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This is a longstanding (though not particularly successful) behavioral self-regulation strategy. It’s not that surprising that self-punishment really never seems to work as well as self-reward in these contexts.
For a truly amusing take on this strategy (and a few other things as well), see the movie “Sordid Lives.”
Yes, as marcus says, this is a longstanding behavioral strategy used to aide in control of unwanted behaviors. I can agree it not being effective for making change in the long run. The man in the video, however seems to generalize that all therapies aimed at changing sexual orientation are harmful, which is inline with the Truth Wins Out agenda. That is harmful.
Jim,
Since I stopped trying to hide my homosexuality from others and myself, I have not had nearly the bouts of suicidal depression as I had before. I used to be constantly depressed, now when/if I get suicidal, it is of much shorter duration and helped by my partner. Which is more harmful: Lying to myself and others and being suicidally depressed or being truthful to myself and others and finding love and direction?
Granted, the path has not been easy, but being truthful with myself and others has been a great positive.
God bless you, Benton. I am happy that you are not as often suicidal. What happens, though if your “partner” leaves you, or dies? Are you then more suicidal or depressed? Maybe homosexuality (or lying) was/is not your main problem to begin with, but maybe it is something else? I would guess boarderline personality disorder, or something. Many homosexuals are not suicidal/depressed, per say, but most borderlines are.
Jim, I’m guessing you know nothing about psychology or therapy. No responsible therapist would diagnose someone based on a single comment made on a blog.
Jim, I’m guessing you know nothing about psychology or therapy. No responsible therapist would diagnose someone based on a single comment made on a blog.
Chistopher, yes Jim knows about psychology and therapy.
He has a social worker degree from Marywood which certainly gives him some awareness of how to counsel folks (though, of course, not diagnose their disorders).
And he has a mail-order doctorate in psychology which means he’s read about psychology and has even had to take some online tests.
All of which is more than I know about psychology. But, then again, I wouldn’t try diagnosis based on one comment on a blog.
An Independent Clinical Social Worker, which is the level I am at, can dx disorders. This is not to say this is what I do by reading online blogs, though!
Finally, the moral of the story is that if your therapist gives you a rubber band, don’t use it, rather, flick it at him (or her, if that being the case) which could be much more liberating.
Yeah, it’s pretty bizarre that Jim P. would throw out a suggested diagnosis of Borderline (not ‘Boarderline’) Personality Disorder based on Benton’s brief comment. The DSM IV criteria is pretty specific, and Benton’s comment only touched on one of the nine criteria. Five are required for a diagnosis. Mental health professionals are extremely reluctant to share a diagnosis of BPD unless they have worked closely with the patient and know that he/she is highly motivated to recover and have adequate resources. The reason is that the nature of BPD causes its sufferers to either reject the diagnosis outright or (more importantly) become despondent and truly suicidal since so few people actually recover from BPD. So if Jim P. is a credible therapist, why would he make such a suggestion via a blog based on so little information?
The rubber band therapy, according to some I’ve spoken with, was the technique used at Liberty University for same sex attracted people. And it might be true that not everyone who undergoes exgay therapy will be caused harm, but it’s equally true that not everyone who slips and falls on an icy street will get hurt.
But you still don’t want to slip and fall on an icy street, not even on purpose.
I didn’t dx him…I simply said I “guess”. There’s a big difference. Honestly, I don’t know what the hell is wrong (or right) with that dude. -Jim
Jim, I hope you’re more understanding and more thoughtful with your patients in private than you are with people in private. Saying you “guess” he has a borderline personality disorder may not technically be a diagnosis, but, if you insist on calling yourself knowledgeable about psychology and therapy you should probably refrain from making guesses. It damages what little credibility you may have.
So if Jim P. is a credible therapist, why would he make such a suggestion via a blog based on so little information?
Of course I cannot speak with any certainty about Jim’s motivations, but I think we can discern something from the setting in which he made his “guess”:
I would guess boarderline personality disorder
immediately followed:
Maybe homosexuality (or lying) was/is not your main problem to begin with, but maybe it is something else?
and was in response to
Which is more harmful: Lying to myself and others and being suicidally depressed or being truthful to myself and others and finding love and direction?
