According to David More, editor of QNotes, Jay Bakker (son of Jim and Tammy Faye) is threading a religious and political needle by agreeing to an upcoming speech at the Exodus annual antigay conference in Asheville, N.C.
QNotes quotes a phone conversation that he had with Bakker recently:
“I think what the church has done to the gay community is horrible and wrong,” he said with a start. “My family went through so much hurt and rejection from the church. I wanna go back and show them how hurtful they’ve been.
“There will be people there because they don’t think God wants them to be gay. And then there are others who think this is their last chance. I don’t want them to think this is their last chance. God’s going to love them no matter if they’re straight or gay.
“I would never tell anyone that they have to change their sexual orientation or they’re going to hell. I just want to tell them that God loves them. I know I serve a loving and compassionate God — but I don’t think the gay community has been shown that.”
Bakker says Exodus required all speakers to sign political-correctness documents tightly restricting what can or can’t be said — and that he refused to sign anything.
“I told them I’m not gonna get up there and tell anybody they can’t be gay or straight. I told them that all I was going to do was talk about God’s love. So they bent the rules for me. They changed their contract for me to be there. That’s a good thing. I hope it means we’re moving towards a more compassionate church.”
Bakker says he is prepared for the possibility that Exodus might remove him from the program on the basis of his disclosures to QNotes.
Hat tip: Micah B.
Why would Exodus be so “insistent” that Jay Bakker attend the same conference as Jerry Falwell? Maybe I’m overly suspicious, but this sounds like some kind of set-up. Falwell could use Exodus and Bakker to clean-up his anti-gay and opportunist images. He may use the conference to apologize for his anti-gay remarks and his role in the PTL bankrupcy. He could even have a Swaggart-style apology moment and spin himself into a repentant, compassionate conservative (while avoiding Mel White’s Soulforce).
Also, it’s not clear to me what Jay Bakker’s and his church’s theological view of homosexuality are. Granted, Bakker seems to say all the gay-affirming statements, but the article didn’t explicitly state Bakker’s or his church’s theology regarding homosexuality. Afterall, many fundamentalist/evangelical churches would welcome gays as ‘sinners’, but not affirm gay marriages.
Also, technically Moore is incorrect. Exodus does not threaten hell for not becoming straight. It may be implied and Exodus certainly stigmatizes homosexuality, but it doesn’t outreach preach ‘gay=damnation’. Exodus’ compassionate conservative approach is to love the sinner and *treat* the sin.
The slippery thing about fundamentalism is that no particular individual can speak on behalf of an entire church no matter how prominent the individual. So understanding Jay Bakker’s church’s theological view is pretty much irrelevant.
On the other hand, Jay Bakker’s views are very relevant. I don’t know much about him at all, except that it appears that he is just enough of a rebel to refuse to tow any line handed to him. Perhaps it was his own life experiences that led to this, I don’t know. For now, it is probably best to take him at his word, but to watch closely. Sort of a “trust but verify” stance.
I think I can trust Bakker here.
His mother is a gay icon. She’s made appearances, and films at gay venues.
Literally, some of her best friends really ARE gay and lesbian.
Tammy Faye herself has spoken out against homophobia and Jerry Falwell in particular, who kicked her and her husband and family to the curb and hijacked their media church and holdings.
She appeared at a church, the Gateway, here in Los Angeles last year.
I attended that service with a young gay teen friend of mine.
Half the congregation was LGBT and included a few notably out performers like Leslie Jordan.
TF stated over and over again that gay people were God’s people and nobody had a right to judge them BUT God. And clearly God accepted and that’s the way it’s supposed to be.
I would expect that her son has learned some positive things about gay people up close and personal through his mother and hasn’t nearly the animus you’d expect.
I agree this situation with Falwell, might be a setup.
But I’m willing to give young Mr. Baker the benefit of the doubt until he proves otherwise.
I’ve met Jay Bakker once and have read some of his stuff, and I honestly think he doesn’t know how he feels about the whole “gay=sinful” party line. What he has done is spoken out quite strongly against the religious right’s abuse of gays. My impression of his church is that they’re struggling people on a journey trying to figure out their relationship to God as best they can, and as many of them (including Bakker) are recovering from drug and alcohol addiction, they probably figure they’ve got their own messes to sort out before they start worrying about anyone else’s.
