During the past four years, former ex-gay Peterson Toscano has been in contact with more than 1,000 “ex-gay survivors” — people who pursued ex-gay experiences, often assisted by a therapist, minister, ex-gay program.
At his blog, Toscano and his commenters are outlining numerous ways in which ex-gay experiences harm individuals or cause individuals’ existing sexual, emotional, social, spiritual and family difficulties to worsen.
It is evident that ex-gay ministries have harmed many. And it’s evident that ex-gay watch has an obvious bias, but how does Ex-gay watch acknowledge individuals that have experienced the opposite of harm and can outline all the good it has done?
When someone comes to Portland Fellowship we share that there are many in the gay community who are content and proud of their homosexuality and that is an open choice for them if they desire. I’m not affraid to admit that people find personal freedom as an openly gay person…
But I never really hear anyone from Ex-gay watch sharing that, for some, a good change has happened in the lives of those who go through a process that Exodus offers.
What would you say about someone like me who struggled with unwanted same-sex attraction, but is now married with children and extremely content with my life now, which I’m thankful of Portland Fellowship in helping me accomplish the personal desires of my heart?
Well, I would say, “Where are the rest of the folks like you?”
Exodus has been in existence for the past three decades and God has been in existence forever.
So if this change — as in permanent change — *not* revolving door, double lives, etc… is a viable reality at the very least — surely there should be verifiable evidence — as in human beings NOT theories and rhetoric and political witch hunts of the religious right to substantiate this.
Your own ministries do the best speaking on this topic, sadly to say — fallen leaders, reverted leaders, group members who “find” one another.
The proof of the pudding of change does rest with the “ex-gays”, surely there should be numbers of changees to balance out the plethora of ex-ex-gays.
However, they have yet to be spotted, at least in any substantial quantity.
Thank you for you comment.
Exgaywatch has many comments that question the validity of change, my question is.. what do you say about those, such as myself that have found a joyful changed life?
I understand you believe it’s not real, or it’s not scientifically proven, or the alike..
But if, as many people in Exodus share, have a list of very positive things that came from Exodus type… shouldn’t that be celebrated?
Jason,
If you are content, and living a life that you feel that you need to, why is it *necessary* that *anyone* “celebrate” it?
IOW isn’t it *enough* that you have arrived?
I’m not sure why you need *anyones’* stamp of approval is what I am trying to get at.
If you see that ex-gay watch is unjustified or unwarranted in watching to see the consistencies and inconsistencies of claims of change… than that is another issue. But I sense from your posting that you are O.K. with that.
But your current life should be reward enough for you.
Jason-
To turn the question around a little bit:
What do YOU say to someone like ME? I fit your own description perfectly for many years–almost 30 years, in fact. I was formerly gay, happily married, raised three children, had a successful career, was very content with my life. But as years went by, I came to feel more and more strongly that I was living a lie. I had not “changed.” My real orientation and identity remained gay. So at the age of 50, I ended my marriage and returned to my identity as a gay man.
Was I personally harmed by my ex-gay experience? I am very thankful that I have three great kids, all now adults, with whom I’m very close. I’m thankful that I was spared exposure to HIV in the early days of the AIDS plague. I am thankful for the many years of happiness I had with my wife. And I’m thankful that I’ve been blessed with a wonderful new life now, as an openly gay man.
But I am also very conscious of the harm and pain, especially to my former wife, that also resulted from my attempt to convince myself I had “changed.” How much better would it have been in the long term for me, for her, and for other people in our lives, if society and the church had encouraged me to pursue the same sort of stable, successful life as an openly gay man, rather than push me to build an identity at odds with my true self?
Jason, you may never come to regret your decisions or change your mind as I did. I sincerely hope that you and your wife remain happily united “as long as you both shall live.”
But for me, it’s difficult to consider even your successful outcome and not feel that ex-gay ministries encourage and create a huge amount of harm to their participants.
No, I don’t need anyone celebrating. I’m sorry if my post led you to think that. What I’m curious about is if Ex-gay watch can acknowledge men and women who find a positive life change because of what they experienced through Exodus related ministries. I am agreeing and acknowledging harm that has been done, I’m inquiring of the ability to acknowledge the good. Is that possible?
The therapy that I received when I was involved with an ex-gay ministry was helpful at a difficult time in my life–a time when I was recognizing that I had been in denial for a long, long, time. Granted, a gay affirming therapist would have been even better, but for the most part the therapy was a positive thing.
