To quote ‘W’ we’ve smoked Exodus out of their hole. Randy Thomas finally responded this morning to concerns over his statements made on the Adam Carolla show.
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To quote ‘W’ we’ve smoked Exodus out of their hole. Randy Thomas finally responded this morning to concerns over his statements made on the Adam Carolla show.
I’m sorry, but Randy lost a great deal of credibility with me on this one. Namely because I did ask him about his statements and was given the brush off as if I didn’t matter. Furthermore, after reading Randy’s response, I didn’t feel like he answered the questions raised, rather used evasive answers to give the appearance of having truly answered the question.
I guess though I don’t expect any answers from guys like Randy that aren’t evasive, or worse. Like so many in the “ex-gay” movement, they are masters at disguise and hiding who they really are. It’s a way of life I’m quite familiar with having lived it for years.
j.
Well, It’s not like LIA/R have to accept people into their program against their will, or is it? If the government says it’s ok to burn your kids with cigarettes, is it morally ok to do the actual burning if the kid’s parents tell you to? I don’t think so.
Randy also does not tell his readers that the LIA/R action by the state was about distributing prescription drugs without a license.
It had absolutely nothing to do with “religious freedom” as Randy alludes to in his post.
Spinning and omission of the real facts are complete lies in my opinion and Randy has been called on it over and over again.
Randy Thomas chose to appear on the Adam Carolla Show and mislead an audience about Exodus’ extreme position on parental rights — namely, that it does not support self-determination of any kind for 17-year-olds.
It is therefore Thomas’ responsibility to correct his error and clearly explain Exodus’ apparent policy that same-sex-attracted 17-year-olds have no right to “self-determination.”
If they are sincere in their claim to be Christian, then Exodus cannot cop out and falsely accuse a state government of forcing their ministry to permit parental abuse of a 17-year-old. No such law exists in Tennessee — ministries are free to set their own conditions for admission, including a requirement that the teen-ager voluntarily request admission without undue parental pressure.
The problems is that they don’t see teens as people, they see them as belongings of their parents who have to obey their parents ever bidding. So when a 17 year old is forced into their program, in their minds the only persons involved are the parents, not the youth.
Randy says
Well let’s see if that’s true.
Hmmmm… Now let’s see who is on the Board of Directors that establishes policy for Exocus International.
OK, so the Executive Director of LIA/R is the Vice Chairman of Exodus. And LIA/R is (I believe) the ONLY live in youth residential program in Exodus.
And what does
mean? Are not the 17 year olds people? I’m unclear – are you saying life starts at conception but you aren’t a person until you’re 18?
So, Randy, explain that bit about autonomous, people, and the other 149 non-existent youth residence programs to me again. Otherwise I’ll start thinking you have a real truth problem.
Perhaps it’s time for another video.
Randy Thomas said (defending LIA’s policy of forcing kids into ex-gay programs):
“The parents came to Love In Action and entered their underage children…which they have a right to do according to law.”
Randy: The fact that something is LEGAL doesn’t make it RIGHT. Slavery was once legal. You have to appeal to some higher moral principle, not just cop out and say “it’s legal…”
By the way, you guys make statements against things that are legal ALL THE TIME. Hate crime laws are legal and EXODUS opposes them.
So essentially Randy is admitting that he and LIA are moral cowards. Come to think of it, after reading his attempt at spin I’d say he is an intellectual coward as well.
Ms. Erzen reported a great deal of sexual activity occurring in the residential ex-gay program that she studied.
I wonder how much sexual activity occurs in this teen program. I wonder if these kids mix with adults that are also going through the program. I also wonder what policies the program has in place for any teen being alone with adults who are conducting the program.
While adult sexual activity among program participants is probably embarrassing, I would think that a teen sexual scandal would be an absolute disaster for LIA/R.
It is something to keep an eye on.
I wonder how much sexual activity occurs in this teen program. I wonder if these kids mix with adults that are also going through the program. I also wonder what policies the program has in place for any teen being alone with adults who are conducting the program.
While adult sexual activity among program participants is probably embarrassing, I would think that a teen sexual scandal would be an absolute disaster for LIA/R.
It would also be damaging for the gay community as well. It could very well confirm and reinforce within “Fundie” Christian circles that all gays are pedophiles. There would be damage on both sides if adults and teens were having sex together.
I pray this never happens.
Is it just me or does Thomas’ response sound really desperate? His statement threw every argument he could think of just see if anything sticks, while never directly addressing the issue of people (yes, minors are people) being forced into an Exodus-member ministry.
Thomas said “The video also fails because it completely ignores parental rights afforded to the parent’s by the state.“. In his very next statement he lies and contradicts himself by saying: “[The video] further fails because it assumes that teenagers can’t think for themselves…“.
His harping on parental rights to force their children into the program shows he’s the one that thinks thinks teenagers can’t think for themselves.
He then totally distorts reality by continuing “…as obviously displayed by the young man in the video who came out of the program to determine he was going to pursue his identity centered around homosexuality.”
Deciding to accept one’s same sex attractions is not a case of “pursuing one’s identity centered around homosexuality” any more than accepting opposite sex attractions is to be obsessed with heterosexuality.
I just read the Randy Thomas response, and was going to point out the same thing Randi Schimnosky pointed out regarding late teens not have a voice of whether they enter a Love In Action camp, and then pointing out that teenagers can think for themselves. I can draw two conclutions from that train of thought by Randy Thomas:
1. Thinking within confines of the given scenario is limited to approving of a trip to a Love In Action retreat, and
2. Randy Thomas is arguing from inconsistency.
The problem with the way Randy Thomas phrased his original commnent is that it allowed no exception to the position that reparative therapy is always voluntarily entered into. Instead of addressing the issued raised by Daniel Gonzalas in a straight forward manner, he argued from inconsistency.
A straight-forward answer was called for, either accepting or rejecting the proposition that Randy Thomas’s original statement wasn’t true in all circumstances. We didn’t get that kind of an answer from Randy Thomas — instead we read an answer full of bluster and inconsistency.
There’s at least one reason Exodus International isn’t respected much outside of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christian circles, and it has to do with what their leaders say, and how their leaders say what they say. Examples of questionable honesty include making up numbers on how many former identified gays there are, that all who identify as gay “gave up on Christianity”, and that gays are “mortified” by gay activism.
This is classic doublethink:
To condense: Love In Action didn’t go out and force anyone into their program. They merely allowed other people to do that. No…let me amend that. They merely allowed other people to do it, for money.
Fine. And if someone gives me five-thousand dollars to use my car to rob a bank, and tells me up front all about it, I can’t claim I’m not a participant in that act of bank robbery. A Willing participant. I not only let them commit the crime without so much as lifting a finger to stop it (like…oh…calling the police…), I took money, not merely to look the other way, but to enable the crime.
And…yeah…forcing a gay teen into an ex-gay program where they’ll be taught to fear and loath their innermost selves isn’t a crime. And for that matter, neither is looking people in the face and lying through your teeth. Randy…your statement that “we respect a person’s right of self determination” is worth its weight in gold isn’t it?
Randy…what is Trustworthiness? What does it mean for a person to be trustworthy?
Interesting that Randy Thoma now seems to be distancing EXODUS from LIA, saying in effect, “We don’t do that — Love in Action does”. For years, EXODUS has named ONLY Frank Worthen of LIA as THE organizer of the first EXODUS conference — as though EXODUS was the offspring of LIA. Hardly “autonmous”.