Now I can’t speak for what was going on in Jim’s head, but I can “guess”. And my “guess” would be that Jim did not want to address Benton’s assertion that he is healthier, happier and more stable now that he has ceased efforts to be or appear heterosexual.
And so he throws out “borderline personality disorder” to achieve two goals. First this provides some alternate explanation for Benton’s depression other than the one Benton offered. And second, it seeks to discredit Benton by suggesting that he’s mentally unstable.
I’m not surprised that Jim is backpeddling. I think I can state with confidence that if an accrediting board of any mental health institution or agency were to find that a counselor of any sort were using accusations of BPD as a tool to discredit another person’s argument, this would be adequate reason for immediate loss of license.
But remember, like Jim, I am only making a “guess”.
Yup, sounds like a good guess to me, Timothy. Anything to deny the possiblity that living openly and honestly promotes mental health for lgbt persons.
I think I can state with confidence that if an accrediting board of any mental health institution or agency were to find that a counselor of any sort were using accusations of BPD as a tool to discredit another person’s argument, this would be adequate reason for immediate loss of license.
I’ve had to learn much more than I’d ever want to know about BPD due to a close family member who suffers from this disorder. After several years, the family member STILL doesn’t know of the diagnosis due to the potential repercussions for that person. Therapuetic interventions continue, but naming the disorder has been considered too risky.
Throwing that possible diagnosis out to a stranger on EXW for whatever reason is mind-boggling behavior for a mental health professional.
I never guess. It is a shocking habit – destructive to the logical faculty.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
I’ve never felt suicidal, but when I was trying to hide my homosexuality from others and myself – which is many years ago now – I used to drink too much. From the day that I came out that problem ceased. I didn’t even have to make an effort to discipline myself: I simply no longer felt the need.
Exgay leaders or “therapists” always assume that homosexuality itself is a disorder that needs to be “repaired.” So, they will NEVER accept the notion that an openly, honest, out and proud gay person is anything but deluded or dishonest or mentally ill in some way. That’s why they are incapable, as I stated in another thread, of interacting with out, spiritually centered, mentally stable and emotionally connected, happy gay persons. It threatens their worldview. According to their religious belief systems, we don’t exist. And since their religious belief systems trump everything else, they find ways to dismiss our stories and/or pretend we aren’t real.
Oddly enough, the only people ever rounded up in those cop stings around bathrooms and other public places where gay sex happens are closeted, Christian, married “non-gays” or “ex-gays.”
Out, proud, openly gay people don’t go to those places. Not in the same numbers that the closeted Christians in denial do. We don’t have to. We’re not pretending to be straight.
Maybe he is healthier, happier and more stable now that he has ceased efforts to be or appear heterosexual. Only he can be the judge of that. As for BPD, only someone in a true clinical relationship with him could make that call. I don’t even know if he even needs clinical attention, first of all, at any rate. (However, suicidality needs immediate attention and intervention). My argument was that it is not always the homosexuality for which people get symptoms of depression and suicidality over. I would look out for personality issues. That’s all. I do not consider Benton BPD’ed based on his blog entry, but admit it looks accusatory and this being the case, I apologize. I am sorry Benton. I personally can understand how bad it feels to be labeled and tagged: I am occasionally, called, a hater, bigot, homophobe, mother f’er, and idiot. It does not feel good.
I personally can understand how bad it feels to be labeled and tagged: I am occasionally, called, a hater, bigot, homophobe, mother f’er, and idiot. It does not feel good.
Jim,
I’m glad you can appreciate that it doesn’t feel good to be labeled and tagged, but I hope you also realize that, in your follow-up statements to your original post labeling someone as potentially having a “borderline personality disorder” you attempted to use your credentials as a therapist and your background in psychology to justify your statement. While you’ve now admitted that
As for BPD, only someone in a true clinical relationship with him could make that call
you seem unwilling to admit that you made a mistake in making that suggestion in the first place, instead trying to justify it by saying it was just a “guess”. No one gets a certification that allows them to declare anyone else a hater, bigot, homophobe, mother f’er, or idiot, but there are ethical and legal implications to a therapist’s diagnosis, even if it is just a “guess”. Instead of trying to make yourself a martyr you might find people are more sympathetic if you admit, honestly, that your original assertion was ill-informed, unethical, and improper behavior for someone who claims to be a therapist.
