For many years the Caribbean has had a culture that encourages abuse towards gays. This has been most visible in Jamaica where a popular style of music seems obsessed with violence and death to gay people but now it is spreading throughout the area.
As is discussed in an article by Wayne Besen, among many , the attack has not been restricted to words or music:
• Jamaican reggae star Buju Banton was recently arrested for allegedly leading a small group of thugs who burst into a local gay man’s home and beat him. His hit song ‘Boom Bye-Bye’ tells fans to shoot gay people.
• Two Jamaican gay activists Brian Williamson and Steve Harvey were murdered within the last two years – the crowd celebrating as they publicly mutilated Williamson’s body.
• In 2004, a Jamaican father arranged for a mob to lynch his own son after discovering he was gay. The teen barely escaped with his life.
• Recently a gay man drowned after being chased off a pier by an angry crowd in Montego Bay.
• When Rosie O’Donnell’s cruse landed in Nassau, they were met with protestors telling them that “sissies” were not welcome on the island
• This past week a gay man was chased through the campus of the University of the West Indies in Kingston, Jamaica by rioting students after a student claimed the man had propositioned him in a college washroom. Although the police saved his life, he is being investigated under Jamaica’s sodomy law and will be charged with trespassing.
• Last week two gay newsmen were beaten with a tire iron outside a bar in St. Maarten. The police did not respond to calls for help.
The homophobia and violence in the Caribbean has reached the point where it has caught the attention of the straight world. Time Magazine has named Jamaica the most homophobic spot on earth.
The Caribbean communities have not felt shame for their actions. A Jamaican newspaper protested that they were not homophobic because they did not fear gays, gays feared them. A newspaper on St. Maarten blamed the victims for their own brutal beating and “silly homosexuals” in New York for trying to make anti-gay violence a “no-no”.
Exodus is stepping into this climate to bring a seminar on “Sex, Sexuality and Homosexuality: Engaging the Truth”.
What message will this seminar bring to this part of the world where murder of gay people is glorified and celebrated? The opening comment on their website gives us a clue:
As the world promotes more sexual freedom, increasing numbers of children, teens and adults in every part of the world are struggling with and being hurt by homosexuality, prostitution, sexual abuse, gender changes, pornography, sex before marriage and sex outside of marriage. Do you or your church know how bad the problem of sexual brokenness is?
In other words, the problem is not murder, but children being hurt by homosexuality. The Caribbean need not fight against beatings and death, but against sexual freedom. Lest there be any confusion that Exodus wishes to oppose the brutality and bring a message of change, the heading given to their flyer advertising this event is:
Some say decriminalise homosexuality……we say lets offer solutions
And what will the speakers have to say?
I was unable to find much about Pat Lawrence, other than she seems to focus on “how bad is sexual brokenness?”
However, on speaker DL Foster there is plenty. DL is not hesitant to clearly demonstrate the level of contempt he has for those individuals who are gay. DL has said the following:
On Foster’s religious conversion
The TV screen came into focus and my eyes immediately fell upon a troubling scene…Then a strange then happened. The “scene” froze. Everyone and everything. Nothing moved except him… He said to me, “I did all of this just for you.” Then he lowered his head again and continued on up the hill with his cross, on his way to PROVE what he had just said…When I came to myself I looked again at the crowd. This time I recognized a familiar face: it was my own. I also realized it was Jesus who has spoken to me.
On United Church of Christ ads welcoming all
The UCC has been co-opted by spiritually violent homosexuals who care little about the integrity of Christ’s church. Rather the church to them is simply a vehicle to launch an assualt on anyone who will not accept their lifestyle.
The question becomes then, how do we talk about the issues affecting us and important to us in the public square as former homosexuals under the threat of such harsh judgement? We can step out and advocate for our beliefs (which is our right as taxpaying citizens) or we can remain silent and hidden, thereby giving credence to a false idea that there are no former homosexuals…Like Daniel and Paul we must encounter our enemies in that arena and declare the glory of God.
On exgaywatch and those of us who write here
“XGWers” sit around like a bunch of gossiping sissies, oops queers, disparaging people and their lives, wetting your pink panties laughing at the death of good men and mocking the faith of Christians who disagree with you. BUT when you get an ounce of xlax you fall apart. Typical for a hen house.
On gay pride and the “all the people”
Do you think ancient Sodom held gay pride parades? I think they did. Everyday. Regardless of how long this has been going on, it is still very strongly considered unnatural behavior. Thousands of years of social standards have excluded homosexuality from acceptable sexual activity… Millions of Americans are sick and disgusted at having to endure what they believe is an affront to God Almighty… I want to be the first to applaud the President for cutting off the flow of official recognition for such a shameful, political spectacle. This is what I call being President of all the people.
And finally, as DL Foster heads to the Caribbean, site of murder and beatings, here are his thoughts on homophobia in Jamaica
I have written before that so called homophobia is a justified reaction…In his powerfully written argument published in the Jamaica Gleaner, Dr. Leachim Semaj says “I take issue with the recent discussion describing Jamaican people who see homosexuality as dysfunctional or deviant as being sick people. This is what is done when one subscribes to the concept of “homophobia”…Dr. Semaj who has written for major outlets internationally, is on point with his commentary.
I think it is quite clear that the choice to send DL Foster to Barbados was not accidental. His message of derision of gay people and his championing of homophobia is the message that Exodus has for the Caribbean.
I wonder if they’ve gone too far. I wonder if violence and death will result from this seminar. I wonder if finally some of those in Exodus will look at the blood on their hands and realize that in their efforts to win political battles they have become instruments of evil.
ADDENDUM: Thanks to grantdale for brining this trip to our attention along with Scott for Foster’s personal attack in reponse to this thread
Alan Chambers is more than welcome to comment on this. I’d hope he’d have a few kind words to all of us.
Since he’s the president of Exodus, I think he has an obligation to address this.
I’d say more than just an obligaion. He has a responsibility to address this.
I should explain… Obligation is what he takes on as president of the organization. He needs to go even beyond that. I’m calling on him to accept personal responsibility for stoking the flames in an already combustible environment.
Foster’s a loose cannon, and it is shameful that Exodus would associate themselves with the likes of him. It is unconscionable however to export his brand of hatred to places where severely beating and killing gay people is sanctioned by society and police forces.
Not just as president of an organization, but as a Christian and as a human being. Alan Chambers needs to answer this.
DL has suggested that Dr. Leachim Semaj would be “a good candidate for NARTH”. I wonder if he would still champion Semaj if he knew that he is a rastafarian who favors overturning the laws which make the practice of witchcraft illegal?
“And according to psychologist, Dr. Leachim Semaj, a rastafarian, because many Jamaicans do not understand the origins of the practice, it continues to be feared.
“We (need) to get back to basics, to try to understand the traditional healers. Some call them obeahman, some call them voodoo man, some call them griot,” he says.”
https://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43/165.html
If I were DL (oh thank God I’m not DL) I’d think long and hard before going to Jamaica. If he makes too much of being “formerly” gay, he may not escape the island alive.
The way I see it, Alan has 3 ways he can deal with this.
1. Repudiate DL’s hate speech and the treatment of gays in Jamaica.
2. Applaud DL for his hate speech and advocate fully for the criminalization of gay relationships.
3. Remain silent.
I’ve got money down on #3. Anytime something gets out of hand, Exodus clams up and pretends it never happened.
Sometimes it brings tears to my eyes when I think of the relief and joy it brings me to live in a country that has recently eliminated the last official discrimination against gay people. Then I hear these stories about other countries so horrible it seems surreal and I feel dizzy and sick.
