Pure Passion is a new weekly television series endorsed and promoted by Exodus International and co-hosted by Exodus President Alan Chambers. David Kyle Foster produced Pure Passion as a function of Mastering Life Ministries, a member of the Exodus network. Myra Noyes, the Exodus Florida Regional Representative, also works with David Kyle Foster and Mastering Life Ministries. Exodus is deeply involved with this production and endorses it’s message.
During the third episode, David Kyle Foster took a few minutes to “clarify” homosexuality for the viewers. He started off this way.
You know, a great place to start when talking about homosexuality is to define the word. What is homosexuality? Well the first thing that should be said is that homosexuals do not exist.
I have often heard the lament from ex-gay staffers that they are told by gays that they don’t exist. Dr. Warren Throckmorton even produced a video about ex-gays titled “I Do Exist.” I don’t know if that has happened or not, but clearly we now know that Exodus and Mastering Life Ministries do not believe homosexuals exist.
You see, the word homosexual is not found anywhere in the Bible. Why? Because it was not even a word until modern psychology invented it.
Wow, that is quite a proclamation. I doubt he realized the deeper meaning and truth in that statement – that loving gay relationships did not exist in Biblical times as we understand them today. He means for this to support quite a different point of view. I’m afraid Foster’s credibility, such that it is, fades away quickly with the following.
The idea that there is a separate class of people who have been born with a naturally fixed identity and sexual orientation toward members of their own gender is completely foreign to both scripture and science. You wouldn’t think so from all the propaganda you here in the media, but it’s true.
I might add that not once does Foster give any reference to the science or any specifics, but speaks with the finality of a prophet. His “facts” consist mostly of quack theories with a pop-psychology flare and the Biblical interpretations of his own rather small sect of Christianity. Homosexual attractions are due to “arrested development” but the development can be started again, he says. Those who think they are homosexual, well they are just “wounded heterosexuals.”
While researching his website, I noticed many unsubstantiated statements but one struck me in particular. It’s something you may have heard before but I don’t think anyone has yet been quite this bold in the exaggeration.
As God heals those things that made you seek other men for sexual pleasure, your natural heterosexuality (which has been there all along, suppressed) will naturally begin to emerge, and like millions of other ex-gays, you will likely marry and have children and praise God for the rest of your life for the incredible miracle that He has done in you. [emphasis added]
Not only does he claim there are millions of ex-gays, but that most of them have married and have children! Considering the truly rough road that is an ex-gay marriage, this statement seems rather flip. What a horrendous expectation to lay on someone – counter to even the most optimistic estimations by the major ex-gay organizations.
I firmly believe, and always have, that people should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit. The only caveat is that those who believe they must live contrary to their sexual orientation should be given the honest facts about the difficulties and hardships involved in such a pursuit, and the understanding that the odds of real change occurring are very slim. In short, be honest with them. What I hear on this recording is not honesty.
This is a strong reminder. Exodus International, Alan Chambers, Randy Thomas, Mike Ensley – none of these individuals believe homosexuals exist. We are just damaged, stunted, victims of arrested development. Our lives are at best a symptom and at worst a lie. According to them, we absolutely can not serve God if we live our lives as the people we know we are. And lets just bring that into focus, they believe we are going to hell.
And of David Kyle Foster, I would ask how we are supposed to take seriously the claim that there are “millions of ex-gays” running around. Certainly you know sir that this is not true. Is it OK to lie now?
You see, the word homosexual is not found anywhere in the Bible. Why? Because it was not even a word until modern psychology invented it.
Wow. Such ‘profundity’ just leaves me breathless. Of course there are a number of things not mentioned in the Bible, but were ‘invented’ later on:
1. The Trinity. Not a single verse uses the word nor outlines the doctrine which Nicaea, Ephesus, and Constantinople taught. Ditto for the hypostatic union of the natures of Christ.
2. The New Testament as Scripture. Nowhere did Christ authorize His followers to write the Gospels or any other book of the New Testament. He did command them to teach and preach the Gospel, but not to make a ‘book’ about it which is considered to be inspired by God. The only exception may be from a vision recounted in the Apocalypse, but this book was not considered canonical by many Chrsitians for 300 years afterwards.
