John Smid was the director of Exodus member ministry Love in Action (LIA), a residential ex-gay program in Memphis, Tennessee, for 22 years. This included the Refuge youth program which gained notoriety in 2005 when a teen, Zach Stark, created what became a plea for help on his MySpace page.
This event and the protests that followed were a significant turning point in the effort to shine a light on the actions of such ministries. But we should not forget that most of those who would later recognize harm from their time at LIA had already been through the program by the time the events of 2005 unfolded.
In 2007, three former Exodus leaders offered a public apology to those “who believed our message that there is something inherently wrong with being gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender.” Today we find that Smid is offering his own apology.
Some people have spoken out about being wounded through their experience with Love In Action. ” I want to say I am very sorry for the things that have wounded you or hurt you by my hands of leadership at Love In Action or anything I have done personally that has harmed you. Please forgive me.
Concerning Exodus International he writes:
I believe I could have done a better job of letting people know that Jesus loves them purely because He does, unconditionally. I am sorry for not being a better vessel of the Love of Christ to those who deeply need to know of His love. I realize I was often more concerned with telling people how to live than I was with imparting God’s grace so that they would want to live!
Concerning the Refuge program responsible for the ordeal over Zach:
I really wanted to help the young men in our program but in some cases the design of our program caused more harm for some of these kids that it did good. I am very sorry for the ways that Refuge further wounded teens that were already in a very delicate place in life.
And Smid asks those who were hurt by or through him to contact him.
If you have been wounded by me or harmed through the hands of my leadership; please come to me and allow an opportunity for me to personally apologize with the hope that we can both be released from the bondage of unforgiveness.
These are just snippets and the entire thing should be read in order to properly evaluate a response, should you have one. There is also a section addressed directly to Ex-Gay Watch readers. Obviously, those who have been hurt through LIA will be most interested in what Smid has to say, but there can be no doubt that it is important.
Readers will have to determine for themselves what this means exactly. Smid is involved in a new ministry, one he says will have no part of the old “change is possible” mission. While his goals seem similar at this point to those of Andrew Marin, the latter does not have the baggage of the former. But making such a public apology would seem an important start.
One more piece of the puzzle is illustrated by the short video below from Smid’s website. It was produced by Morgan Fox, organizer of the Zach Stark protests. Fox also appears in the clip, apparently at a place of reconciliation with Smid.
[vimeo]https://vimeo.com/9357788[/vimeo]What do you think?
Apology noted. Now stop doing what you had to apologize for in the first place.
In other words, go and sin no more against your fellow man.
Meh. Leopard. Spots. Change.
It doesn’t take too long going over his site to run into the same poisonous messages. Links to Exodus. Glowing words about Frank Worthen. He’s even got part of the old team on board (Bob Watson). Only this time he promises it will taste nicer.
That’s called re-marketing, not reformation. LIA simply wasn’t paying his desired salary.
All that aside, John did however make me laugh out loud this morning:
One man said, “John if you can work with sexual recovery, you can surely sell cars!”
Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all along? It’s about time Alan and Randy went to a real University (and passed)… Toyota University!
quite possibly John is on a journey so many Christians are making today. The first step is a change in attitude. This often happens when instead of judging and trying to change others they are prepared to be in a space of questioning and listening to gay and lesbian christians who have realised their morality is a choice but our sexual orientation isn’t. Once the change in attitude happens the previous misconceptions begin to crumble away.
thanks John for the humility of the apology…..I trust it brings healing to those who have been harmed. Although for some the wounds and trauma are deep and it can take years. Some struggle to let it go.
I am very appreciate of John’s apology. I wish that it reflected a change in theology rather than just a change in perspective, but I believe it is sincere and I’ll take it for what it is.
As for “apologize in person”, I would not recommend it. Though John has moved away from judgmentalism, his site still has as a doctrinal statement that “We acknowledge the sinfulness of any sexual act outside of the scriptural context of Holy Matrimony between a man and a woman” and I’m not seeing that to be anything less that a rejection of those who do not agree.
OMG WTF is that seven minute psycho-babble video?
Shut up, John. Really. Just stop talking.
That’s probably not the most effective way to express your opinion here, Evan. Be honest, but also try to be civil. Thanks.
But David, that’s what it is. All he’s doing is retooling his harmful message, yet missing the entire point of why his message is harmful.
And I REALLY don’t know what Morgan Fox is doing making nice-nice with him.
Some people you just spit out. You wish them no ill will, but you spit them out.
Good on him…definitely a step in the right direction 🙂
You explained a valid point of view without telling anyone to shut up, that’s much better to me 😉
OMG, David.
😉
This is indeed an important start. It reminds me of the Days of Awe, the 10 days when God watches us (the Jewish people) closest, between Rosh Hashana (new year) and Yom Kippur (day of atonement, the holiest of the high holy days). We are to make amends directly with those we’ve wronged on earth, our fellow humans, before we dedicate the day of fasting to repentence and return to God. God has the power to forgive – and He does, to no end – but He does not magically change the minds of others you’ve wronged. You need to take responsibility. And talking about it or thinking about it is not enough. You need to take action, walk the walk, etc. I believe Smid is doing so.
I encourage everyone to do as he asks; if you were hurt by him express the hurt and ask for an apology. Believe it or not, being directly confronted and being allowed to face up to the wrong committed is just as healing for some as confronting someone about how they hurt you.
I agree that it’s a “step in the right direction” — an “important start”. No repentance is perfect or will satisfy everyone. I have personally and publically apologized many times over (for nearly 30 years now) and I am still told by some gay ativists that my apology was not enough — and will never be enough. Could he do more? Sure. Should he do more? Of course. All of us should do more.
But I thank him for this. It’s a step. A big step. I thank him for apologizing for the harm he knows he has done. I believe that once you face it, God will take you the rest of the way. It’s not an easy journey, but it needs to be done. All of us who did harm, intentionally or not, owe the world a HUGE apology for our involvment in Exodus.
Now, if only Frank Worthen (co-founder of Exodus and founder of LIA), Alan Chambers, Randy Thomas and the rest of Exodus leadership — past and present — would take such a step. After all the wrong done, it is simply the right thing — the “Christian” thing — to do.
I have mixed emotions about the apology (speaking as one who tried to degay through ‘ministries’ like Johns, but was never directly involved with his particular endeavor).