DL Foster asks “Why is it a “phobia” to not love homosexual acts and other perversions and to resist the pressures to give private perversions the status of public acceptance?”.
Well, DL, its a simple matter of fairness. One person’s private perversion is another’s joy. You’re not the sole official judge of what’s acceptable. What demands these “homosexual” (I’m glad you acknowledged you intend that as an insult) acts be publicly accepted is that no one is getting hurt and they are between conscenting adults. The public, society has no moral right to infringe on any act that doesn’t hurt anyone else. Its just that simple.
DL, I support your right to any perversion you desire as long as you’re not hurting anyone with the possible exception of yourself. In all fairness you owe me the same.
Some say decriminalise homosexuality……we say lets offer solutions…
Obviously the answer for the Caribbean is to decriinalize-if it hasn’t been done already-the beating and killing of anyone thought to be gay.
I just love these Christian folks, Jesus must be retching.
I find it interesting that DL Foster continually calls us ‘exgayphobes’ too. I have a fear of DL’s venomous hatred, but that seems pretty rational to me given the kinds of stuff he says, and that, to him, exgayphobes (guess that’d be us) have “characters lower than alley rats.” When you think your “enemy” has less character than an alley rat, seems like you wouldn’t have to be pushed too hard to do something hateful.
And then he also goes on to say, “What’s really a parody is that homosexuals are doing their utmost to act, talk and look like they are heterosexual or in their minds normal. That’s a real parody for you.” Wait, isn’t that what (some, not all) ex-gays do?
Regarding the quote “Some say decriminalise homosexuality……we say lets offer solutions”
So, what they really want is to offer solutions (you can change) so that they can justify keeping it criminalized.
Which is what they’d love to see happen here in the U.S., too.
This is just disgusting.
Scott, I agree with you. I’m sure the silence from Exodus will be deafening (although in the background we’ll still hear a little “meep! meep!”).
It seems with this DL can really say he is responsible for the death of others. He seems to support the idea that violence is okay as long as it is against gays.
Instead of denouncing the violence, they are going to bring their brand of bad science into the picture, confuse the topic more with misinformation. This will only result in more violence against gays. I am amazed that DL cannot see that lives could be lost in his mission.
What is sad, is that DL really truly believes in his heart he is helping people. In his mind he really thinks this will save someone. It will not be until blood is on his hands that he will see he has hurt far more people than he has helped.
Joe,
I will give you that most ex-gay activists truly believe that they are helping. And although many endorse positions, behavior, and the quoting of bogus “facts” that result in the torment of others, most are fighting “the homosexual livestyle” and do not deliberately attack and insult specific gay individuals.
DL is different. He sees gay people as his enemies and doesn’t seem to care if he’s “helping” anyone or not. I’m not sure if he would even care if someone was murdered as a direct result of his speech.
I believe most Exodus folk overlook the damage they cause. DL seems to rejoice in it.
Joe, I totally agree with Timothy.
And it’s not like Exodus and Alan specifically don’t know how “out there” DL is. In fact, I think it was mostly my consistent questioning about Alan allowing DL to spew his crap in the comments section of Alan’s blog that led Alan to quit having comments on his blog.
I remember I was horrified that Alan would let DL’s comments stand without comment or any kind of moderating of him – I had no idea at the time he was an ex-gay leader! That was shocking to find out…
Yeah, THE REAL EXODUS EXPOSED(and you did us proud Timothy!)There will not be a peep (or a meep) out of Exodus about this, but let’s be clear:Exodus is in Barbados to help keep homosexuality a criminal offense. Blatantly.Evidence: Main speaker: Pat Lawrence, current Executive Director of Exodus Glodal Alliance, past Board member of Exodus North AmericaEvidence: Main speaker: DL Foster, current Board member of Exodus Global Alliance and current Board member of PFOX.Evidence: those unmistakeable words on the conference flyer posted on both the Exodus and DL Foster’s sites.The Exodus claim of “loving people out of homosexuality” is plainly exposed as a complete lie. This organization wants to use prison terms against gay men and women — hiding behind Focus/CWFA/FRC during their support for the criminal laws with Lawrence v Texas, but more than pleased to do it themself in places where they think nobody will notice.Exodus isn’t about “support for individuals who want to recover from homosexuality” — they are about “abuse for individuals who refuse”.I don’t expect any response from Alan Chambers, or the usual suspects. Frankly, they KNEW this was occuring. They KNOW they have a sociopath on their Board. And they couldn’t care less.But I hope it gives others reason to pause knowing that Exodus has officially and directly involved itself in this campaigning. I particularly encourage current members of Exodus, or supporters of the organisation, to comment here.
There’s a little more info on the Barbados leg at another XGW post — heading down the endish part of the comments.Sorry Timothy. Couldn’t help myself, would have exploded or something 🙂
Hahahaha…well, obviously Foster’s only religious beliefs involve the reflection in the mirror. . .talk about sissy.
DL Foster sounds like a man who definitely has some major psychological issues. A man who spews that kind of hate and claims to be “ex-gay” definitely ought to go and look at himself in the mirror. The energy he uses and words he uses in his speech tells me far more about this man than those he derides. Me thinks he doth protest too loudly.
I think he is actually helping our cause in some ways. The reality is that the majority of Americans who are extremely fed-up with President Bush (the President he mentions) for the corruption of the administration and who equate much of it with the Christian Right will see right through Foster. They’ll look at him as an extremist nut not unlike Fred Phelps and will reject his message as poison. Religion can be a dangerous and destructive thing especially when it is in the hands of individuals like Foster.
Worst of all he blames Jesus for his supposed “healing” when in reality it is all a self delusion for as Jesus said “by their fruits shall ye know them.” The fruits or “product” of Foster’s supposed conversion to Christ doesn’t show forth any of Christ’s works of love or genuine authentic charity. Foster’s hate speech is a big self-aggrandizing show typical of t.v. evangelists when they sink to their lowest. It also reminds me of the individuals who mocked and derided Christ (the Pharisees) and eventually led him to His death. Mr. Foster needs to realize that in the Bible Jesus said that when he has done it unto the least of these (his gay and lesbian brothers and sisters) he has done it unto Jesus Christ. In my view Foster will have to answer for this one day.
“Some say decriminalise homosexuality……we say lets offer solutions…”
I think Foster left out a word before “solutions.” The word is “final.”
You think I am kidding. KAPO!
Is he saying don’t decrimonalize it?
Ben Clark said, “I think he is actually helping our cause in some ways.”
That is probably true if considering the gay community locally. He could be said to be helping the cause of gay people in the U.S. in some ways. Perhaps that’s why he is going on a tour of a part of the world where his views are more mainstream. In fact, it should not be lost on us that D.L.’s everyday rhetoric seems to mirror the way societies in the Caribbean view gay people.
Off topic- this is a hoot:
https://www.cwfa.org/images/content/raplan0306.pdf
Well DL is throwing a heck of a hissy fit on his blog about this particular subject.
“Is he saying don’t decrimonalize it?”
That’s how I take it Joe. I’m sure if you asked them they’d deny it though and say they mean “don’t concern yourself with the criminal status of being gay”.
I’m not sure if I’ve mentioned what it’s like to be a straight person, anti gay groups try to persuade in their thinking.
I can hardly begin to tell you how inexhaustible (and insufferable)their illogic is.
The anti gay bloggers who are religious, have very little activity or comments from others. All that’s there are their own comments. Repeating and repeating again what either the Bible says or what other illogical anti gay people say.
