A few days ago, we reported on radio spots released by Exodus to promote their upcoming Freedom Conference in Irvine, California. These spots implied that one could expect “sudden, radical, compete change” in same-gender attraction. In response, a statement has been placed on the webpage associated with the spots:
Exodus International exists to mobilize the body of Christ to minister grace and truth to a world impacted by homosexuality. As such, we are calling upon the evangelical church to undergo a sudden, radical and complete change in the way it has dealt with the issue of homosexuality in the past.
As former homosexuals, we know that the process of transformation is often a long, difficult journey towards healing and holiness. If the body of Christ will embrace and demonstrate the compassionate truth and grace of Jesus Christ—then we will witness a true revolution in our generation.
Also, Exodus president Alan Chambers has issued this exclusive statement for release through XGW:
Having grown up in church I understand and fluently speak Christianese. The culture at large doesn’t always understand the way we speak. This is something that we are aware of at Exodus and are making a more concerted effort to change. I struggle to find words that explain “healing” and “change” and “transformation”. Those are applicable to my life and story. However, I do recognize that they can and do unintentionally mislead people.
Our public service announcement highlighting our annual conference is being played on one Christian radio station in California. This PSA references our conference theme, Revolution, and its definition: sudden, complete and radical. We want to emphasize that we are calling for such change within the
evangelical church and the way it has typically dealt with the issue of homosexuality. By no means is it our belief that change from the complexity of issues surrounding homosexuality is often sudden or complete.In an effort to clarify our message, we have produced a statement that appears on our website and has been sent to the station running the ads.
Messaging is important as is honesty. Our intention with this ad was simply to call the church to sudden, radical and complete change regarding how we have traditionally dealt with the issue of homosexuality.
I am truly sorry for any confusion this caused.
We at XGW appreciate what we believe is a sincere statement of remorse from Mr. Chambers, but we must also reiterate our concerns that these audio clips are clearly deceptive, even if the message they convey was unintended. At the very least, we must question why there is not more accountability in an organization such as Exodus. These should never have made it out of their offices.
This clearly is a situation where we need caveat emptor but it really should have been caveat venditor (seller beware).
The sneaky way some car dealers get people into their car dealership with trick catch-phrases and ‘attention getters’ is fine for commercial entities where caveat emptor (buyer beware) is considered the norm for buying a car. Telling us to check on the internet to read a clarification (or fine print) is not how I think we should be dealing with such an important issue as homosexuality. Though I have not heard these particular radio ads, I was wondering why a religious entity would stoop to the advertising ethics of car dealers? Was that not the same modus operandi with the billboards in Arizona?
It makes me wonder if Mr. Chambers or someone at Exodus once owned a tacky plaid sports coat.
Could somebody explain to me, what the HELL he means by ‘a world impacted by homosexuality?’
When it’s something gay folks want and need, I’ve heard them referred to as a ‘tiny, insignificant minority.’ Unworthy of making any profound changes to marriage and adoption, the Boy Scouts…and so on.
But when it’s something that straight people know there may be some support for gay people…they suddenly it’s the big bad conspiracy of ‘the homosexual agenda’, and radical homosexual militants that can influence things so much, that any and all institutions will be shattered and no moral standards need remain.
That’s not a rational dichotomy. That’s the only dichotomy and illogic that stems from bigotry.
Homosexuals LIVE in the entire world. Homosexuality is indigenous to all human life and cultures. Homosexuality isn’t influenced by DNA different from heterosexual DNA.
DUH…yes, the world is impacted by homosexuality.
But he says that in such a loaded way, he makes it sound like an atom bomb, type of negative reality.
Instead of a fact of life.
If anything, the world is negatively impacted by HETEROSEXUALITY….and let me count the nearly 7 billion ways….
Alan,
After sort of “slamming” you the other day on the bullying statement, let me take this opportunity to personally say “thank you” for this one. I do believe you are sincere and I pray that the revolutionary change in the way certain factions of the “church” respond to homosexuality will be not only truly revolutionary but swift in coming.
Regan, I share your frustration but ease up on the language please.
Alan,
I offer an unconditional “thank you”.
I wish you much luck in your efforts to find language that speaks honestly both to the church and the public sphere.
