Exodus International began their 3-day regional “Freedom Conference” on Thursday at The Bridge Evangelical Free Church in Fresno, CA. The theme for this year is “A New Day.” The conference will run through the 5th. Keynote speakers are Alan Chambers, Joe Dallas, Don Schmierer, and Dr. Sharon Hersh. The conference will also feature Dr. Nancy Heche, mother of actress Anne Heche, who famously dated openly gay comedienne Ellen Degeneres.
But more alarming is the special program geared towards the under-25 set, which Exodus has titled “Xscape.” This is “a special part of the conference focused on the concerns of young people.” Exodus has high hopes for today’s youth:
For many of them, the Freedom Conference is their first time experiencing freedom to talk, ask and share openly about their struggles in a Christian environment.
This program is obviously offering an “xscape” – er, “escape” – route from homosexuality. My hope would be that they get all the facts about gay life before trying to escape from anything, and consider the dismal chances of making any fundamental changes beyond behavior.
Counter demonstrations are also planned, a Fresno ABC affiliate reports. Members of the Wesley United Methodist Church, including some who’ve tried ex-gay therapy, will try to reach out on Saturday, the final day of the conference, with the message that you can be gay and Christian.
“Right after college I went through a program hoping to break away from those feelings and basically all it taught me was how to hide from myself, hide from other people and block myself off from the world,” says Wendy Slack [a member of the church].
Exodus organizers are welcoming the demonstrators, and invite people to “find out for themselves” whether ex-gay programs are effective.
That page is signed by “– Mike Ensley, Youth Analyst,” who is leading a few of the workshops.
From the ADF’s Day of Truth website:
What if I’m Still Struggling, by Mike Ensley
There’s no date on that, but their Truth and Tolerance DVD, which features Mike Ensley, is ©2007:
And let’s not forget keynote speaker and unrepentant adulterer Joe Dallas:
Out of Deception
By Joe Dallas, as told to Bob Davies
Matthew 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Crooks.
It’s worth every cent the spent on J&Y’s ambigiously concluded book to make this claim to the press.
Sigh.
And yet they know, they know, that if J&Y proves anything it proves that “change” is primarily located in the memory of those in a retrospective sample and that those measured on a going forward basis experienced no change.
Exodus always sell their “change is possible” mantra while giving people the illusion of hope. But what happens when you realise you still like men as a man, and women as a woman, but still shrugg it off saying, oh, it is just temptations and it is going to be there “to some degree for a long time”.
You will be a person whose goal in living is to not live as who you are for the rest of your life, because people lied to you so many times that you have believed that God do not love you just the way you are after He put you through some circumstances that somewhat turned you homosexual. But hey, do not blame God, blame your parents.
Then welcome to the Ex-gay circle, where your life is defined by a social construct and not by who you are anymore.
That’s fascinating that you say that, Yuki, because that is EXACTLY what ex-gays say about leaving homosexuality: That they are leaving a “social construct” that they feel unfairly defines them – they feel trapped in a life where they are “defined” by their sexuality and not by “who they really are.” But why can’t sexuality just be another facet to personality?
Most likely because their own sexuality scares them so much that they cannot possibly integrate it into their regular, everyday lives in a healthy way. You learn to hate, fear, and despise that part of yourself, that sinful, warped part. You couldn’t possibly have been born into that dirty, unnatural way – you had some terrible past trauma that became “sexualized.” Sexuality is made the enemy that you fight your entire life, rather than embrace as part of your humanity. Embracing a sexual orientation doesn’t mean running off to a bath-house, donning rainbows, engaging in liberal politics and going to gay bars – it means accepting that when you fall in love with someone, it’s someone of the same sex rather than the opposite.
Timothy said:
In 2006, Exodus paid Wheaton College $25K for “Outreach.” I don’t know if that is part of the original $100K they paid for the J&Y study, but I find the expense category interesting.
The conference will run through the 5th. Keynote speakers are Alan Chambers, Joe Dallas, Don Schmierer, and Dr. Sharon Hersh. The conference will also feature Dr. Nancy Heche, mother of actress Anne Heche, who famously dated openly gay comedienne Ellen Degeneres.
Same old tired people, same old dog and pony show.