That said, I feel I need to comment that even in the case of Jason’s experience, he hasn’t acknowledged a change in sexual orientation. It is wonderful that Jason has found happiness in the life situation that he desires, but Exodus has been promising a change in sexual orientation not just a change in “lifestyle.” Will those who have experienced a transformation in sexual orientation please step forward?
“Acknowledge the good?” It sounds like you haven’t even taken care of the bad yet.
Wayne Besen: Thursday, February 23, 2006:
So Jason, what’s the deal with Phil Hobizal? His success story is still on your site.
And let’s not forget this.
Jason,
We’ve gone and reviewed the last two months of your newsletter, just to be sure you hadn’t in fact changed in recent times the message you’ve promoted for many years. You haven’t.
Although you may be willing to claim it here, there remains a conspicuous absence of any acknowledgement of the contented lives of the vast majority of gay men and lesbians anywhere on the Portland Fellowship site. I fail to find any acknowledgement of the harm done by exgay ministries. At best, you criticise only the lack of support for exgays within conservative religious churches.
Let me show how you described ex-ex-gays (it’s Aug 07, if you need reminding)
Your words are not openly acknowledging the harm done to these people, nor do you display any willingness to incorporate their experiences into your efforts. To the contrary, you simply dismiss them as weak-minded failures who are the enemy of Exodus.
Frankly, nobody here cares how you wish to live your life. There’s more than enough evidence that you were simply a rather lonely, confused and obsessive young man, rather than gay (despite your claims); but that’s also irrelevant to whether or not you are free to do whatever you wish. Nobody here is stopping you in any way, telling you to alter the way you live, or campaigning to have your marriage declared void.
Now, compare our indifference to how you live your life to the “advice” you gave a rather desperate sounding young man in June:
You know exactly what you are doing here: apart from misrepresenting homosexuality, you are deliberately amplifying the conflict that this young man is feeling.
Far from attempting to calm the concerns he has, the conflict that he feels, you are using those concerns to promote your personal religious agenda. As is all too typical of Exodus, you identify and then target people at their must vulnerable. You then feed them distorted ideas about homosexuality, and present a wildly exaggerated “hope for change”. When they fail to buckle under, when they refuse to be crippled, you abandon them.
Where do you imagine your technique leaves the majority, at the end of the day?
To help illustrate this further, I’ll allow you the opportunity to clearly and openly answer the following:
In your product targeted at young people “The Map” (Chapter 10 “Temptations”) you ask them to imagine homosexuality to be like something.
Please tell us, precisely, what that comparison is.
oops, a link would help. Also typo, the second comment is from July not June.
(sorry David — lost our link… so couldn’t edit. We must be the bane of your life.)
(I know this isn’t directed toward me, but I just had to give it a guess.)
___
If it’s about homosexuality, then the comparison must be about the love and happiness that homosexual couples experience in their relationships. Right?
So I guess the real question would be, how would someone – say for example Jason “I am agreeing and acknowledging that harm has been done” Thompson – describe to others, the love we have for our partners?
Hmm, well, I’m going to have to mull on that one…whatever the answer is though, clearly it must be synonymous with “sunshine, lollipops and rainbows…”
Right?
It’s always interesting to post a comment here, and then learn more as other comments are added. Yesterday, when I wrote my comment above, I had no idea who Jason Thompson was and what the Portland Fellowship represented, so I gave Jason the benefit of the doubt. I accepted that he sincerely affirmed the choice of an openly gay life as the path to freedom for many of us, and only wanted acknowledgement that some people also find good outcomes in their ex-gay experience. So I tried to be affirming of his life choices, even as I explained why the exact same choices had ultimately not worked for me, and had in fact caused great pain and harm in the long term.
Thanks to grantdale, I’ve now taken a look at some of the Portland Fellowship’s newsletters, and I realize that Jason’s plea was disingenuous at best. If the newsletters are representative of his approach–as I assume they must be–then I have to say he fails to show any respect, or even any honesty, when he discusses the choice of an openly gay life.
So let me repeat my earlier point, but without pussyfooting around:
Jason, the reason you won’t find much credence given on this site to those who claim a “positive life change because of what they experienced through Exodus related ministries” is that so many of us have been there and done that. At one point, we too convinced ourselves we were experiencing a “positive life change” through our efforts to become ex-gay. Some of us managed to keep that facade up for a long, long time. Yet eventually we realized we were lying to ourselves, and those lies were causing great harm to us and to other people in our lives.
