A little over a week ago, three former Exodus leaders issued an apology “to those individuals and families who believed our message that there is something inherently wrong with being gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender.” In response, Exodus president Alan Chambers wrote an entry in his personal blog claiming, among other things, that he forgave one of the three, Darlene Bogle, for negatively affecting him when she made the “decision to go back into homosexuality.” The post had a terse tone to it and elicited strong responses.
We wanted to dig further into his thoughts on this, so we asked Chambers to respond to some questions and he agreed to do so. The following is the result.
XGW: Your comments in general in this blog entry seem terse and almost a product of anger and frustration. Is this the case? Do you stand behind all that you said solidly or do you wish to make any modifications after a couple of days have passed?
Chambers: The post was terse. Of course I was frustrated. In my opinion the press conference and counter conference were for the purpose of hijacking our event. We don’t hold conferences that contend with conferences that the gay community holds. We don’t demonstrate at the gates of those conferences. We don’t hold press conferences that seek to interfere with pride events or the like. I found the countering of our event via these means in poor taste.
XGW: It comes through clearly that you think those who were involved in Exodus before should just go about their lives and stop talking about their experiences. What if they do not feel this is what God wants them to do? Can you allow for the possibility that they are doing just what He would have them do?
Chambers: I have been very open to dialogue with Darlene Bogle and Michael Bussee. I am interested in what they have to say. It seems that they want to discredit Exodus when they can only discredit themselves. Their stories aren’t the stories of the majority of leaders who have been a part of the ministry. They chose to leave Exodus and to pursue what they believe to be the best for themselves. God bless them. Move on.
XGW: There is a time and place for everything, do you think this was the appropriate time for you to bring up an apology that may be owed to you?
Chambers: I found it ironic that they were asking for forgiveness from everyone but those within the ministry of Exodus. Their apologies weren’t really apologies but rather statements about the ineffectiveness of Exodus as a ministry. I found their apologies hollow and self-serving. I merely played their game and turned it into an apology for the real people who were hurt: the folks they harmed by living double lives.
Chambers is on vacation so we were limited on time, but he did answer all the questions we put to him. I believe his responses were candid, though I don’t think he addressed the second question as well as he could have. What do you think? Are any of his points valid to you?
Correct me if I’m wrong but is Chambers saying that the former ex-gay leaders that apologized were leading double lives while they were still leaders of the ex-gay ministries? Doesn’t that sound like the pot calling the kettle black? How many of these current ex-gay leaders are claiming and “promoting a cure” all the while they themselves are still having SSA’s and their orientation really hasn’t changed? Just because the former ex-gay leaders woke up to the realization that nothing changed for them and admitted their mistake and apologized, Alan lashes back by saying they were leading double lives?
In every apology I read, the three making the apologies were sincere, honest and genuinely seeking to mend the damage they personally felt responsible for presenting. This isn’t a game as Alan Chambers suggests, and reveals the bitter, sinister side of himself and again makes himself out to be a victim. Pathetic!
I’d like to take serious issue with Alan’s claim that Exodus does not hold events that seek to contend or interfere with pride or other similar events. This is the second time I’ve read this claim from him, and I simply don’t see it as being true.
From Exodus’ own website (and Focus on the Family’s press release) they held Love Won out in Seattle in June 2005 , which was during Seattle’s Pride festivities.
In the press release, Mike Haley himself claims that “As the homosexual life is celebrated in ‘gay-pride’ events throughout Seattle, we will be there to offer a different message – one of hope and healing for those who don’t share that sense of pride.”
So, they were there during Pride to offer a “different message.” That sounds like offering a “counter conference” to me…at least as much as Beyond Ex-Gay was a “counter conference.”
Purely from a psychological point of view, it’s entirely inappropriate for someone to tell someone else to “move on” just because you don’t like their message (actually, even that doesn’t matter, imo; it’s just really patronizing, rude, and uncalled for especially when you are talking to people who aren’t a part of your life). It minimizes the damage experienced by these individuals, and also those of us who have been harmed by our ex-gay experiences. It also seeks to minimize the real guilt and anguish felt by these former leaders for their roles in the Exodus organization.
As one of the conference organizers, I can say without reservation that these apologies were sincere. These three were preparing to participate in an event that dealt with the damage and harm people experienced as a result of ex-gay ministries and rhetoric. These former leaders do indeed feel pain and regret for their involvement in a movement that hurt people, and, in fact, destroyed some lives. They felt an apology would be a salve to some of the wounds still carried by former ex-gays, and they were right.
It seems once again that that the ex-gay movement doesn’t have a heart for folks that leave these ministries, and that is so incredibly sad. A dismissive “move on” doesn’t help, as many folks at our conference expressed feelings of being in limbo; that the hurt was so great, the pain so immense, and the damage so extensive that they didn’t know how to move on. Thankfully the conference was able to help some of these folks on the path to healing.
