In a piece called “Ministry to Gay Students,” Shawn Harrison of Exodus Youth goes the extra mile to portray condescension and religious supremacism as compassion. He also believes that the Bible is inerrant.
First we get the compassion part:
There is no question that high schools and middle schools across this nation are ground zero for students who face peer pressure, bullying, low self-esteem, depression, and the like. One of the most disturbing of these is bullying… …and occasionally ends with students getting beat up, receiving death threats, missing school, changing schools, and in some cases, even attempting suicide.
On his 611 ministries website/blog, he even shares that he attempted suicide:
I hated my high school years… …walking through the halls and enduring my new lifestyle was enough to bring me to suicide – which was attempted a few times.
Back to the EY article:
This article is not calling to accept behavior that clashes with Biblical beliefs, rather it’s calling for Christians (especially those who are youth workers) to take a stand against bullying, and start teaching the truth about sharing God’s unconditional love with those who think they are undeserving of such love.
The way that sentence is written, it seems unclear as to whether he thinks it’s the bullies who don’t feel they are worthy of God’s love, or gay students, or both. But as evidenced throughout the article, it becomes clear that it’s gay students who supposedly think they are “undeserving” of God’s unconditional love.
Mr. Harrison then lifts two quotes—without giving credit or link—from of all places, GLSEN’S 2007 National School Climate Survey (PDF):
[Shawn Harrison:] Read what two students write about their current school experience:Male Student – 11th grade
“I have learned that harassment in schools is a norm. Kids would scream the term ‘faggot’ as they saw me in the halls. None of the teachers said a word, and that is what scared me. I don’t feel safe at my school because I’m gay.”Female Student – 12th grade
[Shawn Harrison:] As a gay teen in high school, I can clearly identify with both students.
“I stayed home because everyone hated me so much that it made me hate myself, and I thought there was something completely wrong with me. I missed almost three weeks in a row to avoid seeing the other students.”
We then get the “all bullying is equal” canard:
Whether students are gay, have braces, wear glasses, or do not act manly/feminine enough, bullying (harassment) of any kind is wrong and damaging.
Last I checked, there wasn’t a concerted religious effort to define the wearing of braces and/or glasses as a “behavior that clashes with Biblical beliefs”.
This very article of his encourages youth workers to see gay students as prodigals:
“most gay teens have unhealthy relationships”
“same-sex attraction is mainly about broken relationships between the sexes”.
And what anti-gay sentiment would be complete without the balancing effect of the ever innocuous “Truth in love”:
I fully believe we are to love in truth… …just as Jesus exemplified. This type of authentic love goes beyond the cliché: “hate the sin, love the sinner.”
—
Besides, whenever Christians use the cliché: “hate the sin, love the sinner,” the only thing the gay community hears is HATE. That is not the message of the gospel – LOVE is.
There is good reason why many of us only hear the word “HATE,” Mr. Harrison. Your slanderous assertions above are one example. But perhaps one of the better reasons is that you and your anti-gay affiliates are willing to overlook the sin of bullying and harassment, for the sake of highlighting what you consider to be the sin of identifying as LGB or T.
Authentic love looks past the person’s faults, and looks into their hearts.
The subtext here, whether intentional or not, is that same-gender attraction is not of the heart. Thus, our human-sexuality is merely a superfluous “fault” to be looked past. This, Mr. Harrison, would have us believe is authentic love.
As the Bible says:
Matthew 7:4: How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
Seeing a non-existent fault, is a fault.
Onto the proselytization of gay youth:
The most important issue is this: does the [gay] student have a relationship with Christ?
The next important issue, once the student has accepted Christ, is this: how are they nurturing their relationship with Christ?
If he/they were serious about saving the supposedly unrepentant lost, they would start by attempting to convert the bullies, not their victims.
Further, youth workers are to “teach about all sin, not just the-gay-verses; God hates all sin, and no sin is higher than another.”
If he, et al, really believed that, then the eradication of homosexuality wouldn’t be at the top of their list.
And finally, under the heading of “The Student,” we get several examples of the whole “The opposite of homosexuality isn’t heterosexuality, it’s holiness” song and dance. Here’s just one example:
Let me first say, the overall result is not to become a manly/womanly heterosexual, getting married, or having kids. The overall result is simply this: to seek after God’s identity.
Oh, and btw:
Nothing creates more damage to one’s soul than a peer constantly referring to you as an adjective (faggot) rather than as a person. Just because a student is gay or lesbian does not mean that they have to be constantly reminded of it.
Unless you’re defining LGBT youth as unrepentant sinners. Then you can write articles to influence others to remind them of it every Christian chance they get.
There are reasons why we have age of consent laws, to protect the vulnerable. Choosing to live a physically and emotionally chaste life is one thing, but unnecessarily foisting, what amounts to be the priesthood, onto the dependant, impressionable, and powerless among us, is nothing short of ABUSE.
And calling it religion doesn’t make it any less criminal.
I have read through this piece of Shawn Harrison’s, and I’m still trying to get the hang of it; its slippery language doesn’t help. However, so far as I have understood it, this is what it is saying:
(1) If you’re a gay or lesbian student, your objective shouldn’t be to become straight. That just might conceivably happen, but it’s not something that you should expect. Instead you need to get rid of a “gay identity”, to “walk away from unwanted same-sex attractions”. In other words, you will very likely need to spend the rest of your life pretending not to be the kind of person that you are.
Now as soon as I say that, of course, the answer will probably come back at me like a boomerang: “Your sexual orientation doesn’t define who you are.” No, it doesn’t, but it is still an integral part of your personality, and it will be at a heavy price that you will spend your life trying to bury it.
(2) It is also apparently implied that a relationship with God/Christ will relieve you of the need for a gay relationship. It won’t. As the Irish priest Fr Bernard Lynch so sagely observed, Holy Communion is not a substitute for human communion.
It’s an absolute disgrace that in this enlightened year of 2009, and in a civilized country, bullying of GLBT students should still be going on. But I fail to see how the “help” offered by Exodus Youth will provide any solution to this problem, nor does Shawn Harrison attempt to tell us how; on the contrary, it seems clear to me that such spiritual abuse will just be another problem added to the existing one. Frankly, I think that the whole thing is pernicious.
You know…
There is always something rather creepy about an (obviously) bisexual and bent 30 year old man with a (claimed) history of being sexually abused who then goes on to spend his career working in ‘gay youth ministry outreach’.
Just pointing that out. Not making a specific comment, or nuthin.
But one thing seems obvious — the very last thing this Exodus twerp would do is put any of his charges in contact with a sane, monogamous and contended gay couple.
Because, of course, we don’t exist. Or shouldn’t.
Exodus Youth… religiopaedophilia: molestation of a different kind.
I’m not even going to comment on his awareness of, and use of, a form of anti-gay abuse to promote his own version of anti-gay abuse. Contemptible. Burn in hell type contemptible.
He says he went through it himself, but he seems more inclined to blame the victim and talk about the victim’s “sins”. “Sins” of the lips or genitalia, or even just the brain, trump sins of the fists and feet. Where are these ministries’ outreaches to bullies, attempts to teach about the sinfulness of bullying, exhortations to love a bullying person though they act unlovable, etc?
I have theories. None put Exodus or their supporters in a good light. And I keep thinking, “Gods help the kids this guy deals with, ’cause he won’t.”
Well done, Patrick! I don’t know that I would’ve had the spirit in my to conquer this topic.
As a former youth minister who has worked with countless number of youth in the many years where I worked in the church, I can say that there are PLENTY of heterosexual teens who have bad relationships as well. I used to be an advocate of the idea that “all you need is God” and human relationships are secondary (referred to be a previous commenter), but now I shake my head at how ridiculous that belief is. The reality that my evangelical friends fail to see (having been one of them, I’m most intimately aware of this) is that something is defined as a sin because it is inherently destructive to relationships and people. The reason you “hate the sin” is because of what it does to the person or to relationships, not because it is some supposed rule that is being violated. Homosexual relationships simply don’t fit this criteria and, unlike something like alcoholism or drug abuse or even gossip for that matter, one’s sexual orientation is part of who they are. Contrary to their platitudes you cannot except a teenager who is gay without excepting their sexual orientation. Until they get past their legalistic understanding of sin then they won’t be able to do what is truly Christian and that’s love people like they need to be loved.
I find Shawn Harrison’s presumption that the bully has correctly identified the gay student strange. Not all of the kids who are suffering from anti-gay bullying to the point of thinking about suicide are in fact gay.
Since Shawn Harrison doesn’t really care to combat bullying, I’m guessing that he doesn’t really care about the welfare of straight kids any more than he cares about gay kids.
When it comes to bullying, I think Shawn Harrison and so many others on the Religious Right just see it as something they can take advantage. Torture and harrass the kid enough and he or she might be desperate enough to believe the snake oil pitch of the likes of Harrison.
Harrison gets to play “good cop,” while the bullies get to play “bad cop.” He’s just bullying by different means.
