Who says ex-gays don’t have a sense of humor?
Just a warning: the above clip will probably make you laugh even though it is at the expense of the “ex-gay” movement.
Randy Thomas, vice president of Exodus International, is rightly embarrassed by Richard Cohen’s appearance on the Daily Show:
The guy on the video announces Richard as the foremost expert on “healing the gay” or something like that. Richard is not the foremost of anything except making a spectacle of himself and completely misrepresenting the larger “ex-gay” movement. He is not a part of Exodus and apparently not willing to take our private feedback and accountability to heart.
I have no idea why Richard Cohen does these things. He’s clearly an embarrassment to the “ex-gay” movement. (And by the way, I’ve refrianed from using scare quotes around the term “ex-gay” because I don’t want to offend. Now that Exodus officials are doing it, does that mean I should resume the practice? Okay, never mind. I’ll leave that for another time. Back to Cohen…)
Right. I have no idea why Richard Cohen does these things. (I said that already!) But I do think that one of the major issues that need to be addressed is the lack of a clear and frank description of what the ex-gay movement — with or without quotes — is all about. How can they expect anyone else to find their way through the confusion when ex-gay groups themselves decline to clarify things for themselves?
Is it therapy or is it ministry? Is it faith that brings “change” or is it psychology? And if there is a psychological component, how is anybody to know that Cohen is a charlatan and someone else isn’t? After all, there are no standards to guide anyone on this. There’s just Exodus’ word to go on, unless you would rather believe NARTH or Cohen. Or the guy’s voice on the subliminal therapy tape from The Daily Show.
As long as ex-gay groups continue to be unclear about what they do and how they do it, as long as they continue to talk around gays and lesbians instead of speaking plainly using ordinary language that everyone can understand, this confusion is likely to continue.
Maybe a good starting point would be to advise me on whether I should put “ex-gay” in quotes or not.
All the ex-gay’s organization’s are doing it for the money…they will deny that they are but they make a butt load of money. I see it as being a theif. Promoting something that doesn’t work but still asking and getting the money. Just a side note as well…the New Testament alone has 200,000+ errors in it…how can you believe in something with that many errors?
That tape was hiliarious, and I am going to assume it is real. I had a therapist who tried hypnosis on me, and it was similiar to that. He gave me a tape almost indentical (but this was like 17 years ago, so I don’t know if I have it anymore).
Oh it’s real. Check out my comment here.
I thought it was funny, too. I saw the show when it aired. I have been following the ex-gay ministry movement since an article about Exodus International first appeared in the Assemblies of God’s weekly magazine, “The Pentecostal Evangel,” in the 1970s. Andy Comiskey, founder of Desert Streams Ministry (which is affiliated with Exodus) admitted “Charisma Magazine” that he said to a gay man, “After being married for 20 years to a woman and having grown children, I still experience sexual attractions toward men.” I have a copy of the magazine; but, it is in a storeroom.
Jim — I’d prefer “ex”gay.
But it’s a little too hard to read, and a little too accurate in a Zen way.
More amazing (not) is the fact that these Exodus people can live cheek to jowl with Richard Cohen for all these years… and only notice he’s a complete fruitcake after some bad media publicity.
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In a more serious vein:
Joe, I know it’s asking a lot (because it’s such pain to do it!) but could you consider scanning any of these old articles you might have and sending them through to David Roberts?
I “think” the copywrite, as such, expires after 17 years and those types of articles would be a mighty good library resource here. Very few are online at the moment, and I can attest to how much bother one has to go to finding “Christian Women’s Monthly” from before 1990 or so.
And sorry David — should have asked you first. Could this type of thing be a useful addition to the XGW site? Sadly it’s more work for you, I know 🙂
Great minds… I emailed Joe and asked the same thing right after he posted grantdale 🙂
He’s going to see what he can do.
Exodus, Desert Stream, Living Waters, Love Won Out (youth) Love In Action…these are all ministries, right?