I receive newsletters reminding me of what perverts gay people are for just being honest, and how fearful I should be of the ‘homosexual agenda’. Which are only two words, oft spoken but no elaborated on.
If there were something they were telling me that straight people didn’t do also, I might still be interested. But, since gay folks aren’t that alien and forceful in real life, it’s hard to take hissy throwing straight people that seriously. Their own are very disturbed people, but still, gay sex lives are looming big in their imaginations, not their real lives.
Living in the real world, does keep a person’s imagination from getting the best of them.
Those stealth gay folks that haven’t yet revealed themselves could laugh to keep from crying, I suppose.
Anti gay heterosexuals are embarrassing the **it out of me.
Ex gays aren’t making much sense at all.
But they are an embarrassment.
Perhaps simply because they are making themselves crazy over nothing.
And politically active ex gays carry on about everyone knowing they exist.
Yeah, and so?
The purpose of letting it be known, and insinuating themselves into school clubs and gatherings is to sell that:
1. gay kids really have an obligation to change because no one will like them or is supposed to.
And life will be a breeze if you pray hard enough.
But what they DON’T say is:
1. Being ex gay is wonderful, if you never have sex with who you’re really attracted to. Or marry who you’re really not attracted to.
And if you don’t find either: an permanently empty bed is what you can look forward to. Yeah, that plays well with a sixteen year old.
But that’s harder to sell than gay life is bad, dangerous, threatening and straight people hate you more than anything else in the world. Even terrorists.
2. Unlike a prescription on a bottle that tells you how much to take and it’s side effects, there is no such way to know exactly what kind of prescription, how much is needed or side effects there are for praying to be straight.
3. That same sex relationships indeed, are and can be fulfilling, happy and healthy-you just have to talk to the gay people with that life going on.
I would have far more respect for ex gays if they’d admit to what identity is and identities that are chosen, and those that are not.
No one’s sexual identity is chosen. One’s religious identity is.
And religious identity is far from rigid, but they will argue the mutability of sexual orientation.
At least for gay people?
Respecting those things would be a start where I could believe the sincerity of ex gays, and that they care to help people through physical and emotional problems that equally plague all people, gay or not.
They spend waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much time, bashing gay identity, rather than being able to sell the Christian lifestyle.
I suspect the reason is because one’s religious identity is fluid, it’s not subject to policing and neither does the government employ the religious to police gay people.
Unappointed Christians and others take that upon themselves.
And they further themselves from their sincerity by invoking their Constitutional rights to exist, while actively trying to destroy the unchosen sexual orientation of someone else, regardless of what gay people do OUTSIDE of their sex lives.
I can’t respect anyone that knows gay people’s orientation isn’t ALL they are or will do in life.
Particularly if, as gay people once upon a time, ex gays accomplished other good things while THEY were gay.
If they didn’t, that’s THEIR responsibility and they can’t make OTHER gay people suffer for what THEY couldn’t handle personally.
Reducing gay people to nothing but a sex life (whether they have one or not) IS dehumanizing.
We’re all sexual and expected to be, it’s a way of life for EVERYONE.
I’ve already been condescended to, if spoken to at all by ex gays.
I’m treated as if I’m not supposed to question them, but just accept WHATEVER they say as gospel.
Even if it’s contradictory, or completely illogical.
And of course, they NEVER describe anything that heteros don’t also suffer from.
The only things that heteros DON’T suffer from, is homosexuality.
But gay people are supposed to suffer heterosexuals without complaint, no matter how bloodied, jailed or lied about they get.
And just HOW does one qualify what ex gay is?
Living with the opposite sex as a married spouse? Having a couple of kids?
If they are single, if they are celibate?
Before any religious intervention, plenty of gay people try living that way. Bending to the rules ex gays say they should, before they are officially ex gay.
So it’s so frigging STUPID to say, this is the way to go, when so many already did and it really doesn’t work.
If ex gays want homosexuality to be questioned, then answer why living why trying to live as a straight person hasn’t worked either for so many?
Heterosexuals for CENTURIES have always maintained the conceit that what a gay person needs is to be ‘cured’ with a roll with a straight person.
If that doesn’t cut it, run to Jesus.
If that doesn’t work-take away every human freedom, and then gay people are supposed to heel.
But at no time, do ex gay people admit, that despite all that-it’s not that great being straight either.
It’s a condition we have no control over to begin with.
We’re gay or we’re not, and none of it by choice.
And it’s not, and never was, up to another human being to decide, not even whoever wrote about it in the Bible and Q’uran.
After many years now, of listening to ex gays, and those who support that gay people are obligated to change-I’ve come to the conclusion that ex gays are false in their commitment to reason and fairness.
They want to force their choice on someone else. They want gay lives doubted at every turn.
Otherwise they wouldn’t advertise “question homosexuality.”
That creates suspicion that homosexuality doesn’t belong and they try to tell us it never should.
Since no one is obligated to come to Christ, a gay person is not obligated to become Christian, or religious at all.
Being religious doesn’t automatically make you a good person, any more than being heterosexual does.
But ex gays, by and large don’t see it that way.
Switching sides doesn’t put them in charge of truth.
Gay people are in charge of what’s theirs, not ex gays. Sacrificing your identity isn’t a debt required by gay people.
And ex gays want to perpetuate that gay and straight people should FEAR homosexuality.
Fear it and eliminate it, disregarding that there is no need to. They are not licensed to, ESPECIALLY by the Constitution.
My rights as a human being are not suspended because I didn’t choose to be religious.
I haven’t chosen motherhood, nor am I obligated to be married.
NONE of those things make me a heterosexual, or proves it.
And ultimately, it doesn’t matter that I am.
What matters is that I am a human being.
I’d rather have gay people be able to be free and protected because they are human beings with equal potential to make great contributions.
Then with full conscious and faith could I believe that given the ability to STAY gay, a gay person WOULDN’T choose to try to live like a heterosexual.
Ex gays want me to believe theirs was a choice, while we all know that society is conditioned (including by them) that gay people are suspect in EVERYTHING they aim to do, beyond even the bedroom door.
The blogs of Chambers and Foster and Bennett and orgs. like FRC, FOTF and TVC and ADF tell that and the Heritage Foundation tell only that and forcefully.
And, as a straight person, when I don’t believe them and point out their illogic and contradictions, I’m attacked and silenced.
As I ask often: how is it that all the gay people are liars, and all the straight people and ex gay people are the only ones who know the truth?
I think, I’d rather God witness for itself now, instead of the likes of all these ex gays doing it.
They are making God look as illogical and contradicatory and mean as they are.
I don’t want to believe that God is that way.
And if an ex gay were sincere, they wouldn’t want that either.
This really makes me sick. Exodus’ actions are like those of a self-hating African-American going to South Africa to argue against ending the apartheid regime. It would be like a Holocaust survivor joining a neo-Nazi group. It just doesn’t make sense.
Why do these “ex-gays” hate themselves so much? Are they jealous of those of us who have embraced our sexuality and live our lives openly? Are they desperately trying to find an identity that would be palatable to their bigoted families and churches?
There is so much venom in Exodus’ allegation that our sexuality is “broken” and their lumping us in with prostitution, sex abuse, premarital sex and adultery. They simply refuse to see us as real people who are fine just as we are and instead seek to make us into deviant heterosexuals who just want everyone to embrace the “choice” we made. One can choose to become or patronize a prostitute; one can choose to sexually abuse another person, or have sex before marriage, or even have extramarital sex – yet none of this changes the sexual orientation of the person involved! Were homosexuality just a “behavior” then perhaps they’d have a point, but homosexuality is a TRAIT, a CHARACTERISTIC, a NATURALLY-OCCURRING VARIATION – not a choice.