That’s one thing that these Exodus people don’t get. Anti-gay bullying happens to ANYBODY. It doesn’t matter if you are actually same-sex attracted. If you are different, you can be called out for being gay. It doesn’t matter what you are.
So, Exodus Youth: How exactly would ministering them to be “straight” help them stop being bullied for being “gay” if they AREN’T gay??
Hi,
Thanks for everyone’s responses and questions. If I may, I want to just say some things, and then I will post again “answers” to your questions.
First, this article was about helping youth workers create a safe place for gay students within youth ministries.
Second, I bring up bullying – from all aspects, but particularly against gay students – because it is heartless and unjustified. I am 100% against any type of bullying – ask any student that has been in any of my youth ministries over the past 12 years.
Third, I am sorry for not giving credit to GLSEN’s piece, I will correct this on my sight. I had every intention to do so, it was an honest mistake. Sorry.
Fourth, if you have any direct questions, please feel free to email me and I will be happy to respond back.
Since I don’t have internet at home, you will have to wait till tomorrow until I can post my “rebuttal” to each one who has submitted a comment.
Shawn
Good points. I mean just think what could happen to these poor straight kids who becomes victims of gay bullying. They may grow up thinking they are gay, with an enforced false set of opinions about being gay, and then talks about it, giving testimonies such as “I was a bullied young gay boy when I was in high school”.
And what if these straight kids were sexually abused? Have distant fathers and overbearing mothers? Or worse, have some experimental sex? All the bullying with words like “faggot” would probably convince the straight student that they are in a gay life, and that all of the above becomes their “truth”.
So do not be suprised if years from now those straight students with that experience would have “changed” after marrying the opposited sex, head some division of an ex-gay ministry and then mentioning they are “still struggling with the gay part”. It may be because the wrong problem was addressed. And they continue to live on wrong identities.
After much thought and prayer last night, I have decided not to “fight back” in regards to the comments made about the above article and about my personal life.
I can understand where some confusion may have come from – about the theme of the article – but my intent of this piece was to focus on one main idea: educating youth workers on creating a safe place for gay students within a given youth ministry.
This article is not about bullying (directly), though after what has been said, I will be writing another article about this issue (bullying and the sin of it).
I have written this article from a Christian/Biblical perspective, according to my understanding and convictions. This article is intended for youth workers, like myself, who work with all types of students, in particularly gay students.
Again, if anyone has any questions, feel free to email me.
Shawn
I’m glad you came to that conclusion, Shawn.
You talk about how it’s bad to bully kids who wear glasses or braces. Is your solution in this case to tell kids to do without these things and just go around half-blind with crooked teeth? Or tell them and their parents they have to pony up for contacts (even if they do irritate the kid’s eyes) and Invisaligns if they have any hope of being accepted? Or would you instead be talking to the bully and his/her parents about leaving that kid alone and not picking on someone because they look a bit different?
I bet what you’d be doing in the glasses/braces/pimples/fat/skinny scenarios would be far closer to what LGBT kids and gender-atypical kids need, too.
Wasn’t it Jesus who said something to the effect of treating your neighbor as you would like to be treated as the highest commandment (along with honoring God)?
I fail to see how any Christian/Biblical perspective would not focus on protecting the weak and vulnerable, and stopping the bullying to begin with. I guess the “Christian/Biblical perspective” requires that you start by ignoring Jesus’ message.
I find it quite offensive to write this man off. I am sure that in many youth groups, gays are not accepted. The nature of this article was not to address bullying per se, but instead to address an issue of acceptance. Youth groups should be much more accepting of LGB teens, and youth workers must know how to handle the problems that the teen goes through. Shawn, by letting the youth workers know that LGB teens are much more persecuted in school, is allowing the youth worker to prepare for more issues.
I am sure that this man would no doubt condemn bullying. But this article is merely to inform that LGB teens often carry a much heavier burden. It is quite bold for him to state that the youth worker must look beyond hating the sin. This statement is in line with many of the other comments. One must forget what they may see as a sin (as I am sure most Christian youth workers do) and love, not to change, but for the sake of love.
So Austin, do you think that Christian youth group leaders should oppose programs designed to stop bullying against LGBT students and the children of gay parents in schools?
What sort of message does it send when youth group leaders oppose protecting LGBT students and the children of gay parents in schools?
John,
I don’t oppose any such programs that bring to light the “sin of bullying” and calls for Christians to stand side by side gay classmates (children of gay parents) in regards to equal protection – especially in schools.
The Day of Silence … awesome day of awareness. Gay/Straight Alliances … great idea.
I would hope that the non-Christian would respect the beliefs of the Christian, just as I hope the Christian would respect the beliefs of the non-Christian.
Austin … thanks for the “high-five” man, you hit it on the head.
Shawn
Beneath the belief that sexual behavior between members of the same gender is sinful lies the belief in the nature of sin itself.
Jesus gave us the measure to which sin is to be judged:
Biblical “inerrancy” notwithstanding, if two people of the same gender are in love (whether you consider that delusional or not), and they choose to express that love sexually, how does that break the ultimate commandment to love Love-itself (God) first, and by extension, love others as one’s self?
Patrick, I think John 14:15 answers that question fairly well. Loving God means following His commandments.
Now, we can disagree about whether or not there is really a commandment against gay sex, but I don’t think your view of the “ultimate commandment” really works. In order to love God with our hearts, souls, and minds, we must try our best to follow His commandments.
The background of loving God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength (the greatest commandment) simply means this: to love God 100% with 100%, wholeheartedly. This means His entire character, His values, His Word/Law … everything.
To love God 100% is to obey His standards, through the Grace and Mercy of Jesus, as best as we can.
God doesn’t call for perfection, He simply calls for obedience. I’m no where near perfect, but I’m trying the best I can to walk in His balance of loving people with truth.
Now we can disagree with what I believe to be truth verses what you believe to be truth; but there is one (absolute) truth that can not be argued: God loves us – no matter what – and He wants His children to walk in the freedom of His Spirit, verses walking in the ways of the world.
Patrick,
To answer your question, it would not be sin. Shawn and other evangelicals like to answer the question of what loving God means by saying “it involves keeping his commandments” so that they can pick and choose which commandments to enforce. Now, to be fair, a lot of them do this unconciously, but I know for me, that once I realized I was doing it, I could not live with my inconsistency anymore. The passage you quoted gives the answer within itself as to what loving God is and that is loving people. Now, to show that, I quote Paul who said the same thing:
“Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” (Romans 13:8-10)
So, you, Paul, and Jesus all agree! LOL. As long as I am loving other people, then I am loving God. Again, putting “inerrancy” aside, if I want to know how I can love God in my life, I simply have to ask myself this one question: “Am I loving my neighbour as myself?” If I am, then I can know I’m loving God because “the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is faith expressing itself in love.” (Galatians 5:6).
But if your belief in God is based solely on the Bible, then citing the Bible to confirm your belief in God, is circular logic.
The question then becomes, what is the criteria used in your determination that Bible is inerrant (ie, God’s offical Word)?
What happens to your faith in God, in the face of Biblical error?
Or perhaps, more accurately, what is the link between your belief in God and your belief in Biblical inerrancy?
For the sake of qualification, why would God specify a commandment not to kill, and then design the sin of killing—via crucifixion—to fulfill salvation?
And then, why would God plague we confused humans with this particular conundrum?
Patrick (and Tom),
I would love to get into this discussions, but I don’t think that XGW would appreciate the conversation.
I would be more than happy to discuss these things via email, though. You can reach me at: 611ministries at gmail dot com.
Shawn
Patrick, if you’re interested, I think there are several books of theology and Christian apologetics that you can find out there. I can answer the question about why God would use a sin as a method to fulfill salvation, though. Because Christ literally had to become a curse — that is, become sin — for the full wrath of God to be brought upon Him. And only if that full wrath came upon Him could He be considered a way to salvation for anyone else.
Shawn, Patrick asked some good questions which I think should be answered in the open. While I accept that you might have been trying to keep overly religious and Christian discussion off the thread, it would seem appropriate here. Please continue to respond on the thread.
Jay said:
Ugh, our plugin must have default to King James, lol. You didn’t exactly answer Patrick’s question, you just quoted another verse. Why is your verse more important than his, or how do they work together to say something else? IOW, cherry picking verses can be done for hours and, with popcorn, can even be fun, but it’s not a useful way to convey biblical concepts. Can you reply with something a bit more meaningful?
When I have a 20-page thesis on Hemingway’s The Sun Also Rises to write, a GRE to study for, and grad school applications to fill out…
Sadly not. It’s not that I wouldn’t like to engage in a discussion, and I understand that my answers have been short, but I simply don’t have the time or energy to engage in too much right now, which is why I think Patrick can find some Christian apologetics on his own.
Dave,
Thanks for the open invitation to respond. I wanted to check before I over stepped the sites guidelines.