3. Besides not commanding His followers to write the New Testament, nowhere did Christ teach them to bind all authority to the Bible, i.e. sola Scriptura is not found. Likewise, nowhere in the NT is the Primacy of Peter explicitly said to be passed on through the Bishops of Rome let alone any apostolic authority through the rest of the bishops.
4. Nowhere in the NT is faith alone or sola fide mentioned except in the Epistle of James, in the context of salvation is NOT by faith alone.
5. Nowhere does the NT explicitly condemn slavery, abortion, contraception, or a number of things which most Christians consider abhorrent.
Etc.
Now obviously there are Christians of different traditions who will dispute just about everything above, yet they do so based on an interpretation of Scripture. Such views gleaned from the NT may or may not be correct but most are not what is explicitly stated in the writings themselves. The canon of the NT itself, i.e. which books are Scripture, is based upon tradition. We can play these games like these so-called ex-gay groups all we want but such reasoning is deceptive, trite and self-destructive if one wishes to take it out to its logical conclusion.
Now obviously there are Christians of different traditions who will dispute just about everything above…
Yeah, I probably would myself – but that would be a tedious religious discussion and not germane to the subject 😉 That aside, your point is well made. Foster’s statement was quite absurd.
Going back to statistics found on a recent XGW post, the “homosexuals don’t exist” stance probably is an issue where Pure Passion/Exodus has the least traction with the general public. If 72% to 88% of the general public believes gays and lesbians should have employment non-discrimination protections, then at the very least 72% to 88% of the general public believes gays and lesbians exist.
Hmmmm . . . what if we don’t exist? Couldn’t all us Lesbians and Gay men be nothing but figments of these people’s overactive imaginations? I’m not personally concerned that I might abruptly disappear in a cloud of ethereal dust; for the fundies’ sake, though, I do hope nothing wakes them up out of their dream world! Whatever would they DO without us? Who would they have as much fun agitating against? Where could they find a more effective fund-raising tool? Their existence would be so hard to justify without us to around to scapegoat; imagine how empty and pointless their lives would be! Oh, WRETCHEDNESS! Sob! Sob! It’s so sad, it really doesn’t bear thinking about . . .
Ah — More data LGBT people exist.
Yeah, I probably would myself – but that would be a tedious religious discussion and not germane to the subject 😉 That aside, your point is well made. Foster’s statement was quite absurd.
Thanks, that’s the only point I was making. I am a Christian myself and when asked I have no problem taking Peter’s words to heart and giving a defense for why I believe. Yet, I learned a long time ago from online “apologetics wars” between Catholics and Protestants that much of this line of reasoning by Foster only leads to the doctrine of M.A.D.
Not being a big Bible-reader, I wonder: does the word “Christian” appear in the Bible?
The word “Christian” appears in the bible numerous times. But the word “Trinity” does not.
So, I guess that means the Trinity doesn’t exist.
Oh… John already covered that in the FIRST comment!
Not being a big Bible-reader, I wonder: does the word “Christian” appear in the Bible?
I see that Jim answered your question, but to give specifics: 3 times that I know of.
Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16.
How can we GLBT folks be a threat to marriage and society if we do not exist?
How can there be a link between pedophilia and homosexuality if homosexuality doesn’t exist? (I suppose there is next a link between Bug Bunny and the creation of the Ford Mustang too!)
How can homosexuals be “infiltrating” the schools of we don’t exist.
Generally, there are medications for people who try to fight something that doesn’t exist!
It seems the easiest way to get yourself some semblance of authority in what you say is to become a preacher. I wonder how preachers fair on the professions most trusted any more. I further wonder what moral strength and character does it take to make up the lies they do.
Am I wrong but in on bio did David Kyle Foster claim to have been a male prostitute? I see his “conversion” came in 1980 the same year his made-for-TV movie, The Great Cash Giveaway Getaway was aired. The 10 years prior to 1980 he was a “materialist and humanist, not mention a C-list actor (as David Kyle). Did the prostitution occur between the infrequent jobs as an actor? Or was this the casting couch?
For a group that doesn’t exist, there certainly seem to be a lot of ministries designed to make us go away. How can we go away if we were never here?
Logic trumps again.
I LOVE you guys!
Ah, “homosexuals don’t exist”. It’s all part of the ex-gay word game. If homosexuals are just normal people who are stunted in development, then “real change” is easy.
It’s very very similar to religious conversion; in the same way saying “I accept Christ as Savior” miraculously changes you into a new person, so too does the anti/ex-gays believe that saying “I am not gay” miraculously changes you into, well, it’s hard to say exactly what.