The remark about “gender changes” could only refer to the transgendered – and while I have great sympathy for their struggle in life, they are not gay and their goals and desires for themselves are quite different from our’s: TG’s actually want to change their gender and live as the opposite sex, whereas we seek to accept our sexuality and live openly as the men-loving-men and women-loving-women that we are. We aren’t trying to become someone else, we seek to become ourselves. (I have long opposed the inclusion of bisexuals and the transgendered in the gay and lesbian rights movement because of the differences in the needs and goals of these communities. I realize that some people may be offended by this, but ask that you think about it before flaming me. An honest assessment of sexual identity disorder – which is how the medical literature refers to the psychiatric disorder that the transgendered have – shows that there is a marked difference in being gay and wanting to have a sex change and to live as the opposite sex.)
The pain, fear and suffering of gays and lesbians in the Carribean is the problem, not the gays and lesbians themselves. They are victimized by a culture in which anyone or anything out of the mainstream is considered fair game for abuse. What is so hard to understand about that? How “Christian” is it to condone or encourage such violence?
“The remark about “gender changes” could only refer to the transgendered – and while I have great sympathy for their struggle in life, they are not gay and their goals and desires for themselves are quite different from our’s: TG’s actually want to change their gender and live as the opposite sex, whereas we seek to accept our sexuality and live openly as the men-loving-men and women-loving-women that we are. We aren’t trying to become someone else, we seek to become ourselves. (I have long opposed the inclusion of bisexuals and the transgendered in the gay and lesbian rights movement because of the differences in the needs and goals of these communities. I realize that some people may be offended by this, but ask that you think about it before flaming me. An honest assessment of sexual identity disorder – which is how the medical literature refers to the psychiatric disorder that the transgendered have – shows that there is a marked difference in being gay and wanting to have a sex change and to live as the opposite sex.)”
Ah, the ol’ “I want mine and screw the rest of you” argument. Gotta love it. I hardly know where to begin.
First of all, Jonathon, it wasn’t very long ago that homosexuality was considered a psychiatric disorder, so you may want to be a lil more careful about throwing that label around. Even most proponents of keeping GID in the DSM see the diagnosis as a political convenience for getting transition services covered by insurance.
Most transsexuals also say they aren’t trying to become someone else, but seek to become themselves. Tempting as it may be to believe, no, transsexuals are not frustrated homosexuals trying to deny their sexuality.
It’s also no good to try and flush the transgendered out of the gay community. As many as half of transsexuals effectively become homosexual on transition. Another large number are in the gay community before transition, and many stay involved to varying degrees out of solidarity. They’re already part of the community whether you like it or not. The disparaging of bisexuals is just plain odd. A homophobe who sees a guy kissing a guy and goes charging over with a baseball bat isn’t going to stop if they both exclaim, “Wait! We’re bisexuals!” Throw out the drag queens and diesel dykes and nellies too and at the end of the day you won’t have much of a “community” left. Half a dozen straight-acting Log Cabin Republicans won’t win the battle on their own.
Regan, I had to wipe the tears from my eyes after reading your post. I was going to highlight some of the best parts, but I realized I couldn’t pick and choose from such a powerful statement of right and wrong. It continues to amaze and bring me joy to have you express what my heart knows is important better than I can often do myself.
Jonathon, the gay community exists not because its members all have the same orientation but because the members all face the same kind of oppression. While transgendered people might not be the same thing as gay people and a Kinsey six might have goals than a Kinsey two, the assumptions that inform the bigotries of the people who hate us are all pretty much the same. With that consideration, it is wiser to embrace a politic of inclusion that fortifies our efforts rather than a politic of exclusion that diffuses them.
Jonathon said “I have long opposed the inclusion of bisexuals and the transgendered in the gay and lesbian rights movement because of the differences in the needs and goals of these communities. I realize that some people may be offended by this, but ask that you think about it before flaming me. An honest assessment of sexual identity disorder – which is how the medical literature refers to the psychiatric disorder that the transgendered have – shows that there is a marked difference in being gay and wanting to have a sex change and to live as the opposite sex.”.
Well Jonathon, as a transgendered bisexual I am profoundly disappointed in your comments. Of course there are differences between bisexuals, transgenders, gays and lesbians. But from my viewpoint what unites us is far more important than what divides us. And to me the most important thing that unites us is being hated and rejected by traditional heterosexual society that wishes to see all of us minimized and punished. If you can’t find common cause with bisexual and/or transgendered people in this I think you need a careful re-evaluation of your values right from the top down. I didn’t expect to be stabbed in the heart by someone I consider one of my own.
I can’t believe how quickly I went from the profound joy of being supported to the well known pain of being an outcast, a pain I normally am prepared for because it comes from anti-gay people.
We’re all hated because of desires that hurt no one Jonathon. I can’t help it if I desire both men and women. I can’t help it if I prefer to be female rather than the male I was at birth. Don’t be a bigot in the same way the anti-gays are, condemning people for desires they can’t help experiencing.
Some say decriminalise homosexuality……we say lets offer solutions
So much for “live and let live”…
Some say prosecute rape. We say lets teach the little sluts the proper shame for enticing men.
Jonathon, instead of just making bald assertions that the needs of bisexuals and the transgendered are different, how about listing several specific examples as to how. And then tell us specficially how you’d treat us differently from you to meet both our needs. Don’t just come up with unsupported statements and then say “don’t flame me.”.
Urgh, you’re right Scott… that is one heck of a hissy fit from a straight man. (slide over to DL’s site if readers missed Scott’s earlier post)I’d be amazed, but I’ve already realised he’s stark raving bonkers.Leaving aside the attempted bitch slapping of “Kincaid” — and that leaves very little — we do get confirmation of exactly what he and Exodus are doing there…
Acceptance? Change their religious beliefs? I’m not sure the good (gay) people of the Caribbean would even dream of that, or care about the other, at present. I’m sure they’d settle for not not being beaten up by gangs, or thrown in prison by their own government.What a fat head that man is.
I knew that my comments re: the transgendered were going to generate some flack. Although it is off-topic for this thread, I want to take a moment to clarify a few of my statements and respond to some of your’s.
“Boo” writes: “Ah, the ol’ ‘I want mine and screw the rest of you’ argument. Gotta love it. I hardly know where to begin.”
Well, Boo, you can “begin” by re-reading my post. Nothing in my post says “screw the transgendered and bisexuals”. I merely pointed out that the goals of the gay and lesbian community and the
goals of the transgendered are different and not necessarily compatible. As far as the bisexuals are concerned I think that we should recognize that when a bisexual-identified person is with a same-sex partner then they are basically “gay” in the eyes of the law, and when they are with an opposite-sex partner they are “straight” in the eyes of the law. So in my view there really
isn’t a “bisexual rights” issue since the law only discriminates against their homosexual activities – but I do respect the views of those who feel differently and would welcome input from other viewpoints.
“Boo” continues: “[I]t wasn’t very long ago that homosexuality was considered a psychiatric disorder…”
True enough. The APA dropped homosexuality as a mental disorder in the early 1970’s. Prior to that it was seen as a mental deviance, but psychological and sociological research shows that is not the case. The jury is still way out in terms of GID, and my labelling GID as a disorder should in no way be taken as slandering TG’s. As
I stated I have great sympathy for the struggle that TG’s face, both in terms of their internal struggle to understand themselves as well as the discrimination many face when they undertake the
gender reassignment process. I have no bias against TG’s, I just see the gay community as being very different from the TG community. Yes, many TG’s go through a period of experimenting
with homosexuality only to discover that they aren’t gay.