Jason, if you were more forthright in your own comments, I might be willing to believe that your personal situation is different than that. But since you’re not fully honest with us about what the Portland Fellowship represents, why should I think you’re being honest with yourself?
Yeah, sure Emproph — sunshine, Mary Poppins, squeaky-clean and gurgling babies, cuddly puppy dogs and whatever else. Did I mention sunflowers and ruby slippers? No? Sink me!
You are soooo not right. The word “maggot” features… if that’s a clue 🙂
————————
NickC… it pays to go beyond. Otherwise, I have some swamp land in Florida that is for sale (somewhat ironically, not far from Exodus HQ). Call me.
“Jason” and “disingenuous” isn’t even the start of it.
But, hey, everyone’s got to make a living… sadly, at times. I honestly wish we weren’t dealing with people who’s identity wasn’t built around changing other people’s identities.
(and, as hun points out, there’s a classic lot of Oz double negatives in that… sorry Nick!)
I must say, another reason it’s hard to take Jason seriously is because, like others we have had from Exodus ministries, he doesn’t stick around to seriously discuss an issue. People are being more than civil, and have taken the time to bring up important details concerning the questions Jason asked, yet there is no response.
You are more than welcome to comment here Jason, but after this happens a few times, people don’t want to invest the effort in a detailed response. So are you serious about these issues or not?
This has been fascinating for me. Like Nick I initially took Jason as just some guy who had dealt with the issue and reached a different conclusion than I did. Thanks to Emproph and grantdale for doing the research.
When I first decided I had to come out several years ago, my family asked me to go for counseling with a Christian counselor they knew. I did, of course. I asked him if he could refer me to others, like me, who had been through the same issues and emerged as a happy and content straight guy.
He didn’t know anyone wno would talk to me. I thought at the time that was a little strange – you’re recommending reparative therapy but no one who has been through it will talk to me about their new life?
Now of course I know that – for the most part – the only ones who talk about it are those who make their living at it. Perhaps a little bit of an exaggeration, but not too much… and Jason proves it yet again.
Celbrating ex-gays is celebrating people who have deceived themselves. Tell yourself a lie so many times, you’ll start believing it.
The main problem is that ex-gays assume that they need to change by assuming that being gay is inherently wrong. Why would any gay-affirming group ever praise the work done by people who think that gay people need to change? We would we celebrating people who think that we are inherently wrong and in need of change.
I can appreciate peoples beliefs and support peoples decisions to live their lives as they want, but excuse me for not celebrating it.
David Roberts, and others..
There is plenty of assumption on these forums. It’s very difficult to answer questions posted on this site because it is mostly wrapped around accusations. For instance – There is – a not so subtle – accusation from David about not sticking around in a forum discussion–(The truthful answer is that I went home to my family), another is accusations about Phil Hobizal, which are also inaccurate (if anyone really cared why he left PF and how he and his family is doing I would be much more interested in dialoguing), and accusations about my honesty and motives (and I’ve said before, I have no desire to defend myself. You will think what you want, that is ok… Except that what you assume about me gets in the way of productive conversation and that is unfortunate.
I have a few additional questions that are sincere. I’ve always been interested in those who left ex-gay ministries, but have a difficult time having a productive conversation. Peterson, from my experience, has been one of the only willing to connect with good questions, observations, and constructive criticisms – even though we disagree with many things. (constructive criticism is importand for me and others in the Exodus movement, to make sure we don’t continue harming people that come to our ministries.)
Jason,
How did you describe homosexuality in The Map, Chapter 10?
Answer that, and be honest. People will read what you say.
Refuse to answer, and we will on your behalf.
You decide.
go ahead Grantdale…
or better yet, you can get the product and judge it yourself.
(and before anyone says I’m having grantdale buy it so we can get more money…. You, Grantdale can personally call me and I’ll send you a comp. copy.)
Jason,
I am a little disappointed that you’re still not answering the honest and reasonable questions that are posed — instead of answering questions, you object to this site for raising or repeating the concerns.
Nothing is stopping you from responding to the earlier conversations that you walked away from, nor from responding directly to the questions and concerns raised in this one. If you’d like for us to reopen specific old conversations so that you can respond with factual answers, just let us know. If you’d prefer to answer the same concerns, but at Peterson’s site, there’s nothing stopping you from doing that, either.
Last chance Jason. We’ve actually been very generous with you. (and we reviewed your “product” several years ago. But appreciate your offer of the expense at nothing more than a Skype call. Expect it, and pay up.)
Cannot bring yourself to say it, right? Are you too embarrassed?