I want to trust Jay Bakker at his word, but the fact that he agreed to speak at an Exodus conference (featuring Falwell no less!) does raise questions. However, there is an interesting disclaimer on his church’s website, http://www.vivalarevolution.org, regarding his appearances:
“PLEASE NOTE: Revolution does not publicly endorse the organizations or events Jay and Matt speak for. Because of their desire to spread the message of unconditional love and grace, Jay and Matt will speak for anyone; they speak on this topic no matter what the ideals of the organization or event they are speaking at.”
So Jay Bakker’s appearance at Exodus may not be an endorsement of its view of homosexuality.
It’s not fair to presume Jay Bakker has the same views as his mother, Tammy Faye Bakker Messner. However, Jay Bakker seems to preach some of the same unconditional love and reconcilation messages of his mother.
It should also be noted that although Tammy Faye may attend many gay pride events, she does maintain certain views that may be considered anti-gay. According to a October 3, 2003, article in The Dallas Voice and referenced in The Independent Weekly:
“I don’t think there should be gay marriages. I think that marriage is between a husband and wife. I think the Bible decided that many years ago. I feel sorry for the gay people, but I think that there can never really be a marriage between gay people. That’s just my opinion and a billion other people’s.”
She is later quoted, “The gay community knows I have a disagreement. I got right on Larry King and I told him, ‘The gay people and I have agreed to disagree.'”
Again, it should not be assumed that Jay Bakker holds the same views as his mother. But I do think it is fair to conclude that just because someone is loving and welcoming to gay communities, it doesn’t necessarily mean they accept the gay communities’ viewpoint. This is the challenge of confronting compassionate conservatives who may be very sincere and loving while at the same time opposing gay causes and possibly even supporting the “ex-gay” movement.
Norm!
Regarding Christians who oppose gay marriage on the basis of philosophical-religious convictions: That is their belief. It doesn’t make them automatically anti-gay or homophobic. I think to accuse them of such things is a knee jerk reaction that may be due an ingrained victim mentality.
In order to love and welcome homosexuals into the church, one need not believe that it is right for them to be married. At the same time, believing that marriage is between man and woman does not automatically nullify one’s belief that one should love and welcome homosexuals.
I support civil unions, but I am against marriage between two men. But that is my belief.
Does it make me homophobic? Well, I have many gay friends and I accept them in my church. I also acknowledge that one can remain homosexual and still go to heaven–a fairly radical belief that has fallen on deaf conservative ears.
Anna F.
Anna, I absolutely agree with you that opposition to gay marriage does not necessarily make someone antigay or homophobic.
RE: Anna F.
I fully understand what you are getting at. For me, I don’t think that there should be *ANY* law that favours married couples of other relationship structures – the preferential treatment should end NOW, and simply allow marriage to be a cute, formal ceremony that has no real legal significance.
If there is no preference in the eyes of the law and services provided by the government in relation to married couples, then the reason for gays to get married would be moot.
For example, why should a family get a tax break, just because they have children? just because they’re a couple? does it make any sense? of course not. In the eyes of the law, the government shouldn’t care if the coupld is married or not, the only issue should be “is this person paying the right amount of tax” – in regards to superannuation and inheritance, again, there shouldn’t be need for a couple to be married when the only requirement would be for those relevant documents to simply state who the next of kin is, and pass a law prohibiting the family from trying to challenge that next of kin status.
I don’t know why Jay Bakker will be doing a speach at an exodus conference, but it was my understanding that Jim & Tammy were not anti-gay. I may be wrong, but that was my understanding.
BTW, Regan is quite correct about Tammy Faye. On the other hand, it should be acknowledged that she, like all of these people, are entertainers. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Anna, there is no such thing as “gay marriage.” There is marriage. What is your proposed reason for excluding same sex couples from marriage? One might seriously ask, what would be your proposed reason for excluding people of different races, religions, etc. from marriage?
It seems to me, in reference to same sex marriage, that folks are not doing a very good job at being precise about what they mean.
When Tammy Faye says she does not believe gay people should get married, she is speaking about the actual marriage–the ritual of her church that recognizes the union of two people. That may or may not be homophobic, depending upon one’s perspective, and I don’t see any reason to argue that here.
What most gay people mean when they use the term “marriage” is the legal recognition of the commitment between two people to share a life together. When one thinks that opposite sex marriage is ok but that same sex marriage is not within this framework of understanding, it is most assuredly homophobic, as is anything that proposes a double standard within the application of the law.
