Beyond Ex-Gay has posted apology letters from Vonnie Pitts, Wendy Lawson and Kim Brett, former leaders of ex-gay ministries in Australia. According to the press release, Pitts, Lawson and Brett were inspired by the public apology issued in June by Darlene Bogle, Michael Bussee and Jeremy Marks.
The press release also mentions that former ex-gay Anthony Venn-Brown will be appearing on the Australian version of Sixty Minutes this Sunday, August 19.
Additional coverage: Box Turtle Bulletin, Soulforce, and Beyond Ex-Gay.
These are, as are Michael Bussee…people who wanted to change their sexual orientation from gay to straight. It goes without saying that most people are born into homes that give some religious teaching to the children.
However, most straight people are stubbornly committed to the opinion that it’s ONLY homosexuals who can change and give little thought to gay orientation have the same fixed features as heterosexuality, just without the inculcation and pressure to be all things hetersexual.
And also evidently, there is no concept of a GAY child or the awareness of same sex attraction starting young, without the influence of sexual stimulation or not (same sex parental neglect).
I am always VERY disturbed at how many straight people resort to condescension when talking about this issue with a gay person.
No matter what a gay person says about their experience, or the empirical evidence that comes from researchers talking to thousands of OTHER gay people…it’s still disbelieved that gay orientation is a choice.
However, when you ask a straight person what it would take to make THEM change into a gay person-the answer is virtually nothing, not even the threat of death.
When you ask a straight person when THEY choose to be straight, they either hadn’t thought of it, or can answer ‘they were always this way’.
Now my bigger question is, why is it like pulling teeth to get these straight folks to even simply consider, that the question of sexuality is the same for all concerned?
And a lot of time, energy, money and mental health…is being wasted on the folly of this single mindedness about heterosexuality?
And heterosexuality is still no cure for child abuse, divorce, adultery, addiction, low self esteem, commitment shyness, domestic violence, and job insecurity and promiscuity.
Is it?
Ex gay ministries and therapies, to my mind…are self centered and a pursuit rife with vanity.
As a straight person, they prove nothing is so wonderful about being straight either.
They only prove that not many people are willing to understand, or be more informed, or sensitive about it.
Alleged ex gays seem to consider themselves expert on the motives and abilties of other gay people because that’s where they once were.
However, I see them as people EXTREMELY insecure about their sexuality. Which is a calculation of course. And it wouldn’t be hard to find a gay people who are so.
However, they seem to resent those of us who ARE secure in our sexuality, gay or not.
They covet the straight people who are, and resent the gay people who are.
Which still makes them some messed up folk, IMHO.
I think most people who come into themselves, and hopefully when they ARE young before too much of life passes them by, are to be supported…gay or not.
Self knowlege, self determination and self esteem based on other accomplishments beside being hetero (big whoop), beat self righteousness disguised as moral reform every time.
I wish these good people, the best of luck.
Regan DuCasse wrote:
Its a fact that more straights change into gays, than gays change into straights! I have had a few gay friends who said they were not attracted to other men before in their late twenties. Of course most gay people will claim that these men were gay all the time but just repressed their same sex attractions. When a straight persons come out as gay this kind of change is highly encouraged among GLBT-people. They will not be demeaned, ridiculed and be subject to the distrust persons who change from gay to straight.
Accounts from some inmates who always considered themselves straight show that “The threat of death” did indeed turn them gay. 10-15 years of being raped and having only male-male relationships did turn them gay and they identify themselves as gay. I saw a documentary about that.
Marcus, all this hearsay is becoming tiresome. You have been asked — all too many times — to make sure you provide backup for your claims, and not to extend your personal experiences into an all encompassing Truth.
“a few gay friends” … “highly encouraged among gay people” … “a documentary”
And you wonder why there is distrust? It’s all too convenient, OK? And makes it very hard for others to discuss any issues that you genuinely might wish to raise.
“The threat of death” did indeed turn them gay. 10-15 years of being raped
Now… are you, at this point, actually stating the type of “effort” that is required to “change”??? This sort of thing doesn’t strike us as an ethical pressure to put on people.
(And before you rail at us, we’d actually agree that only that sort of coercion could “work”. Whether it’s true change, or simply being thoroughly forced out of shape — to hopefuly later revert back to the underlying sexuality — is another debate.)
Marcus said:
Marcus, give us supporting data on these claims or retract them. If you are going state something as fact, particularly something as far-fetched as that first one, you are responsible for also providing the underlying support – authoritative data which claims this is so. As well, show data that supports the idea that prison “turns” anyone gay as opposed to subjecting them to violent rape, or at best situational homosexuality. In case you don’t know, rape is no more sexual now than it was in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Prove it or retract it Marcus, this is getting old.