And NARTH seems to be only slightly more clinical, but their work, and that of Jeffrey Satinover are based in their religious beliefs. Correct?
So, for the most part, a person can claim that their religious belief, gives them license enough to intervene and counsel on homosexuality.
These are people that make no moral differentiation from adultery and murder.
Also they have little differentiation from EACH OTHER. So a lay person won’t know or be aware…and frankly how do their techniques differ that vastly, to make and informed decision from the beginning.
The way Richard Cohen portrays himself, as do Chambers and Thomas….or Stephen Bennett-being formerly gay is all the license they have.
And results are not a part of their records or sample groups.
These are men, in many ways, who pretty much look like they have a very homogenous demographic to work with.
And it’s a good bet, when they were gay, their social dealings were much, much narrower.
Leaving a critically thinking person to question how effective they could be with so little experience as gay OR straights….or OTHER ex gay groups…or their OWN MISSION statement.
The administration of their road show would make one wonder how much time they really have left to be so hands on with their own practices.
It’s the vulnerablity of the gay person that’s a HUGE concern, because religious abuse can go on with impunity, diguised as religious discipline and cure.
I’d say this is more a religious PALLIATIVE. A mechanism to make the subject and the family members engaged in taking them to this ministration, be lulled into a comfort zone.
These groups ARE exploitive, and they have NO unbiased, non stereotyping to their applications.
Too much of what they rely on is fear, ignorance and prejudice to practice their ministration.
And even though, that’s pretty much what so many religions direct their followers to do, exact punishment or retribution.
Now, gay people are exclusively the targets for this treatment.
Where a cure isn’t possible, an anesthetic is supposed to suffice, but they aren’t calling it that.
And they aren’t saying what happens when their subject finally wakes up.
And in the meantime, making someone wish they could sleepwalk, rather than face their realities is something Exodus and the others aren’t skilled in.
The art of reality isn’t at all part of their mission statement.
Am I getting that much right?
With so many different kinds of ex gay people out there, and no one able to qualify or disqualify any of them, it’s scary to think that ‘trust us’, is enough to separate people from their money and hurt gay people, especially gay kids…oh too easily.
As a straight person, what this tells me, is straight people don’t now know shit about gay people, don’t want to and take every opportunity and stick to whatever another straight person WHO IS JUST AS IGNORANT has to say.
But resist all the information possible to know what’s positive, truthful and honest….even from ex gays who treat their dysfunctional gay life as a license to validate prejudice.
They don’t like us to say that’s what they are doing.
But cha ah…Blanche…ya ah.
Just a slightly late observation, but I found a comment on Mr. Thomas’ site by “Stephen Black,” apparently a member (or possibly the leader) of “First Stone Ministries“to be rather instructive as to the mindset ex-gays develop towards gays.
According to Mr. Black:
“I am so tired of the ridiculous arguments put forth by people like Wayne Besen. (I agree with you, one does not have to look too far to understand that Wayne is a mocker and a very mean spirited person…). They – the gay activists, just don’t get IT, and they will not get IT(change) without their eyes being opened; sad, but true. However, we are to proclaim it for those who will hear.
The issue of change for most people in our ministries is IT – change – IS about a relationship of FAITH in a God whom no one has physically seen, but they KNOW He exists! Our rights to have faith in God are constitutionally protected! THANK GOD! He does exist and He changes hearts and lives!”
Notice that for Mr. Black the issue is that people who are happily and unashamedly gay “don’t get it” and that for ex-gays it is necessarily about faith, and in fact a basic belief in God. Mr. Black seems to be under the mistaken assumption that gays do not change because they do not believe in God and wish to make every ex-gay not believe in God. For him its fundamentally about religion, not about anything else.
“Change – a different direction in life; turning or the biblical word is repent by BELIEVING… Why is it so difficult and threatening to the gay community? Could it be that there really is a God and they know it? Could it be that there really is only a few, a minority, who will actually follow Christ fully and they hate it?”