Patrick … I will take your questions/comments in sections:
My belief/faith is not centered solely on the Bible, rather on God Himself – the fullness of His Character. The Bible is a means to further convey God’s heart and mission to the nations, especially for those who are called His sons and daughters. I believe that it was given by God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to people He ordained to write down His will for us, His children (2 Peter 1:16-21, Luke 24:44-45).
I do believe that the God’s Word is without error (Isaiah 40:7-8, Isaiah 55:11). There may be some grammatical errors in some translations – which is the fault of man – but overall, I believe that what God has said from the beginning, He still speaks forth to us today. This is my personal conviction, after spending many years in study about it.
My faith in God, as said before, stands strong because of what I have seen and experienced of God in my life and in the lives around me. If the Bible were to pass away from existence today – which I don’t think will happen – my faith would still stand firm on what God has spoken into my life (through His promises), on what He has spoken over me (through others), and from His Spirit’s revelation about who God is and who I am in Christ.
I love God’s word and I strive to be obedient to it each day … but I love God more, and I strive for His likeness more each day. The two go hand in hand; but the Bible is not the desire of my heart or the object of my worship, God is.
I believe as Christians we are called to follow God’s Word, because we are in essence following the heart/will of our Father for our lives. Going back to a previous question about love and commands … I firmly believe that God’s love is supreme over anything else, and that this is one of our highest callings as His children (to love Him and others). But in saying that, and there are tons of scripture to back this up, we are also called to follow His voice (His Word), if we truly confess that we love Him (read 1 John).
Here’s a question: is it possible to really love someone but totally ignore what they ask you to do, because they don’t want to see you face the pains of life?
For the sake of presenting a bad word-picture … imagine your a little kid living with God. There is no doubt that you love your Father. You both live at an intersection between two extremely busy highways. Across the way is a huge playground with the coolest play things. There is one way to get over to the playground, but you need God (your Father) to help you get across. He has warned you not to cross the street by yourself because you will get hit by an oncoming vehicle. He has put a fence around the yard to help you stay safe. You decide that you can’t wait for Him to take you across the way, so you hop the fence and attempt to cross the street. Halfway through the street you get hit by a car – you’re not dead but you have two broken legs and in need of extensive surgery. God cares for you back to health but pleads with you not to try that stunt again. A few months later, the same thing happens … and this keeps happening because deep down inside you don’t really trust His judgments and ways.
The fence illustrates God’s Word – it’s meant to help us stay on track and out of danger. The fact that you (the kid) keeps running out into the street illustrates our sinful nature – we are in constant rebel to our Father, not because we don’t love Him per-se but because we think we know whats best for us.
God comes back to us, though, and says, “If you really did love Me, you would have listened to My warnings and not have done what I asked you not to do.” God’s Word is not to trap us in legalism – THAT IS a wrong way to take His Word – but rather His Word is to help us walk in the light as He is in the light (Psalm 119:105, 1 John 1:7-10).
Now I probably went off topic a bit, but I hope it makes sense. What are your thoughts?
Shawn
Even when I was a kid, I would read the Bible judging the stories and messages against my own values. The most basic value is to treat others well.
So when I read about slavery or slaughters or any number of other things that I find absolutely repugnant, I don’t view those things as ordained by God. I see them as creations of man. Perhaps they are there as a negative example, but the more likely reason is that they were standard operation practice at the time the Bible was written and nobody thought very much about those on the short end of the stick.
God did not write the Bible. Hell, he didn’t even write the 10 Commandments (they were written by Moses). So from the first word to the last word, man has written the Bible. It may or may not have been inspired by God, but I doubt God made any specific proofreading corrections. If it was written by man, it cannot be perfect. If it is not perfect, it cannot be God’s direct work.
I am sure that others will disagree with me, but I have honestly felt this way since grammar school. I was raised Catholic, where there isn’t quite the emphasis on each and every line of the Bible. More of a general gestalt about the underlying message and what it means in your daily life.
John,
I beg to differ about the Ten Commandments and the Bible …
Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:16, Exodus 34:1, Exodus 34:28 (all verses)
2 Timothy 3:16
Shawn
From what I get from Shawn’s message is that if you don’t act “gay” the bullying will stop. This reminds me of the first time I served on jury duty. It was a woman who was raped by a man. While she was the true victim in the crime, it was the woman was on trial. The main message in that court room was that if she had not dressed a certain way and had not been at a certain place at a certain time, then she wouldn’t have been raped. I was amazed at how many bought into this type of logic.
I’ve always loved the hymn “Just as I am” because it talks about approaching God with warts and all. We all approach God with our good and bad, but we come as we are, not how we should be or how we think God wants us to be. I have a deep problem with any faith community that requires a conversion before they will embrace someone. Their ushers act more like guards at the door.
About the Bible … to put it in a nut shell, whether one believes it is an inspired work or just the work of human hands, the bottom line is that it is a book about the human experience, and in the human expericence there are good things and bad things. For Christians, our focus is on Christ whose message is about love. If we are truly Christian we follow our leader, aka “Christ,” who gives us an example of “good.” Then when we read the Bible we can determine what is an example of “good” and what is an example of what is “bad.”
Bullying is bad, period. It is not a person’s fault if they are the victim. But bullying won’t stop as long as adult Christians model this type of bullying. When Christians act like Christians and model Christ’s love for others instead of spending millions of dollars to oppress people by denying them the right to be with the one they love…when Christians stop screaming from their pulpits that gays are God’s supposed one and only abomination … when Christians stop “hating the sin and loving the sinner” which is really “hating gay sex and judging those who do it” … in other words, when Christians really start acting like Christians, then, and maybe then, will their children stop bullying.
Shawn, I believe this was the point of Patrick’s circular reasoning comment, which, to be honest, I don’t think you really addressed in your response. Quoting scripture to prove that scripture is inerrant is, by definition, a circular argument. At the end of the day, one must accept that none of that makes any sense without a large component of faith, which is basically believing something for which one has no demonstrable proof (that’s rather the point I would think).
Even a great many Christian sects do not accept that scripture is inerrant, so your stance in this discussion will come across as pure dogma to some, or perhaps at best parochial to others. To simply say that you accept that it is inerrant because of your faith would seem to be a more genuine response, wouldn’t you agree?
Shawn, pace your religious faith and reading of the Bible etc, but you are being completely circular. That’s almost never very helpful by way of explanation.
> You are too, Jay, BTW! Could you recommend, say, a Hindu or Tao source for support? 🙂
As you’ve also mentioned that it wouldn’t matter if the Bible up and vanished… (implying, therefore, that whatever is writ is not untimately that which is important to you) …
Can I ask you two questions that hopefully will get past all this — why do you attribute certain events in your life to God (and more specifically, the Christian one)? What events are you talking about?
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SIDE TRACK
you accept that it is inerrant because of your faith would seem to be a more genuine response
I’d certainly agree David — and nothing wrong with that, per se, as you’ve also said before. People can believe all sorts of rather exceptional things on faith alone. Bully for them. But this mention of Moses etc reminds me once again of the (I find mildly droll) selection of “Exodus” as the name of an organisation whose claims are based on sheer vapour.
To put it mildly, the Exodus account is unbelievable as fact. Completely unsupported by any other source, let alone simple common sense. One may add in the parallel account in Numbers etc for good measure.
The very idea of 600,000 adult male slaves, their families, their flocks, grain, clothing, pots and pans and musical instruments — say, 2 million plus people — waltzing off from Egypt and spending 40 years wandering around the Sinai … and this event not being noticed by anyone else alive at the time seems to me to be rather impossible, and frankly absurd in any literal sense.
Particularly regards the Egyptians, who were notorious record keepers in the day and surely would have noticed that half the population — their working slaves — had gone AWOL overnight … but, no, they didn’t. Collective amnesia on account of them plagues?
Absurd, unless, of course, the Torah and (the hence the biblical) account is partly an origin myth, partly symbolic, partly an arrogant claim to fame. Hey, We had to come up with some excuse for invading other people’s land and driving them from it or enslaving them: We’re The Chosen People. And now it’s all ours for ever and ever. From that perspective, I get it. We all do it, at some level.
Actually, come to think of it… maybe “Exodus” is the right name for that organisation. Both seem largely based (with close inspection) on self-serving testimony that most often simply doesn’t add up.
But then, as with the biblical account, perhaps it isn’t meant to either. My brain hurts.
It should be noted that Shawn doesn’t speak for me or my beliefs. I didn’t answer Patrick’s questions in detail because I simply don’t have time for another long blog debate these days. Knowing my schedule, I shouldn’t have said anything to start with, and I apologize for that. I do accept the Bible and its infallibility on faith alone, though. Logic and reason may help one live consistently within a certain religious structure (which is why there are multiple branches of theology and various denominations), but the foundational beliefs — that there is a God and that the Bible was written by Him — are completely based on faith, at least for me.
Didn’t the biblical stories all exist in oral form long before they were written down? And weren’t the Gospels written long after Jesus died?