But more alarming is the special program geared towards the under-25 set, which Exodus has titled “Xscape.” This is “a special part of the conference focused on the concerns of young people.” Exodus has high hopes for today’s youth:
Haven’t most Christian youth left behind this crap? Exodus’ high hopes seem misguided. BTW how are they progressing with their network of 10 000 churches?
Rob, according to the Exodus site, young people are a “growing” demographic attending these conferences.
Yeah, this was featured on the local news, here in Fresno yesterday. It made my stomach churn… Oi, when will the world tour kick off?
Emily does it say if these young people are
forced to goaccompanied by their parents?Emily K said…
As TWO’s Mike Airhart brilliantly observes:
And now the Mike Ensley version, re the Truth and Tolerance DVD:
So they are selling freedom from sexuality itself, dishonestly packaged as “freedom from homosexuality.” They then make it a point not to define themselves by their sexuality, but how do these “Christians” define the rest of us in public?
By the most sexually promiscuous non-monogamous among us.
HOMOSEXUALITY ISN’T THE ANSWER
By Mike Ensley
That, is from The Male Couple. I covered this the day before yesterday, here, in regard to Mike Haley’s use of the same study. And note the fact that he notes that the researchers were gay – implying that he believes gays can be trusted when it comes to studying ourselves.
Continued:
Which is in regard to this:
Gay couples likely to try non-monogamy, study shows:
And underlying ALL OF THAT is the fact that they spend their entire
anti-gayex-gay careers attempting to prevent and ruin gay relationships TO BEGIN WITH.Ensley and ilk weren’t sexually broken, they were just broken – still broken even. So still-broken in fact that they either believe that intentional dishonesty is God approved, or they truly are so mentally deficient that they have no concept of the meaning of integrity.
One thing is certain, these are some sick people. It seems to me that they literally mistake their sickness for their “salvation.” And now they wish to infect others with their new found “cure.” (AKA “freedom.”)
Jason D:
It actually makes a point to say that many come alone.
They never mention how lesbians are monogamous! What’s to convince ME that my lifestyle will be empty and broken, full of anonymous encounters without the possibility of finding monogamy? Why do they never mention women in their studies?
Wow, such sloppy propaganda. I mean, aren’t they supposed to edit out stuff that doesn’t fit, or ruins the message?
Let’s look at that paragraph again, in particular this part :
Young people have short relationships??? Get OUT of town!
I bet if I did a study of young straight folks, I’d find that their relationships are shorter than 3 years, too.
And if your oldest research subjects are, say, 30 (of any orientation) you’re not going to find a lot of people who have been in, or are curretly in a relationship lasting more than 10 years. The numbers just won’t add up that way.
And now this part
First, these are young men, and if anyone has a hard time being in a monogamous relationship, it’s young men. Gay or straight, they just have a hard time with this one. The difference being that the gay ones are likely to have a fling or trick with permission, whereas the straight ones do it behind the ladies back. Result is the same: partners outside the relationship.
Second, key words “only 25% of the men he interviewed“. How many men DID he interview? From how many geographical areas? How many different social classes? How many different ethnicities? How many different religions? How many different economic classes? Was there a follow up study, it was, after all, 5 years ago?
Oh, here’s some more answers…
If it is from the same study — Only 70 men? That’s not enough. Only in Ontario? That’s one province of one country, not exactly a wide net. Only reached via bars and gay organizations? What “gay organizations” are we talking about? Churches? Social clubs? The Gay & Lesbian Chamber of Commerce? Youth Outreach? HIV outreach?
So the quote, if we’re being honest, should read:
Because in addition to being lesbians, you’re also women.
I, on the other hand, am a woman with a man’s body. So they have to take me seriously…
Course not, that would ruin their propaganda.
If Exodus is wise, they’ll tread carefully in their youth outreach. According to a 2007 Barna study about Christianity and youth,
They can do all the youth seminars they like. And they can put the word “love” in every sentence they speak. But as long as Exodus ministries are rallying the masses in support of Sally Kern, they will only continue to feed the impression that all they offer is contempt.
Emproph, u said,
After reading the exchanges at Box Turtle Buletin, most of it spinned around one point… sex and gender. some questions i had were, how do you feel/are woman if there are no universal gender specifiers? Unless you have some stereotypes to take the factors out from, no?… Or is it because of culturally assimilated gender specifiers?Or… sumthing else im not quite geting. Im sory if this bothers you… but if I’m going to wonder about transgenders , best speak to one 🙂
All these ‘statistic facts’ always remind me of the student at my university that said one of their proyects in the statistics class was to manipulate the data to say something it really didnt. He recounted how they manipulated the data so as to make a convincing piece of how cigarettes benefit health, not harm it.