Again, more emphasis on a strong moral faith, a rather strong admonition to a non-believing Christian but mostly useless to a self identified Christian. It might even be considered insulting someone who identifies as Christian but doesn’t see their sexuality as a bar to that faith.
If they only knew who their father was in believing the lie. It is written! It has been foretold! Where? In the Bible! AND OF COURSE there are going to be people who fall back into sin and brokenness! If they only understood the beauty of the Cross of Jesus Christ, but alas that is revealed divinely as well. You have to want it. Could it be that it is very threatening in their brokenness and living in an immoral life as described by the Holy Scriptures? It only takes a 5th grade education to read it in black and white; the Scriptures are CLEAR concerning a condemnation of living in a sinful lifestyle of any kind of sexual impurity.
Again, this is more of the same, a screed against sexual “brokenness.” Perhaps most interesting to me is the “you have to want it” comment. How exactly is this rant supposed to reach Christian gays that do not believe as Mr. Black does? How is it supposed to reach non-theistic gays or gays that profess different faiths? As Mr. Black makes crystal clear he’s trying to evangelize but I wonder to which group he’s speaking?
It seems clear that his language is couched in base assumptions about the nature of Christ as well as the nature of the gay community. Because he cannot be unaware that there is a schismatic disagreement within the gay and Christian communities on the nature of God and the origins of sexuality I have to assume he’s not speaking to us. I think he’s speaking to his base, I think he’s throwing red meat to ex-gays, trying to appeal to people who already believe as he does.
“Exodus ministries are about believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel and the New Testament are clear about the last days… men will be mockers and lovers of themselves… lovers of pleasure. They will actually acquire teachers, even PhDs who will appeal to their appetites, their DESIRES. I will NOT be afraid to speak the good news, the Biblical truths. I will not be cornered into silence; I MUST continue to proclaim liberty and freedom through Jesus Christ our Lord even if it does seem ridiculous. Freedom and liberty is NEVER without struggle… even if it is an entire life time… SO WHAT!”
This is probably the most interesting part of the entire rant. Notice in the first line he makes no pretense that Exodus is about assisting homosexuals to overcome their attractions. Instead Exodus is a religious ministry with the sole goal of converting souls to Christ. Of course, anyone who pays attention knows that, Exodus even says as much, but they place a different emphasis. Whereas Exodus in the public documentation uses language addressing homosexuality first (“Exodus is a nonprofit, interdenominational Christian organization promoting the message of Freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ. according to their website) Mr. Black posits that the emphasis on Christ and getting people to repent their sins so they can love Christ. In Mr. Black’s world the message is much less friendly, much less accepting.
I must however praise Mr. Black for his honesty here. He at least concedes openly that homosexuality is a “struggle” that might never end for people, and as he asks: “so what?” That in fact is the point many of us use. So WHAT if we are gay, so what if we are sexually attracted to members of the same sex? Exodus and similar groups have built their entire existence as “outreach” memories to homosexuals without understanding that most of us don’t WANT their outreach. I can’t say I’m offended by them for existing, what other people do or don’t do in the bedroom doesn’t particularly affect me. But I CAN say I’m very offended by this callousness, an assumption that we should change and a rejection of questioning why they themselves have not always made meaningful change.
This really is their crisis; it is a crisis of their own FAITH. This really is NOT about having a great amount of faith. It is about having faith to begin. They do not understand, and saying they do understand, they are still blind. You really do have to feel sorry for the many who are believing “THE LIE” – “hath God really said.” (Gen 3, Rom. 1) And they mock HIM, even as they mock us who want to follow Christ fully. There is coming a day when they will become violent, calling bitter – sweet, sweet – bitter and then their sweet revenge will grow to a dark hatred and violence; the very people who preach no to hate and say tolerance!
Actually I find this a very powerful assumption. His underlying theme here is that it is not having faith that is required, but having the courage to begin a process. He seems to suggest that people who do not follow his beliefs on human sexuality will eventually become bitter because people disagree with him. Yet such things often move along a pendulum. At various times various racial groups in and outside the United States have enjoyed greater or lesser freedom for example.