Thanks from me too, Alan. You know that I came unglued when I heard the radio spots — and I appreciate and accept your apology. Clarity of message is ivery important. John Boswell pointed out once that “Words are essential to christianity” since that is how we communicate the good news of Christ. Boswell also noted that “great difficulty has been cause within the Christian tradition by inattention to words and their precise meanings.”
Words like “ex-gay” and “former homosexual” may have profound personal significance to those who use them — but they can be confusing and sometimes even intentionally misleading. You have mentioned that you want to “do away with it (the term “ex-gay”) entirely and see to it that it is never used again. You say that it is “more negative than anything” and “does not clearly reflect what the change process is all about“. You know that I agree.
So, I have to say that I am scratching my head at the comfort you seem to have with the term “former homosexual”. It seems you have been using it a lot lately. With all due respect, how is that different from “ex-gay”? Don’t they imply the same thing?
Joe Dallas of EXODUS once explained to a radio host that “ex-gay did not necessarily mean former homosexual” — but that it was just a “convenient way of saying a Christian with homosexual tendnencies who would rather not have those tendencies.” He explained that it “just rolled off the tongue a little easier.” In my experience, these “easy-on-the-tongue” Chistianese phrases have done more that anything else to contribute to the perception (right or wrong) that EXODUS is lying — or at least reluctant to tell the “truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.”
I know it is too much to ask for a definition since words can have very personal meanings — so I wonder if you might, instead, describe what you mean by this term. On face value, it seems as though you are substituting one vexing and provocative term (“ex-gay”) for one that is equally confusing and potentially misleading.
Michael, I disagree. They do not say the same thing.
“Ex-gay” says I once was gay and am no more. This could reasonably mean “I once was part of the gay community” or “I once identified with being gay”. Yes it is initially confusing but the meaning can at least be explained.
“former homosexual” has a clinical sound because the word homosexual is used clinically in this country. It means same-sex attracted whether joyously (Barney Frank), clandestinely (Roy Cohn), repressedly (Nicola Tesla, probably), or ickily (Mark Foley).
To say “former homosexual” is to say that one no longer is same-sex attracted. That term is blatantly dishonest if used by the vast majority of ex-gays. I don’t think it is accidental.
Basically – and I want to be clear that I am being very exact when I say this – any time that the term “former homosexual” is used by Alan to refer to someone that he knows to be still same-sex attracted, he is being deliberately deceptive. That is not a characteristic of godliness. God is not the father of lies.
And using Christianese to say that those who have “walked out of that lifestyle” or “have been delivered from that life” are “former” while talking to the media is neither honest nor benign.
I wonder if they’ve ever considered something like “struggling heterosexual”. That seems to more aptly describe what it truly is. Or maybe…”straight identified”….something along those lines. Is that crazy talk? At least that puts the emphasis back on the orientation they are seeking but qualifies it with some of the language they are accustomed to using.
For the record, here is the text of the radio spot:
The structure of this message gives no indication that the church is the target. As for Mr. Chambers’ explanation, I think it makes matters worse by inferring that Exodus is somehow incapable of clear communication. As someone raised in the evangelical church, I know the lingo and frankly do not understand why Exodus cannot cast Christian ideas into understandable terms. From my point of view, Exodus should withdraw the spots altogether. Then the organization should take some serious time to review the terminology it uses. Exodus’ credibility is not served by these continuing ‘I’m sorry you didn’t understand what I meant’ episodes.
Well….the thing is PW, most of the people who hear that ad don’t read sites like this and won’t ever see the apology and certainly not this discussion about it. Alan said it only ran on that one Christian station and he sent that message specifically to XGW from what I understand.
The people listening on that station, for the most part, will take it to mean what they want to hear out of it which is that their loved ones can be changed miraculously from gay to straight. While I do appreciate the gesture and the sincerity of the apology here at XGW, the bottom line is that they keep doing that same sort of thing over and over again. Propogating the misinformation through Christianese to those itching ears, then aplogizing to people like us who won’t even go to the conference in the first place.
The pattern is obvious but I’ve not the time or energy to substantiate with links so if someone wants to call me on it I’ll just go ahead and say it’s my opinion.