And the time I was arguing with a street preacher and ,at the time, i used to look for some stats.. and when he told me the stats about ‘DE GAYZ'(anti-gay) i gave him research to tell him ‘the other side of the story'(pro-gay). ultimately, he concluded that statistics are worth nothing…(even if he used them), what really matters is what God thinks. There and then i realized that, even if you prove them wrong… you gain nothing. Although, for the sake of other wondering/curious minds… it is worth challenging the generalizing inaccuraccies they might present.
Emproph said,
WHen i read this, i did not infer what Jason D did. It just means that even when monagamous, they do not last.
Unless you can somehow prove jason D’s statement. I dont think they were so disengenious as to say that they didnt last more than 3 years (but without actually having broke up).
Btw… is their any research that point how gay relationships last are no more promiscous than straight relationships. Or does all the research point in the direction of what ‘ex-gays’ are doing the best convey. Gay >> Promiscous than straights. And almost always have shorter lasting relationships than straights.
I can’t remember how many straight people contribute to this thread, but as far as I can tell, Pam and I are the only straight women who are no longer with our husbands for different reasons.
It’s not easy being in hetero relationships. Dating has been hit and miss and eHarmony rejected me. I couldn’t match up with anyone as gay friendly as I am.
The singleton ex gays out there tend to strike me somewhat like folks waiting for something to come to them. Going out and getting who you want tends to require the right pheremones and factor X and a LOT of honesty.
Especially honesty.
It’s not healthy, either self deception or outer deception for any relationship.
In the laws of attraction, I’m picking up strong MIXED signals from ex gays and those that encourage it.
You know…like the sort of sound waves or chemicals that get put out to confuse fruitflys to KEEP them from mating.
That’s what the ex gay industry seems to be doing to the natural order of things. Working more for INCOMPATIBILITY, than the other way around.
Sometimes, there are people that have a tough time dating because of social awkwardness and insecure people tend to give off that vibe in a strong way and could attract the wrong person for that reason too.
Heteosexuality is no magic bullet to happiness, freedom or sexual compatibility.
And maybe that’s why it seems most ex gays ARE celibate or EX sexual.
Having a relationship either way looks like too daunting.
So they’d rather not be bothered.
See what I mean?….that’s what happens to the fruitflies too when they get mixed signals.
They stand still.
Emily, it is true that when these groups discuss gay issues, it is always about men. I rarely hear discussions about women. I suspsect that part of the reason is the gross out factor. Exodus and other groups can use the gross out of men being with men as a motivator, but for society two women does not have the same gross out appeal (there are whole areas of porn devoted to females and females).
However, the whole monogamy thing is kind of iffy. I know some lesbians who don’t like monogamy. Most gay men I know are in pretty steady relationships. Mine is going on 15 1/2 years. Often, when researchers go out to find stats, they will go to heavy gay populations with bars and dating centers. Of course, a lot of monogamous gay guys don’t go to these places.
Emily, Aaron, everyone… please spare a thought for the Asexual community. They have no gross factor for people to give them any attention. And no one condemns them for ruining the sanctity of marriage either. They are not even procreating and no one is complaining!
Worse of all, the Bible said nothing about them, as if they do not exist (perhaps they are spoken in terms of celibate people?)… come to think of it, the Bible do not say anything about Bisexuality either! (unless on the homo half?) Wonder if Ex-Gays will branch out further to include these two soon….Think about it; Ex-Bisexual or Ex-Asexual (so their opposites on Ex would be what I yonder)
Aaron:
“It is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals (in the United States) will engage in infidelity at some point during their marriage (see, Buss and Shackelford for review of this research). And these numbers are probably on the conservative side, when you consider that close to half of all marriages end in divorce.” from: https://www.truthaboutdeception.com/quizzes/public/infidelity_statistics.html
George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:
“While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages.”
I put these two quotes up because it always amazes me how Fundamentalists who claim to be Christian love to paint homosexuals (mainly men) as permiscuous and unable to sustain a monogamous relationship. They try to project heterosexuality as the only pure and holy type of relationship for humans as if Christ embraced it himself. And yet, if one wanted to know the causes of infidelity or divorce, the Fundamentalists under the guise of Christianity would be the best people to study.