“Boo” continues: “Tempting as it may be to believe, no, transsexuals are not frustrated homosexuals trying to deny their sexuality.”
I didn’t say anything of the kind. I don’t think that TG’s are really homosexuals who can’t accept their same-sex orientation. I belive that TG’s require medical treatment to alleviate the pain and frustration they feel “trapped” in the body of the wrong sex. The treatment for GID is a sex-change operation. After surgery, don’t most TG’s want to live as and be accepted as their new gender? I know that there are some “genderfuck” aficionados out there who really don’t want to be one sex or the other, but I cannot imagine that anyone would go through the pain, suffering and high cost of sex-change surgery only to want to remain “in limbo” with their gender identity. I encourage TG’s to get the help that they need, and I do in fact have several TG friends – but I still don’t see how the goals of the transgendered are the same as our’s in the gay community.
“Boo” continues: “It’s also no good to try and flush the transgendered out of the gay community. […] Throw out the drag queens and diesel dykes and nellies too and at the end of the day you won’t have much of a ‘community’ left.”
I am not suggesting that we should do anything like that, but I am questioning the “alphabet soup” that many use to refer to the “Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgendered Questioning Queer Etc.” community. Are the needs and goals of bisexuals and the transgendered truly the same as ours? Is anyone stopping a bisexual man from marrying a woman? Is anyone stopping a male-to-female TG person marrying a man post-surgery?
Neither am I suggesting that “drag queens” (i.e., gay men in women’s clothing) or “diesel dykes” (i.e., masculine lesbians) are not part of the gay and lesbian community. Clearly these ARE members of the gay and lesbian community, or else they wouldn’t be called “queens” and “dykes”!
“Robis” writes: “Jonathon, the gay community exists not because its members all have the same orientation but because the members all face the same kind of oppression. While transgendered people might not be the same thing as gay people and a Kinsey six might have [different] goals than a Kinsey two, the assumptions that inform the bigotries of the people who hate us are all pretty much the same. With that consideration, it is wiser to embrace a politic of inclusion that fortifies our efforts rather than a politic of exclusion that diffuses them.”
Thank you, Robis. That is in fact the best argument that I have heard for including non-homosexuals under the gay and lesbian umbrella. I don’t specifically seek to exclude, but rather I simply question whether or not it is beneficial for either gays/lesbians or the transgendered to so closely identify with one another. It seems to me that lumping us all together is confusing to the hetero world: what is to make them think anything other than TG’s are just the same as gay people?
“Randi” writes: “Well Jonathon, as a transgendered bisexual I am profoundly disappointed in your comments. Of course there are differences between bisexuals, transgenders, gays and lesbians. But from my viewpoint what unites us is far more important than what divides us. And to me the most important thing that unites us is being hated and rejected by traditional heterosexual society that wishes to see all of us minimized and punished.”
Randi, I am sorry that you interpreted my comments as being anti-TG. I want to assure you that I am not. I merely disagree that the goals of the gay and lesbian civil rights movement are the same
as the goals of the transgendered. Bisexuals are discriminated against (in terms of the law) only when they are engaged in same-sex activity. Bisexuals would be discriminated against should they try to marry someone of the same-sex, but would have no problem marrying someone of the opposite sex – so IMHO the only problem for bisexuals has to do with their homosexual side.
“Randi” continues: “If you can’t find common cause with bisexual and/or transgendered people in this I think you need a careful re-evaluation of your values right from the top down. I didn’t expect to be stabbed in the heart by someone I consider one of my own. I can’t believe how quickly I went from the profound joy of being supported to the well known pain of being an outcast, a pain I normally am prepared for because it comes from anti-gay people.”
I never said that I don’t support TG’s or think that we do have some “common cause”; but I do wonder, however, how much commonality there really is between us. Yes, we are indeed despised because of who we are. Yes, we are different from heterosexuals. But if the goal of a TG person is to be/come the opposite sex is it not reasonable to assume that they would want to live as and be
recognized as their desired gender? I do not know any TG people who just want to be known as TG, a “third gender” so to speak, as opposed to living the life of someone who was born with the gender that they desire to be/come. Please know that I do indeed support you as a TG person and moreover as a human being. It pains me to read that you felt “stabbed in the heart”, but I really believe that you read into my original post harsh opinions that aren’t there. Questioning the validity of a political partnership between gays/lesbians and the TG is hardly the same thing as seeking to make you an “outcast” or to attack the TG community at large.
“Randi” continues: “We’re all hated because of desires that hurt no one Jonathon. I can’t help it if I desire both men and women. I can’t help it if I prefer to be female rather than the male I was at birth. Don’t be a bigot in the same way the anti-gays are, condemning people for desires they can’t help experiencing.”
You are right, Randi. We are indeed hated because of our desires and our inborn sexuality. I don’t question your right to engage in both homosexual and heterosexual sex. I don’t discount your identity as a transgendered person. I want you to have the full measure of civil and human rights, as well as good old fashioned respect for your own self-determination. I suggest only that the end game for gays/lesbians is different from the TG community and that perhaps both groups need to stand out from one another in order to demonstrate to the larger population who we are, what we want and why despite our differences each community is supportive of the other. In no way should my comments be read as “condemning” anyone.
I’d really like to express how very much I enjoy visiting this site and how much I appreciate the work that everyone involved with XGW puts into fighting back against Exodus and other “religious”
organizations who seek to permanently disenfranchise gays, lesbians, queers, the transgendered, the questioning, etc. from enjoying the full measure of their Constitutionally-protected civil and human rights. I enjoy reading the posts and gaining perspective on issues that we all face. I really don’t want anyone to think that I am in any way a bigot; that hurts me more than any of you can know.
Thanks again guys for your comments. I hope that I have clarified some of my positions and that we can continue to discuss (and even argue over) the issues. I realize that we may have to agree to
disagree on some things, but please know that I remain supportive of both the gay and lesbian community as well as the TG community.
🙂
Jonathon, instead of just making bald assertions that the needs of bisexuals and the transgendered are different, how about listing several specific examples as to how. And then tell us specficially how you’d treat us differently from you to meet both our needs. Don’t just come up with unsupported statements and then say “don’t flame me.”.
Posted by: Randi Schimnosky at April 26, 2006 04:55 PM
=============================================
Randi, you are overreacting. Please re-read my original post and also read my follow-up. You are reading WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much into my aside re: GLBT vs. G/L. I’d be happy to take this up with you offline, since the topic of this thread is not about TG/GL relations. Thanks!
Jonathon, I hadn’t read your follow up before I made the comment prior to this. Thankyou for clarifying your position. There are a few points I feel I must make.
You said “So in my view there really
isn’t a “bisexual rights” issue since the law only discriminates against their homosexual activities – but I do respect the views of those who feel differently and would welcome input from other viewpoints.”
The fact that the law discriminates against a bisexual person’s gay activities means that the law discriminates against gays. In fact what you are saying here is not that bisexuals and gays have different needs to be pursued seperately, but that the need of gays and bisexuals is the same and should be pursued the same in this instance.
You asked “Are the needs and goals of bisexuals and the transgendered truly the same as ours? Is anyone stopping a bisexual man from marrying a woman? Is anyone stopping a male-to-female TG person marrying a man post-surgery?”.