Maybe two glasses of a good Cabernet have given me unusual clarity, but am I the only one who sees this as just plain basic spin, and not all that well executed?
Obvious is obvious, good people.
Jay, I honestly don’t get that impression. The apology seems genuine to me. And I’ve not noticed two glasses of wine ever bringing clarity, but only the illusion thereof 😉
I’m curious, how might you have written the apology in a way that would satisfy you about it’s sincerity? Is our mark too high sometimes?
I think that the best way to apologize for a blatantly misleading advertisement is to withdraw the advertisement and then specifically apologize to attendees at the upcoming conference if they got the impression that Exodus promised to miraculously cure them or their loved one of their homosexuality.
Alan never seems to say the same thing twice, and on the rare occasions when he does say the same thing twice, he will offer two (or more ) different explanations for what he meant. I have great difficulty believing anything that he says or believing that he is being sincere in anything that he says. One area in which Alan seems to actually demonstrate some skill is projecting sincerity, even when we know that he is not teling the truth.
Alan is going to have to put a lot of effort into being honest and consistent. If he were to actually develop a track record of being honest, then I might actually consider believing something that he said. Until he can really demonstrate that he has truely turned over a new leaf, I will have to remain skeptical about everything that comes from him.
If this transcript is accurate, how can there be any doubt that the “sudden, radical, complete change” referred to change of orientation? The context couldn’t be clearer.
Attention, David Robert: there is NOTHING wrong with Regan DuCasse’s ‘language’, thank you very much. Also, I find it somewhat appalling that you “appreciate what we believe is a sincere statement of remorse from Mr. Chambers”. Sincere people do not spend their lives oppressing other people.
Once again, gay people need to take a historical lesson from the Black communuty. They did not coddle up to, or appreciate the KKK. They took a stand and didn’t deviate from it. And they certainly didn’t keep giving free passes to the people who wanted to eliminate them. Unlike you. Frankly, your organization needs to knock off the molly-coddling of, and the chuminess with these people.
They are the enemy. They speak with smiles as they state they love us, but of course that’s not true. Love doesn’t hurt, and they cause a lot of pain and anguish. They quote nonsense from the bible with a smile on their lips, but in their hearts, they want our anilhation.
And not just content to mislead gays and straights, many actively and successfully oppose laws and legislation that would provide civil rights protections and equal treatment in your country.
Fortunately, I live in Canada where gay people have full rights, including the right to marry, the right to adopt, and survivor’s pension rights.
I do have a half brother who lives in Florida, and is a lawyer, but also happens to be a devout Southern Baptist minister. After a few efforts by him to let me know there was a ‘cure’ and that he just wanted me give him the opportunity to explain it to me and that I really need to give it a chance, this Black Gay Woman told him in no uncertain terms that if he wanted a relationship with me, he was NOT to get on this ridiculous topic again. I did not mince words and I did not give quarter, and guess what? He hasn’t brought it up in years.
Time to stop the ‘ass-kissing’, David. And get a new dictionary. These ‘sincere’ people are haters, not lovers. And they’re certainly not good christians. There is no need to ‘appreciate’ their ‘sincerity’. They want to, and actually do, wreck the lives of people. You can ‘appreciate’ them being ‘sincere’ the day they stop their evilness.
Also, try not to be so gullible. Those spots happened just as they planned, and this ‘concern’ he is expressing is also part of the plan. It’s called PR, as in get your message out there knowing how objectionable it is, and then ‘apologize’ for it. It’s a very clever strategy, because like the old adage says: “you can’t unring a bell”. The ads AND the ‘apology’/clarification were all part of the same deliberate plan.
It sure makes you wonder sometimes, doesn’t it? Why does EXODUS do this sort of thing so often? I don’t know… I have to admit that sometimes it’s tempting to believe, (like Tari) that “The ads AND the ‘apology’/clarification were all part of the same deliberate plan.”
Frankly, I don’t think EXODUS is is now (or has ever been) that clever or that organized. No. I think this was just another in an alarmingly frequent string of really dumb PR mistakes. Or, as the old saying goes: “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
In any event, EXODUS may have done us all a favor of sorts. EXODUS has now made it clear, that whatever terms like “ex-gay”and “former homosexual” may mean to those who use them, the “change process” is anything but “sudden, radical or complete”.
