others if rejections occurs.
It’s just a nice way of saying to take responsibility. In doing so I believe you would avoid lots of pain.
I’m sorry my last commit was cut off at the beinning from my coping and pasting.
Eric is correct about the Side A , Side B, and Side X.
I still need to finish listening to Eric’s testimony before I can coment anymore.
What a powerful testimony. So much of it I can relate to (and I think many of us can), especially the part of telling Christian friends about being gay. When I came out, most of my friends, devote Catholics, had the hardest time accepting me. One friend even said that we could be friends but that he could not be seen with me. A popular anti-gay Mexican saying “mejor ladron que maricon” (better to be a theif than a fag) is pretty much the norm in El Paso and Juarez, at least when I came out about 10 years ago.
Our Bishop in El Paso at the time told a group of us who wanted to start up a Dignity there that there already was a gay ministry…the AIDS Ministry. For me that meant in Roman Catholicism, if you are gay you only exist when you are dying from AIDS.
I especially love that Eric states that he started reading the Bible with the lense that God loves all people and that we are called to love better all people. If only all Christians knew that simple yet powerful truth.
I feel Eric is a strong and a very intelligent person. I am not gay myself but I am a Christian. The Bible clearly states in several passages that it is not okay to practice homosexual acts or adultery and that is not just the Churches perception but a written text. Because God is a creater God, he created us to create with one another and to make love with the same sex does not produce an offspring. One of Gods first commandments to man was to go forth and multiply. The reaction that some Christians or Churches have is not always right and that is why we are all called sinners. In Romans Paul declares that no one is righteous, not one.
God calls us all to love one another and we all have our struggles. I had severe postnatal depression with my son and had horrific thoughts of harming him and I felt absolutely repulsed with myself. How could a loving mother think of her baby in such a way.
All of the people Jesus befrended were not the elite who lived perfect lives but he still asked them to turn away from their previous lives. I think if you look at the books of Paul he talks about not being a slave to sin but a slave to God. I found this helped in my struggles. I know being gay is a definately a different ball game to my struggles but for some time I felt ashamed of myself too, little did I know that I am not the only person who experienced this thing. It is funny how we all want to be the most perfect person and we all can put on our little masks of deception.
I know God knows whats in your heart and even if you mess up from here on in he will not reject you even when others appear to. Concentrate on the things that you do do well and what you cant change leave to God. I think thats what you call faith. God bless
Maree, I’m a Christian and part of a Living Waters Team. The church I go to also has many other different ministries in it as will. The people who run these ministries are ones who had the same struggle as the very same people who they are ministering to.
Many do try to be perfect and it is easy to slip into self-righteousness. I’ve learn if we admit and confess our very own faults and weaknesses to each other and allow others to pray for us, we are able to get free from the self righteous spirit. Many times by doing this God does a great work in our lives and we are able to share the great work that he has done to others as a testimony.
Maree, if I could I would like to encourage you to share that special work(s) that God has done for you and share them by your real life experiences. Then other will also believe that God could do the same thing for them.
You are right only God knows what is in our hearts. However, if you never had experience homosexual thoughts or feelings yourself, merely quoting Scriptures or your opinions on homosexuality will not be received by others as freely as the ones who had. You may have other issues that Living Waters or other ministries like it also addresses, if so please share them. Tell them what God has done for you.
Maree, in response to this, I quote Isaiah 56:3-5:
Maree I did notice that you did share
” I had severe postnatal depression with my son and had horrific thoughts of harming him and I felt absolutely repulsed with myself. How could a loving mother think of her baby in such a way.”
I think your experience can touch many right now who are going through postnatal depression. If you haven’t already please share how God took you through this. You will bring God’s hope to many. Even the ones who had already gone through this experience before like you had; you can address God’s perfect forgiveness and the ways He freed you from any type of guilt that you may had experienced. Besides that you know the nuts and bolts that comes with this depression that only the ones who had it would know about. I myself wouldn’t have the slightest idea what these nuts and bolts are.
However, I know too will the nuts and bolts of someone who as same sex attractions. If someone didn’t have these attractions and from their heart try to tell me about them, it would be very hard for me to listen to them.
I think I already over stated my point.
Maree said:
Maree,
First, you can only speak for Christians who limited themselves to Sacred Scripture; not all Christians do. Second, the Bible does not clearly state many things including sexuality. It is the Church, the members of the Body of Christ, who have made decisions concerning sexuality with guidance by the Holy Spirit. If that were not the case, and if the Church still stuck to the “written word,” then, for example, rapists would have to marry the women they rape. Does your Christian congregation endorse that? (Exodus 22:16)
Third, God did not command men and women to reproduce, the story in Genesis is that of a blessing, not a commandment. Were it a commandment, then those who naturally cannot have children would be in violation of God’s law.