On the one hand, I am encouraged by anyone who wants to listen and look. I am of the opinion that love is the most important thing we can do as people, and I don’t think you can love a person who you cannot hear or see.
On the other hand, for me the definition of love is to value and affirm the person we see and hear. Love is not a process of altering another to suit our own idea of lovely, that’s just a form of self validation. Exgay beliefs do not affirm a person as TGLB. They don’t recognize us as legitimate people and that is where all the harm begins.
It seems to me that John has relocated but that he brought his baggage with him. What happens when he unpacks? What is in the luggage?
This type of speech, containing many “I” statements, is typical of people with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder). He preens himself constantly and even when he does a few “we/our/us” statements at the end he focusses on others as secondary to himself.
I think that would depend on the nature of the statements, though I know next to nothing about NPD. The use of the pronoun “I” may also be frequent when someone is trying to take direct responsibility for a wrong and ask forgiveness.
I’m with Evan – what a bunch of crap. This self-involved judgmental whacko has spent decades either refusing his own homosexuality and in doing so, has tortured others, and is now continuing to call the natural state of homosexuality sinful – meaning wrong. I don’t buy into all that sin crap – I recovered from anything religious years ago – these type of people need to move on and fix themselves and leave my homosexual brothers and sisters alone to live their lives and flourish. Kind words don’t cut it in these situations – bluntness – and LEGAL ACTION – are the only actions that might stop this waste of time madness.
I, like many others, was once a conservative Christian, and I toed the conservative Christian line on homosexuality. But gradually I came to accept gays and eventually I was able to accept myself.
I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t believe that “change is possible” for other people, too. I’d also be a hypocrite if I denied them the same slow, gradual process that I went through. I celebrate every step – and I think this is a step in the right direction.
And of course, like every apology, it will ultimately be tested by actions.
Mr. Bussee, let’s be honest here. Most people who are still angry with you and unwilling to forgive you aren’t angry because you changed your mind or because you spoke out about it. They’re angry and unwilling to forgive you because you stayed silent for YEARS after you realized that the program you created and administered was bogus and did real harm, while thousands more vulnerable people were put through the hell that you helped to create.
I posted this at his side:
John,
While I appreciate your apology, but two elephant in the room remain.
Although you realize that you have hurt people, I do not think you know how much. Those that committed suicide because they could not reconcile their sexual orientation with your indoctrination of how they would have to deal with their faith will never come and ask for a personal apology.
The second elephant is that you are avoiding to tell us your view on homosexuality now. Do you still think it is reparable, changeable? Do you still think it is a sin despite that god will forgive you and love you? Do you still think it is okay to try, maybe with more gentle loving methods, to change someones orientation?
An answer would be appreciated.
Kim
I’m with emily, though perhaps with less grace.
Understanding is one thing, forgiveness quite another.
Apologizing is one thing, atonement quite another.
Backing off is one ting, healing is quite another.
1. I am glad to read John Smid’s apology, and I hope it is a step toward him becoming the kind of person who does not harm LGBT people, or those who are having conflicts but don’t embrace such an identity.
2. Unfortunately, I agree with Paul’s comment above that exgay beliefs don’t affirm our relationships or respect embracing a TGLB identity. As Paul says: “…and that is where all the harm begins.” I agree. Smid says his new ministry is not PRIMARILY (read it closely) focused on ex-gay ministry. But it is an ex-gay ministry, and therefore it will continue to propagate harm – for TGLB people, for those who are conflicted, and for anyone who does not accept Smid’s version of Christianity (these people believe this last group will be punished by god just as this first group will). Mr. Smid, I appreciate your apology; however, I believe you have a long way to go to truly understand the harm you continue to cause.
3. Survivors of ex-gay ministries BEWARE: While I agree with Emily that there can be the potential for healing by speaking about the harm to the person who harmed you, when this person (John Smid) does not realize that he is still contributing to the abuse of others (see point #2), then he is a dangerous person for survivors to talk with. He is still an abuser, with a more subtle brand of heterosexism and condemnation, which is why he is MORE dangerous now than before. That he thinks by “revamping the methods” of Love in Action now makes LIA not harmful reveals that he does not understand the abuse that goes on.
4. Last point. Remember that this apology from Smid came about/happened as a result of an invitation for dialogue by the author of the article, David Roberts. I agree with Roberts in his point that Smid’s apology and new ministry sounds a lot like Andrew Marin (author of _Love is an Orientation_). Marin’s book/perspective, I think, is MORE dangerous in some ways than Exodus, because it’s a kinder, gentler version of the same condemning, heterosexist message, and Marin offers in this book a strategy for Christians to develop relationships with LGBT people for the ultimate purpose of converting them to [their version of] Christianity (which they then think will lead converts eventually to renounce their homosexuality).
Guess what Marin’s first suggested step in this process is?
Yep, an apology.
Be careful of kinder, gentler Christian supremacists.
I believe they are very sincere, they really do believe they love us and that what they have to offer is good for us.
They’re dangerous.
Thank you for pointing that out about Marin, Christine.
It’s beyond me why people consider him to be any sort of ally.
He refuses to take real stances, couching it all in the hocus pocus of wanting to share God with all people, and he creates safe spaces for whatever discriminatory beliefs people hold, under the guise of “meeting them where they are.”
Christine, could you give me a page number or numbers to find where Marin says this? When I reviewed the book I was looking for anything that might indicate that people be treated as “projects” and what you describe would really stand out to me. I would like to verify for the future.
Thanks.
Christine,
I have to second David’s request. While I find Marin’s “woe is me” gays to be different from my experience of the broad expanse of the gay community, I am not aware of any “lead ’em to Jesus so they’ll stop being gay” language in the book.
I agree with Dave Rattigan on this.
TampaZeke: I understand this and do not blame them at all for being angry. They have every right to be. I should have spoken up much, MUCH sooner. Keep in mind, I was in my early twenties, a new father, suddenly unemployed and friendless — and struggling on every level just to survive — still going through my own inner struggle about what to do next.
Leaving Exodus, I had lost all my friends, my faith, my job, my direction. I had no gay friends. I had never even been to a gay bar — or attended a gay support group. I knew of no “gay community” that would welcome me and say, “We are here for you. Take the next step.” There was no support for a guy in my position. No one had done this before. I was on my own.