Christopher, even an ignorant idiot knows one can not dx over a public blog for God’s sake. Why don’t you calm down? How many times do people say, “Oh, he has ADD or “She has OCD”? And, BTW, I am not trying to make myself out to be a “martyr” here. I don’t claim to be in a clinical role on this blog. In fact, it is the XGW’ers who announce me as being a therapist, not me! They are the ones’ throwing my professional life out there. I do have a personal life and personal opinions and yes, assumptions. I have First Amendment rights, just like you do. Why don’t you admit your real goal to attempt to silence, box, threaten, marginalize, and shame people who are professionals and have personal opinions? It is my judgement that no matter what we say or do, folks like you who disagree with our beliefs, will do anything to attempt to discredit us. You want nothing more than to stop us from the work we do with people who have unwanted same sex attractions. That’s the bottom line.
It is my judgement that no matter what we say or do, folks like you who disagree with our beliefs, will do anything to attempt to discredit us. You want nothing more than to stop us from the work with do with people who have unwanted same sex attractions. That’s the bottom line.
No, it’s not although the martyr in you enjoys thinking that. No one here has any objection to a person going to an exgay therapist if that’s consistent with their personal religion or lifestyle choice.
What we object to is the automatic assumption by the people on your side that ALL gay people need to get “fixed” and that you have to wage a war against us to make all of us as uncomfortable as possible in order to get your way.
I support any exgay who wants to focus on HIMSELF. What we object to is the cute little war against the rest of us that you so casually think is the “right thing to do.”
Darling, if you left us alone, we would leave you alone.
Seriously. If so many ex-gay “therapists” didn’t go on the offensive to make gays – those who ARE comfortable with themselves and DO want their same sex attractions (because it’s natural to them) and ARE happy with their lives – miserable and ashamed for who and what they are, we wouldn’t be so angry.
My therapist didn’t go on the offensive to try to diagnose me with false conditions so that he could put me on medication and make money from additional therapy. In fact, he would lose his license if he did that.
yet when ex-gay “therapists” try to get homosexuality listed as a mental disorder and convince people that they have all these problems (whether they’re aware of them or not!) that are causing their homosexuality, they are lauded and their practices GROW. That is so backward, unprofessional, and creepy.
Jim,
Perhaps you should also calm down and consider some of your own statements. You apologize for suggesting (or “guessing” that someone had a borderline personality disorder, then add,
I don’t know what the hell is wrong (or right) with that dude
, but, when you’re called on your accusations, you apologize then add,
I am occasionally, called, a hater, bigot, homophobe, mother f’er, and idiot
. You’re trying to draw attention away from your own mistake by claiming you yourself have suffered the same injury you’re inflicting on others.
I apologize for mistakenly calling you a therapist. You say,
An Independent Clinical Social Worker, which is the level I am at, can dx disorders.
If you can diagnose disorders then surely you realize doing so, even making a “guess”, should not be done lightly. There are ramifications to diagnoses.
Finally, please don’t accuse me of trying to silence you. I haven’t asked you to be quiet. I’m simply suggesting that if you’re going to go around guessing that someone has a borderline personality disorder because you don’t like what they have to say you should consider the impact of that guess, especially when it’s coming from someone who, as you do, has the ability to diagnose disorders. I’m merely suggesting that, if you really can diagnose disorders, you shouldn’t abuse that privelege.
Jim, I only have an MA in psychology and know that you DO NOT throw around the dx of BPD. That is a biggie. I am offended that you would even do that.
I will admit that I do suffer with depression and am being treated for it, but that is beside the point. The point is: A major chunk of the depression I have felt is in response to societal pressures propegated by people like yourself.
I have lost my chruch because of rules dealing with gay pastors. I have lost my home due to a lack of employment. I have creditors calling due to lack of finances since I can only find a minimum wage, part time job.
None of this has anything to do with my ability to be a pastor. I left because of a rule in the denomination. I can’t get another call until I fulfill the requirments of my current denomination.