But considering the “you can’t be gay and Christian” dogma we’ve heard lately, it seems that they are claiming that saying “I am not gay” is what makes you a Christian. And that is blasphemy.
If people are to accept Exodus’s logic saying gays do not exist then it naturally follows that Christians do not exist as “there is [not] a separate class of people who have been born with a naturally fixed identity” as Christians.
It’s very very similar to religious conversion; in the same way saying “I accept Christ as Savior” miraculously changes you into a new person, so too does the anti/ex-gays believe that saying “I am not gay” miraculously changes you into, well, it’s hard to say exactly what.
I suspect the way you state this would be considered close to mockery to a lot of sincere believers and their understanding of Scripture (me included if I didn’t know you so well). I certainly believe there is a change in the status of a person who honestly asks Christ to accept them, and that is a miracle in and of itself. And while I think the norm is for a life to be gradually changed during the walk, I’ve definitely seen a few people change 180 degrees and stay that way. One size does not fit all.
However, we are conflating dissimilar things; saying “I’m not gay” is a far cry from engaging in a relationship with one’s God. One is God’s will, one is not. I realize I am speaking from a Christian point of view here, but it seems appropriate considering the comment. One of the things that frosts me most about the ex-gay organizations is the irony that they associate heinous ideas with God and therefore turn many people away from Him in the belief that faith in God = struggle to become straight.
If people are to accept Exodus’s logic saying gays do not exist then it naturally follows that Christians do not exist as “there is [not] a separate class of people who have been born with a naturally fixed identity” as Christians.
I understand what you are trying to say Randi, but it’s apples and oranges. They would fully admit that Christians started life like everyone else, and then changed.
Well, David, I would say if its not important to distinguish gays as a group because they can change then its not important to distinguish Christians as a group because they can (and in my opinion should) change. If there’s a difference here its lost on me.
“I suspect the way you state this would be considered close to mockery to a lot of sincere believers and their understanding of Scripture”
Yeah, ooops it did look like mockery. Sorry.
I was trying to show how conversion to Christianity in the born-again tradition (the Sinner’s Prayer) leads to the miraculous transformation (a new creature in Christ) and how they have perverted that to require a different conversion (an Ex-Gay Sinner’s Prayer, if you will).
They’ve replaced “I accept Christ” with “I reject my gay identity”. They’ve set up a polarity wherein the opposite of gay is Christian to replace the natural polarity wherein the opposite of Christian is non-believer. And this is dangerous doctrine that should infuriate a devout Christian.
Sorry to keep ranting but it so angers me that they’ve added conditions to redemption. Repentence is no longer enough. You must also change identity.
I’m pretty tolerant of differing religious views and even of differing Christian views but that is herasy.
They are busy saying that you cannot be gay and Christian. Well I counter that you cannot believe “repentence is not adequate for redemption – you have to meet other qualifications” and be a Christian. Either you believe in Christ’s sacrifice or you don’t. Either Jesus forgives, or he doesn’t. You can’t say “Jesus forgives… but only if you change your self identity”. There is no Scripture, history, tradition, theology, or anything else in Christianity that justifies limitations on Christ.
This must come as a surprise to Arius.
Yeah, ooops it did look like mockery. Sorry.
While I understand the need for mutual respect and reasoned discourse on a discussion board, I can’t help but feel that the world would be a better place if the world’s religions were shown less respect and more mockery.
Skemono, who or what is Arius?
From newadvent.org :
Doctrine of Arius / Arianism: A heresy which arose in the fourth century, and denied the Divinity of Jesus Christ
Timothy said:
They’ve set up a polarity wherein the opposite of gay is Christian to replace the natural polarity wherein the opposite of Christian is non-believer.
I concur entirely. This also feeds the “us vs. them” mentality that is so necessary to that position. Have you ever seen old WWII movies where on a Japanese battleship there was always a guy with a large baton pointing to the attacking American plans? Wherever he pointed, the gunners would align the big guns and fire. Exodus, et al, are holding the baton, and gay men and women are the attacking enemy of God (according to them). I think it’s obvious who the gunners are.
Kind of confusing to state in one breath that gays don’t exist, and in another that there are millions of ex-gays. So an ex-gay is somebody who used to not exist, but now does?