I think the problem some folks have with “gay marriage” is that they see marriage as the ceremony, white dress, vows, kiss the bride, reception, honeymoon.
Since they can’t picture same-sex couples in that setting, they try to restrict “marriage”.
What they forget is that gay folks already have the trappings of marriage. Lots of churches offer the ceremony whether they call it marriage or not (one denomination just voted to go national with calling it marriage).
The only missing part is the legal rights and obligations to each other. And that’s the part that most folks find less disturbing.
It really is ironic.
looks like jay bakker has been removed from the exodus program: jay’s schedule
I think the notice attached to the schedule says a lot about the way that Jay Bakker thinks:
PLEASE NOTE: Revolution does not publicly endorse the organizations or events Jay and Matt speak for. Because of their desire to spread the message of unconditional love and grace, Jay and Matt will speak for anyone; they speak on this topic no matter what the ideals of the organization or event they are speaking at.
I’m guessing that Exodus did not want to HEAR a message of unconditional love and grace. Can’t imagine why.
After attending Open Door Community Church in 2005, Jay’s beliefs about homosexuality and Christianity were changed forever. Please look at this website below and read and listen to Jay’s message in 2005, you’ll hear his “heart” about God not condeming gay people. He’s paid a price for his stand for gays, including losing speaking engagements and lots of money from donations, but he continues to support his gay brothers and sisters.
He returned to Open Door on Father’s Day, and Sundance Channel videotaped him for a documentary on his stance on gays and God. It will be out in December ’06.
http://www.sherwoodopendoor.org
https://www.sherwoodopendoor.org/specialmessages.html
Sunday, June 18, 2006 – 10:30am
Father’s Day Celebration with Jay and Amanda Bakker
Invite your father to our annual Father’s Day Celebration Service and potluck supper! Every dad in attendance will receive a gift. Jay and Amanda Bakker will be joining us from Atlanta!
We are here..and we may be queer…but we love Jesus too ! Jay knows this..and Jerry Falwell lives in his own little box and will never know our hearts ! Thanks Jay and Amanda. We love you.
I agree that christians should not be against the person who is gay. However, being gay is not condoned by God in the Bible and just like getting drunk with wine and stealing is a sin, so is being gay…it’s no worse or no less of a sin than anything else labeled as a sin in the Bible, but the Bible is specific. Now, do I have friends who are gay? Yes. Do I love them? Of course. But loving them also means that I love them enough to tell them the truth that being gay is a sin. God takes us as we are, and any gay person should be able to come to church, but once a person gives their life to Christ, He will help that person overcome their sin, whether it’s addiction to drugs or being gay. Therefore, I have to disagree with Bakker on this issue, simply because the Bible that he is preaching says something different than what he is saying. Christ was welcoming of everyone, but he was also straight to the point and truthful regarding his teaching. He loved everyone…and that meant that sometimes he would tell someone even if that hurt them. In the instance of the Rich Young Ruler: the ruler came to Jesus and asked him what he would need to do to get to heaven…Jesus replied that he needs to keep the commandment…the ruler replied that he did…then Jesus cut straight to the point with him…he said, then sell all you have and give it to the poor then follow me. Does having money mean that you can’t go to heaven? No, but when something separates you from God, like money or your heart (Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things”) then it becomes sin. The statement from Jesus to the rich young ruler hurt the ruler, even though it would seem like not much of a problem to us, but it was a problem to God and Jesus addressed this problem because he loved the man, but the man went away sad because he could not bring himself to sell all his stuff. Following Christ is not easy, but the greatest thing about it is that the more we give up our own selfish ambitions and the more we rely on Christ for our life needs, the more we are blessed. “This is the love of God, that we keep His commands. And his commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3)” God’s love is us keeping the commandments…in other words He gave us the commands because He loves us and knows that by following Christ and His commandments we will be blessed beyond belief…I know I have.
I agree that christians should not be against the person who is gay. However, being gay is not condoned by God in the Bible and just like getting drunk with wine and stealing is a sin, so is being gay…it’s no worse or no less of a sin than anything else labeled as a sin in the Bible, but the Bible is specific. Now, do I have friends who are gay? Yes. Do I love them? Of course. But loving them also means that I love them enough to tell them the truth that being gay is a sin. God takes us as we are, and any gay person should be able to come to church, but once a person gives their life to Christ, He will help that person overcome their sin, whether it’s addiction to drugs or being gay.