That aside, I don’t know if there were protests at the gates of the Exodus conference (it sounds like Alan is saying there was, which wouldn’t surprise me given how strongly people feel about Exodus politics). If there were, the conference organizers sure did not know about it, endorse it or have anything to do with it. We actually printed the following on the first page of our Conference program:
Alan said: “I found their apologies hollow and self-serving. I merely played their game…” I don’t know why Alan thinks I need to apologize for “living a double life”. I have already apologized for that many, many times before — including in my recent apology to those harmed by the “ex-gay” message I preached.
If this is how he really feels about me, I am wondering how Alan can say on his blog that he “genuinely likes” me — and why he has posted several times that considers me his “friend.”
I would never call my “friends” “hollow” or “self-serving” — and we certainly don’t “play games” with each other’s sincere emotions and real life-experiences. We don’t dismiss each other with a terse “move on.” We listen.
It seems that Alan’s questionable expressions of “friendship” may be the actual hollow, self-serving game. I don’t need to discredit Alan or EXODUS. He seems to do that perfectly well all by himself.
I just read this remarkable comment on BoxTurtleBulletin from Karen Keen — an EXODUS member who attended both conferences and who accepted the invitatation to have dinner with two organizers of the Survivor’s conference:
“As we munch on bok choy and shrimp, Scott, Sonia and I listen to stories and concerns regarding ex-gay ministry. Our goal is not to criticize or argue, but to take the concerns seriously and learn how ex-gay groups can improve their ministries.”
She talks of being “geuinely moved” by the stories of Ex-gay Survivors and of “loving these people”. She promises to take the concerns to Alan. To bad Alan decided to be terse and dismissive — instead of reaching out in love to those who may have been harmed by EXODUS. If he had decided to be pastoral and not play games, he too might have learned something.
I think every single former ex-gay at the conference who had a story to tell delivered statements about the ineffectiveness of Exodus as a ministry. Crimony, even the mere presence of 150-200 people at the conference made a statement about Exodus’ ineffectiveness as a ministry. If Chambers is so concerned about the publics perception of the effectiveness of Exodus, why doesn’t he keep statistics of who’s been “cured?” Maybe it’s because he’s admited he’s not sure he’s every really even MET a true ex-gay.
Hundreds, Thousands, or Hundreds of Thousands – which is it, Alan?
And why should we be asked to “struggle” with ssa’s when passion, romance, and love for the same sex come so naturally and easilly and without struggle?
Michael, perhaps you read that excerpt here at XGW or at Karen Keen’s blog? Box Turtle Bulletin simply printed a note suggesting that people visit Keen’s blog.
To their credit, BTB has provided a lot of new video lately.
I found their apologies hollow and self-serving. I merely played their game…
to show them who could REALLY be hollow and self serving! As the Good Book says, when thine enemy offendeth thou, playeth thou his game.
Emily, you hit it sister. I have said often that the struggle with homosexualit isn’t that of the gay person, but with the straight folks all around them.
But you know…in their minds there is no such thing as a happy gay person.
Or maybe mores the point, they don’t think there is such a thing as someone being happy to BE gay.
Either way, if Chambers and all the rest were right…there would be no disagreement and those ‘hundreds of thousands’ would show up and testify.
Even so, it’s not THEIR call to make.
Being straight isn’t always a picnic either. But they don’t tell you THAT part!
Hugs Emily
Regan:
Hugs to you too! If ever I needed a spiritual guardian, I’d definitely call you- “the earings are comin’ off!” lol (I remember you writing that in another comment). I get this feeling that when it comes to homophobia and heterosexist injustice, you are a force of nature to be reckoned with. Thanks, and keep it up!
I know that was Off Topic, but i really wanted to say it.
Chambers should not get so defensive. In being so he fails to realise that in the end, his own personal opinion of Exodus’ claim of effectiveness, could not be imposed upon tens of hundreds of thousands of human beings who are are SSAs all over the world.
His made his own points invalid he fails to demonstrate whose problem it was in the first place… All are his own problems! He earned some respect for me for his silent admission in regards to ex-gays, but he went down in my estimations with the statements he made! It is so crude, so disrespectful to express his “sadness” for Darlene Bogle’s decision to go back into homosexuality. Wha? Go back? He thinks homosexuality is a beer lounge?
Other statements that is causing my pretty hair to fall off:
They do not BELIEVE it was best for themselves. THEY KNOW it is best! And God IS blessing them.
What irony? They do not need to ask forgiveness from Exodus. They are aware of the truth that they are still same sex attracted and shared the wrong gospel so they apologized. The irony is Chambers is still thinking every homosexual is like him after all the damage Exodus has done to most homosexual folks!
I think by Chambers’ recent confession, he too is living a double life. At least the three stopped living that!
Forgiveness? Apologies. They do not need Alan’s forgiveness. And who does he think he is to offer that? Alan needs God’s forgiveness!