My how this conversation has gone from it’s original intent … which is fine with me. I am enjoying the conversation.
(Dave) I’m not sure how else you want me to express my views about God’s Word. Without a doubt, faith plays a major role in believing that scripture is infallible and inerrant – which is what my stances/convictions are based from. In Patrick’s answer, I was simply giving scripture to help support what I was saying. The totality of God’s Word (from Genesis to Revelation) speaks infallible/inerrant truth. Now anyone can take out a single verse, out of its context, and imply that this particular verse is found in error, or that it conflicts with another verse and therefore both verses are found in error. An example would be Paul talking about faith alone saving a person over works, while James speaks about doing good works in order to show one’s faith being acceptable. What needs to be remembered is that scripture is interpreted by scripture. In this light, we can see/know that both Paul and James are right: we are saved by faith, and an outward sign of our faith in Christ is seen through the actions we do (or don’t do).
I believe God’s Word to be true (infallible and inerrant) because of my experiences through life – my faith. This is my personal conviction and what I have chosen to build my relationship with Christ around.
When I was answering John’s statement about God not writing anything in the Bible, I was simply showing (through scripture) proof that He did in fact write what has been written – especially the 10 Commandments. I realize that some of my arguments are “circled”, but this is what I believe. As I said above, I totally agree that my faith is grounded in just that: faith. Some things I can not explain … I am not infallible … I am not God. That’s where faith comes in and helps me to keep walking forward.
(Grantdale) I’m sorry but I was not implying that we get rid of the Bible, or that we don’t need the Bible. What I was implying, though, was that my faith in God stands upon what He has done in my life – what He has done for me … that IF the Bible were to disappear, I would still have a firm foundation beneath me on which I stand and walk.
In answering your questions, could you be a little more specific on what you’re asking? Are you talking about experiences in my faith journey … in walking away from my “gay life” … all of it … or what? I can say, that I attribute who I am today to God because of what He has physically/spiritually/emotionally done for me and through me. There is no other reason (to me) to explain what has happened in my life, and where I am today in life, apart from saying that it was God. I owe Him everything I am and have, because all of it has come from His gracious hand in the first place. His unconditional grace and kindness drives my love for Him – each day.
Why the “Christian” God? Because I believe in One God – the God – and that all others (like Buddha and Mohammad, etc) are false gods. THIS IS MY BELIEF … if you don’t accept that, fine, that’s your belief. But I firmly believe in the God of the Old and New Testament, the One who has created all things, the One who sent His Son to die for our sins, the One who calls us His own, and the One who sits upon the Throne as Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
(Alan S) your comment:
I totally agree with! Please re-read my article. Where I do I give the impression or state that gay students must convert before being accepted into a youth ministry – let alone the Church?
My intent of this article – written for Christian youth workers – was to help “straight-minded” pastors better understand how to embrace and minister to those who are gay and lesbian. My words come from a conservative-Christian perspective, and as one who was threatened in school because I was a gay teen.
Youth Ministry books are all filled with how to minister to “straight” kids … hardly any are geared towards ministering to gay students. I am trying to educate youth pastors on how to do such ministry.
(in general) What a lot of this comes down to is this: I believe what I believe because of what I have found to be tried and true. I am not here to shove my beliefs down anyone’s throat. You asked, and I answered. But my beliefs are mine. I have not come against anyone’s personal beliefs here on this site – though I could, I won’t. Because that’s not the point. In the end, we will all agree on this point: neither of us are going to change the others belief. Only God and the working of the Holy Spirit’s conviction can do that.
Now … I would like to ask some “other” questions, in reference to reaching out to gay students. From what I have gathered, there are issues with the tips I have given in my article. So tell me, how does a straight-minded youth pastor minister to gay students that attend his/her youth ministry? How does the youth pastor approach the student in talking about God – if the student is not a Christian? How does the youth pastor not compromise his personal beliefs in reaching out to the student(s)? How does the youth pastor help his other students (straight ones) embrace the gay students?
Feel free to add any other input too.
Jay,
I’m sorry if it felt that I was speaking for you … I wasn’t. But I agree with what you say.
John,
In answer to your questions, yes all the stories of the Bible were in oral form until they were written down. Though this was mainly found in the Old Testament, that is until Moses started writing down (the first 5 books of the Bible).
In reference to the gospels …. all of the books of the New Testament were written within 30 years of Jesus dying and rising again (at the most). Which means that many eye witnesses to the events described in the New Testament were still alive, and they would have called “Foul” if error was found in what was written, right?
Calling “foul” on biblical errors has gotten so very many people killed over the years.
…except that we don’t have copies of those “within 30 years at most” gospels. Our earliest copies date from the 4th century, and most secular scholars date Paul’s letters as being the earliest writings, from I think about 50-60 CE.
Like others have said before, you need to take the age of the Christian Scriptures as being eye-witness accounts on faith rather than secular proof. I thought such secular things weren’t important to evangelical Christians, anyway.
Shawn,
You may be applying modern standards of health to biblical times. 30 years after the death of Jesus, many of his contemporaries would have been in their 50’s, 60’s and 70’s. While some folks might have lived a long time, I would doubt that the most people in that period lived that long.
Shawn, I was a youth minister at a point in time where I was going to reparative therapy to try and “go straight.” I was a conservative, inerrantist at the time ministering in an independent Baptist church and strongly believed the Bible to prohibit any type of same sex activity. The way I instructed my kids to relate to those in their schools who were gay was that they should love them the way they would love a gossiping, cheating, lying, unforgiving, or unkind person. In other words, accept them into full fellowship like you would anyone else who “struggled” with another “sin” and introduce them to the love of Christ and then allow the Holy Spirit to work on their hearts about what needs to be changed. At the time I would have told the students to be honest about what they believed if asked, but that they needed to make certain to those gay and lesbian students that being gay is between them and God and that they realized it wasn’t their place to make that decision for them. Furthermore, I made clear to them to let those students know that one did not have to give up their “gayness” in order to become a disciple of Christ. The point I’m trying to make with you is that I refused to make a particular sin an issue in a person’s life, but simply brought them to the point of knowing how much God loves them and let the Spirit do the work that He needed to do at the time He thought best to do it. The most important thing was their understanding how much God loved them exactly the way they were. Full acceptance the same way we would offer it to any other person even if they didn’t believe their gossip, lying, etc. was a sin.
Now I know other evangelicals who would have condemned me at the time, but that is what I as a “straight-minded” minister did. Now if I had been asked by a gay student what the Bible said, I would have responded by taking your position and then try to explain why I thought it was a sin (reparative drive for unmet emotional needs, the flesh’s way of meeting the unmet need, etc.) and would have let the student know that I accept them fully even if they decided to remain living as a gay person. The mistake that I would have made at the time was not informing them that this was not an undisputed fact of theology and that many other Christians did not see it as a sin. The fact of the matter is that a minister should always tell the truth and that includes the fact that not all Christian believe the same thing. I was too proud at the time to see that the issue wasn’t as clear-cut as I would have liked to think it was and that I was making a mountain out of a mole-hill and that’s exactly what making a big deal about the issue is. Now, today, even if I believed being gay was a sin, I wouldn’t get defensive and preachy about it because the things I should get preachy about are things like reaching the poor with food, clothing, etc, since the Bible mentions that over 3000 times compared to six for homosexuality (that is, granting you they are actually prohibitions). I know coming from your experiences that it would be difficult to state your position and then say that other Christians disagree and that’s okay, but as a minister you cannot keep the truth from someone simply because you’re afraid they will exercise a choice that is contrary to what you think they “should” do. Don’t make this issue a stumbling block for a person who wants to seek out a relationship with God (And being a student of hermenutics you should know that the law of emphasis states that what is emphasized by the biblical authors is suppossed to be what God wanted emphasized. So you weigh it as to what God is more concerned about – and the one you should be too – Is it the issue with 3000 mentions or the one with six?).
Now, obviously I don’t believe being gay is a sin any more since no one is being hurt by it, but I wanted to share with you what I used to do because I believe it was the most gracious response a person who had my theology could possibly have. And since it is still your theology, it is the most gracious response you could have as well. Respect the right of each person to decide before God how they understand the Bible on this issue and for those who wish to be celibate, then assist them in that journey, but for those who in good faith believe the Bible says something different, don’t make their agreeing with you on this issue a litmus test for fellowship, since that is clearly not the way Christ loved “sinners.” From one former minister (and perhaps future one) to a current one: don’t make anymore hate the name of Christ simply because of your strong feelings on this one issue. Remember, I too have had a strong encounter with God where I feel He led me to accept my sexuality, so who’s experience should we go by? NEITHER! To assert your experience as the way others should experience it will unavoidably cause divisions. Again, I know it’s emotionally difficult to do it because of how personal your experience was, but the strong minister will realize that his experience is his experience and will focus on that which unifies the body in the bond of peace and that is love (Ephesians 4) and let the student or whoever determine through their own study which position to take before the Lord. It’s not that you can’t present your case and your experience and your side of the issue. It’s just that you should allow them to be fully informed of both sides and decide for themselves and not let it be the sina qua non of the Christian life. That’s my honest heart on it and I hope something I’ve said helps you to be more effective in your ministry. God Bless.