You do realise… anytime you pop your head up here, or elsewhere, people will be linked to this conversation?
You are a fake. We know it. You know it. You were never gay. Your behaviour, now, will let the rest of the World know just what sort of honesty you hold to as a person.
(Gawd, it’s silly Chad all over again… unaccountable and thinks therefore impervious… where do these exgay “leaders” find their attitudes…)
As we’ve said to Alan Chambers… behave yourself, be careful of what you say… because some day you’ll be answering to your children. And hopefully they are not idiots.
Jason — you’ve gone from charm to smarm in a few short posts. Says a lot about you.
Seriously, it’s always about “helping those who WANT help” and “freedom of choice” at first… but then when it really comes down to it, when they are pushed enough, these ex-gay ministers start to lose their rosy surface and have to give you a real “psychological/scientific” reason to switch teams; that it’s unhealthy or unfulfilling, that it’s not love but lust, that the love you feel for another person of the same gender is really something masking something else. Then it becomes about hate for what you are. Why can’t love just be love? I have deeply loved plenty of women without bringing sexual action into it (and that’s all I’m saying on the matter) but with these ex-gay ministries, it’s not enough that you feel love. To them no such love could ever exist. And if people should choose to express their love through sexual actions, as straights do, that is also natural. But just like straight love, gay love goes the same path and shares the same complexities. it’s not this simple pathology that Joseph Nicolosi et al claim it is. Why does it make so much sense for these people to fight someone’s love with their own hate?
“helping those who want it?” well, no healthy well-adjusted self-loving gay person would ever want it.
Jason-
As you say, there is plenty of assumption on these forums. For example, when someone says
then I assume the newsletter of that person’s organization will not simply repeat all the old tired stereotypes of gay life as nothing but lust, disease, and mental problems. Yet I read your newsletters, and that’s what I found.
I also assume that when I directly pose questions and raise issues with another person in the forum, that person will make some response. You asked all of us, “What would you say about someone like me…?” and we have responded, whether you like our replies or not. I asked you the same question, and have seen no response from you at all.
Mr. Thompson, in the interest of constructive criticism let me offer the following thoughts:
1. The ex-gay movement seems blind to the fact that it is often aligned with people who are deeply biased against GLBT people. How does the movement explain such things as quoting Paul Cameron or having Ken Hutcherson as a speaker?
2. The ex-gay movement seems to be incapable of consistent presentation of what ‘change’ actually looks like. For example, the inconsistencies between what Mr. Chambers says and what is actually displayed in the text of the Exodus International website.
3. The ex-gay movement has yet to produce a viable study or a survey that corroborates claims of sexual orientation change.
4. Ex-gays as a group seem strangely invisible in a society where there are numerous ways of gaining social visibility.
5. The ex-gay movement seems unaware of the fact that delving into politics, particularly lobbying against the GLBT community, is highly destructive to its credibility.
6. The ex-gay movement does not seem to mind the exploitation of the movement by the right-wing and by so-called family values groups.
On a more individual note, Mr. Thompson you stated that you personally think that people have the choice to live as openly gay, that this is a freedom they have, yet the movement you are involved in is built on the premise that being gay is against God’s will, that God requires GLBT people to change their sexuality. (And if that wasn’t enough, this same movement is openly aligned with those who make it crystal clear that they have no intention of extending any form of respect or equality to GLBT people.) How can you possibly expect me or anyone else to think that your personal opinion somehow outweighs the agenda of your movement?
Jason,
I must weigh in this way. Very often I make contextural (and historical) comparisons to the attacks on the self esteem of gay youngsters, to that of black youngsters during Jim Crow and other segregated institutions.
Or to that of the standards of beauty that make females want to get breast implants when being small breasted not only carries no health problems, but is neither a hindrance to the woman’s competence and talents.
These are issues that effect the very people in society, who have had to live under legal and institutionalized prejudice and discrimination. The correlation between opportunity, environment and status and being female, black and/or gay in America is no accident.
This is also evidence that genetic normalcy is no protections against institutionalized discrimination and isolation from opportunity and growth.
I can remember early in life how imagery, language and the lack of role models allowed before me colored my view of myself and my hopes of fitting in. Gay and lesbian children ARE isolated from those gays and lesbians who contributed to history, are socially integrated and successful and are presented with imagery that is stereotypical and damaging to hope.
The ex gay movement constantly bombards gay young people AND their families and others of influence in their lives with information that homosexuality and disease and maladjustement are INEVITABLE.
