With years of “therapy,” Exodus president Alan Chambers says, he has mostly conquered his own attraction to men. And he will no doubt emphasize his “heterosexuality” at Exodus’ annual conference in southern California at the end of this month. (A conference of survivors of ex-gay programs will be held nearby.)
But today’s Los Angeles Times reports that Chambers has “come to resent the term ‘ex-gay’: It’s too neat, implying a clean break with the past, when he still struggles at times with homosexual temptation. ‘By no means would we ever say change can be sudden or complete.'”
Reporter Stephanie Simon sees Chambers’ concession as a sign that “gay-rights activists and those who see homosexuality as a sinful disorder are starting to reach agreement on some practical points.” But while the Times article notes changes of attitude occurring elsewhere among religious conservatives, it fails to document such change at Exodus.
The Times says that “Chambers and other Exodus leaders talk deliberately about a possible biological basis for homosexuality.” But explicit quotations to this effect are in short supply — regrettable since, as the Times notes, the Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr. of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary recently wrote that “we should not be surprised” to find a genetic basis for sexual orientation.
Dr. Jack Drescher, a New York psychiatrist, and Michael Bussee, a co-founder of Exodus who now advocates for gay equality, both see signs of change afoot among religious conservatives. For example, as the Times reports, “Bussee put aside his protest agenda recently to endorse new guidelines to sexual identity therapy, co-written by two professors at conservative Christian colleges.” Bussee acknowledges — as I do — the “potential in therapy that does not promise change but instead offers patients help in managing their desires and modifying their behavior to match their religious values — even if that means a life of celibacy.”
But these guidelines were written by Warren Throckmorton of Grove City College and Mark Yarhouse of Regent University.
They were not written, nor promoted, by Exodus.
If Exodus has significantly changed its view on the biological roots of sexual orientation, or the effectiveness of reparative therapy, the LA Times article fails to document this change. In fact, it suggests the opposite.
The article briefly and indirectly conveys the failure of Exodus thus far to heed the Throckmorton/Yarhouse guidelines and the organization’s ongoing sponsorship of discredited “therapies” such as parent-bashing, shaming and sexual stereotyping:
Critics of Exodus note the group still sponsors speakers who attribute homosexuality to bad parenting and assert that gays and lesbians live short, unhappy lives.
The article also — eventually — points out that “though Chambers has disavowed the term ‘ex-gay,’ his group’s ads give the distinct impression that it’s possible to leave homosexuality completely behind.”
So what, really, has changed at Exodus?
The LA Times reports that professional psychologists aren’t waiting for change at Exodus:
The American Psychological Assn. set up a task force this spring to revise the group’s policy on sexual orientation therapy. The current policy is a decade old and fairly vague; it states that homosexuality is not a disorder and that therapists can’t make false claims about their treatments.
The new policy, due early next year, must help psychologists uphold two ethical principles as they work with patients unhappy about their sexuality: “Respect for the autonomy and dignity of the patient, and a duty to do no harm,” said Clinton Anderson, the association’s director for lesbian, gay and bisexual concerns. “It’s a balancing act.”
Given Exodus’ failure thus far to implement commonplace ethical principles and common-sense therapy guidelines for its ministries and counseling programs, anyone hoping for “change” at Exodus may yet have to wait a while.
Addendum: Exodus reacted to the Times article with a press statement this afternoon. It states, in part:
The world needs to see an accurate reflection of what ‘change’ really is. For too long, many have gotten the impression that transformation is an overnight process. In reality, it is an extremely difficult journey. For thousands of us, however, it has resulted in lives that have been transformed and characterized by the mercy and compassion of Jesus Christ. The definition of change will always be debated when it comes to this topic, but for those of us who are living remarkably different lives, we know what it is because we are living it.
Exodus will never change its postion. If it significantly changed its view on the biological roots of sexual orientation, or the effectiveness of reparative therapy, Alan Chambers and his minions would be out of a job. Like so many of the alleged ex-gays – e.g., Stephen Bennett – they all have made a career out of being “ex-gay.” For simple monetary reasons, Exodus cannot change its false claims. Moreover, such a change in position would alienate their supporters at Focus on the Family and similar Christianist groups.
I agree Michael!!!!
I am skeptical as well….really…I am….but….I’ve also learned never to say never. And I remain hopeful, in all things. If this weren’t my constant outlook and disposition I’d probably not be able to put two words or sentences together at this point which reflect any wisdom whatsoever regarding this issue. And, I hope (again) that’s not the case.
Number me as one of the skeptics 🙂
I’ve always wondered how difficult it would be for a straight guy or girl to lead a gay life?:
After years of therapy and brainwashing they found the same sex somewhat attractive and even led a gay life, but they always had that unnatural heterosexual urge to procreate. It’s a balancing act though, and one can never give up hope for an entirely homogenized society! Everybody should be the same because that’s God’s will…..right?