Fourth, it is not because God is a creator that we are required to “create” as well. It is because God is a God of love that we are required to “love one another.”
Fifth, if you are a Christian who relies soley on the Bible for doctrinal beliefs, then I highly recomend you learn at least some basic Hebrew and Greek, and a little Latin as well, and not to rely on translators who may or may not be well equiped with a foreign language let alone their own.
From the Committe on Bible Translation concerning the Today’s New International Version: (I put the words in bold for emphasis.)
Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by imperfect man, this one undoubtedly falls short of its goals.
to read the entire paragraph go to: https://www.ibs.org/niv/background.php
Even scholars know that they can error when translating the Bible.
Maree and John….hi folks. Respectfully, I want to ask you something.
I believe firmly that being instructed on loving one’s neighbor as oneself was the ultimate instruction BECAUSE a foundation on which EMPATHY is built, is the most solid.
It’s not just about how you want to be treated, but what you’ve ALREADY done in response and what the results have been.
Results matter in all of what are described as sins in the Bible.
There are results of certain human behaviors that obviously cannot be accepted which are a variance of betrayal, greed, violence and cowardice.
I am frustrated over and over and over again by how little those thoughts regarding treatment of a human being figures in the discussion on gay people in particular.
Of ALL the marvelous things we avail ourselves of to learn, to communicate and experience each other, there is more of a reluctance to deal with gay people AS gay people than ever before.
To assume a gay person isn’t a part of a plan you haven’t fully understood, what I’m seeing is that everything one already has to know is a done deal, sealed and there is nothing to unseal it.
There is no desire to LISTEN to gay people. No desire to have gay people live by the SAME standards as everyone else in this country or any other. And after centuries of the yoke of prejudice has compromised the population, are fingers pointed at gay people as a living example of incompatability.
Well, with what? Really, with what? Incompatibility with genius? With compassion, with intellectual and spiritual potential, incompatible with love of family, children, parents…dogs and other helpless animals?
Incompatible with the nurturing of culture and the quality of thought on which culture rests?
What?
Homosexuality may be incompatible with making babies, but there is no shortage of that….anywhere, is there?
I’d like to think that any human being has value beyond fertility and fecundity, but most conversations around it fall on that.
Some Christians fail to nurture little in gay children that brings out their full potential.
But that gay children is blamed for whatever results as a rebel against God’s intentions.
Well….who says so? And WHY do they say that? What’s in it for them?
The way I see it, there is no shortage of heterosexuals. There is no shortage of humanity, period.
So, obviously, homosexuality doesn’t come at the expense of the opposite orientation.
So why doesn’ homosexuality have to be sacrificed at all?
What is it about homosexuality that requires changing, when so many people are willing to allow themselves fuller and richer experiences with other people who are different, but pose no serious threat to anything other than clannishness and supriority complexes.
We’ve been there and done that and should know better. I don’t think I’ve had a more humbling experience than when a gay teenager tells me they can be themselves around me and KNOW, absolutely TRUST that I really DO love them.
I don’t trust the person that says ‘I know best what is best for you’, and they don’t really know who they are dealing with in the first place. Just who they WISH they were dealing with. And gay people are the easiest pickings.
Perhaps the time is long past due, where members of our society should stop demanding explanations or justifications on WHY and HOW gay people are here, because they only thing that matters is if a gay person loves us back.
I mean loves us for all the RIGHT reasons, not because they HAVE to and have no other choice when cornered enough and weary enough of the game.
God’s love is already telling us something. To leave gay folks to who they are, and all else WILL be revealed.
Frankly, if straight people keep interfering with the natural progression of being gay, without considering nurturing a gay child the way they would ALL children, it’s no wonder the results have been bad.
Religious people HAVE badly mishandled this issue for a long time, and are no longer in control as much and have created bad results with their lack of empathy, and have more to answer to than any gay person does or should.
Gay people know a LOT more about heterosexuals than the other way around.
I repeat: Gay people know a lot more about heterosexuals than heterosexuals do about gay people.
However, straight folks are strange to watch who insist or think they know otherwise.
And the Bible told you what to do, but it was easier to ignore it because the target didn’t have as many options to challenge that failure on working the golden rule.
I know I’ve said a lot. But think about what you’ve done for gay people, not out of your sense of love….but THEIRS.