If my partner were to die, I would mourn. But I would not be crushed. That can happen to us all.
In all, since coming out, I have lost my world but gained my life. Before I left, my congregation noticed that I was “more alive than ever.” The unfortunate thing is that the thing that caused me to be “more alive” is the thing that the world used to knock me down. My problem is not with being gay, it is with the way the world decides to judge me for being gay.
And please, in the future, be careful of tossing around diagnoses, that is very irresponsible. If you claim to be a professional, then what you say, even on a blog, is given more weight.
Yes, Christopher I will have to admit you are right in saying one should not accuse one of a disorder because he doesn’t like what that person has to say. In this case, I was trying to help Benton understand that maybe he needed treatment for something else, not nec. homosexuality. It was put rudely I will admit and I said I was sorry to him before. I said, “I would guess boarderline [sic] personality disorder, or something.” But then said honestly, I don’t know. Again, it was said rudely (e.g. “I don’t know what the hell is wrong (right) with that dude”). [Add this to the list of my infractions]. But, honestly I don’t know. In the final analysis, I feel he is being forthright and honest and I respect him for that.
My argument was that it is not always the homosexuality for which people get symptoms of depression and suicidality over.
Yes, I agree with you. Homosexuality, in and of itself, is not often the cause of depression or suicidality. However, the treatment by other parties of the gay person can lead to these issues.
It has long been known that if a person fears for their future or questions their security, that can lead to depression.
If a gay person dreads being “discovered” because that can result in loss of employment or housing; if a gay person worries about family abandonment; if a gay person fears rejection and humiliation from their place of worship; if a gay person fears physical violence; and then if a gay person hears policians, ex-gay ministers, anti-gay activists and others all seeking to keep those threats over their head, the pressures can mount.
To suggest that this is NOT likely to be the source of anxiety but rather that some medical mental condition is instead seems to me to fly in the face of logic, study, and human decency.
I am in agreement with Timothy. I never did anything in my congregation to cause me to be ousted. But because I found a person to spend my time with, I am now highly underemployed.
Jim, what you take for granted, having a home and family, becomes a possible source of ridicule and attack for me. In coming to grips with my homosexuality, I have been able to channel the energy that was used for denial into areas of creativity.
Staying in denial left me feeling like a shell. It left me feeling like I was unloved by God because God was not answering my prayers. I was being told to just “pray about it” but that wasn’t working.
I spent 40 years pretending to be something I wasn’t. Now I am living what I am and although parts of my life are going down the tubes, I can still truly smile and laugh.
Timothy and Benton, I HEAR you, yes, I do. BUT, we can not prove, as Benton has alluded to, that a major chunk of his depression was in response to societal pressures propegated by people like me. I am not responsible for his depression, nor anyone elses’. That is in the ego of the individual, not in external forces. Dr Albert Ellis, from New York, spent his career helping people understand this and it has helped many. Finally, no one has found the cause of true clinical chemical depression; it’s cause is unknown, other than the facts that serotonin plays a major role.
The man in the video, however seems to generalize that all therapies aimed at changing sexual orientation are harmful, which is inline with the Truth Wins Out agenda. That is harmful.
This is an issue that I’ve criticized Warren about before – this allegation that it is “harmful” to make blanket criticisms regarding “conversion” therapies. Therapies aimed at changing sexual orientation are, by and large, based on disproven psychological theories, and have failed to establish either effectiveness or efficacy in the peer-reviewed research literature. What is this imagined harm that will befall gays and lesbians learning that these therapies are unlikely to work? There are a number of benfits attested to this knowledge by members of this site. There are a number of widely researched intervention strategies intended to assist individuals in living lives more in line with personal values – Warren has mentioned Acceptance and Commitment Therapy previously, which is certainly promising – but the focus of these therapies is on working with and accepting the reality of this present moment. A moment that often includes immutable traits, like being gay or lesbian. Persons wishing to find a way of living that allow them to reconcile their religious convictions and their sexual orientation are better served through an honest appraisal and approach to treatment, not one that begins on the terribly wrong foot of disinformation and pseudoscience. Where is the harm?