In the early 17th century it might have been considered a high point of Native American power in the United States. In those early days Native Americans and the Europeans worked together to assist the Europeans to survive. Shortly thereafter the Europeans basic assumptions about the Native Americans shone through as they took their land, killed them off, and drove the survivors westward. Today (skipping a lot of history for the sake of keeping this a sane length) Native Americans are gradually entering a better era especially with the rise of Casinos, even though most Native Americans are still below the poverty line.
My point is that gays have not always been in such a tolerant and helpful environment even as much as we have one today. For centuries homosexuality was treated as an offense punishable by death. We’ve been imprisoned because of our sexuality. Burned at the stake. We’re considered “objectively disordered” by the Catholic Church. Yet we’re supposed to become upset because of a handful of ex-gays which may increase numerically with time? The arrogance there is breath-taking if you look at it in a historical context. The lack of education and foreknowledge behind the quote displays a lack of desire to understand our history and an inability to see his faith as anything less than the most influential aspect in our lives.
It is unfortunate that Cohen portrays reparative therapy very goofy. I think he means well. However, it is so strange! The only thing that is remotely close to his touch therapy would be normal holy relational bonding with safe people… this is certainly beneficial to those who are touched deprived or only relate in a sexual ways to touch. This is better in the family or the community in the Church, not in therapy. I still like him; I just wish he would listen to you!
This is where I’m going to end because I really don’t have the patience for the author, he’s going around in circles speaking of religion and ignoring any and all empirical (or even practical) data on the subject. However, what I find interesting here is not his condemnation of Richard Cohen, I think at this point that’s only sane. What is interesting instead is his (and Mr. Thomas’) refusal to describe or explain what IS legitimate reparative therapy. Is having a male do automotive work reparative therapy as reportedly Love In Action did? Are competitive sports an aspect of it? What is and is not legitimate reparative therapy?
Sorry, I really didn’t intend my post to be NEARLY this long.
Ahhh… good ol Stephen Black. Strange but true story: I had some interesting IM exchanges with him some years back, after he’d been at First Stone for quite some time.
Long story short, he thought I was a gay guy (don’t ask) and was totally trying to mack on me. When I told him I wasn’t interested he got VERY angry and did the whole ALL CAPS thing at me quite a bit.
“Why is it so difficult and threatening to the gay community? Could it be that there really is a God and they know it? Could it be that there really is only a few, a minority, who will actually follow Christ fully and they hate it?”
Let’s just cut through all this nonsense. If you’re gay, then you’re gay. Whether or not you believe in God and whether or not you are a Christian won’t make a ha’p’orth of difference. I was a Christian all through my childhood and adolescence; it didn’t stop me from discovering that I was gay, even though I didn’t want to be. For a short time (about a year) during my university years I stopped regarding myself as a Christian, although I didn’t really stop believing in God. Then I went back to being a Christian. I stayed gay – even though at that time I still didn’t want to be. Now I can thank God for – among many other things – making me male and making me gay.
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Thank you.
i am not so sure i believe that i can be changed, i tried, and tried, i finally gave up. i am still miserable, but took the “advice” of the gay community and a therapist and told family and friends , it was a horrible decision, i have a sister that doesn’t want me to see her kids a brother that won’t talk to me and a mother that tells me i have a sickness. a church that tells me i have a deep moral disorder and two old friends from college responded with ” have you gotten any help” as pathetic as all of you think these ex gay people are somedays i wish they had the “cure” i just had to write to tell you its not as easy as i read on gay blogs or especially from str8 people taking up the “cause” what do they know anyway…you don’t even have to post this ..i don’t really care .. i guess i just had to say something i get so frustrated when i read these sites..its NOT easy
Henry,
It most certainly isn’t easy.
I’m very sorry for the pain you’re experiencing right now. I think many of us here can understand what you’re going through. We’ve all lost friends, and some of us have even lost family members when we came out. It is terribly tragic when this happens, and I cannot tell you how very sorry I am that things aren’t going well for you right now.