– I case you’re witless, that’s oozing with sarcasm!
Well… you’ve got a ministry which must abide by its religious dogma that is only now coming to terms with biological realities which are at odds with that dogma. Exodus has to walk a fine line, paying lip-service to that dogma or their constituent religion’s interpretation of that dogma. If they start going the route that being homosexual is a cause of the curse against Adam & Eve and start claiming its the same as a biological impulse towards criminal activities just to keep the dogma operative, then they will have gone off the deep end.
I agree with Tyler, you hit the nail on the head there. i went through a few years of exodus type therapy. It was usless, and almost led me to a breakdown. Since my blessed escape, I have been amazed that there are sections of society that demand gays change. How can they? if your straight reading this, can you force yourself to be gay? Nature or nurture, homosexuality was and always will be part of human existance. We should jail these exodus people!
On the Exodus linked “press statement” webpage, if you moved your cursor over “orientation,” you would see a whole big list of Exodus’ claim as to what the APA called “orientation.” Exodus, like the homophobic religious right, still tries to claim that “orientation” is a “sexual preference.”
Except for heterosexuality and homosexuality, everything in that list has to do with sexual disorders, aka paraphilias or fetishes.
Oh, one can have certain “preferences” in regard to one’s sexual orientation; but, one’s physiological sexual attractions do not always go with one’s sexual preferences.
Chambers does not like the term “ex-gay” because he still experiences same-gender sexual attractions. He admitted that he did on CNN a couple of months ago.
Exodus’ “definition” of gay is “homosexual.” I don’t consider a person in denial of his sexual orientation “gay” at all. I was not gay when I was in denial of my sexual orientation.
At least Exodus now are consistent in stating there are only thousands that had been transformed. It is a far cry from the previous bloated claims of hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, thousands of thousands being “changed”.
Silently admitting that “changes” that happen are on a minimal scale, maybe? Or perhaps it is high time they do something about their definitions?
YukiChoe: just wait until Chambers speaks to a Christian audience – he’ll switch the number to “hundreds of thousands” as though he never claimed otherwise.
But even if the number is “only” in the thousands – or the hundreds, for that matter – why can’t they find at least 200 people to speak out about their change? And I don’t mean “still struggling” I mean people at least at the point where Chambers is- experiencing only “minimal attraction.”
Doc Throck published a document called “I do exist” in which ex-gays talk about- well, the fact that they exist, that they’ve made the change, etc. However, I think the publication was pulled because one of the men who was featured came out of the closet.
Regardling Alan’s comment that ” Thousand of us have been transformed” — Alan recently told the Orange County Register that about 30% found change — and he was not necessarily talking about a change in orientation.
This 30%, he explained, had “set and kept life goals”, “preserved their marriages”, learned to “live heterosexually” or were able to “remain celibate.” He didn’t mention an actual change in orientation, just “living heterosexually”.
I too have my skepticism, but I think we are seeing real some changes in vocabulary and approach. In the age of the internet, it is becoming much harder for EXODUS to use “Christian-ese” buzzwords and make wild claims about change — because an increasingly educated audience knows better.
Lest we forget that Exodus is all about fundamental Christianity….
Chambers understands that getting the general populace to buy into the notion of a “God” who ‘says’ that long hair on men is a shame, lobster used to be an abomination, and oh, gay sex still is, is not like “flipping a switch.” He’s not going to go on CNN and say: ” Of course sin is biologically based, we inherited our sin nature from Adam and Eve.”
We wouldn’t have this mess to deal with if it had been Adam and Steve in the garden, which proves that gays do make better parents.
Doc Throck published a document called “I do exist” in which ex-gays talk about- well, the fact that they exist, that they’ve made the change, etc. However, I think the publication was pulled because one of the men who was featured came out of the closet.
Emily, it was a video. Warren pulled the video around the same time that one of the star witnesses Noe Gutierrez, explained that he did not believe that orientation did change. I don’t believe that Noe “came out”, per se, but simply expressed his opinion that the claims of the ex-gay ministries were untruthful.
FYI – Noe’s exact statement can be viewed at http://www.deepbluefusion.com. My statement about the video can be viewed at http://www.idoexist.com.
Just to clarify, the video I Do Exist is still being sold by some places that have stock left. If you run across one as I did the other day, don’t get confused thinking Throc is cranking more out 😉
Could somebody please give me some valuable info? I would like to know how many transgenders/transsexuals are “changed” as per claimed by ex-gay groups.
Hey, please do not leave us transsexuals out of our share of bananas! I mean, who knows; maybe it was Adam and Steve, then Steve transitioned to become Eve!