I’m sorry that evryone that comes through ex-gay ministry doesn’t make it. You really have to be ready. I made it out of the gay lifestyle 18 years ago. Exodus was much stronger back then. We had Dr Elizabeth Moberly, Joe Dallas, Sy Rogers and Frank Worthen as our role models. Please don’t judge ex-gay minstry by the people who didn’t make it. Judge it by the success stories. Sometimes you have to return a second time. Sometimes you have to see just how screwed up the gay lifestyle is before your willing to do what it takes to leave homosexuality behind permanently. For me it was like coming off heroin. It was the hardest thing I ever attempted and accomplished. But the rewards are the best. May God Bless all of you who seek sexual purity and freedom…Best Regards, Anthony Falzarano
Anthony, does this comment mean the dust has returned to your sandals? In any event, please behave yourself.
Then your problem was heroin NOT being gay. I am assuming you lived in a drug-addicted gay environment. Well, there are straight drug-addicted environments as well. My “lifestyle” would not fit the stereotype of this imaginary “lifestyle” as much as me being half Mexican means that I wear a sombrero, drink tequila till I puke, am dark-skinned, have a mustache that covers half my face, and speak like I’m an extra on a Cheech and Chong movie. There are Mexicans who are upper middle class (like my family) whose lifestyle does not fit the stereotype that Americans have about Mexicans. Gays are no different. The list of types of gay lifestyles are as numerous as there are gay people. At my church alone we have singles, coupled, coupled with children, single with children, etc. etc. We don’t all go to the go go bars every night and get high.
I am glad you no longer have a drug problem, but please do not include me in with drug addicts because I am gay anymore than thinking I am a cholo because I am of Mexican descent.
Alan,
I’m not sure if Anthony was addicted to heroin or not, but I think his statement above was a comparison:
I understand your point, and have to agree with it for those ex-gays who tell a story of making horrendously bad life choices, clean themselves up and then attribute the improvement to no longer accepting their orientation. In this case, however, I don’t think he was saying that.
Something to think about. Do you think Heroin could miss up anyone sexual orientation, gay or streight? What I heard this drug really screws you up.
I think a discussion about whether or not opiates can cause a change in sexual orientation is probably outside the scope of this thread. If you ever find any genuine, scientific evidence to suggest that you can let us know.
David,
Point well made. But at any rate, I don’t appreciate sexual orientation being equated with a drug addiction. But then again I am not surprised at someone like Anthony for making such a statement. Because self-hate is the key to any “success” story from Exodus, phrases and expressions like the one he made is normal for them.
You can take my question two ways. Alan the way you took my question according to your response is that you felt threaten. One could had boldly say yes that drugs does affect your total being and then shared the same response that is commonly shared on other threads on this Web Site. And that is that the Ex-Gay Ministries reaches out to people who are newly saved and are in the drug scheme that has same sex attractions. Then an argument could be made that the new Christians that the Ex-Gay Ministries that were addicted to drugs may have became clean from drugs but not there sexual orientation.
Alan would you agree that in fact many times that the ex-gay ministry associates being gay with drug addiction and uses this to scare people who do have a gay orientation not to act upon it. This is one of the messages that I understand here at this Web Site that I think I heard many times before. Correct me if I am wrong.
I’m a small group leader myself at DSM running a LW group and may not agree with all of this. I’m only trying to make dialogue and understand everyone’s thoughts on this and other issues.
John H., I don’t feel threatened just insulted, as if my sexual orientation is likened to a drug addiction.
I cannot speak for everyone, but seeing how some Christian communities degrade gay people (Catholic-Orthodox included), I would not be surprised if many gay people in these situations turn to drugs and/or alcohol to relieve the pain inflicted upon them by these Fundamentalist communities. And I am pretty certain Exodus and the like use this to their advantage.
I know as much that most of these types of Christian communities stress deliverance from all sorts of things. There is usually some kind of hightened emotional experience and they are “slain by the Spirit” and they are “healed” and “saved” and whatever else these communities include in this sort of packaged deal. The person then walks away thinking they have this invisible shield and that no evil can penetrate them. They develope a belief that they are now perfect and everybody not like them has an “E-ticket” to hell. They don’t sin, and if they are caught doing something bad they usualy have a phrase like “the devil made me do it.” They never owe up to their actions.
I’ve dealt with a number of these people in my family and with friends. It usually renders them totally annoying for the most part. But then usually within a few years (or months depending) they slip, then they get re-saved. It’s a cycle that I find is a rather sad existence.