Shawn:
Showing love and compasion never compromises one’s personal beliefs unless their personal belief is that the one they are helping has to conform to their doctrines. Take the case of Mother Theresa. When she preached the Gospel, she did so as Christ would do, by showing mercy and love and denying no one. She did not hold a spoon full of food in someone’s face and ask them, “Are you going to be a Christian?” And then deny them food if they said no. She never compromised her faith by helping those whose faith and lifestyle was different from hers.
In youth ministers dealing with gay youth, I think the first thing they have to do is get over this “hollier than thou” crap that is typical of most Christians. If one reads the Lives of Saints, many who have been declared saints have a common thread – they always believed they were the lowest of lows, the most unworthy. The Virgin Mary did not think she was worthy enough to be the Mother of God. Even Moses of the Old Testament did not consider himself an adequate candidate to carry out God’s work. Humility is the key.
When I was living in California I worked with the homeless and I learned a valuable lesson from it. We were told specifically not to prostulize (spelling?) at all. Our coordinator even threw out some Baptists who starting telling the homeless that they wouldn’t be homeless if they just accepted Christ. We were taught that the homeless were our clients. We are working for them. We cater to them, not to ourselves. We respond to their needs, not ours.
In Christianity, too many times Christians put in leadership roles are looking out for their needs, not the ones they are suppose to be serving. And, in the case of youth ministries, this is no exception. If a youth minister truly wants to serve the needs of gay youth, then they have to shed off the “holier than thou” attitude and treat the gay youth as an equal, not as an inferior. He or she has to be open to learning from those they serve, not acting as though they are the leader therefore they are superior.
– Shawn
So you seriously believe that Moses himself actually wrote the first five books of the Bible? Incredible.
Shawn, okaaaay…
In answering your questions, could you be a little more specific on what you’re asking?
How could I possibly be?
You made a rather nebulous claim about some unidentified events in your life. I asked what they were. Only you are able to answer that, and I have no idea what you may offer up.
What I can be specific about is the sort of answer I’m hoping to see. It will consist of 1) an event and 2) why you attribute the specific outcome to God.
As example — yours, sort of — if I ran onto the road and got struck by a passing vehicle … when I awoke in hospital I’d be on fairly firm grounds to attribute my newly 1) ‘broken legs’ to the 2) ‘accident’. If someone asked me how I broke my legs, I could tell them. Clearly.
And then, to again labour this point with you, you are being entirely circular with your last paragraph. I already understand what you believe, you’ve told us several times. What I want to know why you hold these beliefs. What I personally believe (or not) is irrelevant as far as your answers are concerned (unless you wish to go all Gnostic on me, I guess).
Saying “I believe in the Christian God because… those are my beliefs” answers nothing. You are simply repeating yourself. It would be like saying “The reason I have two broken legs is because they got broken.”
If you cannot answer, or would rather not answer — just say so. These conversations are normally avoided at XGW, but our dear editor has indulged all of us just this once… and it’d be wise to take full advantage of him before the sedative (or whatever it is) wears off.
Partie deux
So tell me, how does a straight-minded youth pastor minister to gay students that attend his/her youth ministry?
If they are concerned about the students’ welfare, they would steer them away from Exodus Youth. Any organisation that pounds the false messages that gay people are damaged goods, deserve pity, are harmful to others, and also directs them to organisations and individuals that promote the evil swill of Paul Cameron etc (eg Christian Medical & Dental Associations) should not be entrusted with gay students under any circumstances. Exodus Youth is that sort of organisation.
Quite apart from offering erroneous or purely speculative claims about homosexuality and gay men and lesbians, Exodus Youth will only ever promote an entirely negative viewpoint and will attempt to recruit the student into a network of unqualified and/or manipulative anti-gay religious ministries; an experience from which it may take many years to recover. Pastors should also be aware that Exodus Youth is part of an organisation that has been involved in campaigns to support the criminalisation of homosexuality, and is closely associated with and supported by a long list of unpleasantly anti-gay organisations.
Regardless of deeply held religious beliefs, no young person — gay or straight — should be exposed to the toxic fear-mongering and damaging falsehoods that they encounter at Exodus Youth.
Given all that, and given your current associations, this and your other questions appear to be both disingenuous and frankly unsafe to answer any further. So we won’t.
Tom – Thanks for the helpful answers. I’m not sure I totally agree with your approach on things, but your information is still helpful and insightful. I totally agree with you, in that no one (ministers especially) should force their beliefs or convictions onto others. Ones journey in faith is their own. And yes, I would also agree that too many times the Church hones in on the gay issue while ignoring world poverty, abused children, war issues, and the like … if we are going to be ministers on the gospel, we need to be ministers of the entire gosepl. Believe it or not, I strive to be such a minister to students and the Church.
Alan S – I totally agree with you about the Church’s “hollier than thou” approach to things. If I have been that way on here, I am sorry … I am not hollier than the next person … in essence we are all in the same boat/journey as the next person. I appreciate your insight too, thanks.
Grantdale – I’m sorry, but I just wasn’t sure what you were specifically asking of me. But I will try to give you some examples: when I tried to kill myself, I believe it was God who stopped me from driving off the cliff … when I was in accidents because I was drunk, I believe that God protected me from crashing … when my brother killed himself (because of being bullied in school), I believe it was God who got me through the entire ordeal instead of giving up on everything … I believe God has been bringing me through my struggles with being gay (again, my conviction and belief) … I believe that God is equipping me for something great in life (ministry wise) … God has just made Himself real to me over the 13 years that I have been walking with Him. Not sure what else you are looking for. What “nebulous claim about some unidentified events” are you speaking of, that I made?
As for why I believe what I do … let me answer that with another question: why can’t I believe in it? How can I deny who God is and what He has done in my life? Everywhere I look I see the presence of God: in nature, in people, in my kids, in ministering to others, in standing for social justice, through reading His word, through worship, through writing poetry … etc.
I’m sorry if you don’t like my answers. Why do you believe in God / why don’t you believe in Him?
As for my questions, I was asking because I really want to know. As I have said in another post already, I AM NOT associated with Exodus. They asked to publish my article and I allowed it. I do not work for them, nor am I getting paid by them. There are some things that I support of theirs, though there are others things that I have a problem with. I don’t think that you (and others) should write me off just because my article is on Exodus Youth.
I am sincere in my attempts to minister to gay students, and, more importantly, help change the Church’s perception on gays and lesbians. The Church needs to change – I will be the first to admit that. I’m trying … as best as I can … to do what I can where God places me.
And I know that Dave (and others) have been gracious in letting this conversation continue. I was more than willing to have it via email …….. thanks Dave for allowing it to be done on here.
Shawn, I’m not sure if you are trying to be difficult, or if I’m just not in the mood. I’m sorry if you’re trying to juggle all the different posts.
My faith in God, as said before, stands strong because of what I have seen and experienced of God in my life and in the lives around me.
That statement is nebulous, and doesn’t identify anything in particular. That is why I originally asked what I did — what was it you had seen and experienced, and why do you think God had anything to do with it. I asked two neutral and open questions.
It isn’t a question of me liking or disliking your answers. You weren’t giving answers.
And on that, you just did it again. Deliberately. Plainly, continuing this is pointless.
On the second part, you seem to be at pains to deny what I hadn’t claimed in any case.
I apologise: when you asked what we thought a “straight-minded youth pastor minister to gay students” should do, I didn’t realise you actually meant “what should I do”.
Would you refer someone to Exodus Youth, or Exodus, or an Exodus ministry, or recommend an Exodus-affiliated book, or promote the standard Exodus claims about homosexuality, or put them in contact with the Exodus environment through a third-party? (eg Focus on the Family, NARTH, etc)
Yes or no? If yes, I think my careful use of ‘your current associations’ is valid.
Your answer to that will also point to why some people may write you off, not one article.
Thank-you Shawn for the replies but I think I’ve had enough to be honest.
Shawn, I really don’t care about your view of the Christian Scriptures at this point.
What I want to know is how can you justify and defend publishing statements such as the following?
Where exactly is the “proof” of this? Do you really think that from afar you could automatically assume that I have “broken” relationships with “the sexes” (whatever THAT means, I can’t tell if you mean same or opposite sex) simply because I am romantically and physically attracted to women? What exactly is meant by “unhealthy relationships?” Do you mean “most” gay teens troll public parks for anonymous encounters? That most gay teens have broken relationships with their same-sex parent, a la NARTH? When you spread lies like this, when you treat us like pathological pariahs, you are just as bad as Exodus Youth. So it’s quite fitting that you volunteered your article, and thus your reputation, over to them.