I just wanted to disappear and try to heal. Gary and I had no one to lean on but each other. We hoped the ex-gay movement would just die. Unfortunately it didn’t. Finally, when Gary became ill, we felt we had to break our silence — not matter what the cost. So we did. Maybe it was not enough, too late — unforgiveable. I guess I have to live with that.
In any case, I think we need to remember that coming out is a process, not an event. It’s step by step — and there is always a next step. Didn’t most of us go through some sort of coming out process? Weren’t there, for many of us, years of silently suffering in the closet before we couldn’t take it any more? How long did it take to find our voice? Some people still haven’t. They are still living the lie.
I knew my family would turn their back. I knew Exodus would condemn me, so-called “Christian friends” would revile me and there were no gay people I could speak to without experiencing similar condemnation.
I was afraid I would lose custody of my daughter if I did and that I would get condemnation from BOTH sides if I did. The fears were justifiable. But that is no excuse. I should have done it earlier — no matter what. I have done all I can think of.
If some gays are still mad, what do you suggest I do? What more can I do? I am willing to do whatever it takes — short of setting myself on fire on Alan Chambers’ doorstep.
maybe you could just set fire to alan chambers and not damage a valuable doorstep.
Nah. just kidding.
. You did do the best you could. i believe Smid is doing the best he can.
We all do the very best that we can, which unfortunately sometimes isn’t very good
Sorry, i didn’t finish.
I certainly appreciate your efforts, michael, and at least Smid is trying to do something. But his confusion over his own journey vs. anyone else’s will never be resolved until he start making some efforts to atone for what he has done so far.
When kids aren’t killing themselves any more becuase they see no cohice between self-destruciton and bible-sanctioned destruction, and Smid can claim some credit for it, then I, too, will believe.
Ben, I don’t “believe”. I have hope. I hope his apology is real and will do some good. As for “forgiving” — I think of two kinds of forgiveness. Type 1: You decide to stop hating a person, even if they haven’t changed on bit, because you are tired of caring that burden. You forgive so you can be free — not because everything is alright.
Type 2. You earn it. The “Four R’s”:
Reponsibility.You say, “I really screwed up. I did harm.” You take the blame. You face the fact that your actions or stupidity hurt someone.
Remorse. The real deal — not just a “I’m sorry, please let me off the hook”. You feel the pain of the pain you have caused. Deep, deep regret. Genuine sorrow. Genuine grief. The kind you would feel if you hit an old lady in a cross walk.
Repair.You do everything in your power to undo the damage. Real steps. Real work. Real atonement. Not empty promises. Real change.
Repeats.None. You do eveything you can not to cause the same harm over and over.
Only time will tell if John does all four. At this point, I choose to believe he’s on the path.
point noted and accepted.
Michael,
One thing that so many people have trouble with is understanding the purpose and the focus of apology and forgiveness.
We don’t forgive for the sake of others. Yes, the forgiven may well benefit from the forgiveness, but we forgive because it liberates us.
I think Jesus really understood this. He knew that resentment, anger, and spite usually hurt the one holding it more than the target. So he said, “forgive” because God forgave you, thus giving us a reason to let go of all that bile.
Apologies work similarly, but actually serve two functions. First, they allow the guilty party to begin to forgive themself as well as starting the atonement process which makes the situation whole. (Just as forgiveness relieves the injured, so does apology relieve the guilty). But it also provides confirmation and assurance to the harmed party that their feelings, their lives, are of value (It also discourages the guilty party from continuing their behavior because it reminds them that others are of value).
And Jesus knew about this as well, it’s called “repentance”. We are called to repent, not so that God can forgive us (he does anyway), but because it liberates us from both guilt and a pattern of harm to others.
Ultimately, though, we have to forgive, even if we aren’t asked. Not for them, but for us. And we are called to repent to each other, even if no forgiveness results.
We can’t change others or control their responses. We can only liberate ourselves.
I think that if you look back at your comment above, you’ll see that type 1 is forgiveness and focused on the injured party and what they should do. Type 2 is all about apology and is focused on what the guilty should do; it’s not really about forgiveness.
Thanks for clarifying this. I agree with you Timothy. I am hoping — really hoping — that John is “starting the atonement process which makes the situation whole” — for himself and for all those he may have harmed. Coming out and atonement are both a long, hard “process”.
As one who has done and is still doing it, I may have a certain perspective that others may not share. How many Exodus leaders have done something even close to an apology or tried to make the situation whole?
Very few. The ones who do take a step need some support. It may anger a few people, but I intend to extend a hand to John as he does both. I promised I would and I will. I still believe in change.
Mr. Bussee, I forgive you. I forgave you years ago. Not for your sake but for mine.
It bothers me that even today you seem to be wollowing in self pity and excuses. “The gay community didn’t accept me” I wonder why? “The gay community was going to be as mean to me as the Christians”. Reeeeally? I wonder why that might be? “My wife would be angry with me and she might try to take my kids from me”. After lying to her for years and filling her head with such horrible ideas of what gay people were and what a threat to family and children and morality, can anyone blame her for being angry and wanting to keep her child from such threats.
Nowhere in your last comment did you follow a stated hardship with a acknowledgment of how you created it.
Look, I feel for what you went through. I have some sympathy for it. But it was YOU and your group who convinced my parents that I was a broken person who could be fixed. Because of your advice I was sent, against my will, to “‘ex-gay’ camp”. I was taught to hate myself and to dread every day I lived. I wanted to kill myself. When I finally couldn’t do it anymore and decided, for survival’s sake to accept myself my family disowned me and threw me out on my ass. This is a world that YOU help create for me, I didn’t create it for myself. So forgive me if I find your whining about how abandoned you felt after YOUR creation blew up in your face just a bit nauseating and infuriating.
You have every right to feel that way. I deserve every bit of it. I acknowledge that I created all of it — every bit of it. Now, I am doing my best to un-do it.
TampaZeke, who created the world that Michael grew up in? How far back do you want to take this?
TampaZeke. You asked why I had not spoken up sooner. I answered the question. Not as an “excuse”, but as an explanation of what held me back at the time. I am not wallowing in self-pity. I regret my actions and renounce what I once believed about being gay.