Additionally, the question of whether there are differences in outcomes based on the source of treatment intended to alter sexual orientation (e.g., individual psychotherapy, group intervention, religious-based communities or counseling) is an empirical one, and to date there is no reason to suppose that any one modality outperforms the rest – or performs at all, for that matter! The burden is rightly on ex-gay ministries and treatment groups to demonstrate why they should not be generalized among.
Hey Benton – I completely relate to your posts. Had to leave a church I loved and didn’t know if I’d ever pastor again. It eventually happened, though, and I’m grateful. I’m ‘underemployed’ in some sense, but the freedom of being out and honest is worth it. Hang in there!!
This is a longstanding (though not particularly successful) behavioral self-regulation strategy. It’s not that surprising that self-punishment really never seems to work as well as self-reward in these contexts.
For a truly amusing take on this strategy (and a few other things as well), see the movie “Sordid Lives.”
I’ve used that in a few contexts–when I wanted high-calorie treats or interrupted, for instance. Doesn’t help.
Yes, as marcus says, this is a longstanding behavioral strategy used to aide in control of unwanted behaviors. I can agree it not being effective for making change in the long run. The man in the video, however seems to generalize that all therapies aimed at changing sexual orientation are harmful, which is inline with the Truth Wins Out agenda. That is harmful.
Jim,
Since I stopped trying to hide my homosexuality from others and myself, I have not had nearly the bouts of suicidal depression as I had before. I used to be constantly depressed, now when/if I get suicidal, it is of much shorter duration and helped by my partner. Which is more harmful: Lying to myself and others and being suicidally depressed or being truthful to myself and others and finding love and direction?
Granted, the path has not been easy, but being truthful with myself and others has been a great positive.
God bless you, Benton. I am happy that you are not as often suicidal. What happens, though if your “partner” leaves you, or dies? Are you then more suicidal or depressed? Maybe homosexuality (or lying) was/is not your main problem to begin with, but maybe it is something else? I would guess boarderline personality disorder, or something. Many homosexuals are not suicidal/depressed, per say, but most borderlines are.
Jim, I’m guessing you know nothing about psychology or therapy. No responsible therapist would diagnose someone based on a single comment made on a blog.
Christopher,
I didn’t dx him…I simply said I “guess”. There’s a big difference. Honestly, I don’t know what the hell is wrong (or right) with that dude. -Jim
Jim, I’m guessing you know nothing about psychology or therapy. No responsible therapist would diagnose someone based on a single comment made on a blog.
Chistopher, yes Jim knows about psychology and therapy.
He has a social worker degree from Marywood which certainly gives him some awareness of how to counsel folks (though, of course, not diagnose their disorders).
And he has a mail-order doctorate in psychology which means he’s read about psychology and has even had to take some online tests.
All of which is more than I know about psychology. But, then again, I wouldn’t try diagnosis based on one comment on a blog.
Timothy,
An Independent Clinical Social Worker, which is the level I am at, can dx disorders. This is not to say this is what I do by reading online blogs, though!
Finally, the moral of the story is that if your therapist gives you a rubber band, don’t use it, rather, flick it at him (or her, if that being the case) which could be much more liberating.
Yeah, it’s pretty bizarre that Jim P. would throw out a suggested diagnosis of Borderline (not ‘Boarderline’) Personality Disorder based on Benton’s brief comment. The DSM IV criteria is pretty specific, and Benton’s comment only touched on one of the nine criteria. Five are required for a diagnosis. Mental health professionals are extremely reluctant to share a diagnosis of BPD unless they have worked closely with the patient and know that he/she is highly motivated to recover and have adequate resources. The reason is that the nature of BPD causes its sufferers to either reject the diagnosis outright or (more importantly) become despondent and truly suicidal since so few people actually recover from BPD. So if Jim P. is a credible therapist, why would he make such a suggestion via a blog based on so little information?
The rubber band therapy, according to some I’ve spoken with, was the technique used at Liberty University for same sex attracted people. And it might be true that not everyone who undergoes exgay therapy will be caused harm, but it’s equally true that not everyone who slips and falls on an icy street will get hurt.
But you still don’t want to slip and fall on an icy street, not even on purpose.