In this case once again, the needs are the same. Indeed in some states a male to female TG is still considered male and cannot marry a woman. What about myself I am male to female TG and if something were to happen to my boyfriend there’s everyreason to believe I might desire to marry another woman just as much as a man. Either way, as a bisexual TG, in the States I would be prevented from freely choosing to marry whomever I am most attracted to, just as gays are.
You also said “Bisexuals would be discriminated against should they try to marry someone of the same-sex, but would have no problem marrying someone of the opposite sex – so IMHO the only problem for bisexuals has to do with their homosexual side.”.
Once again, given what you described bisexuals experience the same discrimination as gays. Bisexual needs and goals are the same as gay needs and goals. Its wrong to suggest we are not the same here, even though the label is different.
Finally, Jonathon, you said “But if the goal of a TG person is to be/come the opposite sex is it not reasonable to assume that they would want to live as and be
recognized as their desired gender? I do not know any TG people who just want to be known as TG, a “third gender” so to speak, as opposed to living the life of someone who was born with the gender that they desire to be/come.”
Yes I want to be recognized as my desired female gender, but doesn’t mean I don’t want the “gay” right to be in a same sex marriage with a woman. Once again, the transgendered need and goal is the same as the gay need and goal.
While I want people to see me as feminine as possible, it is inescapable that I AM the third gender. I simply cannot be exactly as female as a genetically born woman and it would be personally helpeful to me if society made accomodations for the third gender like gender neutral bathrooms. I fear getting assaulted in the men’s washroom and I am uncomfortable being in the women’s knowing some women would be uncomfortable having me there. I would be prefered to be accepted as female by everyone but I can’t force that. In that small way I suppose the needs of TGs and gays are different, although I suspect a lot of gay men would prefer a bathroom they don’t have to share with homophobic straights of either gender.
OOPs, my statement “The fact that the law discriminates against a bisexual person’s gay activities means that the law discriminates against gays.” should have said “means the law discriminates against bisexuals just like gays”
hey guys… I’d love to read what DL has to say about me. But for some reason I don’t seem to able to find it. Can you provide a URL?
“Well, Boo, you can “begin” by re-reading my post. Nothing in my post says “screw the transgendered and bisexuals”. I merely pointed out that the goals of the gay and lesbian community and the
goals of the transgendered are different and not necessarily compatible.”
Well, perhaps I can be forgiven for thinking that when you said that you have long opposed the inclusion of bisexuals and the transgendered in the gay and lesbian rights movement because of the differences in the needs and goals of these communities what you meant was that you have long opposed the inclusion of bisexuals and the transgendered in the gay and lesbian rights movement because of the differences in the needs and goals of these communities.
“As far as the bisexuals are concerned I think that we should recognize that when a bisexual-identified person is with a same-sex partner then they are basically “gay” in the eyes of the law, and when they are with an opposite-sex partner they are “straight” in the eyes of the law. So in my view there really isn’t a “bisexual rights” issue since the law only discriminates against their homosexual activities – but I do respect the views of those who feel differently and would welcome input from other viewpoints.”
Actually, what you originally said was that you did not want bisexuals in the gay rights movement. Now you appear to be saying that you do not want bisexuality in the gay rights movement but that bisexuals should just subsume themselves into apparent homosexuality for purposes of inclusion in the gay rights movement.
“The APA dropped homosexuality as a mental disorder in the early 1970’s. Prior to that it was seen as a mental deviance, but psychological and sociological research shows that is not the case. The jury is still way out in terms of GID, and my labelling GID as a disorder should in no way be taken as slandering TG’s.”
Then there should be no slander to homosexuals to point out that homosexuality used to be considered a mental disorder. A deviance. An incomplete psychosexual development wherein the homosexual is essentially a psychological infant incapable of real love and committment. News flash: they took the same exact crap they used to pile on homosexuals and just stuck it on transsexuals.
“I didn’t say anything of the kind. I don’t think that TG’s are really homosexuals who can’t accept their same-sex orientation. I belive that TG’s require medical treatment to alleviate the pain and frustration they feel “trapped” in the body of the wrong sex.”
You said:
“TG’s actually want to change their gender and live as the opposite sex, whereas we seek to accept our sexuality and live openly as the men-loving-men and women-loving-women that we are. We aren’t trying to become someone else, we seek to become ourselves.”
That was extremely insulting. Not to mention that the way you phrased it does indeed imply that we cannot accept our sexuality, or choose not to, and do not want to “live openly.” Perhaps that’s not the way you meant it to come across.
“As I stated I have great sympathy for the struggle that TG’s face, both in terms of their internal struggle to understand themselves as well as the discrimination many face when they undertake the gender reassignment process. I have no bias against TG’s, I just see the gay community as being very different from the TG community. Yes, many TG’s go through a period of experimenting with homosexuality only to discover that they aren’t gay.”
You may consider yourself to have sympathy, but you do not appear to have much understanding of the struggle we face. The exgay movement proclaims that it has sympathy for the struggles that homosexuals face but fundamentally misunderstands what those struggles are. The great majority of TSs are in the gay community at some point in our lives. There are a heck of a lot more transdykes and transfags out there than you may realize, and most of us don’t carry signs.
“but I still don’t see how the goals of the transgendered are the same as our’s in the gay community.”
LGBs and Ts are both targetted for essentially the same reason: violating gender norms. No matter how straight appearing a gay person is, sex with someone of the same gender violates society’s normative expectations of gender behavior. And it’s not a coincidence that those LGBs who bear the brunt of the violence tend to be the most gender noncomforming. (And btw, pointing out the fact that one has friends who are [insert group] as evidence that one is not biased against [insert group] usually means that one is indeed biased against [insert group])
“”Boo” continues: “It’s also no good to try and flush the transgendered out of the gay community. […] Throw out the drag queens and diesel dykes and nellies too and at the end of the day you won’t have much of a ‘community’ left.”
I am not suggesting that we should do anything like that, but I am questioning the “alphabet soup” that many use to refer to the “Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgendered Questioning Queer Etc.” community. Are the needs and goals of bisexuals and the transgendered truly the same as ours? Is anyone stopping a bisexual man from marrying a woman? Is anyone stopping a male-to-female TG person marrying a man post-surgery?
Neither am I suggesting that “drag queens” (i.e., gay men in women’s clothing) or “diesel dykes” (i.e., masculine lesbians) are not part of the gay and lesbian community. Clearly these ARE members of the gay and lesbian community, or else they wouldn’t be called “queens” and “dykes”!”
But you see, they’re also considered transgendered. So yes, there’s a hell of a lot of overlap. Are the needs of the transgendered and bisexuals truly the same as for LBs? Well, for bisexuals the answer is clearly yes. For Ts, the answer is to a fair degree yes, said degree increasing even more when we’re talking about gay and lesbians transsexuals. (And despite what the DSM may tell you, there are a LOT of gay and bi transmen.)
Is anyone stopping a male-to-female TG person marrying a man post-surgery? Yes. Many people are. Many states are. I’ll give you three guesses just who the first people who had DOMA laws invoked against them were, and I’ll be dissappointed if you need the last two. Quite a few states have invalidated TS marriages on the grounds that they’re “really” gay marriages. Some have even gone so far as to ignore the Constitution’s Full Faith and Credit Clause in the process. The Littleton decision in Texas even managed to contradict itself (by saying in the beginning of the decision that the court did not have jurisdiction to decide what legally constitutes a man or a woman and at the end of the decision saying what constitutes a man or a woman is XX or XY genes) and could be read as saying that genetically intersexed people don’t legally exist in Texas.
You did initially say you didn’t want the transgendered or bisexuals in the gay rights movement, now you’re being more ambiguous. Which is it?