They always refer to the “gay lifestyle” without realizing that their “Pseudo-Christian pseudo-straight lifestyle” is full of deception, lies, toe-tapping in public bathrooms (like Sen. Craig), buying drugs and sex from prositutes (like Haggard), having things go bump in the dark in cheap hotels (like Swaggart). I’ll give them this much however, by keeping the public’s eye fixed on us and saying things about us that keep the public’s ears and eyes turned to us and away from them, they can continue to live their doubles lives without being perceived as evil. And even when they get caught, all they need to say is “the devil made me do it” and a thousand “amens” will fill the room.
Good point, and one I’m surprised more people don’t get. Finding monogamous gay couples at a gay bar is like finding a 50-year old straight couple at a danceclub. Sure, you might, but the likelyhood is low.
For my own example, my partner and I were never big bar people. In the sense that we used to go, but got bored after awhile with the whole experience. Once I sobered up (used to have a drinking problem) I got bored with them, and once I found myself in a relationship with a wonderful man I never wanted to go back to the bars again.
Joel said: “There and then i realized that, even if you prove them wrong… you gain nothing. Although, for the sake of other wondering/curious minds… it is worth challenging the generalizing inaccuraccies they might present.”
This is indeed the problem. They are right because they know they are, or G told them so, or it’s in the bible, or they need to be superior. But mostly because, I think, they really NEED to be right. Shakespeare put it best: ‘there is nothing so true in heaven or earthe, but wishing will make it so.”
Jason said: Finding monogamous gay couples at a gay bar is like finding a 50-year old straight couple at a danceclub. Sure, you might, but the likelyhood is low.
I’m 57, my husband is 48. I think we MAY have been in a gay bar once in 6 years, and i MAY have gone in once myself. by definition, we’re excluded from such a study. And even a little thought will show the flaws in this so-called study.
But as emproph observes, this isn’t what this is all about. “Ensley and ilk weren’t sexually broken, they were just broken – still broken even. So still-broken in fact that they either believe that intentional dishonesty is God approved, or they truly are so mentally deficient that they have no concept of the meaning of integrity.”
It really a case of duvet calling the pillow shams lavender. They need to be right, and in the same way that, let us say, this website NEEDS to be truthful and honest and correctible. Because anything less just damages the cause
Well, thats just your opinion. I certainly dont believe that. Their integrity is their faith. Everything revolves around their faith. If thats not integrity, i have no idea what your referring to then.
Let me expand. First, i dont think their being intentionally dishonest. If you heard them explain what ex-gay actually meant for them you may notice that it’s not that their(or at least Einsley) straight, or gay or bi ar anything in between. Rather, they do not wish to identify as sexually impulsed beings, but beings that have a conscience and can CHOOSE whether to act with integrity towards God or towards their sexual attraction. They choose the first, and who will argue that its not possible to NOT have a gay relationship or sexual intercourse even while being gay? I’m convinced any gay will tell you that they CHOOSE whom they have intercourse with and who their willing to have a relationship with. Like gays, einsley does not say that he at any moment can choose not to be attracted, but rather, his experience is such that hes noticed that the attraction diminishes when one stops identifying as gay(in the most fixed meaning of the word, like being born and never being able to get out of it).
Secondly, mentally deficient seems like an ambigous term, so not really sure what your reffering at by it. Mentally deficient sounds like someone that cannot use their brain to think and reason. If so… i dont think the ex-gays(in specific, einsley) are mentally deficient.
Joel: you wrote this: ‘Their integrity is their faith. Everything revolves around their faith. If thats not integrity, i have no idea what your referring to then.’
In the posting before yours, I wrote this: ‘But mostly because, I think, they really NEED to be right. Shakespeare put it best: ‘there is nothing so true in heaven or earthe, but wishing will make it so.”’
This was somewhat in anticipation to your comment. I would say that clearly, the NEED to be right is the not the same thing as actually being right. It is only a demonstration of integrity in that it is being true to oneself and one’s needs and being consistent with those.