Chambers rolls up a day late and a dollar short.
I have of late been spending some time on the TownHall blog.
The most frequent posters INSIST, in your face INSIST…that being gay always and ever was a choice.
And it is that judgement from which all decisions concerning equal rights and other important issues flow.
And after this insistence, the threads become one or all of these three basic things:
a sermon
a screed on physiological complimentariness
an assertion that anything that happens, gay people have it coming, because it’s THEIR CHOICE.
There is absolutely nothing a gay person or their supporters can say about choosing that will move them.
There is no evidence that will.
And this is of course, the effect that Exodus wants.
Without the most basic respect for the most empirically proven component…there ISN’T anymore that can be said. Making civil discourse impossible, let alone civilly equal standards in the law.
Creating a serious complication with immeasurably damaging consequences.
There is more negative results with the work that Exodus does, than positive.
And if their work were solidly in the realm it should be, these would not be the results.
There would be a commonly agreed on consensus from BOTH sides of the issue.
Exodus extends the interests of heterosexuals, and there IS no choice for a young person to avoid it.
All one has to do is look at the youth outreach and trumpeting of their agenda for youth on the website.
Hedging their influence.
I think fomenting one of the biggest lies possible against a class of people and exploiting their most vulnerable period (when they are young or emotionally exhausted or under parental power), says something very important.
“How many fortunes have been created by taking normal conditions, redefining them as abherrant and then selling the solutions?”-
Meghan Daum
And you know what? She wasn’t talking about homosexuality.
Hi Tari!
A man we frequently talk about here and who contributes a post now and then is Dr. Warren Throckmorton.
He’s never had any respect for me, or the questions I asked him five years ago. Before I ever heard of XGW.
After hearing a terrible story regarding a 15 year old boy’s suicide after anti gay bullying…I wrote to him.
He told me I’d get no where with my tone not being more positive.
That did it for me….
I reminded him it’s only NOW that I’ve lost patience after so many years trying to reach out and getting nothing but terseness.
And that the civil rights advocates didn’t tone anything down or back off.
I don’t get the impression from him that he EVER had to deal with any real stand up fighting.
When gay CHILDREN die violent deaths…this guy wants to scold me on not being more positive about how I respond to that?!
Girl….he made me SO MAD when he said that!
One of our darling contributors here, Autumn Sandeen, has detected a serious rise in my blood pressure, and bless her….has called to check on my welfare.
We will take care of each other in a fashion, Tari.
There are so many gay teens who have placed their trust in me, that there is only one place for me to go.
With THEM.
And I WILL turn on Alan Chambers and anybody else like him in a heartbeat for the sake of those kids.
The kids call me ‘mama bear.
I warned Throckmorton, and Chamber better know it too…I eat them first!
Be well Tari, I support you all the way.
Tari,
I choose to respectfully and fervently disagree with you. In this one fell swoop of a paragraph you have managed to state the very views and tactics that have been used by ‘them” in the past. And, your answer is for us to continue that cycle thus stopping all dialogue? Hmmm. I can’t begin to tell you how offensive your words about David are to me. That’s the most ridiculous statement I’ve ever heard. I know it’s ridiculous because I KNOW David and he’s about as far removed from that description as one can get. The difference is that he is a Godly man. He’s got the courage it takes to exercise the gifts of the spirit in the most difficult of circumstances.
You also allude to those of us who are victims. Those whose lives have been “wrecked” by these individuals. There probably are those who would blame their “victimhood” on Alan directly. However, you can’t possibly look at the stories of those like myself (still reeling from the wreckage as i type), Christine Bakke, Peterson Toscano, and many others and believe that we live as “victims” to anyone. As horrific as it’s been, each one of us will tell you that, in many ways, we’re better for it. I’m not advocating going through this mess, but I’m not going to sit here and blame Exodus and Alan for it either.
I hope to be part of the solution, and so does David and everyone else here at XGW. We apparently have a different approach than you would take. So be it. It’s just basically rude to come over here and slam us, and particularly David, in the way that you just did.
Whenever someone starts going on about ‘godly’ people, the alert goes up. There are a lot of ‘godly’ people who are anything but, most often people who say they are. ‘Godly’ people don’t have to tell anyone that they are ‘godly’.