Like many LGBT people, I grew up in a world that taught me to hate my gayness — I didn’t create that world. I thought God would change me. I was wrong. I echoed the message I had been taught by by culture and my religion. I was wrong.
Just like you, “I was taught to hate myself and to dread every day I lived.” Like you, “I wanted to kill myself.” Like you, “When I finally couldn’t do it anymore and decided, for survival’s sake to accept myself my family disowned me and threw me out on my ass.”
So did the many in the church. So did many in the gay community — and I really don’t blame them. Some did not. I am sincerely grateful to those people. I understand that some will continue to be angry no matter what.
Why shouldn’t they be? They have every right to be. I am doing what I can. I cannot and will not continue to apologize over and over. I take full responsibility for the harm I caused, but I choose to move on.
Add to that my anger that you are still a LIAR.
“I have personally and publically [sic] apologized many times over (for nearly 30 years now) and I am still told by some gay ativists [sic] that my apology was not enough — and will never be enough.”
You’re telling us that you’ve been apologizing personally and publicly since 1980 or thereabouts? Really? Somehow that doesn’t match my recollection.
When I was being shipped off to “reorientation camp” because of your “testimony” you had already come to the conclusion that you were full of shit and were living with your new boyfriend but just couldn’t get around to going public about your epiphany for years later. I just found that out recently. It just re-angered me all over again. Then I read that ONE sentence here and it reignited my fuse. In addition to the fact that it is a lie, it makes it sound like “after all I’ve done over the last “thirty” years, there are still some gay people that just can’t let it go. Shame on those bitter homos for not getting over it already. You still have a long way to go before you’re honest with yourself and the community. It actually takes a person of GREAT character to forgive someone who continues to revise history and make excuses the way you do.
With that I’m truly done with you. I needed this opportunity to confront you. I didn’t think I did until today. Now I know that there is more to freeing one’s soul than simple forgiveness. It just ain’t that easy sometimes Timothy. Sometimes we MUST confront the offender and the offense before true forgiveness can happen.
Sorry Michael, I was typing while you responded. I’m not trying to drag this out. I’ve said my piece and now I’m ready to move on.
I honestly wish you the best in your life. I hope you continue to make amends to those you’ve hurt more than you will ever know.
Take care.
I think it is more helpful to support former leaders who have apologised like Michael and others. I co-ordinated a similar thing here in Australia which also had national and international implications.
Former ex-gay leaders are on a journey like everyone else. Its takes time to resolve our ‘stuff’. Some never seem to continuing to live in the past of hurt, pain and unforgiveness themselves. In the long run though this only hurts them and others more. If you are one of the people who have found peace and resolution you are one of the blessed ones.
As a former high profile preacher here in Australia (not unlike Ted Haggard) it took me 6 years to actually begin to feel human again after the trauma of the scandal. it was at this time I found complete peace and resolution in 3 areas. My sexuality, faith and those who had wronged me.
When the 5 former leaders issued their apologies and were posted on my blog I noted 6 reasons why this had taken so long. You might find that helpful.
l
for some reason the link didn’t appear in the post. Trying again
https://alifeofunlearning.blogspot.com/2007/08/five-of-australias-ex-gay-leaders.html
Glad you got it off your chest. I deserved it. But when I said I have been apologizing for 30 years, it’s true. Not a lie. Not a revision. I should have said, I have been apologizing for 30+ years — first privately to those closest to me — and then more and more publically as time went by.
I started close to home — with family, friends and those we had known personally. One person at a time. We didn’t go public immediately bacause as Anthony pointed out, we were still struggling and we both had children who would be open to public scorn and undeserved pain when we did. And by the way, they have recieved it — from all sides. That’s my own fault.
Maybe you think it’s lame or unforgiveable that we delayed the more public announcement. Maybe you think that we should have done it no matter what — with no concern for how it would impact our kids. You may be right. But, not really sure what to do or how to do it, we started small. Then at college classes and gay discussion groups. Then my local community.
The “big” media didn’t pick it up until the late 80’s when I was approached by a local gay activist attorney who asked if we ready to go public — I do not remember the exact date. I should have done it MUCH sooner, as I acknowledged.
You seem to think I should have called a press conference the moment I left Exodus — fully self-accepting and fully ready to take on the activist role. Considering the justifiable anger that continues to this day in spite of all of this, I sincerely wish I had.
I cannot undo history. It happened as it happened. It took time and it will never be fully done. I am willing to accept the anger that continues to this day and I will continue to make amends to the best of my ability as long as God gives me breath to do so.
…..and possibly it should be noted that had we known what we know now we would never have tried to turn straight. At the time we had know other options as far as we were aware. The gay christian movement was not really birthed till the mid 70’s….it was not even on the radar for a number of years after that…..and it took time for some of us to realise these people were not deceived.
We have all be victims of our own and others ignorance.
Today though is a new day and one by one people are waking up…..and moving along the contimuum for hatred through to advocacy
https://gayambassador2.blogspot.com/
Zeke- for whatever it is worth, I wouldn’t be too hard on Michael. He did what he did at a much different time from now, and has spent a good portion of the last 30 years apologizing for it. This i know for a fact– it is not revisionist. When I was young, I was fortunate– I was a lot stronger than many of my peers, a trait that has served me well my whole life. When I came out in 1971, it was with the knowledge of my own strength. I had not been taught to hate myself, though it was clear to me I was an object of hate.
A lot of people just didn’t– and don’t– have that. Your average Christian who considers himself an abject pustule of sin did not come to that conclusion on his own, and very few children have the interior fortitude to call that BS what it is.
Give him a break.
Why does this struggle exist?
Because we are faced with two major realities.
1. We know that God exists.
2. We know that we are gay.
These two facts are what cause us to wrestle with who we are and what that means for us and eternity. Those who have read God’s word, know very well what it says about homosexuality and what happens to those who “practice” such a “lifestyle”.
Those who know God’s word and battle inwardly with accepting who they are, often don’t have a place to turn to. We know and believe in God but yet are confused as to our position. In our confusion we search to find a safe harbor, a calm in a raging storm. We search for answers but only find that they seem elusive, just out of reach. Someone who has a strong conviction in God and yet are imbued with emotions and feelings that go against the very nature of God, has in effect sailed into the perfect storm.