At the same time, for me at least, integrity involves being willing to look at myself and ask myself whether I am being 100% truthful, 100% honest, 100% kind, etc, etc etc etc., because that is how I want to be, and that is how I want to be seen by others. I don’t claim to be perfect, but integrity for me involves always striving, as I think Emerson said, “Be whom you would seem to be.”
I think these gentleman fail onthree counts. First, they fail on the basis of integrity in their religion. I have always heard that the message of Christianity is love one another, judge not lest ye be judged, JC died so that sins oculd be forgiven, and so forth. nowehere have I ever heard that the central message pf Christianity was “Tell insane lies about gay people to advance a socio-political agenda” or “G hates fags” or “Make money and fame by disparaging in others what you cannot manage in yourself”. No integrity there.
They fail in intellectual integrity as well. The studies they quote do not say what they claim. They cannot be classified as knowledge in that they are not necessarily true– a survey of bar patrons in Ontario says nothing about gay men in general.
Any more than Paul Cameron’s claims about gay men dying young, culled from obituaries, has anything to do with reality. Worse, Cameron’s ‘research’ is an intent to deceive and manipulate. Black men also die younger than gay men, and freqently from violence. Yet no one is making a living denouncing black men.
That is the problem with their intellectual integrity. They are disparaging a whole group of people based upon faulty premises, illogic, and wishful thinking. Do you notice that people on this website, or Box Turtle, are absolutely scrupulous about data and interpetations? for myself, if i were going to do that, I would want to make sure that everything I said would be 100% true about 100% of the time. But my sense of edthics would preclude disparging just about any group apart form mass murderers and serial child molestors.
Finally, they fail integrity (imho) on a sexual level as well. I’m a really big fag because i always have been since the age of 3. To me, to pretend interest in women would be the height of dishonesty.
(and no, this isn’t going where you think it is going.)
I sincerely doubt that most of the exgays i read about here are actually straight, especially when they admit to gay thoughts and feelings. you’re right in your statement “Rather, they do not wish to identify as sexually impulsed beings, but beings that have a conscience and can CHOOSE whether to act with integrity towards God or towards their sexual attraction.”
I have no doubt that a small minority of people can”change” from truly gay to truly straight. Far stranger things have been accomplished. after all, in a world where a carpenter can be resurrected, anything is possible.
Where they seem to lack integrity is the failure of these people who say I’m not gay but my attractions are, to admit that they have always been bisexual, and just hated the part of themselves that leaned towards men, and so have attempted to make that wither.
To me, integrity would lie in admittting bisexuality.
“To me, integrity would lie in admittting bisexuality.”
I forgot to add this:
but then, there would be no drama, no gain, no political advantage, no sense of self righteousness, so feeling of superiority, no agenda to be pushed, nothing. Just plain simple honesty, which owuld allow one to simply move away from the “problem” of someone else’s sex life and then on to something that is actually, shall we say, IMPORTANT?
Where did you get this death rate for black men?
I’ve never really had a problem with this part(the fact thathe used obituaries) of Camerons research. If you want to find dead gay people you can either go to a funerary or a cementary(if they were labeled by sexual orientation), or… obituaries. They were not sifted through to see which ones died youngest but he took ANY obituary that he could. He could not go to closeted gay ppl, because that was impossible and would add nothing to the homosexual ‘lifestyle’ hes trying to condemn. He found what he was looking for, not through bias interpretation of the data he found, but through interpretation of the data which contributed to his bias. Everyone has a bias, more some than others, thus, having a bias MAY impede the research… but not always.
Where i think the bias seeped in was the claim that ALL gay men, BECAUSE they were living the ‘lifestyle’ would suffer the same fate. Not the fact that in his research, gay men died younger than the general population. Now… the claim IS far fetched. And false, imo. Thats like taking the obituaries of Europeans during the Bobonic Plague from 1347-1352 and establish that BECAUSE they were living in a God-forsaken land they would all suffer the same fate. Assuming God is under control of everything, of course, and with some ‘san fransisco earthquakes are God’s punishment to the gays and their allies’ logic.
By its definition(Encarta dictionary), integrity is “the quality of possessing and steadfastly adhering to high moral principles or professional standards”. Sure, they might be dishonest here and there, but i do not believe its intentional or because they are liers or even less because they dont have integrity. Its like some gay activist( w/ integrity) saying that being gay is genetic. That’s a bold claim hypothesis, ultimately dishonest, and a lie. Their is no conlusive evidence that it is, only research that suggests it, which is NOT the same thing. It would be rude, if not outright judgemental to say they do not have integrity, imo. Sure, they might be lieing here and there, but i dont think integrity revolves around truth, or truth only. Their integrity might have them saying stupid things but that only shows, to me, how much integrity they really have to their cause.