And most of all that NOT being gay, being celibate and living in the heterosexual standard is THE only preferred and acceptable option.
While throwing in the power and influence of religion for good measure.
And at the same time, work hard to maintain the very social isolation and political influence to fulfill this.
I have worked VERY hard to get those who assert they are no longer gay to be straight with me, no pun intended.
On WHAT exactly improvement actually is? I mean it’s OBVIOUSLY easier to BE a heterosexual. It’s easier only because it’s not challenged and no one is discriminated against.
But that is in the PUBLIC arena.
In the PRIVATE one, it’s not easy to be straight either. Relationships, expectations in them and one’s responsibility to honesty and openness are vital to ANY relationship. Even to one’s self.
I have plenty of straight friends that are unrealistic about what to expect in relationships and what they are willing to give.
In the area of straight people relate TO gay people, the relationship is seriously skewed because of the same unrealistic and unfair…most of all UNNECESSARY burden that is placed on gay people to CONFORM by any means necessary.
Hedging compliance all the while with cruell institutional discrimination.
This takes the matter of choice out of all parts of the equation.
Choice in honesty, choice in who has MORE of a choice for real happiness or choice in who would marry who, if the option were there to hope for in the first place.
One’s happiness shouldn’t have to come at the sacrifice of one’s original identity, and straight people the SOLE arbiter of what identity is legitimate.
Even in the eyes of God.
Gays and lesbians don’t even have much choice in being honest with the straight world without serious consequences that not only jeopardize their happiness, but their very lives.
There was a time when it looked like being white, having straight hair and a narrow nose was the difference between whether or not someone would have a job.
It STILL is like that. The industry I work in does NOT give equal measure to ‘my kind’.
And if someone had come to me and said, ‘I can make you white’ with enough prayer and money, I might have tried it.
The problem, as you well know isn’t my color, it’s the institutions around me that editorialize about MY ABILITY.
I know, I know….being gay isn’t a physical issue.
So WHAT? Being Jewish is, but that hasn’t stopped anti Semitism.
The point I”m making is this: the general public is VERY ignorant about gay people and homosexuality. Regardless of homosexuality’s indigenous and universal presence.
What ex gays do, is like squids….put ink in clear water and obsure what could be seen. Gay people are too misunderstood and mistreated BECAUSE of this misunderstanding.
And if they have to ink the water, it’s because they don’t want the REAL gay people to stand up and be accounted for.
Well….why? Why NOT learn more, and clarify this issue once and for all with the very people it matters to.
Gay folk.
Ex gays don’t help the public learn any more but medieval and outdated information about homosexuality.
The truth can only be known, when the squids STOP and give the water time to clear and the public the opportunity to really know who gay people are.
Information itself must make progress. And so far, ex gays and the ex gay industry are very, very lacking in it.
PS: it was, best recollection, a nut-covered toffee apple… full of maggots.
(youse people prob’ly say “taffy” or summit)
That is what Jason asked young people to imagine their gay attractions to be. (actually, I think he called them “temptations” rather than attractions throughout that chapter).
Not that he was trying to bend their minds outta shape or nothing.
And any wonder he dare not repeat it in public, here or anywhere. Yah, he’s a fake.
(You’ll have to print off the Chapter 10 doc to get that. Sadly the DVD we reviewed was, umm , a “copy”. Quite a few of the later chapters were mangled — 12+. But we are delighted Jason has offered us a real copy at no expense. Fab, an exgay freeby!)
Now… always annoying… got to work out when Portland and Melbourne time coincide for that phone call. West coast USA is always just out of sync. (Chevron HO, I mean you!)
I only wish we were making Jason wear the expense of posting a bed or a wardrobe or a massive brass ship’s propeller to Australia…
There’s a good review of “The Map” here, with a synopsis of the lessons.
Which includes…
___
Now lets use it in a sentence:
Jason Thompson said (bold mine)…
Emproph’s translated version…
Much better.
Good Lord Jason, what on earth are you teaching people man? That is disgusting and degrading. If you are going to drop by and plead for understanding, you better explain that stuff first. Do you actually believe that nonsense?
We see… no response from Jason… push came to shove — oh so typical of him.
There’s an expression we’d like to use – one our grandmother’s would have… about wearing a new dress on top and, underneath, wearing knickers full of holes.
Jason, your holes are in public view. And that’s not nice, you know.
(apols for delay everyone: work, and death in family. Life’s two big botherations. None the less, expect that call Jason…)