The tactics Exodus and the like use are just like the ones that these Fundamentalist communities use. It all has to do with scaring someone into believing in God and scaring them into salvation. I never could buy into such a religion because I know the Gospel message well enough to know Jesus didn’t go around saying “Boo” to everybody and scaring them into believing him. Why these communites do not follow Christ’s example is beyond me.
But a lot of what Exodus and the like do is just stereotyping all gays into one category … depressed, lonely, over-sexed, drug addicted men who hate themselves. I find that highly insulting. I guess the only time I felt that insulted was when I took some American friends over to Juarez (El Paso’s sister city in Mexico). I wanted them to meet my family that lives over there and show them some real Mexican hospitality. Their first comment was how amazed they were that there were cars in Mexico. They thought we all rode on donkeys. So I had to educate them on their ignorance. I think we as gays do the same on a daily basis to people who say things like, “You don’t watch Queer Eye for the Straight Guy?” or “You have children?” or “You’ve never done drugs?” or “You’ve been with the same partner for that long?” and the list goes on.
That is why I thank God for this blog because it helps the gay community help others to grow out of their ignorance (myself included). And at times it is painful to have dialogue because we may disagree on a lot of things. But growing out of our ignorance is a painful process.
Thanks for sharing Alan. I do respect your honesty and your sincerity.
What you shared and how you share about your own life in spite of the pain and risk we go through I think will be lot more affective than speaking our negative beliefs about any type of ministry. Also I think it helps our testimony when get out of speaking like if we were always victims all the time.
As do I yours John H.
wow I didnt realise that people would read further into what I said than what was written. I suppose we all have issues and even though I am not gay according to some gay people ‘I can not relate to them or they will not listen to me because I am straight’ all I wanted to say is that we all sin and that we are all sinners and I have gone to bible college so I know what I am talking about. You know I find that some gays are just as defensive as straights.
People want to be understood and when others do connect or relate all that comes back is defensiveness. This situation reminds me of feminism and the attempts of women to be treated equal and then they go overboard when men try to treat them in that respect. It doesnt matter what I say to people about my experiences in my life because obviously the response I have gotten is well what happened to you can not possibly help me but it might help those going through what you have gone through. How rediculous ! In my opinon suffering is all the same regardless of what walk of life that you come from.
When your soul is in pain it doesnt matter where that pain originated from. So all I can say is that either you listen to me and debate like you are writing a thesis or you can say hey that girl has a point and finally a straight person cares
Maree:
I could not disagree with you more on that statement. That is a “one size fits all” statement. I also disagree with that statement because if all suffering were the same, then there would be only one solution necessary to solve all of the world’s suffering. What a gay person suffers is unique first to the gay community at large and then to the individual gay person himself. For example, all gay persons are discriminated by our government by not allowing us to have legal unions. Examples of individual suffering would be that I don’t suffer being discriminated against because I don’t act feminine, but my brothers who do act feminine suffer in a way I can’t even imagine. But by the same token, my partner is from another country, and I suffer months without being able to be with him. My suffering is very different from someone whose partner may live only in another state or another part of the same country.
If you truely care about gay people, then thank you. But if you just want us to be mute and allow you to talk without allowing others to discuss and comment on what you say, then you obviously do not understand the purpose of blogs.
You don’t have to go to a bible college to obtain knowledge about God’s revelation. I don’t think that going to one necessarily qualifies anyone to be an authority on the Sacred Scriptures. It may have helped you better understand God’s revelation, but it does not necessarily place you above others.
I think I just commented on this same thing a moment ago. So I rest my case. Feel free to comment all you like.
You obviously are still not listening and I am sure there are those who wish to bend the rules of the bible. I will therefore leave you with this statement. Let God be the judge and I hope that you listen to him more through the Bible and not try to justify yourself through creating a convincing defence for how you live your life.
All I can say is just read the Gospel and yes go to Bible college if you need to understand it as thouroughly as you can in order to be well informed. I hope you all find peace.
alan s, you say that I think I am above others but previously you told me to learn greek, latin and hebrew all of which are usually learnt at bible college. This blog may be used for comments but you find a special way to bring out the best in people. When you do that the point s that are importantly being made become not the focus of the topic. Rather my lack of revelation of God or my understanding of the pain that people can experience is twisted and warped by people like you. You are just the same as the people who attack gays themselves. Ignorant, rude and inconsiderate
maree,
Just because I may not listen to you does not mean I do not listen to God’s message. And when I do listen to anyone who claims to be God’s messenger, I question and discern what they have to say. It is my right and duty as a religious person to do so.