And given your despicable writing about us, labeling us as such pitiable beings, it’s no wonder so many gay teens can be driven to destruction (according to GLSEN’s report). Maybe you never really have been gay yourself, otherwise you would understand that having others around you turn you into an object of pity and brokenness can drive you to do unhealthy things based on those unfortunate and destructive beliefs.
If you DID decide to spend a day in the life with me, you would find out that (1) I’m somewhat religious and spiritual, (2) I have wonderful friends and family, (3) I’m struggling with poverty and artistic endeavors, (4) I’m single right now, but not lonely, and (5) I’m an introvert, so going out to clubs or big rainbow events is not really generally my cup of tea.
All of that, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that I am romantically and physically attracted to (and sometimes, in LOVE with) women.
I agree. I think this conversation needs to end, because all we are doing is going around in circles – all of us, not just me.
If anyone would like to further this discussion, please feel free to email me.
I speak from my experiences as a gay teen and Christian – though I do not label myself as such anymore. This is how I have written my responses and how I wrote my article – and how I write the posts I do on my blog.
Either way, thanks for the conversation.
Shawn, I’ve read over this discussion and I don’t mean to be rude, but the only circular reasoning has come from some of your responses (not all, but some). The rest of the questions seem quite reasonable and give you the opportunity to explain what you do and why you do it in a candid fashion. Emily’s last question is both simple and to the point, and really does demand a response if you want to be taken seriously.
Performing what amounts to amateur psychotherapy under the guise of ministry is a big part of why groups like Beyond Exgay exist. You ask how a youth pastor can deal with GLBT kids without compromising their own beliefs. As long as you see your interpretation of scripture as infallible and at odds with observable fact, this will be a problem. But it should be your problem, not that of those you wish to help.
Alan Chambers used to comment at XGW on occasion, but he has since deemed the people here not worth the time to express himself. While it can be challenging, I honestly doubt you will find a more reasonable place on the Internet to have real discussion between diverse views.
I know it may seem like we’re coming at you from all directions, and perhaps we are, but I have to say that there have been many a thought through comments, including yours, and I wanted to say that I appreciate your participation and willingness to respond to what should be a relatively private matter (relationship (communion) with God).
That said, let’s see if we can’t at least pinpoint our place of disagreement.
You say:
That belief being, that homosexuality is a sin—or at least acting on it is.
So be it.
I then asked how this breaks the ultimate Biblical law, the law of love.
You said:
AKA “Because the Bible says so.”
So be it.
So I then asked:
Meaning, since there are so many fundamental errors (one of which I exampled), as per “God’s standards”—how do you determine which ones to adhere to, if not by the law of love itself?
Meaning, ultimately, that sin must be measured by its willful causation of harm.
You answered my example, though — intricately and interestingly. Not that I agree, but I certainly hadn‘t thought about it like that before.
I’m not out to prove that the Bible is in error, my point is/was to find out how you came to see homosexuality, in and of itself, as sinful.
Common sense, even for an atheist, just supplant God with parent.
The question is, how is homosexuality like a dangerous highway, other than “Because the Bible says so?” How does human intimacy, with a member of the same gender, in and of itself, represent an ongoing danger?
Two beliefs implied within that statement (correct me if I‘m wrong):
1) God “delivered” you from homosexuality.
2) Others have the right to apply your example to all other GLBT
personsyouth. (as per your willingness to allow your article to be published by Exodus Youth)**Deep Breath**
Shawn, I know your intention was to reduce violence, and part of your audience hears that, but some of them latch onto only the GLBT youth are sinners part.
That’s the part I’m concerned with. Like it or not, your words may help some, but they cause additional hell for others.
And again, I know it must be hard when you feel you’ve got to respond in 20 different directions. Not that I expect you to tango with us any further, but if you do, just take a step back, focus, and do your best.
I can’t promise you an easy ride, even from me, but I appreciate your willingness to engage.
-Patrick
Patrick Fitzgerald:
I agree. The youth are at a stage in their life when they are trying to find where they fit in into the world. LGBT and those who are questioning their sexuality are probably more vunerable than the average youth because they are being bombarded with hate from all angles: their parents, their family, their peers, and, sad to say, it is mainly religion that is feeding this hate.
When Christians flat line the Bible it kills the message. The Bible wasn’t meant to create our faith, nor to be a rule book, but rather a recording of God’s interaction with a particular group of humanity.
My advice to Shawn: if you truly love the Bible, learn about it. It doesn’t matter if Moses wrote the Torah or if it evolved from Moses’s teachings and other things added later. Our understanding of who authored a book is very different from the ancient world. The Torah is included in the Christian Bible because the Church accepted Jewish writings into its canon to use as evidence of Christ. If you attend an Orthodox church (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Angelican among others) you would understand this. In the Sunday service there is an Old Testament reading, a Psalm, a New Testament reading, and then the Gospel. The Old Testament reading is a preparation to the Gospel message. That is the purpose of the Old Testament for Christianity. And many times the Old Testament is used to show how some things in it are in contrast to the Gospel message.
Shawn: H
There are those of us who are Christian who do not see having a monogomous relationship with someone of the same sex as going against God’s message. Just as we are against slavery although the Torah and St. Paul condone it. I would be appalled if Americans started selling their daughters into marriage. I am against the death penalty although the Bible appears to command me to pick up a rock and have a stoning party.
Emily – I am sorry if you feel that I am making blankets assumptions and that I am grouping all gays and lesbians into the same categories. This was not my intent, and I am sorry. Please accept my apology.
Just as I have met tons of gay males who have had horrible relationships with their fathers, I have also met a lot of gay men who have had good relationships with their fathers. I was not suggesting that everyone who is gay has come from bad relationships with their same-sex parent. Though, according to the research I have done (not from NARTH), from the experiences of others, and from my own personal experience, I have concluded that most (not all) gay men (and women) have rooted their desires for the same-sex in the fact that they had horrible relationships with their parents of the same sex.
This point is actually supported in Andrew Sullivan’s book, “Virtually Normal” (pages 7-10). But he notes, and I totally agree, the same thing can be said about any problem within straight men and women. So while parental relationships do play a part in one’s sexuality, it isn’t always the main factor.
Again, if I have offended you, I am sorry.
I do remember what it was like being a gay male (and yes I was very much gay). I remember people making blanket statements like that, and I used to think, “They don’t know ME, so how can they judge me like that.” Furthermore, I was not implying that gays and lesbians are despicable people or that they prowl around parks looking for late night encounters – I would NEVER do that. I am sorry if you took my statements to imply that, but I was not.
Patrick – It is only because of your kind words that I am back here responding to some posts. Yes, it is hard trying to express myself – my personal beliefs – in an audience that has counted my out from the beginning. Even though that might not have been their intent, a lot of their words in this discussion has proven otherwise.
You are right, Patrick, my faith journey is relatively private. I am willing to share my experiences with others, and I willing to testify to all that God has done for me/through me. I do not expect others to follow after my experiences, nor do I expect them to take what I say as “the Word of God”.
I will be the first to admit that if I am wrong about anything (about this issue) I will publicly state it. In my faith journey though, I have come to the conclusion that what I am saying and teaching is not wrong, but rather biblical. You, and others, can make the same claims about your convictions and beliefs about the bible, homosexuality, and the like.
My beliefs have come from several years of researching this subject – from BOTH sides of the issue. For example, Dale Martins wrote an article about the true meaning of Paul’s use of “homosexual”. While I disagree with his findings, I do agree with Dale that the Church has done major (unjust) damage to the gay community, especially in regards of the Bible – using it more as a weapon than as a love letter from God.
I sat under a very gifted man, during college, who was one of the translators for the NIV (Wes Gerig). While he may have a hard approach on dealing with gays and lesbians, I totally support his views about Paul’s use of the word, as well as other passages that speak against the practice of homosexual sex.
For me, why have I found the gay life to be harmful: mostly because of my experiences within the gay life. Growing up I was abused as a child, I was molested, I “fooled around” with some friends, I had a bad relationship with my father and mother … etc etc. Coming out and embracing my gayness, I was eager to find a man that would love me for who I was. I did meet some men like that; but I also experienced a lot of men who simply used me for sex. I was in one relationship where my boyfriend forced me to have sex with him – amidst my attempts to stop and push him away. I had befriended an older man who sort of took my under his wing, though all he wanted was to get into my pants. I had a “youth pastor” who struggled with being gay, and who helped me find God, molest me during a walk in a field. I had another guy force his way with me, in a park late a night, against me will – I was a teen and he was in his thirties – afterwhich he went back home to his wife.
A lot of these stories are deep and personal, and I don’t like retelling them (re-living them); but these experiences have put me where I am today in regards to my sexuality. And, as Andrew Sullivan states again in his book, a person’s sexuality is mainly built around their experiences – just as his were.
I can’t fully explain why I got married, and why I love my wife, other than saying it was a work of God. I am not attracted to women … though I am not sexually attracted to men either.