Where did you get this death rate for black men?
Joel — at the risk of replying to a question that asks which way is”up”…
Births and deaths are all recorded and published. Unassailable morbidity data is kept for age, race, location, cause of death… you name it, it’s kept… EXCEPT for sexuality.
Black men do have on average shorter lives than do white men. Ditto, with women.
Unlike official death statistics, not every death is recorded with an obituary; let alone every death recorded in any particular magazine.
When Cameron reported his summary of a few selected publications and declared that this was representative of gay men, or women, he was indeed giving a biased interpretation of the data. Data that was biased to begin with. Deliberately, on both counts.
And what on Earth do you think the “professional standards” part means with regard to integrity? It doesn’t have anything to do with adhering to some religious belief, and it certainly doesn’t mean you’re free to re-invent an established meaning for words.
Knowingly calling yourself something that you know the public will intepret one way and which is not what you know to be true… is deception. “Ex-gay” does not mean heterosexual, nor does “change” mean altered sexual attractions. I don’t need to read the Exodus fine print to know that the general public will however assume this is what an “ex-gay who changed” is suggesting has occured.
Honest professionals do not do that sort of thing, in any field of work. Clarity matters.
Snake-oil salesmen do it all the time. They’re carelessly selling something.
If you wish to test this, go onto any Christian blog and ask the simple question “Can homosexuals be changed into heterosexuals?”. You will get the deceptive sound-bites from Exodus et al back at you, and claimed as the proof.
At that point ask yourself: Why does this general public think ex-gays are proof that homosexuals can be changed into heterosexuals? Why does this general public not read the fine-print and understand the manipulated language?
Who is to blame for that situation? Me???
Joel wrote: ” They were not sifted through to see which ones died youngest but he took ANY obituary that he could. He could not go to closeted gay ppl, because that was impossible and would add nothing to the homosexual ‘lifestyle’ hes trying to condemn.”
This is exactly my point. This isn’t knowledge, and more than any other kind of propaganda is knowledge.
I agree with you when you say that it has not been proven that being gay is genetic. I’ve certainly never said so. But there is a tremendous amount of evidence that indicates that it is inborn in a way that might be construed as genetic, and which is not amendable to change, simply because it is NOT a choice.
I knew I was gay when I was perhaps three. I certianly knew by the age of six that whatever i was feeling was not something to be talked aobut. I remember when I was anbout 10 cming across the word homosexual and ralizing “oh, THAT’s what it is.’
“Sure, they might be dishonest here and there, but i do not believe its intentional or because they are liers or even less because they dont have integrity..’
you see, joel, that is exactly what I think it is.
Obituaries don’t contain enough information to be a reliable source of information. Unless the person writing them tells you how the deceased lived and what they died of you simply don’t have enough information.
Lifespan data that we do have is descriptive. It describes what happened, but cannot be used to predict how long any individual will live. A health screening from your doctor would be 1000 times more accurate than any generic table.
I question why Cameron even tried to collect the data in the first place.
There are too many flaws, quite frankly. Here’s who’s left out of that study of his:
1) Closeted gay men who are celibate or heterosexually active.(completely closeted)
2) Closeted gay men who were actively having homosexual sex.(partially closeted)
3) People who did not know about the gay papers.
4) People who didn’t like those particular gay papers or did not read them.
5) People who’s survivors did not read or know about the gay papers or did not know an obituary was an option.
6) People without any survivors to put forth an obituary.
7) People who’s survivors knew the deceased was gay but did not want to admit it.
8 ) People who’s survivors did not have the money to put forth an obituary (obituary’s aren’t free).
That’s a lot of people to leave out. All Cameron’s research shows is that the people he found died early — in other words his research is only indicative of the people he found, not anyone else. You can’t apply to a country or region, just that specific data set.
sorry, my whole post didn’t go up.
The very word ex-gay is I think an attempt to manipulate and deceive. As timothy kincaid puts it so eloquently: I’m not gay, but my attractions are. they are free, of course, to define and call themselves anything and everything they want. But when they attempt to limit my civil equality and perpetuate prejudice and discrimination by doing so, then i think gay people have a right to demand some integrity from them.