Ultimately we find ourselves on a journey riddled with questions without answers and searching for a calm in this great storm of life. Some of us searching for these answers come to a realisation that the world offers little if any useful help. A world riddle with organisations and groups offering help with something they themselves do not understand.
It has taken me years to understand that God loves me in spite of all my imperfections (what ever those may be in His eyes) and that while I may seem to take a different view of God than others, it does not escape me that I do not stand alone. Spanning the globe are those whose fight is one in the same.
My heart breaks knowing that some will lose the battle in this confusing war. To those who are fighting within, I say to you, life is worth every ounce of fight. Keep fighting even when the world and ultimately your own doubts tell you to give up. Remember that God does not hate, He loves.
Finally I would like to make a urgent plea to the gay community. It is time that we get some values in our community. It is time that we break away from those things that shed a darkness on our community. I will not go into details but there are alot of things that we need to change in order for the world to take us serious. No we dont need to conform but ridding ourselves of typical destructive patterns may go along way in getting our voices heard.
Sterling, with all respect:
1) Those who have read God’s word, know very well what it says about homosexuality and what happens to those who “practice” such a “lifestyle”.
No we don’t– either what it says, what happens, or any of it.
2) We know that God exists.
You know. The rest of us don’t know, nor do we know that if God exists, he is the chrstian god (in one of his 60,000 denomination permutations , the jewish God, The islamic god, or anyone else’s god. In other words, you believe. you don’t know.
3) “We search for answers but only find that they seem elusive, just out of reach. Someone who has a strong conviction in God and yet are imbued with emotions and feelings that go against the very nature of God, has in effect sailed into the perfect storm.”
lots of poeple have no such problems.
” It is time that we get some values in our community. It is time that we break away from those things that shed a darkness on our community.”
Remember about the woman taken in adultery? “Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone”
Perfect example here. Why is that gay people have to achieve some sort of perfection, according to heterosexist standards, when heterosexuals make no such requirement of themselves to be “taken seriously?”
Most of the darkness on our ocmmunity comes from heteorsexuals (and wanna-be-straight-but-ain’ts)
We deal with the hand that we have been dealth. the wonder is that so many gay people and relationships thrive and grow in spite of all of the social and religious forces arrayed against us, where as so many heterosexual relaitonships crap out despite all of the social and religious forces arrayed to support htem– including the belief that heterosexuality is somehow natural, normal and right, and homosexuality is not.
You owuld think if it were so much God’s will, there wouldn’t be any problems.
But there are
Why such a harsh response, Ben? While Sterling’s statements could have been better qualified to represent a specific group, so could yours. From my experience his description fits a number of people who end up tormented what they see as the incongruence between their faith and their sexual orientation. Certainly this view is represented by many who end up in ex-gay programs of some sort. As such, it could hardly be more germane to what we do.
We don’t have to share a view to acknowledge it as a powerful force in the lives of others.
In response:
I AM GAY!
I, Like many among me have fought with identifying who I am and what that means in relation to what I was taught about God. This I have overcome.
As for my comment about getting some values in our community…Well…. I came out 14 years ago and have experienced the GAY SCENE. It would take a host of comments to explain fully what I mean and the ramifications therein. Just a few words might help the thought process along…Drugs….Promiscuity….Bars……Clubs…..Crimes. Having values and standards are a good thing!
Your description of the struggle some have with their faith and their sexuality seemingly at odds with each other is something I can understand. As I said, this dilemma and variations on the same theme lead many to seek out ex-gay organizations for support and, unfortunately, the attempt to “change”. To a large degree, it even defined a portion of my own life.
However, your comments about the “gay scene” assume that there is only one such experience and it is common to all of us. On that point I really can’t agree. It’s the same as when anti-gays make similar comments about “the gay lifestyle.”
I don’t mean to underestimate the affect of years of marginalization and societal shame have had on the lives of GLBTs, especially in the earlier days of the gay rights movement. When one is forced to be in the fringes of society, one can tend to act accordingly. But today you could go your entire life without becoming involved in any of those things you mentioned.
Some people will, some won’t — that’s how it has always been. It may take 100 years of equality for the more pronounced effects of the years of shame and bigotry to ease their mark on society. But a bar is now more a place where those who enjoy a drink or two can meet with friends, not where one must go just to find friends who are like you or who at least won’t bash you against the sidewalk.
This has been discussed here before with much more valuable detail.
I’m a 20-something gay woman who came out in high school; I never felt i needed to go into “the scene.” The most I delved into it was going to clubs to dance (but never drink) and attending pride-fest (but only to walk around and talk to people). If I wanted to talk to gay people I could talk to classmates. College had even more options. Any time I’m with a group that’s specifically for queers, it’s related to a local Jewish young professionals organization – religious young people in grad school or pursuing careers in various fields.
Demographics still play a huge role in this. If you are from rural south you know this all too well. If you know of another place where gay’s have an opportunity to congregate socially, other than a gay bar or hook-up sites on the internet, feel free to enlighten me.
Hi Sterling,
When you’re a member of a minority who are deliberately separated from each other, it’s easy to buy into the stereotypes as well. And also the low expectations that come with it.
If you’re taught that those bars, promiscuity, drug use and so on are what gay people do, and what’s expected of you, and you have few examples or opportunity that contradicts that experience, then it’s not hard for a young person especially to fall into that trap that is set for them.
And that trap is set by all the anti gay forces that benefit from it.
I would suggest a prayer circle, book club, PFLAG, you have internet access, you can start a social group that gathers specifically for a healthy supportive environment for you and your gay friends.
I’ve done it myself, for gay teens especially who are the most vulnerable.
The grapevine works eventually and who needs to know will know where the safest, most supportive place is.
A big crowd isn’t necessary, but even though I’m not gay…I do try and understand what you mean.
I’m a black woman. And I hate us being defined by stereotypes too and being treated that way before anyone knows who we are as individuals.
Believe me, I know….if any two of black or gay people were seen talking together, someone voices suspicion as if a conspiracy were in effect.
Annoying as hell, and a sure sign of the bigotry in the individuals who harbor such suspicions over simple and innocuous social contact.
Nonetheless, sometimes you have to be the one to initiate contact and grow a system of support and collective protection.
Stirling, have you considered congregating socially with friends?