I see a double standard being applied here: pro-gay commentators can make all the unsubstantiated assumptions , pass on hearsay, make heterophobic biased statements they want and they will never be called “Tiredsome”, untrustworthy, or be asked to provide backup for their claims, substantiate, document, prove it or told to retract “it” like ex-gay commentators are.
Examples Regan DuCasse wrote:
I did not see David Roberts or commentators telling Regan DuCasse to substantiate, provide evidence for, or prove these claims or stop making them/retract them/cease making them.
I did not see David Roberts or commentators telling Regan DuCasse to substantiate, provide evidence for, or prove these claims or stop making them/retract them/cease making them.
I did not see David Roberts or commentators telling Regan DuCasse to substantiate, provide evidence for, or prove these claims or stop making them/retract them/cease making them.
I did not see David Roberts or commentators telling Regan DuCasse to substantiate, provide evidence for, or prove these claims or stop making them/retract them/cease making them.
I did not see David Roberts or commentators telling Regan DuCasse to substantiate, provide evidence for, or prove these claims or stop making them/retract them/cease making them.
I did not see David Roberts or commentators telling Regan DuCasse to substantiate, provide evidence for, or prove these claims or stop making them/retract them/cease making them.
I did not see David Roberts or commentators telling Regan DuCasse to substantiate, provide evidence for, or prove these claims or stop making them/retract them/cease making them.
I did not see David Roberts or commentators telling Regan DuCasse to substantiate, provide evidence for, or prove these claims or stop making them/retract them/cease making them.
I did not see David Roberts or commentators telling Regan DuCasse to substantiate, provide evidence for, or prove these claims or stop making them/retract them/cease making them.
I did not see David Roberts or commentators telling Regan DuCasse to substantiate, provide evidence for, or prove these claims or stop making them/retract them/cease making them.
Since I am being asked this when I make comment it is only fair that others are being asked the same or is there a double standard here on ExgayWatch? One for pro-gay commentators and one for ex-gay commentators?
If Regan DuCasse are able to sustantiate, provide evidence for, or prove every single one of the above cited claims made. (And evidence must be social studies published in independent scientific journals, double controlled, replicated and peer reviewed … it seems to be the standard ExgayWatch authors ask of Ex-gays) I will be glad to do the same when I make comments.
The reality is that the vast majority of people who seek to change and suppress their sexuality fail. They pursue an ex-gay life and incur dreadful costs resulting in emotional, psychological and spiritual harm. More and more we see people coming forward to attest to this reality.
Having three more ex-gay leaders, who dedicated their lives to the ex-gay cause, apologize for their part in providing and promoting ex-gay ministry, adds even more weight to this growing public testimony.
Marcus:
the following statements are Regan’s opinion and do not need proof, because no one can contest that you have a thought.
Marcus there is a huge difference in stating your opinion and proclaiming something to be a fact. Regan makes it clear that she is speaking from her own point of view, and while you appear to be doing the same, you pop up with these ‘Well it’s a fact’ type comments. If you are going to declare something to be true you have to back it up. It’s all in the presentation.
I think one problem is that so much evidence to support some of Regan’s opinions has been presented here at XGW and other gay sites that we as frequent commentators take it for granted. But Box Turtle Bulletin provides some good resources, maybe Marcus could take a look at those – I know he already lurks around there. :-
Marcus,
As a former member of the APA, now retired, I see that most of what Regan Ducasse mentions is well documented by 50+ years of research in the area, which most of us here are familiar with. We don’t need to have it cited over and over.
In contrast, your idle speculations are so far out of the mainstream that you ought to back up what you say with some form of documentation.
Inmates become “gay” after being raped enough times??? What kind of nonsense is that?
If most of what Regan DuCasse mentions is well documented by 50+ years “research” and there like Emily K mentions is so much evidence in the area then I look very much forward to see every one of the above cited claims substantiated, provided evidence for or proved . (And evidence must be social studies published in independent scientific journals, double controlled, replicated and peer reviewed … it seems to be the standard ExgayWatch authors ask of Ex-gays). It should be a piece of cake to provide this evidence then.
And Emily K. I do not lurk. I express my opinions 🙂
Marcus,
You are seeing what you want to see. David Roberts has insisted MANY times that pro-gay commentors substantiate their claims. Since the time I’ve been volunteering as a writer here, I believe there have been more openly gay folks banned from commenting here than ex-gays. I can substantiate that claim(if you’d like), and if I’m remiss I will apologize for making it. I could name three gay folks just off the top of my head who’ve been banned, but I won’t. 😉
Marcus, as someone who has been out for 17 years now, I have never met a gay male who has said they were straight and then turned gay. There are a few who said they were bisexual before coming out (probably because it would be easier psychologically). Societal pressure would make such things highly unlikely. I have met a few females that were straight and then gay, but I have never met a male like that. That is not to say it is not possible.