And too bad if you think that I am rude. And I don’t really care if you’re feeling all offended. Personally, I think you starting out with you intended to disagree with me respectfully was a lie. Are my feelings all hurt. Of course not because I’m not that petty.
You also need a lesson in reading comprehension. You’re making assumptions and attributing things to me that I didn’t say. What I am saying is for people not to be so gullible. The ads were deliberate, and the ‘apology’ was also deliberate. It’s an orchestrated campaign of hatred. And some of you guys are giving them free reign to continue by falling for it.
If that guy was really sorry about being an evil s.o.b., he’d not still be out there doing the stuff he is doing. Not that he is entirely alone in his misdeeds. Exodus and the like wouldn’t be able to get a handle on people who didn’t hate themselves for being gay. That’s called internalized homophobia, by the way. Sounds like you’ve got some going on, still.
I’m not saying that being gay is easy, because it’s not, and in some places, it’s down right dangerous. There are countries where gay haters don’t just run their mouths, they actually beat, rape and hang gay people.
SHOUT OUT TO REGAN. Stay strong. Don’t let them shut you up.
Tari,
Thanks for your reply. Sounds like we just disagree on a bunch of stuff. But please don’t think David would call himself “godly”, ok? I called him that, but it’s not something he is likely to say about himself.
I really was attempting to be respectful, and I’m glad that even though you don’t think I was respectful, you’re still not offended.
I’ll read it all again. As a teacher of reading comprehension it’s certainly something I need to work on myself.
I’d also agree that I may indeed still carry come internalized homophobia, and it’s something I continue to work at eliminating. However, it’s not because I hate myself for being gay because I’m not gay. I’m not sure, but it seemed like maybe you were thinking I was. Could be my lack of comprehension at work again. But, either way, I’m not and I’m not pretending to be either. I really only understand any of it from a more compassionate view point but certainly not as much as I would if I were actually gay myself.
It sounds like we just have a fundamental difference in our approach to the situation. I was mostly just taking up for my friend, who, I maintain, is a Godly man.
It’s sad, because there are so many who would call him evil with great conviction just as you call Alan evil with great conviction. Again, a difference of perspective.
I appreciate your willingness to dialouge about it. Oh…and I did click over to your blog and I love the artwork in your header. Cute quote as well. 😉
I read again and again the conversations here, and I see Chambers having a hard time keeping things neutral. Give the man a break, he is already torn between staying firm to his beliefs, and respecting the other side of the fence at the same time.
What he sees as true information, is for us misinformation. But in the end, it is his conviction. Instead of attacking him for his beliefs, why not just continue our mission to educate people with the real truth instead.
Whatever statements he makes, I dare anyone to point out one that could possibly cause someone homophobic to be violent against us. He is thus far, harmless. Homophobia stems from the misconception and inacceptance of the unknown. Nothing to do with church bias.
Please let me add. I am only talking about Chambers. I see nothing he has done that would trully wound us. His peers in Exodus however, is out of the equation. I hope Chambers has the managerial toughness to deal with them.
YukiChoe,
I am conflicted about Alan – because I think there are (at least) two Alans. There’s the one who wants to be truthful and accurate and not actually do damage to others’ lives and then there’s the Alan who is a politician and a deceiver and will say or do anything to advance his goals.
I just try to commend the human Alan and condemn the political animal Alan. Sadly, I suspect most of the commending and condemning he receives in his life goes the other way. And I suspect my input is not regarded nearly as that of the anti-gay politico/religious activists he spends his time with.
I can only hope the Holy Spirit works from time to time to remind him that God demands honesty, grace, compassion, and loving ones neighbor as ones self (to get all religious on you).
Tari,
you need not worry about Regan. She can hold her own 🙂
I would just caution you to remember that most people aren’t nearly as evil as their enemies would make them out to be. And frequently conspiricies are nothing more that the substance of fear.
While it is possible that Alan said “let me run bizarre and untruthful radio ads and then I’ll run a disclaimer at XGW”, I don’t think that is something that can be presumed to be true. And I don’t think it is naive to be somewhat reluctant to accept it as given fact.
But, nonetheless, it is good to see your passion.