Throughout Church history, despite her many times being arrogant, the Catholic Church has always explained her doctrine. The many theologians, church fathers, and saints, have also done the same. It’s not a simple “because the Bible says so” attitude that Orthodox Christianity takes. It never has and never will. One reason is that we do not see the Bible as the only source of revelation. The other is that we believe that we have been given knowledge and reason from God who allows us to understand, to the best of our abilities, the things we are to believe and the ability for those in charge of teaching and explaining the faith the ability to do so in a way that is logical and within reason.
As far as bending the rules of the Bible, read the epistles of St. Paul and of the early Church Fathers. They’re all about when and where and how to bend the rules of the Old Testament, which was the only thing considered to be what we now call the Bible for the first 300 years or so of the Church’s existence. Because the Church is a community of believers in God who follow God NOT a book, it knew and understood that the Old Testament could only be understood and interpreted according to the revelations made by Christ through his words and deeds. Even before the New Testament came into being, the Gospel tradition was there, and it was that tradition that had more importance and power over the Old Testament.
Also, I say to learn the Biblical languages not to gain superiority over others, but if one wishes to use scriptures to make a doctrinal claim, they must be aware of its original source. You cannot rely on an English translation to make a claim, for example, that homosexuality is a sin because an English version of the Bible translates it as such. Translators are prone to their own biases.
Obviously God said everything he had to say to humanity in the Bible. He stopped speaking about 1,930 years ago.
Well, except for the portions of the New Testament that really were written a bit later than originally assumed.
Oh yes, and He also spoke to those who compiled Scripture to tell them which books were to be accepted and which to be rejected. And to King James to instruct him to have the Bible translated into English.
And, of course, He spoke to Luther and Henry VII to help created Protestantism. And also to whichever leaders of Maree’s particular denomination to make sure they knew which “rules of the bible” were to be kept (such as homosexuality) and which were to be disgarded (such as slavery or the subjegation of women).
But then He most definitely stopped talking. And anything that doesn’t agree with Maree’s denomination is clearly bending the rules of the bible to justify yourself through creating a convincing defence for how you live your life.
All of which you can be learnt at “Bible College”.
Ahhh, feel the love.
Love the ignorance.
Maree, I wrote earlier that I am leading a group for Christian men who want more freedom from same sex attractions. So in many things I may agree with you. However it doesn’t matter how right we are, if we don’t first love the people we minister to. How much education we have is irreverent. It didn’t work for the Pharisees nor will this type of spirit work for us today.
Before you can love someone or love a community you are going have to walk side by side with them and be willing to share your full aspects of your life, not only your education. You must be willing to touch them and give them a helping hand when needed. You also must allow them to hug you back and allow them to help you.
After you established a relationship with the person or with the community, then and only then will anyone will really listen to you.
Timothy Kincaid, It’s so easy to respond from our own self being at times. What you wrote is understandable; however, let us continue to keep our identity in the Spirit of Love. Let’s guard it so no one can steal it away from us. By doing so, our responses will be so much more powerful and influential to others who receive them.
I don’t mean to sound arrogant myself. (:
Don’t forget the Mormons. God REALLY stopped talking when Joseph Smith translated the lost testament. God created Mormons so that Christians would know how Jews feel.
John H,
chiding accepted 🙂
john H I think that you really do look at what a person is saying and you do not get defensive and try to prove your knowledge of theology which you probably do know a lot about. You said that you dont want to sound arrogant and to put you strait, you definately dont. You have a very loving heart and you do not use the internet to visciously attack people to bring them down a peg or two for your own ego. I will try to follow in the same way that you deal with people more, instead of feeling hurt. I will persevere like you with kindness and respect. You are a living testimony for Christ. You do not make things about yourself and I can see from the things that you say that you put the Lord first in your heart. God Bless you and I do hear you.
Something that I should remind myself often of is that you can only catch flys with honey. xxxxxxxx
Timothy think twice before you write with anger and sarcasm in your heart. I do not think you achieved anything by what you wrote about me. Please feel free about putting your message across without being this way. Do you think Jesus would say ‘feel the love and love the ignorance’. not really. Do not high five yourself.
Okie Dokie, Maree
However, please consider in your writing that not all persons agree with your assumptions.
For example, while you may think that those who disagree with your interpretation of six scriptures may be trying to “bend the rules of the bible”, some here have done extensive studies on this subject and have come to conclusions quite different from your own.
Frankly, these handful of scriptures are vague, at best, and rest solely on guesswork as to meaning. There is more than adequate room to come up with quite a few different interpretaions – and many denominations have done so.