As far as distrust, when Anne Heche came out on Oprah and said she was gay and always gay, most gay people I know (and myself) tended to think it was disingenous. Someone suddenly claiming that they are someone that noone knew is disconcerting.
As far as prison goes, there is a type of homosexuality known as conditional homosexuality. Even some animals go through this. When the population is mainly same-sex and the sexuality is limited, yes some people will have gay sex when they normally would not (military, isolation, etc.), but I know of no cases where people “identify” as gay in such situations. I am sure there may be exceptions, but when these people are released to the world, they resort to their normal behavior.
Marcus,
I am still curious where you came up with the comments about more straights going gay than the other way around, and that repetitive forcible rape in prison converting someone gay. You never really answered that. Instead you just decided to dissect every comment Regan had made. Should I take that to mean that you just pulled the straight to gay and prison rape comments from thin air.
I would tell people I was straight because I wanted to be straight. Maybe that is what Marcus meant. (Just trying to find the good in all people!) 🙂
Marcus…you in a way, validated my point. Men in prison…or women, after 10-15 years….are captive. They are in a play they cannot escape or in which their situation isn’t under extreme and controlled duress. If you’re insisting these are people who have become gay…..LOOK AT WHAT IT WOULD TAKE!
Threat of death, captivity, a population ALL of the same sex, who are intimidating you 24/7 with no relief or protection in sight!
An average citizen, with non experience with prison (a prospect which keeps most of us in check and mostly our imaginations to fuel our idea of prison), STILL is unlikely to take into much consideration what they are demanding of gay people.
The proof being, how emboldened organziations for the purpose of estranging gay people from their civil rights, AND their families and function in their own destiny.
I’m doing a lot of blogging in conservative venues. And several straight people there consider themselves quite expert on gay lives…with obviously very little personal experience that isn’t superficial and abstract.
However, the OTHER people who invest time there, will argue ad infinitum with a gay person (who are few to bother anyway) over whether being gay is a choice or not. This walls off discussion from the most reliable source to speak on the subject.
Complaining about ME and my treatment here doesn’t help YOUR case. I can remember being spanked by Michael Airhart for not substantiating something. Which was an oversight most times, not a matter of not having it at all.
Marcus, you have been asked to substantiate wild claims of fact just alike anyone else would be. You can dissect Regan’s comments all you like but they contain nothing like what I asked you to support – it’s a Red Herring.
You have one more chance, prove your statements with some reasonably authoritative reference or retract them. We aren’t going to waste any more discussion based on something pulled out of the air.
Since I am being asked this when I make comment it is only fair that others are being asked the same or is there a double standard here on ExgayWatch?
This would be the “All the other kids are doing it so why can’t I” defense…? Well there’s a high standard of righteousness for you…
There’s a reason why the statistics that ex-gay supporters throw out are suspect until proven otherwise, and it isn’t a double standard and it isn’t knee jerk bias. It’s history. A long, and stench filled history of junk science, and playing fast and loose with cites and sources in general.
And I can’t speak for the others here, but there’s a reason why I’m skeptical of your claims specifically and that’s the Salt Lake Tribune article you linked to in another thread. You’ll recall that, at face value, it looked like an article by an impartial group of therapists who looked at the evidence for a biological basis for sexual orientation and found it wanting. So I did a little digging to find out who those people were…and lo and behold I see a bunch of folks from various ex-gay ministries and NARTH. Not exactly reliable, let alone impartial sources. Did you know about that when you gave us that link?
It’s not a double standard to not trust someone’s grasp of the facts, when they keep dispensing facts that can’t be trusted.
In other news...
Two more former ex-gay leaders in Australia announce they too have had a shift in perspective.
Anthony Venn-Brown posted a blog entry with statements from John Meteyard, former Exodus Asia Pacific & Living Waters leader and former member of the International Advisory Board of Exodus and Paul Martin, a former Exodus leader from Melbourne who currently works as a psychologist.
Reflecting on his experience Paul Martin states,
Some current ex-gay leaders now admit that such a change is not realistic and should not be sought after. Their ads still proclaim a different message. But even when people concede that change in orientation is not possible, they still insist that gays and lesbians and bisexuals must suppress and deny their same-sex orientation. Any other course is unholy.
The message that comes through loud and clear from former ex-gay leaders like John, Paul, Vonnie, Wendy, Kim along with Jeremy, Darlene and Micheal is that pursuing an ex-gay course causes more harm than good.
This runs consistent with what we find with the many ex-gay survivors Christine Bakke and I have met in the past few years. From ex-gay leaders themselves, we know that most ex-gay consumers do not find the success they desired and ex-gay leaders and ads promise.
What happens to these people?
What are the costs to ex-gay conversion therapies and ministries?
The statements coming out these past few months from ex-gay survivors and former ex-gay leaders help to highlight these questions and offer some answers.