I hardly think a lack of openness and opportunity for gay men and women in the rural south is ‘our’ fault. I can understand, intellectually, your self-described battle; but you seem at pains to avoid asking who may be to blame for that situation.
I also don’t need you to demand that I or others “get some values”. There is no monolithic ‘gay community’. There is no monolithic ‘gay scene’.
Nothing you have described is compulsory, and I’ve had no difficulty avoiding drugs, promiscuity or crimes. Bars and clubs are a place to socialise with friends, not visit fugitively. You need to be willing to commit to having a stable relationship before you can have one.
If you don’t like some of your own behaviour, stop it. If you don’t like the behaviour of others, avoid them. If you don’t have decent and supportive friends, find some. If where you live is suffocating you, consider moving. If you cannot yet, make plans. Or don’t.
I’m sorry if that’s all too blunt, but honestly what exactly would you like me or anyone else to personally do for you? Seriously.
I agree. I go to bars and restaurants that are frequented by other gay people at least once a week. As Grant said, there is no “monolithic” gay scene, and I’m in the South too.
Actually, I tend to believe that those who wax moralistic on the evils of the so-called “gay scene tend to be projecting their own internalized self-condemnation onto others, which is not useful.
Sterling (and David)
I was not meaning to be harsh towards you, and I truly apologize if it sounded that way. I absolutely knew you were gay, and i do understand the struggle to unite these two warring halves, though i personally never saw it as much of a struggle.
I will try to write later today if I have time. A lot of what has been said after my comments is what I wanted to say anyway.
while gay culture was created around bar culture, it has expanded into many realms beyond that.
I found my partner through a gay dating site, our 4th Anniversary is in just a few weeks. Neither one of us is a drug addict, we’re monogamous (if that even matters), we go to bed early, do what we can to eat right.
If there isn’t anywhere else for gays to congregate in your area perhaps you’re the one to make such a place exist. When there isn’t a door, you make one.
I have been with my partner for 6 years now. I too understand fully what each of your are saying. The last thing I will say is this, get some values.
Man, Sterling, you do have some issues. I’m beginning to seriously doubt your story at this point. You sound too out of touch with the reality of actually being gay to be what you say you are in life. Yours is the prejudice of someone outside looking in.
That’s an ignorant thing to say about people you don’t know. But, as others have pointed out, it’s not a message we hear infrequently – just usually from anti-gay conservatives.
so maybe I wasn’t being so harsh after all?
I am sorry that you don’t accept me because I do not hold your points of views. Isn’t that what we are fighting against anyway. Yes I am a very conservative gay, republican actually. Doesn’t change the fact that I am gay, it just means that I have strong views and they lean to the conservative side. I don’t believe in gays in the military. I don’t believe in gay marriage. I don’t think it’s appropriate to dress like a woman if you are a man (homosexuality was removed from the Diagnostics and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1976, NOT gender identity disorders). I don’t think it’s appropriate to be in a relationship and say, “We allow others into our relationship, we have an open relationship”. I don’t think alot of things are appropriate and I feel it is these things that the world sees and groups us gay men and women in along with the lot of those who shed a negative light on our community. Now you can go ahead and whine and cry and bitch and moan but the truth of the matter is that I believe what I believe. Now you can cry about wanting your way and you can moan about people accepting you just the way you are or your can WAKE UP. I am gay and do not accept certain things that are widely accepted by the gay community or at least tolerated. All under the auspice of “They are just expressing themselves, that’s just who they are”. Not me! I think there are a lot of gay men and women who are waking up to this reality and doing something about it.
So you’re gay, but you don’t believe in your own dignity or freedom of choice, but rather that all of society should live up to whatever dictates have been seared into your conscience.
Got it.
Hi Sterling,
You’re lecturing the people on this thread about things that have nothing to do with being gay.
Not at all.
Such as promiscuity or non monogamous relationships…and there are heteros who don’t like the idea of marriage.
However, regardless of not wanting those things for themselves, they are not on a crusade, nor would engage in one that denies it for OTHERS who want and need it.
Gay people who DO want to marry, have children to secure, are monogamous and committed to serving their country and localities in uniform ARE delivering on the very values that create better things for everyone.
I have a question for you, why would things that are considered HEROIC among straight people to do, are considered the opposite when gay people do it?
The goals are the same, the RESULTS are the same, and the self respect for those involved is the same, so how can one be good when it’s straight only, and bad when gay people accomplish it?
Fair question.
Despite systemic discrimination that works against gay people accomplishing more than allowed, it’s remarkable how many manage it anyway, and not surprising and an unfair indictment if many don’t.
You’re very contradictory in so many ways. The point isn’t how YOU feel about marriage and military equality for gay people, because the straight majority agrees with you.
The point is the gay population having the same choices, regardless of being gay or whatever they feel about it, the SAME as straight people.
Being obtuse about that reality isn’t making your case.
Sterling,
I think you misunderstand what it means to be either conservative or Republican.
Interestingly, there are two organizations right now that represent gay Republicans. One is moderate and the other is very conservative.
But both favor open service in the military and marriage equality. Because both are based on principles that include equal access to civil law and freedom to achieve each person’s potential. These are conservative principles.
And as for the whining and moaning I’m hearing… well, let’s just say that no one else is saying, “you don’t accept me”
Gay’s in the military pose a security threat to the unit they are in. I know how I am treated today without being in the military. It is not a question of heroics or bravery, more a question of security. Imagine a gay soldier in war who is in a unit with some who strongly disagrees with who they are. Will they assist that person when they need it. Will they put that person in a more dangerous situation than lets say one of their buddies who is not gay. The issue is not being gay in the military but what ramifications it holds in the unit and overall operations in a war. Not that a gay man or woman cannot serve or doesnt have what it takes. As for marriage? Marriage is a biblical institution. Why would we want to align ourselves with the very faction of society that is persecuting us. To have a union with the exact same rights as those who do marry would be the ticket. I just believe that MARRIAGE was and is for a man and a woman. Period.
This is a serious argument? You could ban all manner of people from the military for the same reasons. Ban Christians. Ban atheists. Ban Muslims. Ban Republicans. Ban Democrats. Ban blacks. Any soldier who can’t tolerate being in the same unit as someone with whom he “strongly disagrees” is not fit to be a soldier.