Hmmmmm…. just a thought running from what YukiChoe said… If Eve was made from Adam’s rib, then at least a part of her did have a sex change.
On a totally unrealted tangent (but I’ll keep in brief), my roommate postulates that the story of Adam’s Rib could be an allegory about X and Y chromosomes. That would, indeed, be a fascinating way to view that particular genesis story.
I can understand why many Christians with a same sex/Gay orientation want to avoid a Gay lifestyle. Being an openly Gay man and a Christian for years I can speak from experience. In my experience monogomy is rare indeed among Gay men. There are long term relationships, many of which last many years (even decades in some cases). However, usually the sex dies out completely between the partners in the relationship early on. Some partners get involved in a variety of sexual scenarios to keep something physical between them (three-somes, porn). However, if monogomous long term Gay relationships exist they are rare indeed. Why wouldn’t Gay Christians seek to avoid the grey morality of the Gay world? I am in it and hate it!
Gay partnerships are not the same as heterosexual marriage. Who is kidding who?
Not sure, but I know you aren’t fooling anyone. Drop the generalizations and slurs.
Ted,
The Barna Research Group did a study a few years back and “found divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups and for Atheists and Agnostics.”
Anyone who has been in a relationship knows it takes two to tango, meaning, you have a big say in the form and quality of any relationship you are in. Perhaps your problem is your beliefs and not your orientation?
Wow, Ted, I’m glad we don’t run in the same circles.
David, how many thousands of in-stock-but-discredited DVDs will the American Family Association sell before they run out of stock? And who is pocketing the earnings?
“Ted” claims to have chosen an unhappy and irresponsible lifestyle. Instead of halting his undesired actions and substituting desired actions — which is not at all difficult to do — he demands that those who act responsibly and feel happy should change their daily living patterns to confirm his misery and reinforce his lack of self-control and adult autonomy. How very strange.
Everything Ted said about gay relationships is also all too true of straight ones: (1) Monogomy is rare indeed among straight men, (2) There are long term relationships, but usually the sex dies out completely between the partners in the relationship early on.
(3) Some partners get involved in a variety of sexual scenarios to keep something physical between them (three-somes, porn), and (4) Considering all the “straight shack-ups”, swinging singles, trial marriages, divorces, one-night-stands and affairs, if truly monogomous long term straight relationships exist, they are rare indeed.”
We could also ask, “Why wouldn’t more straight Christians seek to avoid the grey morality of the straight world?” Come on, Ted, who’s fooling who?
Everybody’s sure ganging up on poor Ted. I for one cannot object to his basic observation, even though I don’t agree with his pessimistic tone.
I’m in my mid-50s, so many of my friends are in long term relationships–20, 25, 30 years. Most of these are strong relationships, but many (not all!) are much more open sexually than would be true for most heterosexual marriages. I know couples who openly have other relationships on the side; couples who won’t “fool around” individually, but pick up guys online for threesomes; couples who make exceptions when they’re on vacation; and other variations. I believe there was a Canadian study of gay male relationships a few years ago that found pretty much the same picture.
I have a lot of theories of my own on why this is so prevalent in gay relationships. I always come back to the fact that gay men of my generation did not form relationships around a strong model of monogamy and commitment. It will be interesting to see what happens with younger gay men, who are forming relationships with actual marriage as their model and goal.
But as one who was married for 30 years and saw a lot of heterosexual relationships up close, let me also say to Ted: Don’t kid yourself. Many heterosexual marriages struggle with the same issues–loss of sexual interest leading to sexual activity outside the relationship. It’s kept more hidden, because the expectation of fidelity is much higher. But from my perspective, the challenges of maintaining a relationship are pretty much the same whether you’re gay or straight.
Yuck!
You know the rules, reference please 😉
Ted –
The sex dies out of most straight relationships too, and I have to agree with Nick, many MANY married men and women seek sex outside of their marriages. Heck, I’m not proud of it, but back when I was promiscuous, I slept with a fair number of married men myself.
My point is, the religious right is trying to get people to idolize the institution of marriage. They don’t talk about the difficulties of marriage, its sacrifices and pains, or its general downsides – and they definitely don’t talk about the problem of infidelity.
Gay men have never had marriage to rally around, and I don’t know but would guess that there would be much more monogamy for those gay couples that can get married than for those who choose other sorts of commitments. Besides, I know a good number of gay couples now who choose monogamy, but monogamy is not the only choice – and shouldn’t have to be, for couples.
There are many groups who don’t see marriage and monogamy as synonymous – in our culture or in others.
According to Warren (who is welcome to comment on this) he is not actively selling them anymore and not making any more of them. The ones being sold were already purchased from him so I suppose the investment was made by the AFA in that example and they are recouping. Their online store said they have six left.