Jim, I hope you’re more understanding and more thoughtful with your patients in private than you are with people in private. Saying you “guess” he has a borderline personality disorder may not technically be a diagnosis, but, if you insist on calling yourself knowledgeable about psychology and therapy you should probably refrain from making guesses. It damages what little credibility you may have.
Rick,
Of course I cannot speak with any certainty about Jim’s motivations, but I think we can discern something from the setting in which he made his “guess”:
immediately followed:
and was in response to
Now I can’t speak for what was going on in Jim’s head, but I can “guess”. And my “guess” would be that Jim did not want to address Benton’s assertion that he is healthier, happier and more stable now that he has ceased efforts to be or appear heterosexual.
And so he throws out “borderline personality disorder” to achieve two goals. First this provides some alternate explanation for Benton’s depression other than the one Benton offered. And second, it seeks to discredit Benton by suggesting that he’s mentally unstable.
I’m not surprised that Jim is backpeddling. I think I can state with confidence that if an accrediting board of any mental health institution or agency were to find that a counselor of any sort were using accusations of BPD as a tool to discredit another person’s argument, this would be adequate reason for immediate loss of license.
But remember, like Jim, I am only making a “guess”.
Yup, sounds like a good guess to me, Timothy. Anything to deny the possiblity that living openly and honestly promotes mental health for lgbt persons.
I’ve had to learn much more than I’d ever want to know about BPD due to a close family member who suffers from this disorder. After several years, the family member STILL doesn’t know of the diagnosis due to the potential repercussions for that person. Therapuetic interventions continue, but naming the disorder has been considered too risky.
Throwing that possible diagnosis out to a stranger on EXW for whatever reason is mind-boggling behavior for a mental health professional.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
I’ve never felt suicidal, but when I was trying to hide my homosexuality from others and myself – which is many years ago now – I used to drink too much. From the day that I came out that problem ceased. I didn’t even have to make an effort to discipline myself: I simply no longer felt the need.
Exgay leaders or “therapists” always assume that homosexuality itself is a disorder that needs to be “repaired.” So, they will NEVER accept the notion that an openly, honest, out and proud gay person is anything but deluded or dishonest or mentally ill in some way. That’s why they are incapable, as I stated in another thread, of interacting with out, spiritually centered, mentally stable and emotionally connected, happy gay persons. It threatens their worldview. According to their religious belief systems, we don’t exist. And since their religious belief systems trump everything else, they find ways to dismiss our stories and/or pretend we aren’t real.
Oddly enough, the only people ever rounded up in those cop stings around bathrooms and other public places where gay sex happens are closeted, Christian, married “non-gays” or “ex-gays.”
Out, proud, openly gay people don’t go to those places. Not in the same numbers that the closeted Christians in denial do. We don’t have to. We’re not pretending to be straight.
Timothy et al,
Maybe he is healthier, happier and more stable now that he has ceased efforts to be or appear heterosexual. Only he can be the judge of that. As for BPD, only someone in a true clinical relationship with him could make that call. I don’t even know if he even needs clinical attention, first of all, at any rate. (However, suicidality needs immediate attention and intervention). My argument was that it is not always the homosexuality for which people get symptoms of depression and suicidality over. I would look out for personality issues. That’s all. I do not consider Benton BPD’ed based on his blog entry, but admit it looks accusatory and this being the case, I apologize. I am sorry Benton. I personally can understand how bad it feels to be labeled and tagged: I am occasionally, called, a hater, bigot, homophobe, mother f’er, and idiot. It does not feel good.
Jim,
I’m glad you can appreciate that it doesn’t feel good to be labeled and tagged, but I hope you also realize that, in your follow-up statements to your original post labeling someone as potentially having a “borderline personality disorder” you attempted to use your credentials as a therapist and your background in psychology to justify your statement. While you’ve now admitted that
you seem unwilling to admit that you made a mistake in making that suggestion in the first place, instead trying to justify it by saying it was just a “guess”. No one gets a certification that allows them to declare anyone else a hater, bigot, homophobe, mother f’er, or idiot, but there are ethical and legal implications to a therapist’s diagnosis, even if it is just a “guess”. Instead of trying to make yourself a martyr you might find people are more sympathetic if you admit, honestly, that your original assertion was ill-informed, unethical, and improper behavior for someone who claims to be a therapist.