“Not that a gay man or woman cannot serve or doesnt have what it takes.
”
So the problem is, once again, not gay people, but straight people.
Here is something I wrote to another self-hating gay man. I don’t have time to edit it to apply to just you, but if the shoe fits, wear it.
You’re a gay man– excuse me, you’re a homosexual. I would never have guessed. I just thought you were a garden variety bigot. Surprise, you are a carefully taught homosexual. And, as you know, you must be carefully taught.
so, here are two related questions for you to answer, the first of a pile of them I hope you will answer. Pulled from Boys in the Band, it seems particularly apropos, especially since you didn’t answer my previous lengthy essay directed towards you and your good buddy Dick Wood.
Why do you hate yourself so much? And why are you so invested in it? Actually, I know the answers. It’s a bird! It’s a plane! It’s Transactional Analysis!
And along the same lines, why is it so necessary to you that other gay people hate themselves as much as you do? and why, a la exodus, NARTH, and the whole of the AXIS (Anti-eX-gay-Industry-Stupidity) powers, is it necessary that people in general hate gay people, or at least deny them normal participation in society?
DADT doesn’t go far enough, in your opinion. Why? Are YOU so unfit to serve? Can YOU not be trusted in the showers? Are YOU such a misfit that you can undermine unit cohesion? Can you say “projection”? Does any of NARTH’s psychobabble include studies on THAT?
Are YOU such a danger to family, children, faith, freedom, and all that is decent and holy in the world that YOU should not be allowed to marry another man? You give yourself far more credit, and powers far beyond those of mortal men. Actually, no you don’t! NARTH does, because then they can deal with their own demons. and make money out of it to boot. And get a bit of social approval from people who would otherwise despise them. It’s a win-win-win situation, except for the victims.
Marriage is a biblical institution, as in “It is better for a man to marry than to burn?” How can you claim to be a conservative when you don’t know that marriage is a civil institution? Meaning, how can oyu know so little yet claim a title to anything htat requires some reading and some thought?
Your problem is not your homosexuality, your problem is your self hatred. Fix that, and I think your “objections” will easily give way to an improvement called OBJECTIVITY.
Here’s something for you to consider as well. I’m not gay positive because I am not objective, because I have failed to consider the garbage the AXIS powers produce in their quests to earn a living, punish themselves for who they are, or anything else. I’m gay positive because in my 59 years, I’ve seen next to nothing of the gay-negative stuff prove to be anything but plain old bigotry, whether dressed up in its Sunday-go-to-meetin’ clothes, or admitted for what it is– fear and hatred.
I will freely admit, because I am objective, that there are some things in the “gay lifestyle” that I think are bad– sexual promiscuity among SOME gay men, for example. And I say that as a former, major, big-time slut. But I love my husband and my totally monogamous marriage of seven years. I’m also objective enough to realize that the Church and the AXIS powers have spent decades, if not centuries and millennia, doing everything they can to make sure that we gay people are as marginalized, stereotyped, repressed, and as deviant-ified as possible. They’ve succeeded brilliantly with you, much to your detriment. (William’s advice that you just move on is quite good. You should follow it). Not surprisingly at all, when such major efforts are made to marginalize, the objects of the marginalization react as they are expected to. It’s just basic sociology, which I happen to have a couple of degrees in, and one of the things that taught me about– guess what?– objectivity.
Teach gay men that their lives are worthless, that they are deviants, that their lives are only about sex and sexual gratification, and that nothing else, especially true and abiding love, is possible for them. Allow them to be men and act as many men would if given the opportunity, and then act surprised and shocked– SHOCKED!!!!– that that is how they behave. The REAL surprise is that so many gay people have rejected that pernicious, vicious nonsense over the centuries, and more and more are doing so all the time. We have a whole generation that is growing up with a brand new idea– that they can live normal, fulfilled lives. Too bad you can’t. Your life would be so much better. And the Catholic church could actually be doing something for the poor, as Jesus demanded, rather than paying out billions of dollars because of its pedophile priests. Jesus said NOTHING about that.
As I’ve said in another context, the real surprise is that so many gay relationships, and gay people, succeed and thrive despite all of the social forces arrayed against them, while so many heterosexual relationships– and people– fail despite all of the social forces arrayed to support them. That alone is sufficient evidence about the innateness of homosexuality, that it is neither better nor worse than being hetero. It just IS, and THAT is objectivity for you!
I’m gay positive because I recognize a shoddy defense of flim-flam when I see it. I’m gay positive because I have seen very little in my life that supports that flim flam. And the little that does can be traced to the hatred, fear, self-loathing, and their expression and support through religious and spiritual idiocy, not through anything innately connected with being gay. There is not one true thing that could be said about gay people in general that could not be said about straight people in general except this– we prefer members of our own sex for love, sex, and romance. And even that, thanks to Ted Haggard and his ilk, is not as true as it might be. Anything after that, you’re just making it up. And what you’re making up just boils down to one of three statements: I hate queers, my religion tells me to hate queers, or anything about sex scares the living bejesus out of me.
Eliminate what is so carefully taught, and you will finally come up with a new reality– gay people will finally be no better– and no worse– than straight people.
The argument my friend is that people in this country feel strongly about homosexuality insomuch as to kill them. I think the murdering of christians has long ceased as being ok. I think the hanging of blacks is no longer looked at in a good light, right. But the feelings and emotions emitted from one that has strong emotions about another being gay is way to strong to have that conflict in out military. Yes there are a lot of things that people dont agree on but when it is a subject that has some humans going out and killing another for who they are…? Well its clear to me that the subject is not one to be wrangled over. Until the world sees us for who we are and doesnt go out and tie one of us up to a fence and beat us to death, then I say NO GAYS IN THE MILITARY. Period.
Sterling,
You are entitled to you opinions. Each of us are.
But it is my opinion that you have not carefully thought through your suppositions and are, instead, retreating to an identity that you think determines what you must believe.
Folks aren’t rejecting your views because you are conservative; they’re rejecting them because you are making pointless silly arguments in support of them.
And, just for your info…
Ending an argument with “Period.” doesn’t make it seem more true or authoritative. It only makes you seem strident, close-minded, and unwilling to consider alternate viewpoints.