“You know the rules. Reference, please.”
I was actually hoping my mention of the Canadian (I think) study of gay relationships would jog someone else’s memory to identify the actual study. All I remember was reading about the study sometime in the last year.
However, a quick google did uncover one interesting review of studies done on monogamy in gay relationships, covering studies from 1984 to 2003. They are grouped as “Studies implying gay monogamy is statistically rate” and “Studies implying a large percentage of gay couples practice monogamy.”
I do not know the Harold Miller who put together the review, but you can find it at:
I managed to screw up my post above. To complete what I was saying:
You can find the review at:
https://members.aol.com/gaymatter/monog.htm
It is more than obvious to say that a gay or lesbian adult can choose to not act on their homosexual feelings. If adult clients of Exodus or Throckmorton make that choice, they can do that. So what? Alan Chambers has made that choice, he can do that, it’s his life. This declaration from Chambers and Throckmorton’s proposed guidelines are unremarkable.
I do worry that some of the folks who participate in these ex-gay programs are dealing with some other disorder that goes undiagnosed while these ex-gay practicioners focus on the client’s supposed homosexuality, but tough for me. Free adults are free to make right and wrong choices.
The real kicker here, it seems to me, is what will Throckmorton, Chambers and their peers say about Joe Nicolosi’s efforts to treat children and teens in an effort to prevent adult homosexuality. Nicolosi declared he was doing this in 1998, he authored a book on the topic, and, as far as I know, he continues this practice. There may be others who are doing the same kind of work. Now we’re not talking about adults making choices, but parents and practicioners enforcing a choice.
No science supports Nicolosi’s work, in fact, Ken Zucker’s work with children and teens dealing with gender identity disorder suggests that adult homosexuality is almost inevitably the consequence of childhood and teenage GID. Will Throckmorton, Chambers et al condemn those in their movement who experiment on children or will they remain silent? That’s the test. Do they believe in autonomy or not?
I doubt we will see such a condemnation. I see that among the handful of endorsers of Throckmorton’s guidelines is a senior officer from Focus on the Family, an organization that has promoted Nicolosi’s book and work and featured him at its Love Won Out conferences.
I worry about that as well. I hope Warren is reading this so he can give us his take on the matter. What should we do about kids who may be or probably are gay, who don’t want to go to therapy, but whose parents force them, or even entice them, to go?
NickC
Interesting.
In argument for monogamy: three studies and a survey all in the US
In argument against: one German study, one Dutch AIDS study, one series of interviews, and two opinions
Frankly, I just don’t give Marshall Kirk’s opinion in 1898 the same credibility as a study of nearly 100% of all persons entering marriage in Massachusetts.
Y’all gotta read this from Peter LaBarbera:
https://americansfortruth.com/news/the-question-is-not-can-gays-change-but-how-many-already-have.html#more-1345
Stephen Bennett put his two cents in as well.
Peter LaBarbera is a kook! He, of course, isn’t espousing anything new. He talks about love and then turns around and practices anything but. He talks about how the gay community spreads lies, and then twists truth to fit his own agenda. He doesn’t acknowledge that there are practicing Christians who understand the Bible differently than he does. Its really sad to see just how hypocritical so many anti-gay folks really are. But it is definitely a boon to the gay community.
I personally think Exodus is nothing more than a bunch of crap. I remember back to 1976-77 when Michael Bussee and another Guy started the group at Melodyland. They came to a christian ministry in Ventura to share the propaganda on making gay people straight. I grew up in the ministry they visited and my life as a gay man became hell after their visit. As an adult and many years of trying to be “straight” I finally decided that God loves me as a gay man. PERIOD. But in the years of the struggle to come to terms with my faith and sexuality I tried drugs, and was even put in a mental hospital for a suicide attempt. I am now in my early 50’s, been in a LTR for 14 years and my family will still have NOTHING to do with me and my “sinful” lifestyle.. As far as I am concerned EXODUS destroys the lives of those it touches and adds fuel to the alreay large bigoted flame within the church. I have over the years, wondered whatever happened to Michael Bussee and others. I hoped for the day to see him face to face so I could tell him how much harm he and his Exodus group caused to my life and my family. westseattlej@gmail.com
Jamison Harrigan said:
This is your lucky day. Look closely and you will find he is one of those apologizing. He also comments here regularly, so Jamison, meet Michael; Michael, meet Jamison.
He’s at the BXG conference right now (see link above) but might pop in. I hope that helps.
Jamison,
Here’s a part of Michael’s comments yesterday:
I think he means you. And if you ever meet Michael personally, I am certain that he would express to you his sincere regret. Michael has made a large part of his life an effort to heal and repair the harm done before he came to be aware of the futility of his ex-gay efforts.