Christopher, even an ignorant idiot knows one can not dx over a public blog for God’s sake. Why don’t you calm down? How many times do people say, “Oh, he has ADD or “She has OCD”? And, BTW, I am not trying to make myself out to be a “martyr” here. I don’t claim to be in a clinical role on this blog. In fact, it is the XGW’ers who announce me as being a therapist, not me! They are the ones’ throwing my professional life out there. I do have a personal life and personal opinions and yes, assumptions. I have First Amendment rights, just like you do. Why don’t you admit your real goal to attempt to silence, box, threaten, marginalize, and shame people who are professionals and have personal opinions? It is my judgement that no matter what we say or do, folks like you who disagree with our beliefs, will do anything to attempt to discredit us. You want nothing more than to stop us from the work we do with people who have unwanted same sex attractions. That’s the bottom line.
No, it’s not although the martyr in you enjoys thinking that. No one here has any objection to a person going to an exgay therapist if that’s consistent with their personal religion or lifestyle choice.
What we object to is the automatic assumption by the people on your side that ALL gay people need to get “fixed” and that you have to wage a war against us to make all of us as uncomfortable as possible in order to get your way.
I support any exgay who wants to focus on HIMSELF. What we object to is the cute little war against the rest of us that you so casually think is the “right thing to do.”
Darling, if you left us alone, we would leave you alone.
Liar liar, legs clothes on fire.
Seriously. If so many ex-gay “therapists” didn’t go on the offensive to make gays – those who ARE comfortable with themselves and DO want their same sex attractions (because it’s natural to them) and ARE happy with their lives – miserable and ashamed for who and what they are, we wouldn’t be so angry.
My therapist didn’t go on the offensive to try to diagnose me with false conditions so that he could put me on medication and make money from additional therapy. In fact, he would lose his license if he did that.
yet when ex-gay “therapists” try to get homosexuality listed as a mental disorder and convince people that they have all these problems (whether they’re aware of them or not!) that are causing their homosexuality, they are lauded and their practices GROW. That is so backward, unprofessional, and creepy.
Jim,
Perhaps you should also calm down and consider some of your own statements. You apologize for suggesting (or “guessing” that someone had a borderline personality disorder, then add,
, but, when you’re called on your accusations, you apologize then add,
. You’re trying to draw attention away from your own mistake by claiming you yourself have suffered the same injury you’re inflicting on others.
I apologize for mistakenly calling you a therapist. You say,
If you can diagnose disorders then surely you realize doing so, even making a “guess”, should not be done lightly. There are ramifications to diagnoses.
Finally, please don’t accuse me of trying to silence you. I haven’t asked you to be quiet. I’m simply suggesting that if you’re going to go around guessing that someone has a borderline personality disorder because you don’t like what they have to say you should consider the impact of that guess, especially when it’s coming from someone who, as you do, has the ability to diagnose disorders. I’m merely suggesting that, if you really can diagnose disorders, you shouldn’t abuse that privelege.
I’ve been gone for a while, sorry.
Jim, I only have an MA in psychology and know that you DO NOT throw around the dx of BPD. That is a biggie. I am offended that you would even do that.
I will admit that I do suffer with depression and am being treated for it, but that is beside the point. The point is: A major chunk of the depression I have felt is in response to societal pressures propegated by people like yourself.
I have lost my chruch because of rules dealing with gay pastors. I have lost my home due to a lack of employment. I have creditors calling due to lack of finances since I can only find a minimum wage, part time job.
None of this has anything to do with my ability to be a pastor. I left because of a rule in the denomination. I can’t get another call until I fulfill the requirments of my current denomination.
If my partner were to die, I would mourn. But I would not be crushed. That can happen to us all.
In all, since coming out, I have lost my world but gained my life. Before I left, my congregation noticed that I was “more alive than ever.” The unfortunate thing is that the thing that caused me to be “more alive” is the thing that the world used to knock me down. My problem is not with being gay, it is with the way the world decides to judge me for being gay.
And please, in the future, be careful of tossing around diagnoses, that is very irresponsible. If you claim to be a professional, then what you say, even on a blog, is given more weight.