Since you’ve been to bible college, I am certain that you are aware that the word Paul uses in the New Testament was not even an existing word – he made it up – so no one can claim that they truly know what the Scripture intended. Personally, I think that this ambiguity was inspired by God to allow for a rethinking – much the same way that scriptures discussing women and slavery were written in such a way as to allow rethinking.
I believe that if our understanding of a handful of Scripture is inconsistent with what we know God to be, maybe we should challenge our cultural biases rather than decide that God is cruel and arbitrary to a select subset of his creation.
So while you may be here “loving the sinner”, please be aware that many of us don’t think we are sinners (or at least not in the way that you mean).
You may find that to be a bit frustrating. If you are from a denomination that is somewhat insular, you may assume that all Christians (or at least all REAL Christians) share your theology. And when others simply smile and say, “I don’t beleive that”, there is a real temptation to assign them ulterior motivations – such as justification for their sin.
I was quite harsh with you. I apologize.
But I do welcome you to open your horizons, think outside the box, challenge your theology, and love – not by condemning but by rethinking.
I appreciate what you said timothy, but didnt jesus die for all sinners. when I origionally brought up my struggles with postnatal depression and the expectations of the perfect mother in relation to erics struggles in hiding himself to others I wanted to share what it felt like for me. I have a gorgeous little boy and there is no way I want him to go through what you and other gay people suffer on a daily basis like self loathing or being isolated from friends, family or the church. If he does turn out to have feelings like you I know I will absolutely love him with my last breath. Yes I do believe it is a sin but at the same time what sexual preference you have is only a part of any person, just like my morbid thoughts are a part of me. You cant cut that part out of you and yes it is part of who you are. I believe that if I show my son all the love that I can, I have done my job well. Even though PND is accepted in society, women still run around and act competitively like they are the perfect mother. One woman that I thought was absolutely fabulous killed herself and it shocked me to the core. I had no idea of what she was going through. Can I say that even with my beliefs on sin that I have had numberous gay friends through my life as I used to work for Clinique in Sydney. They had the usual relationship problems that they had with their partner that heteros do and I can honestly say that they were alot more stylish than the heteros. I went to Uni to do an visual arts degree and a friend of mine came out around the time Madonna went all bondage looking. He was a photographer and performing artist. He decided to do an almost pornographic performance for his major critic. My friend was quite out there but one thing I know is that he was my friend and I still think of him after all these years (hes gone on to be a published photographer with little time for old uni buddies). I did not want to upset anyone or get into a theological debate. I would like to know what things that you come up against with people. I dont want to debate with you anymore I would rather know how your day has been. Thanks heaps for explaining and your kindness xxxx
I just went to the ex gay ministries website for a look around and I found some amazing articles such as pro-gay theology and some wonderful testimonys. I hope you have the time to have a look yourself. A whole new world. pretty cool. God bless everyone
Mauree said
Mauree the exgay ministries reaches out to ones who does not want to embrace homosexuality. On this web site and in the gay communities this quote what you said and others like it will only cause walls. The biases you share is that homosexuality is bad. That would be like someone sharing that postnatal depression was bad at the peak of your crises. I think one would then in return would feel if postnatal depression is bad and postnatal depression is part who I am, then I must be a bad person. There would be a lot of shame here that would hinder you from being love and to trust others and even to trust in God to help you get over your postnatal depression.
When we reach out to people for Jesus it shouldn’t be from a shame base but again I emphasized it should be out of love.
sorry you are wrong John in all that you said. We are all sinners and are not perfect. I was discussing the effects of PND had on my life how it can relate to those who suffer with the backlash of being gay. Eric said that he suffered self loathing to the point of suicide and I am not wrong about that. I can relate to him with the effects of PND. This all has nothing to do with creating walls. Most of the time you sound rational. When I put out my hand in love like you suggested to me by explaining myself in a loving manner, you get all odd on me. Man is wicked. The Bible states this many times. And that is why the perfect Lord Jesus died for us. I do not know what bible you are reading but how can you say that you are good. Paul talks about this duality in him where he does the things in which he does not want to do. Therfore it is the sin in him that is doing it. Read romans, it talks about no one being good and that we all have murder in our hearts. You are not exempt from this only then can you bow down to God and say forgive me and help me because man can not live apart from God but by his grace we are saved and not by works.
I wish you all the best that life has to offer you. And I will bother the Gay community no more. Turn from your sins and return to God. My prayers are with you. Goodbye from your loving neighbour Maree
maree
I don’t suffer daily. I have no self loathing; in fact I’m pretty darn fond of myself and think I’m a pretty good guy. I am not isolated from friends, family OR church.