I work in radio. Let’s be clear about some things.
The ad is always played to the client for their approval before it airs.
If the ad’s copywriter misconstrued something that was given them into the sponsor’s brief from the advertising salesman, then whoever heard the finished ad at Exodus and/or the ad salesman would have picked it up and requested it be re-written and re-recorded.
For example, this happens a lot when the voiceover talent mispronounces a name while recording the ad.
I’ve heard the Exodus ads ..and a copywriter cannot make a mistake of that magnitude..and it not be picked up before it’s recorded..let alone before it airs.
There is no other way to interpret the ad…other than it’s promising a sudden and complete change for a homosexual…
Alan Chambers is lying.
In all fairness, I don’t think Alan actually heard those spots before they were released. That points to some serious problems of management, but it doesn’t mean he is lying.
I would agree with David in the sense that even if he knows of the spots’ contents before it was released, it would just be the measure of what Chamber’s personal self-beliefs, or what Exoduses internal valuations are. A statement of belief cannot be equated to a statement of deception.
Being a transgender, I would have every reason to be angry with the way Exodus views the community. From downright ridiculous redefinition of the word transgender/transsexual, lumping sexual identity with sexual orientation, and other information atrocities. The persistant thought of Exodus that we are ‘gender confused’ just shows how much they are confused with people like us.
The only research they have is just a few verses of the Bible that states only ‘male’ and ‘female’, totally overlooking the facts of sciences. But it is in the end based on the very fabric of the faith itself. And that would mean more and more deviations from the fundamentals of reality and sciences by them, as proven here in this amazing website. Which is why I see no point in being upset.
We have come to understand that for Christian groups to deny what they know of the Bible, including homosexuals and transgenders; it would be to break the very essence of of the faith they find their comfort in. If they feel safe in their shell and even drawing politics to protect it, let them be. With more issues resolved by the absolute truth of humanity itself, such as the shape of the earth, slavery, divorces; it is just a matter of not if, but when we would get our toast to be who we are.
One truth is we gays, lesbians and transgenders exist. No matter what they claim. Very soon these kind of announcements would be cast into the oblivion of history. But I do hope, when the sun sets down on Exodus, NARTH and other such groups; Chambers himself would finally get to ponder the better things in life he could have done to make this world a better place for everyone.
Pam and David Roberts, as you know…I do have the utmost of respect for you and this blogsite.
I think you might have noticed Throckmorton’s and Chambers treatment of me, and in a way-it’s different from how they address other people.
Please understand, I contacted Dr. T years ago….and HE was rude, terse and at no time acknowleged the questions I had for him.
They were simply questions, there was no tone in them that could even be construed as simple and basic.
What you are witnessing now, from me…IS having been fed up.
But Chamber and Throckmorton’s behavior is something that occurs throughout most discussions ABOUT gay people without gay people participating in the discussion.
And that is, judging gay people from their REACTIONS to the way they are treated, rather than saying anything about the way gay people are treated to begin with.
In this, I have received this same judgement.
Person A, creates situations, language and other incidents that complicate the life of Person B….when Person B is saying ‘stop, you’re hurting me, I can’t have this happen or please don’t’, Person A then responds by saying that Person B is intolerant, too loud or has no right or reason to challenge such treatment or the authority of Person A.
Person A, could also consider themselves a qualified agent to deal with Person B, because they once WERE Person B. But insteand, capitulated to Person A, and thinks Person B should too….just to keep the peace and not rock Person A’s feelings.
However, I think this just shows that Person A is a fragile little thing and can’t take their own heat or stand up against what’s tough and difficult to challenge or defeat. They hide behind the skirts of who has the power.
In so many ways…it’s Uriah Heep creepy and obsequious.
I’m only human, and I get fed up with this kind of mindf***king behavior from Person A.
It’s a baited trap…I know. The use of Person B’s anger and upset and discomfiture is like another weapon.
But the degrees of danger….are not static and are not gentle.
Michael Bussee nearly got killed, and his friend DID die violently.
Young, young gay adolescents ARE in danger of violent death from homicide…or suicide.
How CAN one be gentle towards the very people you KNOW are part of the problem?!
And won’t even consider the middle ground there is so that all of this can be prevented?!