Jeremiah, you equate being gay like stealing and being drunk. These actions are done by conscious choice. Being gay is not.
How do you feel about divorce and remarriage? Its the sin of adultry which is clearly a choice. Would you tell a divorced person about their sin? (except in cases of adultry – Matthew 5 v.31-32) How do you think you’d be perceived by most Christians and non-Christians? You’d have a lot of problems convincing them its a sin.
Ministers and those that claim to champion the defense of traditional marriage have yet to call divorce and remarriage a sin (except the Catholic Church but even they have annulments). No one has tried to pass ballot measures in all 50 states to make divorce illegal nor have they publically condemned or demanded those that have divorced to remain celibate. However, they have spent numerous dollars to make sure gay people do not have the equal rights as everyone else. I have yet to hear any church excluding divorce and remarried persons from becoming full members in their churches. Yet in many churches gays and lesbians have been excluded from participation. This is why I have a problem with those that call themselves (Sola scriptura – by scripture alone) Christians. Some are no more than “selective” or “cafeteria Christians” all the while claiming to be true to the faith. I’m not condemning you but pointing out that if you believe in scripture alone then you have to be really able to abide by all of scripture yourself. I’d bet you’d find a lot of inconsistences between the Old and New Testaments. Even among those that call themselves Evangelical/Fundamentalists admit to having a problem keeping all of scripture in practice. Yet attacking gays and lesbians is certainly the one area that keeps the money flowing in their pockets.
Jeremiah you have no right to tell anyone what is sin. Christ himself is judge. If you believe in the power of deliverance and you yourself believe homosexuality is a sin then let God handle it. Jesus himself said, “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” (Luke 6 v.37).
If all Christians obeyed this commandment along with loving others our world would be a better place to live in.
Ken,
Same-sex attractions aren’t a choice. Identifying as ‘gay’ and acting on those attractions is a choice.
Alan, identifying oneself as gay is not a choice. Its simply an acknowledgement of the fact that one is same sex attracted. There is nothing wrong with acting on those attractions in a committed loving relationship as no one is getting hurt.
Alan said:
Ken,
Same-sex attractions aren’t a choice. Identifying as ‘gay’ and acting on those attractions is a choice.
The problem with your above statement Alan is that even though some gay and lesbian Christians remain celibate because they believe acting on their orientation is sinful they still identify as gay. What of them? Are they to identify as asexual then?
I don’t believe an ever loving God is going to condemn me to hell if I express my love for another man in a monogamous relationship which, put simply, is nothing more than acting on “my nature”.
I’m thankful I don’t take everything you say at face value Alan concerning this issue. There is quite a bit of hypocrisy within Christian circles that I’m sure that you yourself would agree which is never condemned. I myself practice what Christ has commanded which is to love God and to love one another. Not to judge or condemn. I don’t commit bibliolatry but rather let the Holy Spirit guide me. If you think about it Alan it was the Holy Spirit that guided the early church and the Apostles. Not a bible. (Acts Ch. 2 v.1-4) Christ never instructed us to worship the scriptures but the ever Living God of the scriptures.
I never said homosexuality would send you to Hell.
Alan,
Identifying as ‘gay’ and acting on those attractions is a choice.
I wish you would stop conflating identity with actions. They are not the same.
Alan,
I never said homosexuality would send you to Hell.
Interesting. Can you elucidate?
Alan said:
I never said homosexuality would send you to Hell.
I never said you did Alan. But I am echoing what some conservative Christian organizations have said repeatedly that Exodus has aligned themselves with.
It’s sad that sites such as this exist and promote Morilization. You people hide behind your own hypocrisy. Who do you think you are? President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was assassinated because he was going to stir things up. The “Status Quo” was in jeopardy, therefore Kennedy had to go.
I think that Jay Bakker is doing God’s TRUE will, and it makes people like you nervous.
I’ll use the umbrella term “Anti-Gay” to infer reference to narrow-minded “Different is Bad.” people like you.
What’s wrong? Scared?, that it might make a positive difference in the World?
That it might change the “Status Quo?” You fire darts labeled “Sin” at us gays or anyone you label as “Sinners” because inside you is nothing but emptiness.
You do it to feel alive, NOT to feel the true Spirit of The Lord. I say God Bless and EMPOWER Jay Bakker and his Ministry!