It appears Marcus has no evidence to substantiate his claims of fact, but instead has spent his time deflecting the request.
As anyone who has read XGW long, you will understand that we require substantiation for bold claims of fact from everyone. An analogy I have used before still holds: if you tell me you dropped a brick and it fell to the ground, I might accept that at face value. If you tell me instead that it floated into the sky, I will be asking for proof.
If something is a fact, there will be evidence to back it up — please provide it and we will have a reasonable foundation for discussion. “I saw it once in a documentary” is not proof if you want us to assume something is factual.
I was interrupted before I could finish my thought, but Aaron furthered the point so maybe I don’t have to. Except to remind Marcus that even this prison population he’s trying to have as an example, are STILL not necessarily CHANGING orientation, but are forced into their circumstances.
It still stands that this is duress, and most very young gay people ARE under a great deal of pressure to conform. The threat and insensitivity and ignorance all around them lead up to MORE profound issues that might not otherwise happen.
Sometimes asking those that say they are ex gay how they might have fared had they been accepted and supported as gay when they were young. And I have as YET to be answered by Alan Chambers or Warren Throckmorton on that question. And it’s a fair one.
It’s getting old seeing how those that are anti gay, really DON”T consider anything but one track. And how incurious they are about reversing the situation.
And there really is NO compelling reason to change gay people into anything else.
Heterosexuality isn’t the cure for any other ills a person might have, so how could it possibly be the cure for homosexuality?
Oh, and by the way, purple aliens have landed and abducted both gays and ex-gays for experimental purposes…
Just checking to see if anyone can see beyond the distraction to the actual content of the original post and the unfolding story.
This whole thing has a very “flat earth” feel to it. Althought there is plenty to show that the accepted view (earth is flat/gays can change) is wrong, people continue to hold to that belief instead of believing what people are telling them (people didn’t fall off the edge/gays can’t easily change).
It takes much more moral strength for former ex-gay leaders to come out and tell the world that they were wrong and weren’t being honest about their own claims of change. This is much more useful to the public than just disappearing after they become disillusioned.
Hear hear, John!
Without all the players at the table, there is no option at getting to the truth.
I know and realize there are enough gay people who, even if they didn’t go through a FORMAL religious process of ex gay ministry or therapy, have gone through trying to affect and live the public lives of heterosexuals.
Especially by marrying to the opposite sex and having children.
Pam Ferguson was married so such a man. A dear friend of mine, terrified to come out, felt compelled to marry and all that. Even against the advice of many of our mutual friends who’d already tried that.
This is THE most comprehensive evidence at what a huge mistake it is to do this to gays and lesbians.
And at the same time, not engaging in making society more accepting and realistic about homosexuality to see what would happen.
This is also an industry that insists that gay people are incapable or it’s impossible to be gay and well adjusted and happy in life.
Well, as long as they are working to establish or maintain institutionalized discimination to assure that issue, how would they know?
However, that many gay people manage it, IN SPITE of said institutions, it’s right to consider THIS as the most compelling evidence that gay people have potential that should be tapped, rather than capped.
I think that there is a bottomless kind of intellectual cowardice on the part of those who support this ministry and therapy.
Especially because the means to deal honestly with gay people or their supporters-gets ignored, or banned altogether.
To counter the claim that you can “catch gay” through years of prison or any other means, the book at the following link can shed light. https://www.amazon.com/Guardians-Flutes-1-Idioms-Masculinity/dp/0226327493
is a go
And if being raped horribly in captivity is the only way to change your sexuality, does that mean the only way for gays to go hetero is to be raped again and again in captivity, for years and years?
Although, in retrospect, I think many ex-gays feel this is exactly what’s happening to them while in reparative “therapy” – at least on a psychological level. (And yet people STILL aren’t coming out hetero.)
Emily my dear….there is a VERY indelicate way of putting exactly what this reparative ministry or therapy is.
It starts from childhood and simply more reinforced through this process.
They might try and give it clinical names, and a gentle sounding motive and method.
But a mind f**k, is a mindf**k, by any other name.
The motives and methods are still demeaning and depressing as any other mindf**k can get.
And maybe getting through to the likes of who advocating might require we go there. To not only let them know we’re onto what they are doing, but what the intent really is.
I suppose this is why I bring up the context of Asians who have wanted eye surgery, breast implants, burning one’s scalp to straighten hair and anorexia.
These are all destructive methods to achieve (normalcy) by people who ARE normal.
Yet who have been damaged psychologically to the point of enduring such pain to conform.
Now THERE is a serious rape of the self esteem and the worth of a person’s natural attributes.
And it figures, that women suffer most of all. Even where wrinkle creams are concerned….who are the models they use in the ads for them?
Women!
As IF!
The folks who propagate what they think normal is, have already jacked up generations of people.
And they can’t be trusted with gay people to know what the heck they are doing with this issue either.