Those stale old stereotypes allow others to show pity and confuse it for love. I think you’re a very nice person and you seem motivated by goodness, but maybe it’s time to update your impressions about gay folk.
I don’t need your pity. But I could sure use your help in defeating the political efforts of folks who think I don’t deserve equality. Straight folks make a great difference there.
Please also realize that when you say “we all are sinners”, that comes across as very patronizing and condescending even though you don’t mean it that way. What you mean by that, Maree, is that you are a sinner when you sin and I am a sinner by definition.
Let me give you an illustration. Suppose that I believed very sincerely that being named “Maree” is sin. And suppose I said to you, “Oh, maree, I feel so bad that you are named maree. But Jesus died for all sinners.”
While you might appreciate my care, you’d be frustrated that I think that you are automatically deemed a sinner by consequence of your name. You might think “but being named Maree is NOT a sin. And I don’t need you to feel pity for me”. My good intentions would be for nothing.
And when you say “Turn from your sins” it makes just about as much sense as if I said “turn from your sin of being named maree”.
It becomes offensive.
Not because you believe differently than me, that’s certainly OK. But because you so very callously dismiss my faith. You ignore my witness and mock it. I tell you that I don’t find in the wholeness of Scripture that God condemns gay persons for living in accordance with the way he created them and your response is to say “repent”.
I encourage you to really think about this, Maree. Just like you make room for those who may have a different doctrine than you on baptism or the fruits of the spirit or the authority of church leaders – surely all more important issues when it comes to salvation – allow others to differ with you on issues of sexual orientation.
And if you cannot find room in your heart to accept that those who disagree with you may also be seeking God, then perhaps it’s best to rethink whether you are truly my loving neighbor.
John H,
I appreciate your efforts to guide Maree’s approach.
But I’ll let you in on a little secret. When folks come at us with “you’re a sinner”, we don’t feel shame. We mostly feel annoyance.
It’s pretty much the same feeling you get when you get a knock on your door on Saturday morning, yell out, “I’ll be right there”, throw on a pair of pants and rush over only to find that it’s the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
we are all equally sinners. Look it up guys. No one is exempt. I do pity you for your ignorance. And just like you, jehovahs witnesses created an extra bible for themselves. Dont bother messaging me on this topic anymore as I have given up on giving pearls to swine. Ignorance isnt bliss when it comes from idiots like you. wow I just sinned in anger. Have I proven my point yet. I am not the one putting up walls you are. I am turning away from sin now by not interacting with you any more. See you on judgement day I hope you are ready!
Well, for some of us in the Orthodox tradition, the Virgin Mary, by a special priviledge of God, in anticipation of the merits of Jesus Christ, was exempt from Original Sin at the moment of her conception. So, not all of us can agree with the above quote.
Paul and ‘Arsenokoite’
1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 1:9-10
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders [‘abusers of themselves with mankind’]… will inherit the kingdom of God.
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels… for adulterers and perverts [‘them that defile themselves with mankind’]…
maree, trying to state with certainty a good definition for arsenokoite is not quite so easy as you may think. However, assuming for a moment that it means “homosexual offender,” are you attempting to interpret this reference to mean that a Christian who is gay and does not agree with your interpretation is bound for hell?
maree:
There are writings of several Apostolic Church Fathers (including the writings of St. Paul that are considered Sacred Scripture) who make mention of a vareity of human sexual relations, but none are related to homosexuality in the context of two adult persons in a committed relationship.
St. Paul’s writings deal with pagan worship, sexual lust, and sexual abuse in the form of prostitution and sexual slavery. His writings cannot be interpreted to mean sexual acts between two persons of the same sex who are in a committed relationship.
Epistle to the Corinthians (St. Paul) I;6:9,10 (50-60 AD) – MORALLY SOFT AND MALE CONCUBINES NOT HOMOSEXUALITY
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the morally soft (molles), nor male concubines (masculorum concubitores), nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
Now, keep in mind that when St. Jerome translated the Scriptures from Greek to Latin, he was doing this at a time when the Greek word ” arsenokoite” would have not lost its meaning entirely. St. Jerome translated it as “male concubines” NOT two men in a committed relationship, nor did he use the term “abusers with mankind,” and he certainly could not have used the word “homsexual” or “homosexual acts” because these terms were not available in either Greek or Latin is St. Paul’s nor St. Jerome’s time.
MALE CONCUBINES were slaves who were, (most of the time) against their will, required to be a sexual slave for either their male or female owner (or both).