Ben you babble on about nothing. I love myself and who I am. You just want your cake and eat it too. Are you too much of an idiot to see that I have no effect on the man that looks at me and says I should just kill myself because I am a waste to humanity. That I have no effect on the man who just last month threw a sign in my yard that says die faggots. YOU ARE A GODDAMN IDIOT to think that a lot of straight men would not want to see harm done to one of us. Wake up. Less than 3% of the world is gay. Where does that leave you. Standing there looking stupid. Wake the heck up folks.
Ben, talking only of Sterling’s comment that prompted your response, he does illustrate the mindset of many who end up seeking the help of ex-gay organizations or therapists. Considering the nexus of people who end up at XGW, I think it important not to be combative if they are simply telling their story or trying to illustrate what feeds the organizations we follow.
Now of course the conversation has evolved, and it does seem that Sterling is incorporating a preposterous set of claims in an argument he is apparently serious about. When called on this, he has resorted to the “you don’t accept me because I don’t believe like you” defense.
This, combined with the assumption that there is one monolithic “gay community,” and a description of the “gay scene” as involving “drugs, promiscuity, bars, clubs, and crimes” — this does leave me questioning a lot about Sterling, yes.
Ok, that’s it. You were given a huge benefit of the doubt Sterling, go troll elsewhere.
Ben, please consider the source and try not to keep this garbage going by responding too much in kind. Sterling or whoever he/she is has been moderated and so can’t respond anyway.
David, you are quite right. I did have this much to say, so I will.
Good for you. It’s not about self-hatred. The jury is probably out on that one, but I’l take your word for it.
You just want to protect us from those mean old straight people out there. So it is really just about fear. I suppose that is better than self-hatred, at least for you.
But i have a BETTER idea. Why don’t we try to educate people instead? Why don’t we stand up for ourselves? Why don’t we try to eliminate one more fear-based mindset in the world, instead of cowering in the corner hoping they won’t hit us?
Guys, please stop feeding the troll. This is a typical case of concern trolling by a heterosexual who claims to be a gay man who is so afraid for the safety of the gays.
Sterling, years ago, I was friends with a Jewish family that had newly arrived in the US from Russia.
I have known black members of my family deeply affected by Jim Crow.
In that Jewish family, their eldest boy said he hated being Jewish. Not surprising that he felt that way, the USSR made life extremely harsh on the Jewish who were not free to be educated about it, congregate or be a part of their faith culture.
That boy broke my heart when he said it.
And RIGHT AWAY, I told him what would be needed for him to heal that tear in his heart, appreciate his roots and get to know the diversity of Jewish life in our neck of Los Angeles.
I have done the same for gay youth for a lot of the same reasons.
There are some essential similarities in what one is conditioned to know, be and expect when part of one or ALL of those minorities.
Self respect is attacked and damaged DELIBERATELY.
You think you might love yourself, but you have no love or respect for OTHER GAY PEOPLE, which is just as bad or worse.
While I was talking to my young Jewish neighbor, my best girlfriend sat beside us and listened to what I told this boy, whose family we cared about. And my gf was the one who was Jewish, born in post war Romania.
But there we were, from as disparate a situation as you can imagine, and yet…thoroughly on the same page.
History, and one’s firm grasp of it will do that.
You Sterling, aren’t caught up to the rest of us. You fell WAY behind and haven’t yet appreciated that’s what happened.
You have no sense of the sort of inherent obligation one has when belonging to the groups we do who have a history of being denied their very humanity and equal status and the standards that go with them.
I’m not gay, I’m not even Jewish. But there are no gay people that have told me I don’t know what I’m talking about.
Same for Jewish people for that matter.
So it’s interesting that from a thread where the majority is gay, you’re being challenged on what you say.
You might want to consider why that is.
See majorities have been exceptionally wrong before when it’s come to understanding what civil equality means. Especially to those traditionally denied before.
Equality, and justice have an acceptable, exceptionally righteous and socially moral LEGACY that systemic bigotry and civil discrimination never have.
Consider that too, more than Biblical interpretation, more than ideology that demands it’s power come at the very expense of equality and how little time gays and lesbians have had in owning their identity for themselves.
Even if you feel not so obligated to support other gay people, and if you’re going to get in YOUR own way, fine.
But you better get the f**k out of the way of other gay folks.
Otherwise, it puts you in a position you’ll hate even more later on.
Another thought.
I think what I’m trying to say is, Sterling…
I know it’s hard to live as a gay person. But if you don’t have enough brass to step up, at least say THAT, instead of denigrating those who do and calling it something else.
It takes a LOT of courage in some quarters to be an unapologetic gay person who is fighting the status quo.
If gay soldiers didn’t step up, and BIGOTRY were allowed to prevail over honesty in uniform, then that would be very wrong.
And NOTHING towards the better would be accomplished, would it?
I sit here a black woman supremely grateful to my family and all the other black people who took whatever risks, indignity and so on that I could be free to be who I am.
And I’ll be damned if I’ll sit and enjoy it, while gay folks take these same risks and indignities without ME putting the time in.
I know some people aren’t born or understand being an activist or what might be asked of them.
But you putting down those that DO carry on without running from the challenges that get tough isn’t right, let alone forgivable and forgettable.
And doing it in front of the very people who CAUSE and maintain homophobia in the first place is another wrong piled on.
And I shouldn’t be the one that had to tell you.
“Gay’s in the military pose a security threat to the unit they are in. I know how I am treated today without being in the military. It is not a question of heroics or bravery, more a question of security.”
Uh. So you’re saying the Israeli army is weaker than ours? Or you’re saying that the thousands of American servicemembers who ALREADY serve openly pose a threat? My military family would argue back, but we’re currently laughing.
“Marriage is a biblical institution. Why would we want to align ourselves with the very faction of society that is persecuting us.”
Wrong. Marriage predates the Adam & Eve myth. By several thousand years, actually.
That’s all the response necessary. The troll is most likely not an actual gay man, but a self-hating wingnut. Hell, it could be David Benkof, crawling out from under some rock. Have you checked IPs?
Let’s drop it please, whoever it was can’t respond and all this is way OT anyway. Thank you.
“You think you might love yourself, but you have no love or respect for OTHER GAY PEOPLE, which is just as bad or worse.”
Worth the price of admission right there, Regan.