Yes, Christopher I will have to admit you are right in saying one should not accuse one of a disorder because he doesn’t like what that person has to say. In this case, I was trying to help Benton understand that maybe he needed treatment for something else, not nec. homosexuality. It was put rudely I will admit and I said I was sorry to him before. I said, “I would guess boarderline [sic] personality disorder, or something.” But then said honestly, I don’t know. Again, it was said rudely (e.g. “I don’t know what the hell is wrong (right) with that dude”). [Add this to the list of my infractions]. But, honestly I don’t know. In the final analysis, I feel he is being forthright and honest and I respect him for that.
Jim
Yes, I agree with you. Homosexuality, in and of itself, is not often the cause of depression or suicidality. However, the treatment by other parties of the gay person can lead to these issues.
It has long been known that if a person fears for their future or questions their security, that can lead to depression.
If a gay person dreads being “discovered” because that can result in loss of employment or housing; if a gay person worries about family abandonment; if a gay person fears rejection and humiliation from their place of worship; if a gay person fears physical violence; and then if a gay person hears policians, ex-gay ministers, anti-gay activists and others all seeking to keep those threats over their head, the pressures can mount.
To suggest that this is NOT likely to be the source of anxiety but rather that some medical mental condition is instead seems to me to fly in the face of logic, study, and human decency.
I am in agreement with Timothy. I never did anything in my congregation to cause me to be ousted. But because I found a person to spend my time with, I am now highly underemployed.
Jim, what you take for granted, having a home and family, becomes a possible source of ridicule and attack for me. In coming to grips with my homosexuality, I have been able to channel the energy that was used for denial into areas of creativity.
Staying in denial left me feeling like a shell. It left me feeling like I was unloved by God because God was not answering my prayers. I was being told to just “pray about it” but that wasn’t working.
I spent 40 years pretending to be something I wasn’t. Now I am living what I am and although parts of my life are going down the tubes, I can still truly smile and laugh.
Benton,
At the risk of being all churchy… can I suggest that perhaps God answered your prayers… just not the way you thought He would
Timothy and Benton, I HEAR you, yes, I do. BUT, we can not prove, as Benton has alluded to, that a major chunk of his depression was in response to societal pressures propegated by people like me. I am not responsible for his depression, nor anyone elses’. That is in the ego of the individual, not in external forces. Dr Albert Ellis, from New York, spent his career helping people understand this and it has helped many. Finally, no one has found the cause of true clinical chemical depression; it’s cause is unknown, other than the facts that serotonin plays a major role.
This is an issue that I’ve criticized Warren about before – this allegation that it is “harmful” to make blanket criticisms regarding “conversion” therapies. Therapies aimed at changing sexual orientation are, by and large, based on disproven psychological theories, and have failed to establish either effectiveness or efficacy in the peer-reviewed research literature. What is this imagined harm that will befall gays and lesbians learning that these therapies are unlikely to work? There are a number of benfits attested to this knowledge by members of this site. There are a number of widely researched intervention strategies intended to assist individuals in living lives more in line with personal values – Warren has mentioned Acceptance and Commitment Therapy previously, which is certainly promising – but the focus of these therapies is on working with and accepting the reality of this present moment. A moment that often includes immutable traits, like being gay or lesbian. Persons wishing to find a way of living that allow them to reconcile their religious convictions and their sexual orientation are better served through an honest appraisal and approach to treatment, not one that begins on the terribly wrong foot of disinformation and pseudoscience. Where is the harm?
Additionally, the question of whether there are differences in outcomes based on the source of treatment intended to alter sexual orientation (e.g., individual psychotherapy, group intervention, religious-based communities or counseling) is an empirical one, and to date there is no reason to suppose that any one modality outperforms the rest – or performs at all, for that matter! The burden is rightly on ex-gay ministries and treatment groups to demonstrate why they should not be generalized among.
Hey Benton – I completely relate to your posts. Had to leave a church I loved and didn’t know if I’d ever pastor again. It eventually happened, though, and I’m grateful. I’m ‘underemployed’ in some sense, but the freedom of being out and honest is worth it. Hang in there!!