Posted by: Timothy Kincaid at April 26, 2006 06:38 PM
I looked for a fair while too and couldn’t find it. Every now and then I like to try and debate DL to keep in practice with the most vehemently anti-gay voice I can find.
https://psimo.blogspot.com/
It’s a hoot n’ a half.
Jonathan, Randi, Boo, and anyone else…
sorry guys, this discussion is off subject.
The following topics are welcome on this thread:
DL Foster
Pat Lawrence
Homophobia in the Caribbean
Exodus exporting anti-gay rantings into a place that currently has high rates of murder and violence against gays
Exodus countering the idea that homosexuality should be decriminalized
The total silence of Alan Chambers, Mike Ensley, etc. about DL Foster taking to the Caribbean the message that homophobia is justified
The blood on the hands of those who stir up anti-gay sentiments which result in beatings, persecution, and death
Time for a new open thread!!!
Randi,
Sweetheart, I love you. You are my friend because you have been kind and intelligent and I’ve enjoyed getting to know you, very much.
I don’t know what gets into me, sometimes. I can’t imagine what that’s like to have lived the lives you all have.
But I do appreciate you telling me how it’s been for you.
You bear your own witness, and I’m no one to deny you what YOU know and feel.
On many levels, I’ve been flying by the seat of my jeans.
I have Jamiel here. I also have Bryan here-another beautiful man of color.
I know what they’ve been up against, so I’ll be their friend, instead of judge them.
They are both so gentle with me and each other. I’m so GRATEFUL these two strong young folks are here to remind me of what I have going on in life and what we could all do to better a lot of things together.
They aren’t the first, but I guess I understand my obligations more and more.
I don’t have to be gay-maybe it takes outrage at injustice.
Open ears, open arms. I don’t have the authority to speak on what it’s like to be gay or transgendered.
I have plenty of elegant transgendered friends as well as gay and lesbian ones. We’re like a cloth of many threads, but such things can become beautiful when woven together properly.
Maybe what sets me apart, is I have no fear OF gay people.
Maybe fear FOR is a better term.
And I’ll fight ignorance. I HATE ignorance if I hate anything most passionately.
I don’t like that being used as a weapon any more than fear is.
Let ’em call me an ex gay phobe. But they’d be wrong.
I’LL state what my phobia really is. It’s the social coercion that creates ex gays in the first place, not the ex gays themselves.
If they work to pour the same poison into the ears that created THEM, then I’ll say so.
I can’t appreciate anyone that avoids risks that they want others to take for them.
Baiting their hooks in the Caribbean, ripe for the fishing is exactly what I’m talking about.
I can’t and won’t forget just how many young gay people that I know that have been blackmailed and threatened into submitting to what the straight people in their lives want from them.
You all know better than I what that is and what that means.
Even someone like say, Chad Thompson, who doesn’t bear the ill will on the surface these others do, still represents something that’s not healthy.
1. That he is a product of early conditioning. He admits to being terrified of his orientation and what it meant. Terror is fear, isn’t it?
2. That as a man who didn’t keep his own orientation, he’s a poor defender of it for others, especially gay youth.
He may be kind, but he’s placing himself in schools and churches as an ‘alternative’ to being gay. His mere presence is validating what straight people are conditioned to EXPECT.
And the point is, they should NEVER expect it, and HE shouldn’t just show up and suggest it as if his own initial terror was a healthy response to being gay.
Only later tempered by faith, and inexperience in any sexual relationship with men or women.
He cancels out the purpose of young gay people’s authenticity and purpose for coming out.
Being kind and well meaning, doesn’t always help. One can not intend to hurt, but hurt anyway. He may not intend to hurt the individual, but he hurts their cause for being.
As a straight person, I too am just as likely to make a complete ass of myself when dealing with folks from the GLBT community.
But I DO know how to deal with STRAIGHT folks, or those that claim they are now straight.
Those of us, if we really wanted to help, should be first, in the business of believing our gay loved ones and not DICTATING the terms of who they are and what they should be or do.
And ex gays prefer to dictate to gay people.
Second, I wouldn’t dare say ‘god’s word gave me the authority to do this’, and I haven’t.
I rarely argue religious beliefs, nor can I claim Biblical scholarship.
My commitment simply comes from not being able to ignore or dismiss it when someone can’t do what I can safely AND freely at the same time.
For example: those with religious objections to gay people doesn’t get them in serious trouble, like expelled from school or arrested for their expression.
But they support that happening to gay people.
I don’t place the value on what I’m going to do for gay folks, or not-based on what rewards I expect in heaven or not if I’m kept from it.
I base what I’m going to do on who requires long overdue justice, period.
And as far as that goes, ex gays are demanding justice they don’t need.
Their demand for validation is at the expense of someone else, and justice doesn’t work that way.
Especially 21st century social justice.
I was here to learn from your experience and I respect it. I see that the majority of ex gays and their supporters don’t do that.
I was hoping that I did convey the respect I feel.
At first, I didn’t expect the friendship and affectionate messages.
But I thank you for them, just the same.
You prove to me, that I’m on the right side of things…and although not always easy, I like it. Very much.
Thanks again, Regan. Words can’t express my gratitude for your efforts and kindness to us all.
Love,
Randi
I think it is clear from Foster’s response that he thinks the level of violence, beating, and death in the Caribbean is acceptable. He applauds the homophobia and hatred in that society. (“de islands taint havin’ it mon!”)
And as their representative to that part of the world, that is the message that Exodus is sending.
The anti-gay religous activists have for years said “Matthew Shepard isn’t MY fault; Billy Jack Gaither isn’t MY fault; Jeff Whittington isn’t MY fault; Philip Walsted isn’t MY fault; Nicholas West isn’t MY fault; Kevin Hale isn’t MY fault; Scott Amedure isn’t MY fault; Jody Dobrowski isn’t MY fault; Barry Winchell isn’t MY fault; Adam Bishop isn’t MY fault” and the list goes on.
Exodus – consider yourself on notice. If DL Foster goes to Barbados and there is resulting violence against gay people, it’s your fault.
Timothy, did you get a url for Foster’s complaints about you?
yeah, thanks.
boo provided it. I tried doing a search but for some reason wasn’t able to find DL’s blog/rant by googling.
I’d like to have a look too, do you mind providing it?
An amazing friend of mine, Jeff Bernhardt wrote an article recently for the Jewish Journal about his (exodus from silence) coming out, to his family.
He’s a very religious man, has much community respect as a, Jew, writer and humanitarian-and as a gay man.
I was thinking about this ex gay org…and their name Exodus.
Jews were in bondage because they were Jews. If they had denounced their culture, rituals and language, their identity as Jews-that would make them no longer who and what they were.
Not just slaves as well. As they were freed, they were STILL Jews.
But what if the price of their freedom, was that they no longer could be Jews?
There would be no Moses, no writing of the Ten Commandment from Mt. Horab-there would be no Christianity had the Egyptians succeeded in destroying the Jewish identity.
The slavery in terms of gay life, is not TO homosexuality, but to heterosexuals who have no wish to understand the identity of gay people.
Heterosexuals are the majority, just as Egyptians were the majority to the Jews.
They controlled what Jews would do, and glorified themselves at the expense of Jewish life.
It’s heterosexuals who glorify themselves at the expense of gay people.
The don’t see the same human being mirrored back at them when they look at gay people.
They don’t endow gay people with the same talents that they have, but will exploit that talent nonetheless.
So unless gays and lesbians are either in service or entertaining to heterosexuals, they are at risk of the death of themselves or their identity.