Seriously….I would just love to get my hands around their throats and shake them until their teeth fall out.
My mental movies have me doing that very thing, and that’s all I can satisfy myself with.
I gave ample warning….I am NOBODY’S wuss. I don’t have a dog in this…but I”m hella off in it anyway.
What does that say?
It’s my salute to General Principle.
It might make us cringe when someone is over making nice. But it’s more than understandable.
Fair?
Oops, I meant to say might questions initially at no time could have been construed at out of bounds or rude.
They were simple and basic.
Regan, I know how you feel and understand your frustrations. But please note that they are merely speaking from their own untrained minds.
Hate the sin, but love the sinner. Chambers just chooses to close himself in the sanctuary of four walls for comfort, and speaking out on a microphone from way in there. But still I do not see any serious harm done by him.
I believe Chambers is doing his best to stay neutral. From Bussee’s comments on how he tried to get the poor blardy fella to release the anti-hate statement, and Chambers’ response to it; I think Chambers means well and is trying his best to be on the grey side of the black and white for once. Not many from their group would be courageous enough to do so. I do not know about Warren Throckmorton though. Will read more about him.
Off topic but… May I express that I am pleased to have found this site. I wish I am in the States there with all of you. There is so much to learn from you guys. Alas, I am miles and miles away in a small country south east of Asia, kinda trying to host a mini revival for Christian LGBTs here. But I am day by day educated and edified by the information given in this site. My sincere thanks….
Regan said:
Regan, I’m not going to get into your personal exchanges with Warren or Alan. My concern and my responsibility is what happens on this site. The feelings you describe above come through loud and clear in your emotional attacks when either of them come here to comment. This is not helpful as it denies others a chance to ask reasonable questions and gain from the exchange.
I’ve cut you an enormous amount of slack on this issue because I know you are passionate, but I hope you will understand that it has to stop. Ask all the germane, civil questions you want, but doing so while maintaining a mental image of yourself with your hands around their throats is violent and it shows. I have to believe you don’t want that either.
YukiChoe said:
I’m sure all those who take part at XGW appreciate your kind words, and I would like to thank you for your participation here as well. Please stick around 😉
The advertisements are dishonest and misleading, but this dishonesty comes directly from the core of Exodus. Until the mission of Exodus changes, it will always be dishonest, and it’s leaders will constantly be telling lies and then trying to explain themselves afterward.
Exodus needs to acknowledge that none of these folks (particulary poster boys Alan Chambers and Randy Thomas) have changed their sexual orientations. The best that they can offer is advice and support in how to live a life trying to avoid acting on their homosexual feelings. This would be the only honest message that they could give and it would ultimately boil down to encouraging celibacy for most.
Dumping their political allegiance to James Dobson would also remove the need to tell further lies to support the political ambitions of Focus on the Family.
Exodus after all considers itself a religious group, and one of the first lessons that parents or religious organizations should be teaching is honesty. I don’t see how Exodus can ever really thrive and grow out in the open when it is founded on and sustained by its own inherent dishonesty.
Lighten up David….
I said it was a part of my imagination. The serious and unfortunate reality is, I don’t have to use my imagination when it comes to the crime scenes or photos of them I’ve processed that involved gay or trans victims.
That’s the sort of thing that keeps me at whatever it’s going to take. I push myself. I already said…this ain’t my dog.
I was being honest about my feelings.
I said I was only human. That’s not exactly a slam or threat to Throckmorton or Chambers, per se…
but it sure is how I feel sometimes with OTHER people I’ve been confronted with and THEIR violent attitudes towards very innocent and vulnerable gay kids.
And the way whoever is partly or fully responsible HIDES.
THEY don’t apologize, let alone indulge in being honest about what they say that makes such terrible things happen.
That’s not me necessarily stooping to their level either.
The civil, cogent, reasonable approach doesn’t always work.
And I admit that I get angry, angry…ANGRY at the abuse.
And anyone that hasn’t ever once felt the same way….would you believe they never have?
I at least thought that admitting my feelings was fair. It happens.
And up to now, I have been the one that cut Chambers and Throckmorton the slack.
Fortunately, I have other resources for venting and dealing with everything. Like writing articles, stage plays and having a talkradio forum.