As difficult as this sounds, I do hope you will give your friends and family members time. They have discovered something very new about you that they didn’t know before. You, on the other hand, may have known this for most of your life. It took you a very long time for you to come to a point where you felt you should tell your family and friends. They will also need time to come to a point where they can respond appropriately. Some may never get there, although I fervently pray that doesn’t happen.
I don’t know how old you are. I waited until I was forty years old before I took the steps you took. Looking back, I feel like I was quite a coward. But then, there were a lot of things to be afraid of, aren’t there? As you said, it’s not easy. Not at all. But I admire you for taking the steps you took. And I hope and pray that you will find the strength to endure the difficulty, as well as the patience to let them work out their issues in whatever amount of time they need to do so. That’s obviously going to be especially difficult because we all want our friends and families to love us no matter what.
God Bless you and please, keep in touch.
Hey Henry…
I’m one of those who experienced fallout after coming out. Relationships lost, estrangement from cherished family members, choosing to find a new faith community because my beliefs distanced me from ones I had been a part of for years. It’s tough when, intentionally or not, loved ones shame us or attempt to punish us for our decisions or our beliefs.
Six years ago I lost my then-partner to suicide after he had been shunned by the churches where he had shared his music (and still wanted to share it).
For many of us, working through the coming out process ends up being similar to the work people do in the process and aftermath of divorce:
Friendships and allegiances change — no matter how much everyone wants to be friendly, inevitably friendships change, with some of them ending or going dormant.New social networks are needed — it often doesn’t work to stay embedded in the same social circles and environments as an ex-spouse.Blame and shame are lobbed in one direction or another by folks who used to be close and trusted friends and family members, often about issues that are nobody’s business.Some good and cherished aspects of life before divorce are lost.New gifts, connections, relationships begin to emerge in the post-divorce life.
At first it sounds sensible to think that, if married life becomes problematic, dysfunctional, or abusive, divorce will bring quick relief, or peace, or joy. It’s generally not that simple, though. Plenty of worthwhile and necessary work is required to build a new life.
Coming out is similar, in my mind. Even if a closeted or ex-gay life becomes problematic, dysfunctional, or troubling, coming out means starting over. We end up building new friendships, creating fresh social networks, exploring new communities. We often end up working through a second adolescence, as well, figuring out who we are, what makes us tick, and what matters most to us.
I’d encourage you to be gentle with yourself… continue building a supportive network… take things step by step, day by day, knowing that peace comes with time.
Hi, Henry,
I don’t know of anyone in the gay “community” who suggests that people come out without any regard to consequences. If you know of someone specific who makes coming out sound easy, please let us know — someone should be complaining loudly to them.
It’s difficult, as you say, and sometimes dangerous. A high degree of caution and discretion is wise. Apart from that, I think Jim and Steve are right on.
Henry,
More intelligent people than I have already said as much but I figured I’d also agree that its not easy to figure out what you believe is right. I waited six years to tell the guy I first noticed I had strong feelings for how I felt, at first he totally rejected me as even a friend, he told all his friends and practically destroyed both our lives. My parents have had a difficult time over the years adjusting to the reality of things. I’ve had people I considered friends for life reject me and call me a “fag.” I’d never say it was easy, its pretty darn difficult in fact.
What kept me going though is actually pretty simple. There’s a quote by Theodor Seuss Geisel (better known as Dr. Seuss) that I’ve always tried to remember through the good and bad times: “Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who matter don’t mind.” It sounds trite and clichéd but I think its true, the people that really matter in your life will stick by you and try to understand.
No one can tell you how to feel or how to react to that feeling, I think its a very personal journey for every person who is attracted… well, to anyone, gay, straight, or bisexual. Feelings, especially feelings considered outside of the mainstream are never easy to sort out. I just hope that whatever conclusions you come to, however difficult it may be you find your peace.
Good lord. I’m so glad I came out at 23. It’s made my 30’s so much more enjoyable.