I am aware of some lasting same-sex relationships – I know of some personal ones in fact. I am not discrediting their relationships at all. If two people of the same-sex want to get married (under a civil union), go right ahead, I can’t stop them – nor should politics. My question comes in when the couple (or person) publicly confesses that they are devoted to walking with God. Again, going back to my understandings and convictions, God’s Word says that male-male sexual relationships (female-female) are wrong. Though, this thought goes for anyone who claims to follow after God and yet continues to go against His standards. I am not singling out gays and lesbians here – though my article is directed towards this particular issue.
Read my blog, I have a lot of posts that speak out against pre-martial sex, porn use, and the like.
In referring to what I said before about non-Christians and Christians, I think it’s wise to include my full statement:
What I am calling for here is a safe and open discussion from both sides of the issue. There are many things that Christians need to better understand about the gay community (as Emily has pointed out) just as there are many things that the gay community needs to understand about the Church.
You are right in your first assertion that God has “delivered” me from my homosexual past … I no longer see myself as a gay man, or as one who needs the affirmation of a male lover. Your next assertion is somewhat right, in that though I speak about my experiences and journey, I do not expect people to follow suit. I have been called, by God, to testify to what He has done in my life and what He desires to do in everyone’s life – gay and straight. I have not been called to convince people to change or to even change people. I can not do that – only God and the person can do that. People can either accept my experiences and strive to find their own, or they can reject what I have said and go about their life as if nothing was said at all.
Above and beyond anything else, Christians are called to LOVE people. I totally agree with that – and I am trying to do just that. God’s love is amazing, and I want everyone to embrace it for themselves – I truly do. I believe that I can love a person for who they are, and yet not agree with everything that they chose to do. My kids are going to make choices that I don’t agree with in life, but my love for them will never change. Jesus loved those who killed Him, and who rejected Him … but He didn’t change His message in order to appease them. I love the stories of John 4 and John 8, and I seriously strive to live my life in light of these encounters Jesus had with these two women.
God’s love is supreme over everything – the Bible should be entirely read through the lens of God’s eternal love for us (His children). In embracing God’s love, His desire is to totally take us over with His love – reaching deep down inside to the area’s we don’t want anyone to touch. This goes beyond the issue of homosexuality … it extends to every area of our lives!
In His love, God desires us to embrace life to the fullest – though it’s our choice in how far we go with God in embracing this fullness. After all, it’s our life and He gives us the freedom to choose. His closeness to us is determined by our acceptance of His closeness.
In living life to the fullest, God desires us to follow after His will (what He has for our lives) verses what we want for our own lives. We always come short of living life to the fullest – in God we never fall short of it. Though the question I often ask myself is this: how bad do I want His fullness?
For me, following after His fullness, and in truly loving Him with all that I have, means following His word. Following His law of love as well as following His law for holiness – in that you take both testaments and strive to live them out through the lens of God’s love (not your own love). I am so in love with God that I want everything that He has for me. I believe part of this means, denying what I wanted out of life and pursuing what He wanted for me out of life.
I did not accept Christ and become a Christian because I wanted to go to heaven and not hell. I didn’t accept Jesus because I wanted to be accepted by straight people. And I certainly didn’t accept Jesus so that I can become straight. I spent about four years trying to live in both worlds: following God and being a gay man. For me it didn’t work; there was too much compromise.
I accepted Jesus because of His LOVE for me. I saw, through a friend, what it looked like and felt like and I wanted it for myself. I was in a desperate situation – near suicide once again – and I took a gamble on God …. I have never regretted it since.
I hope this has shed light on some confusion with my past answers and such. Thanks for listening (reading).
– Shawn
Shawn, thank you for coming back and answering my questions point blank. Although i have to say I would no sooner use Andrew Sullivan’s personal experiences to judge the sexuality of others as I would your sexuality, as I would Ellen DeGeneres’, as I would my one female bisexual friend. None of them represents why I am who I am and none can truly relate to the other so much that blanket statements can be made. I was never abused. I have, for the most part, led a shy, experiment-free, chaste life. Then how do I know I’m gay? Because I feel it. It’s how one knows you’re straight. But I was never molested, and my parents were always supportive of me and gave very honest talks concerning sexuality. So it would seem that someone who leads a very honest but mundane life can still end up “catching the gay.”
Additionally Shawn, I would in the future take care of how you phrase statements like “Most gays are […]” etc. You should really say “in my experience, most of the gays I have met” but then be sure to qualify that you don’t mean EVERY single gay person.
Shawn, thanks for returning with such a detailed reply.
Shawn, I was blessed by reading your testimony of your life experiences and how you’ve overcome them and how God restored you from being abused. That’s powerful stuff. I do think, though, that there are some logical fallacies in your reasoning toward gays, but I’m not going to get into it as I think Emily’s personal example and the many like hers shows that the theory of a bad relationship with the same sex parent is seriously flawed.
What I will say from my own experience, that when I was going through ex-gay therapy, there were sometimes significant amounts of time that went by where I did not feel same-sex attractions and actually felt opposite sex attractions. However, what I figured out was that the reason I didn’t feel those feelings for other guys was that I was repressing them from consciousness. I talked recently with a guy who’s done extensive research in genetics and physiology and has been published a couple of times in scientific journals and he told me that our conscious feelings can sometimes be caused or inhibited by what we desire to feel. Apparently there was a study done on some radical feminist women who were very angry with men (and I do not mean by that to imply that that is the case for all feminists or even the majority). Apparently, they were able to experience some same sex attraction for the time in their lives that they wanted nothing to do with men. When they either decided not to be lesbian anymore or to mate with a man, they were able to easily dismiss their same sex attractions and become attracted to men or, like yourself feel nothing for either. The thing about the study was that the women were actually able to produce an attraction that wasn’t natural to them (as they reported not having it earlier in their lives) simply because they wanted it to be there so they could mate with someone. This is the power of mind over matter. However, when they decided they didn’t want it anymore, they easily gave it up (contrary to what happens with people who have real biologically caused same-sex attractions).
My point in bringing this up and sharing my personal experience is that I don’t think you or other “ex-gays” are really delivered. I think you so desperately don’t want those attractions to be there so strongly that you are able to push them out of consciousness. This is what happens to people who are experiencing sexual dysfunction (when it is not biological). For some reason (often prior abuse), they simply cannot feel sexual arousal. Sometimes this is found with people who come from extremley conservative religious backgrounds who grow up with the strong message of the “dangers” and “evils” of sex. They abstain their whole life, meet someone, get married as a virgin, come to their wedding night and they feel nothing. It’s buried in their unconscious because it was a defense mechanism to protect them from the awful guilt they would feel as a result of having a sexual thought. That’s also the explanation behind why I could “not feel” same sex attractions for periods of time. Like you, I really thought I was being delivered and I started telling people close to me that I was. However, ironically, as my Christian counselor at the time helped me to get over the way I guilted myself about everything, the feelings re-emerged slowly. Then, when I had my mind changed about what God thought about it and realized He was okay with it, they returned to normal. Likewise, when I felt like I was supposed to be attracted to women, I felt some small measure of attraction to them (similar to the experiences of those feminists). When I realized that I just felt that way because I wanted to be “normal” and I accepted myself the way I was instead, lo and behold, they disappeared! My point is that psychological reasons can influence our experience powerfully. It’s not that we have an experience (as we both had opposite ones), it’s the interpretation of that experience that matters and the psychological and physiological studies show numerous examples of what I have just shared while at the same time failing to show any actual, scientifically verified examples of someone going from completely and truly gay to completely and truly straight. Not one.
I believe you have repressed your homosexuality out of consciousness and may truly feel no attraction to men. That doesn’t mean that you’re not gay. It just means that you’re repressed. Now, if that works for you and enables you to live consistent with your religious beliefs, then that’s great, I’m glad for you. But can I give you a free word of unsolicited advice both for my sake and yours? For your sake, don’t go around telling people that you have been delivered from homosexuality, but don’t feel anything sexual toward your wife. Only people who want to believe in sexual orientation change will accept that. The average, every day person on the street will not think to themselves, “Wow, Jesus delivered him.” Rather, they’re likely to politely nod and then think as they’re walking away, “Yeah right, you’re just repressed.” Nearly no one would consider someone “delivered” who testified to getting married, but had no sexual desire whatsoever for his wife. True “deliverance” would involve being delivered from homosexuality and restored to heterosexuality. When Jesus delivered a person from blindness, He didn’t just fix one eye. I am not saying these things to be mean and I hope you don’t take offense to them, but I honestly do not want you to be seen as a laughing stock, so if telling people the truth is part of loving them as evangelicals like to say, then I have to tell you these things as your brother in the Lord.