Epistle to Timothy (St. Paul) I;1:9-11 (66?-100? AD) – MALE CONCUBINES NOT HOMOSEXUALITY
Knowing this, that the law is not made for the just man but for the unjust and disobedient, for the ungodly, and for sinners, for the wicked and defiled, for murderers of fathers, and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for male concubines (masculorum concubitoribus), for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and whatever other thing is contrary to sound doctrine which is according to the Gospel of the glory of the blessed Gods which has been committed to my trust.
Again, MALE CONCUBINES were slaves who were, (most of the time) against their will, required to be a sexual slave for either their male or female owner (or both).
If the word “homosexual” appears in your Bible in either of these passages then you’re holding a version that was written after 1946, since the word “homosexual” didn’t even reach common usage until the late 1800’s. Prior to the 1946 Edition of the Revised Standard Version, the words that “homosexual” has replaced in many modern versions have included “boy prostitutes, effeminate, those who make women of themselves, sissies, catamites, the self-indulgent, sodomites, lewd persons, male prostitutes, and the unchaste.” In What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality, Daniel Helminiak offers that “until the Reformation in the 16th Century and in Roman Catholicism until the 20th Century, the word malakoi was thought to mean “masturbators.” Among the early Greek-speaking Christian theologians who condemned homosexuality the words malakoi (Latin: molles) and arsenokoitai (Latin: masculorum concubitoribus) were never used. John Chrysostom (347-407 A.D.) preached in Greek against homosexuality and like others including Clement of Alexandra, never used these words, not even was the issue of homosexuals mentioned when he preached on these two passages. (Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality, pages 335-353.)
Maree,
Being a Christian, do you still have your identity in being a sinner or a daughter of God?
I also want to know what is your motivation here, what are you trying to achieve?
we are a fallen race, born in sin. Scripture teaches we inherited a corrupt sin nature affecting us physically and spiritually (Ps 51:5; Rom 5:12). We were born spiritually dead (Jn 3:5-6) and physically imperfect (1 Cor 15:1-54). We cannot assume, then, that because something is inborn, it is also God ordained. There are mental, psychological, physical and sexual aspects of our beings that God never intended us to have. “Inborn,” in short, does not mean “divinely sanctioned.”
Jesus referred in the most specific of terms to God’s created intent for human sexuality:
But at the beginning of creation God “made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” (Mk 10:6-9)
In this passage, Jesus had been presented with a hypothetical question: Is divorce lawful? Instead of giving a simple yes or no, He referred to Genesis and, more specifically, to created intent as the standard by which to judge sexual matters. By repeating the Genesis account, He emphasizes four elements of the created intent for marriage and sexual relating: independence was one-a man was to leave his own home to establish his own family with his wife; a “one flesh” sexual union was another; and, of course, monogamy. But the first element of created intent Jesus stressed was the complimentary factor: it was to be a union of male and female, man and wife.
maree, I think you have made the point about your interpretation of scripture on this point, though you never did exactly answer my question. I’m guessing yes?
At any rate, let’s please move on as these scriptural claims really are a dead horse on both sides.
I actually took all my responses from other recently published authors so if you like to give me credit many thanks.
I am going to look at the ex gay ministry website now to learn about the struggles from Christ like minded friends. catch ya another time.
Maree, you didn’t answer my question on your motivation. Are you trying to defend Scriptures or carry out the Love of Jesus Christ. Godly love will never go contrary to Scripture. However, if we are worshiping the written Scripture above Jesus Christ Himself then we will enter into the Pharisee’s Spirit. The Pharisees knew and many of them memorized the Scripture however, when Jesus Christ came Himself, the God of the Scriptures they did not recognize Him.
The Scripture is backed up by a True Loving and Powerful God who is jealous for our worship. He doesn’t want us to worship any part of His creation over Him including His written Scripture. Maree I’ll be praying for you that you will understand this.
We may run into each other again on some of the ex-gay web sites again. I’m not keeping a secret that I am chatting here but some who are in my group that I lead at church may not understand so I’m not exactly volunteering the information.
God Bless You
Your Brother in Christ
John H
Maree when David Roberts said :
I believe he is saying that he knows where you are coming from in your use of scripture. This use is so common.
Web Master, I try all I could to cancel and delete my last posting because the quote was distorted in the time frame, but it wouldn’t let me
maree,
That is an ugly, arrogant, judgmental comment.
Wow! Craziness… I just stopped to congratulate my friend on sharing his testimony… Hmmm…
Thank you Eric for sharing your heart… Love you bro!
🙂