Just like any other slave known to man.
So if Exodus wants to use a slave metaphor for being homosexual, they have it ALL WRONG.
Gays are in bondage to heterosexuals who have decided they speak for god and will do his will-
the last refuge for those who wish to justify enslaving someone to their whims. Especially a minority in the midst.
‘God says I have to do it’.
However, free will is a gift to all human beings. Knowing oneself is as well.
And claiming dominion over another human being, well we know that’s wrong, however much Biblical life justified holding slaves.
We don’t justify it now.
And my gay friends say over and over, it’s the coming out that’s freeing. It’s finally being able to be honest and say who you are that feels like the most profound liberation.
Silence and fear….are chains that contain a flightless soul.
And we all, are born to take flight…aren’t we?
Perhaps heterosexuals wouldn’t be what they are, if it weren’t for gay people being what THEY are.
If Exodus is to be believed…let them release gay people from their silence and fear of THEM, and if they really believed in what God intends…THEY wouldn’t be so afraid of letting you go.
Damn! DL didn’t mention me in the blog. I am pissed.
Aaron, Timothy, Boo, or someone, please email me a link to DL’s blog where you find this stuff.
randi.schimnosky@sasktel.net
Randi, it’s earlier up in this thread
https://psimo.blogspot.com/
Hopefully, this is not off-topic (I never know those things), but while at his site, read “Pedophiles and ‘family pride'”.
From his statements, he clearly equates pedophiles and gays, but he never says quite why.
What is really disturbing is equating these three things to the White House Easter Egg Event (with gays):
1. Ramses’ murders of baby boys
2. King Herod’s murders of babys
3. Hitler’s desire to create a new superman race
How he could equate such an innocent event with these three things is very strange.
Thankyou anonymous, I’m not sure how I missed it earlier. I see DL’s up to his usual BS. He can’t argue with me logically on my actual words so he’s got to pretend I said something horrible.
DL, you know you don’t have a leg to stand on when you have to make stuff up to denigrate LGBTs.
Timothy, I know this is going to disappoint DL, but you really are a knight in rainbow armour. I like DL’s excuse “aahh, its only a few murders and beatings, whatcha whining about, its all good Christian stuff.”
Hm. And here I though that the stuff that went on Iran did qualify as homophobia.
Maybe it counts only if it happens in Iran.
Aaron, thanks for pointing out the ugly and irrational comments Foster made in Pedophiles & Family Pride. That kind of slander is outrageous.
I see he pulled the same trick in his response to this post:
How on earth can he construe that Randi was defending paedophiles? The same way he turned Family Pride into paedophiles, I guess!
DL is basically performance art. Usually ugly, occasionally fascinating, one of those guilty time wasters like Springer or cutsey fluff like Hamsterdance.
Aaron- I think the thinking process is that if kids in gay families get too many eggs, Bush will order all kids of gay families slaughtered because they interfered with his plans to breed a new master chicken race.
My favorite DL post is still the one where he crows in triumph at having turned off his blog comments.
Timothy said:
I tried doing a search but for some reason wasn’t able to find DL’s blog/rant by googling.
I also had a difficult time finding it through Google – and I used some specific terms that should have given me an accurate return. I wonder if they have it weighted low because of the hatred factor 😉
Just about the time I forget all about DL, someone calls attention to another incident where he has exposed his posterior for all the world to see. Like a bad accident, I just have to take a quick look and then I am sorry I did.
I have done a rather small and unscientific survey of some members of a couple of what one would call solid, fundamentalist churches in the area We are about an hour away from Exodus and arguably the most conservative county in Florida. Of those who knew about Exodus, most were only vaguely aware of what they are. They knew that their main purpose was opposition to homosexuality (which each of these people considers a sin) and some knew about reparative therapy and the LIA controversy. When I let them read some excerpts of DL’s rantings (and mind you very mild excerpts compared to some), they were completely turned off and I’m sure have reassessed any positive view of Exodus. One even suggested that he (DL) would have more compassion if he had the Lord in his life! That was worth the effort right there.
I don’t find DL too significant because he will always have a limited following. The significance is in the fact that Exodus and PFOX maintain an active relationship with him, and even ask him to represent them. They can’t associate themselves with such absurd viewpoints and then expect even the average fundamentalist Christian in the pews to have a positive opinion of their work, much less the more tolerant ones. I would be willing to bet that the average FOTF listener would be appalled by what comes out of DL’s mouth. At some point, if it hasn’t already, that has to come through in a reduction of funding.
In other words Alan, if you can’t understand why DL is morally repugnant, then at least consider the financial liability he represents.
David
Well, but I suppose that’s probably why he’s representing them somewhere other than stateside…has he ever spoken publicly under the Exodus banner in the U.S.?
Which brings up the point, why exactly are they using him, and not someone else? Is he the only black ex-gay leader? Was race the factor in selecting him to go there?
He’s not exactly a ringing endorsement for the ex-gay movement (he doesn’t even seem to espouse the regular Exodus-type ex-gay methods).
Makes me wonder.
Posted by: Dave Rattigan at April 27, 2006 04:00 AM
Thanks for standing up for me Dave. Even though I try to be prepared for the evil I know DL will spew it hurt a lot anyway. This is the sort of speech Alliance “Defence” Fund wishes to make as an example of cherished, free, and religious. I have a rough idea of the law and maybe it is slander. Would that I had the money of an Alan Sears to fight this out in court. I’d love to see DL try to defend his statements and at the same time have the opportunity to defend mine. All in a controlled environment where I get equal time and DL is bound by the bible to answer substantively and honestly. Now that would be heaven.
I can see what’s going on with DL. He is mentally ill and he hates gays because he so hates his own same sex attraction that’s so hard to supress. I’ve been there. When I was young I was in that situation and I motivated myself to think of gays in the most despicable hateful terms in order to suppress my attraction to men. It wouldn’t have taken much to cross the line into violence and that’s what I see in DL. Hopefully he sees a solid moral barrier between verbally and physically attacking LGBTs, unfortunately I don’t think I’ve ever seen him specifically affirm that boundary and his poo-pooing the tip of the iceberg of hatred and violence in the Carribean doesn’t encourage me either.
DL, please look into Risperidone. Are you going to spend your whole life fearing and hating your same sex attractions so much that the line between verbal and physical violence is a dangerous blur? That’s going to take a terrible toll on you over time DL. Its in your best interests and society’s if you learn to accept that which you cannot help but feel. Many many Christians are honestly convinced the bible does not say there is anything wrong with a loving monogamous same sex relationship. You know Jesus never spoke against gays in any way. How about you at least follow his example, surely that’s not to much to ask of anyone who calls themselves’ Christian. You already know you can’t argue against a morality based on fairness and equality.
I just read an article on DL Foster in the NationNews (Barbados): From gay to god. This man appears to be a mass of contradictions. He claims to have experienced homosexual attraction at an early age, yet he claims it is a choice that homosexuals make. So did he choose that homosexual attraction at that young age.
And what is with the hating women that he claims? What does that have to do with being gay? Hell, about half the time I was in my 20s I wanted to be a woman.
And “when he had pursued all the sexual partners he wanted to pursue, that he felt an overwhelming dissatisfaction with his life.” In other words he had no self respect and needed to change. And also “the transformation from homosexual to heterosexual didn’t happen overnight, however. It took time to resolve all the anger and emotions and the relationship issues he was carrying on the inside.” But DL…. I thought it was nothing but a mere choice?
So many contradictions seemingly point to either a made-up story, or a man who is deeply confused.