And for the second part, for my sake, don’t go around trumpeting repression as deliverance because it just gives false evidence to certain people that they will in turn use to keep me and many others who read this site from enjoying the full rights and privileges we should have under our great Constitution. I grew up dreaming of being married one day and I would appreciate it if you would not perpetuate the myth that change is possible so that I might achieve that dream at some point. If you want to share with people how God healed you from abuse, then I say go for it! Yet, at the same time please be honest and tell them that sexual orientation cannot be changed, but that, if they felt like a life of celibacy was something they needed to adopt for them to feel faithful to God, you would be there to support them. It will save us a lot of heartbreak and them a lot of disappointment when “change” doesn’t come. I appreciate you listening to me on this and I wish you luck in future endeavors.
Shawn:
I think it boils down to a few things: one of those is how one views the Bible, another one is how one allows understanding the historical backdrop of the Bible, and another would be what one understands what it is to have a relationship with God.
I’ve mentioned this before in other places, but it bares repeating here. I believe, for example, that the Virgin Mary had only one child and that child was Jesus. When I am challenged with my belief by those who take the words “brothers and sisters” in the Gospels to mean Mary and Joseph had other children, I am able to defend my belief. By the same token, someone who believes in justification by faith only has to find a way to defend his or her belief because there will be parts of the Bible that deny it.
Some people believe we must conform to certain standards in order to have a relationship with God. All religions do. The problem with that is when they are extreme to the point where we start to play the exclusion game.
I remember as a kid the hell raised when women demanded a larger role in the church. The Catholic Church, returning back to the Middle Ages, has a whole line of books written against the ordination of women. But in Protestant Churches its now the norm. St. Paul said women were to remain silent in the church, and they were to cover their heads. Again, those who advocate women to play leadership roles in any aspect of the church have to find a way to justify their belief and again the Bible will have places that deny it.
If you flat line the Bible you still have to decide what is more important in it and what is not. You also have decide what is a universal belief and what is something that is subject to a specific time to a specific group of people. Thou shalt not kill – a universal belief most would hold to. The buying and selling of slaves – specific to certain people of a certain time. Love God above all else – a universal belief. Women are to be silent in Church – specific to a certain people of a certain time. Love your neighbor as yourself – a universal. A man lying with another man a taboo – a specific to a certain people of a certain time.
Well stated, Alan.
Emily – thanks for the suggestions about my word choices, know that I will change the wording in my article – on my site. Not sure if I can change it on Exodus Youth … but I will certainly on mine.
Again, I am sorry for the offense.
Tom – thanks for your words; though I do want to make two corrections in your statement:
First, I put the word “delivered” in quotations because I was using that as a loose term. I am cautious in using the term “delivered” when talking about homosexuality. I feel that God has given me the freedom to walk away from my unwanted same-sex attractions. At times, I am still tempted by a shirtless man walking down the beach (to use as an example), but I do not desire to have sexual relations with any man. Again, that’s where I am in my journey.
Second, I never said I wasn’t sexually attracted to my wife. I love my wife, and I love having sex with her. I did, however, say that I am not attracted to other women. Maybe that’s messed up, but again, that’s where I am right now.
As for your comments about marriage being the ultimate goal – I have never said that. I am in total support of people living celibate lives. I am not forcing change on anyone, let alone forcing people into “straight marriage”. If it seemed that way, I am sorry, but I am not suggesting that at all.
I have friends who have chosen to remain celibate – awesome. I have friends who have chosen to get married – awesome. And I have friends who are atheist and don’t have a desire to change anything – fine.
God wants our hearts … that’s what I am after: helping people reconnect to God’s heart. However that looks … it’s between the person and God.
I hope this has cleared up some confusion. Thank you all for allowing me to speak freely. I know a lot of our ideas/beliefs clash, but I am grateful that we can talk civil about this issue.
– Shawn
Hey Shawn, thanks for clarifying and for your honesty!
My grandpa used to say, “I don’t have a problem with God, it’s “his people” that I have a probelm with.” Shawn, I think it is good that you want to help reconnect people to God, but remember that God connects with us as we are. It is the soul that changes, not the sexual orientation. Too many “religious” people start with the physical and end with the spiritual, as if the physical aspect of our lives overrides the spiritual. Calvin took that belief to the extreme.
A gay couple can demonstrate God’s love just as easily as a straight couple. The body parts are not the essentials. In the Gospels, Christ numerously tries to get his listeners to understand that it is the soul not the body that is the important element to salvation. The OT prophets also made this point before him.
You said:
My husband and I confess to be devoted to walking with God. God sees the love we have for each other and we are truly blessed to have each other in our lives. When you find the one whom you can truly call your “soulmate” their love for you draws you closer to God. My love for mt partner and having him in my life makes me want to draw closer to God. If I married a woman just to conform to what “God’s people” say is the “natural” “normal” or “Biblically correct,” I know in time I would grow to resent God and eventually turn away from him. I think a lot of gay Christian couples have the same attitude in this regard.
additon: “a lot of gay Christian (and those of other faiths) couples
Part 1
I most definitely concur.
Shawn, one of the biggest complaints I have with Exodus International, et al, is their use of code wording to mask the true meaning of their message. As I said in another thread on this site:
The word “counterfeit” implies not only that our love is not real, but that we are too stupid to realize it.
These terms are dog whistles.
As I said, the ambiguity of their use is intentional. But most importantly, it is intentional for the sake of deception. And to the extent that these terms are intentionally deceptive, they are lies. Gussied up, lies.
I have no doubt that you can, and are willing to avoid such deceptive language in expressing your tale of considerable woe. I was aghast at the telling of your molestation experiences, on top of your brother’s suicide, your own attempts, and knowing that you had to re-live, at least the memories, in the effort to write it down for the rest of us.
I’m sorry for minimizing, even in my own mind, what you have been through. It takes a strong soul to be so open about things like that that are so personal. In that sense, your weakness is your strength. But to avoid (potentially) throwing your pearls before swine, consider words that will maximize the intensity of the impact of those experiences without having to dredge out each and every detail.
I say that for the sake of general pragmatism in sharing your story. Though sometimes, like here, and now, each and every detail was necessary to get me (and I’m sure others) to fully appreciate and respect your perspective in regard to “leaving homosexuality.”
To further confirm; Emily’s suggestion to use words like “in my experience…” go millions of miles as far as credibility is concerned. And most importantly, your point need not be compromised in the process.
The same goes for the other code-words/terms, “change” “temptation” “leaving homosexuality.”
If you are going to use them—then for the sake of credibility—be clear about your meaning.
Thanks for your (very) kind-hearted words Patrick. This has been a good learning experience for me. I do thank you all for the conversation.
– Shawn
P.S. I assume there is a Part 2 to your post, Patrick?
Lost in all this discussion: How does Mrs. Harrison feel? And NOT from your perspective, Mr. Harrison.
How does she feel about my gay past? Or what, cowboy?
I apologize for the lengthy delay. I had Part 2 all written out, and then started editing it and editing it and editing it, and before I knew it, I’d killed it.
The gist of it was this:
Exodus Youth is an offshoot of Exodus International. Write for one and you endorse it. Endorse one and you endorse the other.
I was going to offer a litany of examples as to why one would not want to associate with Exodus Youth, and by extension, Exodus International, but given what has been accomplished in this thread, I didn’t think it would be very productive.
Suffice it to say that many of us feel that Exodus International has committed, and continues to commit, some abominable sins in regard to hypocrisy, bearing false witness, and worse.
Point being, that it’s important to realize that when you write for EY, you put your stamp of approval on all those things (at least it appears that way from the outside looking in).
Accurate and honest wording on your part will definitely help to validate your own sincerity, but please take the time to do some research, so that you fully understand what, and whom you are associating yourself with.
It ain’t pretty.
—
Other than that, again, I very much appreciate your willingness to engage and share some of the most intimate details of your life. Your testimony goes a long way in helping me to better understand the perspective of many in the ex-gay community (even the ones I have issues with).
And at least I know now that if I have issues with you in the future, I can feel confident in corresponding with you directly.
So, a (very) good learning experience for me too.
Thank you, Shawn.
-Patrick
Thank you Patrick. I know that through this whole thread my eyes have been opened to see things through a different view – which has been very beneficial.
I would like to pick your brain about some things, if you don’t mind. Could you email me sometime? Thanks.
-Shawn
Patrick,
When you talk to Shawn, please understand that he has been connected — one way or the other — with Exodus for over 10 years. All claims to the contrary about his intentions, he has chosen to link to a long list of revoltingly anti-gay organisations that spread fear, ignorance and a damaging attitude toward gay men and lesbians.
Please do not assume you need to explain anything to him, even if he claims ignorance.
He is well aware. And has been for years. What is new for him is this type of forum.
Before you educate him, ask yourself first: to what purpose will this knowledge be put to?
False advertising remains false advertising, even if someone has corrected the spelling mistakes (if you get what we mean). Read through this post string carefully — at no point, despite all the words, has Shawn done anything to address or correct the original complaint about portraying “condescension and religious supremacism as compassion”.
And my best guess is he never will. How could he… without, first, a change in attitude?
/sigh maybe we need to change our name from grantdale to cassandra.