It’s the way I’d feel about a light skinned black, passing for white…who supported and wanted blacks to be kept in the Jim Crow system, and at the same time wrote articles and spread information that blacks were the sexually irresponsible, promiscuous and dangerously sexually aggressive gorillas that white people thought they were.
And all the while saying that they didn’t condone the lynchings, and they were out there doing God’s work and the Scripturally accepted practice of doing that to people with the mark of Ham.
That’s what some ex gays are like to me….and that’s what they DO.
I’ve had my share of abuse directed at me for taking a stand. Cutting me some slack…for occasionally having a temper…would be only fair.
BTW… They NEVER have answered my questions, David.
So….I pretty much had to do things on my own, and T and AC, don’t seem to like the conclusions I drew for myself without them.
I understand that you want their participation. But they pretend like I’m not here anyway…until something like that comes out.
Guess I have wondered…is this thing on?
Regan, I can understand becoming overwhelmed with anger and frustration at times, and yes I also get angry when dealing daily with some of the perverted extremes such as LaBarbera or Cameron, et al. My life has been profoundly affected by such hatred, and my body assaulted and scared during an attack which was motivated by both racial prejudice and homophobia. I have as much right as anyone to land on these people with everything I have.
But there is a distinct difference in attitude from Throckmorton and even Alan when they visit here compared to those others. If there is the least bit of honesty and willingness to listen, we owe all the aforementioned victims, as well as those who come here to debate, a civil, reasonable and safe space in which to interact and possibly gain some accountability and understanding. XGW is a watchdog, but we can’t allow ourselves to become shrill and abusive.
I called attention to your actions because, as far as I can tell, each and every time one of them comes here you take that opportunity to attack and you don’t let up. I can either sit back while you continue to do that, or I can mention it as I have done today and rely on your reason and willingness to make a change. Otherwise they will simply tune us out and we will have our anger and our frustration, but little else. You have a great deal of empathy and compassion, and I hope you will understand and continue to help us with these goals.
Does anyone here question that Exodus is a fundamental Christian organization (I’m fairly familiar, I graduated from one of their programs…twice)? The ad they ran is par for the course:
“Revolution: a sudden, radical, complete change. Through Christ freedom is possible for those who struggle with same-gender attraction.”
Does anyone here doubt that they believe this stuff? They can support it with scripture, after all, so it must be true. They are just doing what fundamental Christians do. They are speaking in “Christ[‘s]” name, which means (for the uninitiated) to speak in Christ’s stead. I, for one, prefer to see them use the words of their actual belief rather than try to flavor their recipe for the infidels consumption. That would be deceptive.
It’s fine with me if they want to put ‘Gods’ seal of approval on their belief. But, for this infidel, they’re going to have to demonstrate that they really do speak for Christ. The bible, that they claim to be the literal word of God and from which they get their notions about homosexuality, provides us all with a test to determine their veracity. It seems only fair to me that , before they “minister,” they demonstrate that they are true followers of Christ using the same standard they wish to use for homosexuals (i.e., the bible).
Mark 16:17,18
“And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not harm them at all; they will place their hands on sick people and they will get well.”
So, here’s my simple proposal. Before they ask anyone to take their cure for homosexuality, let them each drink deadly poison first as a “sign” that they do indeed follow Christ’s lead. That’s fair, isn’t it?
On the Montel Williams Show several months ago, Montel proved that Alan Chambers does not know everything that Exodus International does.
When Montel said something was on the EI website, Chambers denied that it was there. So, the actual webpage where what Montel was talking about was projected on the big screen in the studio, Chambers was quite shocked.
Is Chambers’ position with Exodus like John Paulk’s was when Paulk was the EI Board President in 2001. Paulk was not in charge of Exodus at that time; Bob Davies was. Davies was the Chief Executive Officer, CEO, back then. Davies was at Exodus’ HQ in Seattle while Paulk worked for Dobson’s Focus on the Family as the Human Sexuality Expert.
There is an article about this and other ex-gay issues in the LA Times today. Interesting reading.
Already in the works Jimbo 😉
David Roberts, you know what bro…I remember the things you’ve said about your background. I think that will be my last tantrum for the year.
At least here.
I know already that somebody is gonna make me take off my earrings!