Let me give you an example. A very far-fethed f’rinstance. I could stop having sex with my husband today, and start have sex with women tomorrow (I said it was far fethched) and never touch a man again. That would not make me heterosexual. Being gay is innate to me. It is not simply my behavior. My integrity would not allow me to claim otherwise.
So, i contend it lacks integrity when these men claim that they are no longer gay, becuase everything i know about the subject, both academically and personally, suggests that gay is innate, as is straight, and as is bisexual.. I’ve heard only a few of them claim to be actually heterosexual (Larry Craig calling for Mr. Haggard! Larry Craig calling for Mr. Haggard!). Most say they are ex-gay, but they haven’t changed in any sense that I would understand change. But they intend to imply that they have.
Why is my orientation innate, but their’s is not, or so they claim? I would just point out as i did before– that there are such creatures as bi-sexuals, a known phenomenon, and for these men to claim they have changed from gay to striaght, or at least to ex-gay, when they are clearly describing bisexuality as anyone else would understand the term– well that seems to me to be highly dishonest.
They are attempting to fool somebody– whether themselves or others i don’t know. But to me it is obvious. They are intending to deceive unknowledgeable straight people into the idea that change is possible, when it clearly has not occurred.
I said this earlier, and it still applies: “To me, integrity would lie in admittting bisexuality.” but then, there would be no drama, no gain, no political advantage, no sense of self righteousness, so feeling of superiority, no agenda to be pushed, nothing. Just plain simple honesty, which owuld allow one to simply move away from the “problem” of someone else’s sex life and then on to something that is actually, shall we say, IMPORTANT?
ben, good point.
Why obsess about something you no longer do? I spend almost no time talking about how I used to be drinker and smoker. I don’t print out flyers or do lectures or rail against smokers and drinkers. I just don’t do those things anymore. My partner’s a smoker, my friends are drinkers, yet I don’t tell them there’s “freedom” from their “lifestyle” and I experience zero cravings to join them.
I’ve never understood “ex-gay” as a term, if they’ve really changed, 100% gay to 100% straight, they’re not ex-gay: they’re straight.
You are right heh… they never use the word bisexuality… wth. Maybe i missed it?
Well, unlike ppl here, i do not believe sexual attraction is fixed. I lean towards it being fluid. Why? because thats the only way i can accomodate the testimonies of ppl that claim they no longer have gay attraction, or that their attraction has diminished and the straight attraction has increased. In my experience… im between bi and gay, i think, and i dont ALWAYS feel attracted to men or women, it seems to me that its soemthing that comes and goes, dont see why it cant go forever, or maybe that just explains the ex-gay relapses(ITS THE DEVIL, I KNOW -_-).
Joel, there are very few things you can apply universally to our readers, including a belief in fixed sexual attraction. I’ve met people who said they were bisexual and I didn’t have any reason to disbelieve them. But I think we have to be careful that we don’t do the same thing we see ex-gay groups and therapists doing – take anecdotal observations and apply them to the world at large.
So far, even the best study from those who would no doubt love to see fluidity (Jones and Yarhouse, funded by Exodus) illustrates a very limited amount, and then only in those who were already bisexual. And these were people highly motivated to change.
If I were to go by my own experience, and those of most of my acquaintances, I would have to come up with a very different picture than yours, as I have never come even close to having sexual feelings for a woman. As I get older, my sex drive has diminished to some degree, but I am still sexually attracted only to other men.
This is why arguing one personal experience against another really doesn’t help much in the big picture. It can make for fascinating discussion though, as long as we look to more scientific methods for the facts.
Joel,
My problem with the testimonies is that I’ve seen a pattern over time that discourages me from giving them too much credit.
When Ex-Gay A tells you that their attractions have changed and a few years later they come out as gay, and then Ex-Gay B tells you that their attractions have changed and then they are caught in a gay bar, and then when Ex-Gay C tells you that their attractions have changed but they have some convoluted definition of what “change” means,
Well, when Ex-Gay D tells me his attractions have changed, I have a hard time taking this as evidence that sexual attraction is fluid.
That doesn’t mean it is definitely NOT fluid, it just means that I no longer place much trust in the testimony of ex-gays as a basis for anything to believe.