If my small outburst here upsets David Roberts, then I offer my sincere apologies. I am just so angry with this p**r blardy soul. I hope he, Exodus (AND Exodus Asia Pacific) MOVE ON soon. We LGTs in Asia do not need his brand of misinformation and mispreaching!
This about sums up Alan’s view of ex ex-gays. He considers this a “game” and we are simply not “real” to Alan.
If you’ve been promoting, albeit in good faith, a programme that you’ve now recognized as a con, and you’ve acknowledged your error and have apologised to those who have been harmed by your misguided participation in the programme, why on earth should you apologise also to those who are still promoting it?
Alan also has made a statement that Exodus didn’t cause harm on my blog. In response to my chalk talk blog.
I think I’ll send Mr. Chambers some cheese to go with the whine.
On vacation eh? Sounds a little testy to me.
Trouble in paradise?
YukiChoe, thank you for your courage.
I will stand as a Canadian, as our US friends stand and as you stand.
There are two organization listed at Exodus as affiliates.
https://www.solid-ground.ca/supgrporg.htm#life
Should these groups break any ethical, medical, legal boundaries, then may the full weight of Canadian Christians and the Canadian church, straight and gay be known. There has been enough harm.
We do not want Exodus International in Canada.
Bene D, your stance is remarkable by itself. And thanks for your encouragement. Really appreciated. : )
Alan can’t take those who leave the ex-gay ministries seriously otherwise he could lose out on his ex-gay career and go broke. The ex-gay ministries bring in a lot of dough for Alan Chambers.
Alan,
Move On? Are you kidding? Of course you want them to move on – no one at Exodus wants to believe that their organization can make mistakes or hurt people – you never do this, right?
Why is it that the only people who seem to be genuinely honest here are the Ex-Ex Gay ones?
I agree with Alan here:
“They chose to leave homosexuality and to pursue what they believe to be the best for themselves. God bless them. Move on.”
Oh wait, that’s not what he said?
I think it is interesting that Alan says he has been open to dialogue with me. I sent him a copy of the God and Gays movie last December, and called several times to see if he had viewed it. I was told by his secretary that he had received it, and would respond accordingly. This is July, and I’m still waiting!
Also, this was the first time in 14 years that I ever heard from him that he was hurt; offended or Angry at me for chosing to follow my heart! I believe the scripture has something to say that he had a responsibility to bring it to my attention, so I could apologize to him. I have no problem with saying I’m sorry to ANYONE that I have offended or wounded by my life, or my words. What concerns me more, is that Alan, as a spokesperson and represeentative for Exodus, and I might add, the Lord Jesus Christ, cannot admit that perhaps they do not have the full truth in the area of sexuality. I personally know dozens of former exodus leaders who have followed their hearts to embrace their sexuality and their spirituality, and all of heaven is rejoicing! If alan wants to talk, he knows my number.
No, I do not believe that he was candid — or rather, I do not believe he was honest.
Exodus and ministries like it harm people. I know a boy who was sent to one of the ex-gay camps by his parents. He is still gay, but he hates himself now. He has something that I can only call explosions of sexuality when what is within him bursts out — in ways that are not good for him instead of in nurturing and loving ways. then he attacks himself for what he admits he cannot silence or change — at one time he said it would change, but he now realizes that it won’t — and he seems to be becoming suicidal. This would never have happened if other people, desperate with their own self-hatred and loathing had not created a mechanism to harm gay men and boys.
The apology from the former leaders was honest, it addressed the victims. An apology to those who are inside the “ministry” perpetuating its lies and those of the cults that sponsor it would have been dishonest at best. These former leaders did them no harm — and actually gave them a final opportunity to be honest, and to leave the business of the destruction of others and self behind; going on to live in dignity with wholeness.
Regards,
Reyn
believienyou24@yahoo.com
https://www.rebuff.org
Nobody has said it’s easy for any gay to walk the straight and narrow path…whether it is for religious or personal morals or just simply for health safety reasons. While many would agreee that some gays are borne gay and gays having a wide spectrum of sexuality and tendencies, I feel it is no excuse to be promiscious and engage in unsafe casual sex. Me for one having accepted my own sexuality, tendencies and feelings, will not stray down the path of hedonism. Gays should view celibacy as the healthier choice to that and it is very possible to live a fruitful and fulfiling life without the sex. There is so much to life than that.
Whoa! I say: WHOA!
CT says:
Is there a middle ground here? Implied here: anything (ANYTHING?) other than celibacy is hedonism?
CT, you certainly are proud of the restraints you put on yourself. No sex? No intimacy? Not even snuggling in bed?
Yeah…There is so much to life other than sex…but life is much more wonderful with it.
I will not be pegged as a hedonistic, selfish whoremonger by anyone who sanctimoniously thinks I should not have sex…even casual sex…every once in a while.